The Odyssey Episode

Introduction to the episode

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Discussing the Odyssey film

1:37Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of iHeartRadio. Hey, and welcome to the Epic Cast. This is Josh. There's Chuck. Jerry's here, too. We're all wearing breastplates. And that means this is Stuff You Should Know. To protect our chest. Yes, I'm also wearing a cod piece, but that's not unusual for me. To protect your cod. I know. Why is it called that? The fish of the day.

2:08What if you dated somebody who referred to that as your cod?

2:14Wouldn't you be like, please stop calling it that? Yeah. It's like, do you mind giving me some privacy? I'm in here washing my cod. Right. They would say, I'm sorry, I majored in the Canterbury Tales. What a weird way to start the Odyssey. I know. I know. And you're the one who wrote those lines, so. I know. That's true. Yeah, we're talking about the Odyssey. You saw the Odyssey and you were like, how's the Odyssey work? And here we are, right? Yeah. You know, I saw the movie. I thought it was really good. I am no Christopher Nolan fanboy. I'm about 50-50 with him. Maybe 60-40 with ones I like.

2:52Which ones do you like? Aside from Memento, obviously. Well, I liked Memento. I liked the Prestige. I liked the Batman movies. Yeah. Didn't love, I mean, Oppenheimer was quote-unquote good, I guess, but it was a bit of a slog for me and I never wanted to see it again. I could see that. I think you and I had the same problems with Interstellar. Yeah.

3:14I did not see Tenet because I heard it was so bad. So, yeah, he sort of hit or miss for me. But I really thought the Odyssey was great and it kind of hit me after I saw it. I was like, it's kind of just crazy, this idea that this story that's this old, like one of the oldest stories, like can still resonate with an audience in 2026. And like, what is it about that story itself? And I knew nothing about just the Odyssey as a literary piece. And I didn't know much about Homer.

3:44Like, I was an English major, but we didn't, I guess I didn't do the classes where we studied this stuff. Well, in your defense, it was written in Ionic, not English, so. Yeah, good point. So, yeah, I can totally see where you're coming from. The story has legs, I guess, is how you'd put it. Yeah, it's just kind of fascinating to me as a piece of work. For sure. And let's talk about this piece of work because there's a lot to talk about, not just recounting the highlights of the story and spoiling the movie, I guess, for anybody who hasn't paid attention over the last, like, 2,000-something years.

4:21Yeah, if you can't spoil something written in the 8th century, then I'm just sorry. Yeah, yeah.

Homer and ancient oral tradition

4:30So, about almost 3,000 years ago, the 700s BCE, right? That's where they think Homer first put this to paper. But the whole thing, and it's attributed to the Greek poet Homer, who I guess has sort of been post-Bronze Age, like after the Bronze Age collapse, I think, is when Homer was walking around, if Homer was even walking around, we'll talk about in a second. But they attribute both the Odyssey and the Iliad, which is kind of the prequel to the Odyssey, to Homer.

5:08And they think that it was first written down, like I said, in the 700s, the 8th century BCE. But it was probably around way longer than that because the whole thing is set up as a form of oral storytelling. Yeah, I mean, you know, just, you mentioned quickly that it was sort of a sequel, or the Iliad was a, did you say prequel? You bet I did. Well, the Odyssey is 24 books, one book for each letter of the Greek alphabet, but the Iliad that you were talking about talks about Agamemnon's return from the Trojan War, and then the Odyssey basically covers Odysseus, his return from the very long-delayed return from the Trojan War.

5:53And what was your question that you asked before I sidetracked us? Do you remember? I asked you what Christopher Nolan movies you liked. Yes, you said that right before. That's the last question I remember asking you. Oh, that's okay. But I think I know what you said, something about it being an oral tradition that was much older, right? Yeah, yeah. I must have said right. That's right. That was my question. Am I right? I can't believe how good we are at this, 18 years in.

6:2518 years in. It astounds me sometimes. Masters. I know. It's almost like we're both sleepwalking right now. No, no, no. Not sleepwalking. On the phone. So, we don't know how closely the Odyssey, you know, resembles the story that Homer told in 700s, because you were right. It was an oral story. It was an oral tradition. And it was supposed to be told by memorizing it and retelling it by, you know, from bards telling the story to people in a crowd, maybe changing a thing or two.

6:57You know, the idea is that we, it's pretty likely that this thing was a little bit like a game of telephone, right? But, yeah, you know, like as you learned it and you passed it on, you could kind of embellish it in this way. You're like, I don't really care that much about the siren, so I'm not going to give them as much play as maybe the guy who taught you how to say this did. And that it really started to take its final shape, again, when it was finally put to papyrus. I want to say pen to paper, but probably quill to papyrus is how it was first done, right?

7:32I love that. That's when it really kind of started to take a solid form because now it was like, now you just basically copied it, right? You didn't have to memorize it or anything like that. But it was far from the only like legend or tale of like Greek culture and Greek heroics and like Greek moral lessons and all that, right? But it was just for some reason that I don't think anyone's really put their finger on. It just has resonated throughout the years. So it's the one that we tend to think of when we think of this whole stuff.

8:05But it was a cornerstone of Greek culture. Like this is just part of your indoctrination into growing up in ancient Greek culture. You knew the Iliad among other things or the Odyssey, probably the Iliad too. Among other things, you'd at least heard it probably more than once. And then finally Plato comes along and he's like, this is all rubbish. We need to start using our noodles. So he tried to actually ban the Odyssey and it didn't take because people love it that much. That's right. It lived on. You mentioned it was an Ionic Greek, which is an Asiatic dialect.

8:39And it's been gone for more than 2,000 years. So if you're wondering how we got to the point where Christopher Nolan is working on a screenplay adapted from a 21st century novelized version, I guess. It's sort of a winding road.

Translations and poetic meter

8:55The first print copy came around in 1488 and it was produced in Italy in that Ionic Greek. And then I guess about 100 years later or so, or at least in the next century, it was finally translated to some European languages, some actual living languages. And then in 1616, we got our first English translation of this epic poem from a British poet named George Chapman. That's a pretty British name if I've ever heard one.

9:27Yeah, for sure. So, yeah, so then now it starts to come into our our awareness, our understanding. And, you know, him translating it and then other people translating it from the original. You know, we talked a little bit about just the original oral translations. But when you finally get to like written translations, it also took a bit of a winding road, obviously. Yeah, because the thing was written originally or created originally to be spoken. And it actually follows a specific meter, like the rhythm that you're supposed to say it in.

9:58It's called homeric hexameter or dactylic hexameter I've also seen. And it's where you there are six in each line. There's six three syllable units. And in the three in these three syllable units, these dactyls, the first syllable is stressed and then the next two are not stressed. So it's like, hi, how are you doing today? Guy. Right. Do you have to sing it? I actually I saw somebody a video of somebody not only reading in English, but reading it in Ionic.

10:34Oh, wow. Yeah. And I couldn't tell any difference from somebody just reading it normally. But that's not something that literally translates very well into other languages, including English. So these the translators basically had to make some some big decisions, essentially. Yeah. I mean, it's almost like translating the Bible, you know, through the various translations of the Bible over the years. There was, you know, each time someone's doing that, there are writers that are doing that. So each version is going to be a little bit different. Right.

11:05You know, a language, especially, you know, in the case of a poem, it's going to have a unique rhythm. But people's native tongue have unique rhythms as well. And just where they're from, there are unique cultural experiences that happen. Some of these translate better than others, I guess. Yeah. And so, you know, you're really, you know, you're not rewriting in like, I don't think people made up like a ton of stuff out of whole cloth, but making it relevant for the audience that they're writing it for, which would have been in their language for the people in their country because they wanted them to get something out of it.

11:41So, yes. Yeah. Most translators have ignored the, there's a joke in one of the books about laying with a goat, and it just does not translate well into modern times. That's right. Got to leave that one behind. And the other thing is, you know, there's a few things here. You're translating from a dead language, which is a big deal. We already mentioned that they were things meant to be spoken aloud to something read, which is going to change it. And then it's just something that's just thousands of years old that you have to make sense. So it's a hard job.

12:12Right. It's a hard knock life for translators of the Odyssey. That's right. That's what Annie said. So there, there were some, there's some like standout, um, translations over the years, but the one that everyone's talking about right now is, um, from Emily Wilson. Uh, and she, I think did hers in 2017, 2017 is how most people say that. Right. And, um, she basically, uh, she turned it into English heroic couplets, which is basically a, a, a tea drinking way of saying like,

12:48exactly the, the kind of rhyming pairs that you hear in any modern song. Yeah. And this is the one that Christopher Nolan used specifically to adapt his version of the story on screen.

The Homeric question and authorship

13:00Mm-hmm.

The Homeric question and authorship

13:01Um, I think we should probably talk a little bit about the Homeric question because you, you teased earlier the, uh, if Homer was really a person and that it's sort of one of these things where, you know, we don't have any hard facts when it comes to Homer, like everything that we know, um, historians, literary historians have surmised from reading the text. Like, well, is it's written in this language. So he's probably from this place that spoke that language, like stuff that makes sense though. Yeah. No, there's plenty of stuff that, that makes sense.

13:33It's, it's more just like a question of like, um, did he actually exist if he was, uh, a bard, if he was a group of people, it's very similar to the, um, Shakespeare question too. For sure. We did an episode on, but there, I mean, just even though everything is a guess that we've kind of compiled from Homer strictly from, uh, I guess his own writing. I don't think he's referenced in any other like historical text or anything like that. It's just the stuff he's writing about just kind of lines up and they think that he was probably from Ionia, which is along the West coast of Turkey today, because the whole thing was written in Ionic.

14:14And, um, he almost certainly lived during this age that they attributed to. And they also are like, it's possible that he might be a known historic blind bard named, uh, Democ, Demoticus, Demoticus. Yeah. That's the hardest one I think out of this whole, whole article. Yeah. I mean, that's a, uh, that's a character in the Odyssey that like a lot of space is devoted to. So I think there are people who are like, I wonder if this is just a stand in for him because boy, there's a lot of stuff in there about this, you know,

14:49a minor character. Right. He's like, and let me sing the praises about Demoticus is cod. Yeah. There's just verse after verse about that. A lot of stuff.

Core themes of Xenia and Nostos

14:59Uh, so I also think we should talk before we break about, um, sort of a central concept because in act two, everybody, we're going to give you the cliff's notes version of the Odyssey. Yeah. It's very exciting. I'm very excited. But we should, uh, a little bit more before we get into that is sort of conceptually what the Odyssey was about in a lot of ways was, uh, homecoming and hospitality, uh, which are Nostos and Zinnia and ancient Greece.

15:30And these two things were like really big deals in ancient Greece that figured heavily in like their life and culture. Yeah. They're not only, um, like things that you should do to be like a good host. There are actual like rules that you have to follow. And if you don't, you're actually upsetting Zeus because this is Zeus, the king of the gods, that a real God's God, if you ask other gods, um, this is his divine law that he's passed down. That's how important these, these rules for treating guests are.

16:01So, yeah, that, uh, Zinnia is, uh, is a big deal. And the rules specifically are, if you, um, happen to, you know, to hop through town and you knock on a stranger's door, they're supposed to say, come on in. Yeah. I don't need to know anything. Here's some food. Here's some wine. Why don't you go? I'll draw you a hot bath. Sure. And then we'll get to why you're here. Uh, and also while you're doing this stuff, like maybe while you're in the bathtub, I'm going to stand sentry out front with my sword and make sure you stay nice and safe. Yeah.

16:31You have to guarantee their protection while they're staying at your home. Yeah. Like a, a heaping helping of hospitality is what you're supposed to offer a stranger, according to Zinnia, right? For sure. That figures in so much to the story that essentially entire groups and individuals are characterized by how they treat strangers, how they act as guests, um, how they act as hosts. Like this is a really important thread that goes through all of the Odyssey.

17:02That's Zinnia. Then there's also Nostos, right? Yeah. Homecoming. I mean, that's basically what the Odyssey is. It's about somebody coming home. Uh, and this was a very big deal in Greek society because they were seafarers. They were, um, adventurers and wanderers by sea. And so they would go out a lot and coming home was a big deal. They would be separated from their family. They would have these brutal, um, you know, sea journeys. And so coming home was a very big deal. And so it's no surprise that these two sort of prominent things that figure in Greek culture and society at the time were sort of the two big themes of the Odyssey.

17:39Right. Right. If you're in high school and you have a crush on somebody who likes to read the classics, just go up to them and say, would you like to go to Nostos with me? And they will, they'll be putty in your hand after that. That's great. I started Moby Dick, by the way, just so everyone knows it's officially happening. Awesome. How's it going so far? Well, I read, I read chapter one and then I watched that, you know, I mentioned the Rob Delaney podcast that he's doing with the professor.

18:10And so I'm going to do that like in lockstep. So I did that and then I watched their chapter one recap and it's helping a lot. I like it so far. That's awesome. Uh, keep us, keep us posted. Will you? I will. So far so good. Okay. Uh, so that was, uh, I think we covered Xenia and Nostros pretty well. And that's probably a pretty good place to break, right? Yeah. And, uh, everyone hold on your hats because act two, we're going to go over these, uh, books of the Odyssey. Woo.

18:41Warning.

18:57The following song has been rated dangerously catchy and may not be suitable for grownups. One, two, three, four. One, two, three, four. Knock, knock, knock and at the door. Knock, knock, knock, knock and at the door. Five, six, who is it? Five, six, who is it? It's Callie and Elliot. It's Callie and Elliot. Lingo Kids. Only suitable for kids. If it gets stuck in mom's head, that's not our problem. Lingo Kids! Everything kids love. Download now for free. Hey, everybody.

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22:50All right, I'm back with Josh. He's screwed his head back onto his body.

23:09Cartoon style. And if you don't know what Chuck's referring to, that means we edited that thing out.

The journey home and early books

23:14Oh, perhaps. You never know. But we're going to kind of do, like I said, the CliffsNotes version of the Odyssey. Spoilers will abound. If you haven't seen the film and you really don't want to know anything about it, then don't listen to this chapter. But, you know, I think it might help going in to know a little bit about the story if you really don't know anything. And I'll also point out the actors who feature and who they play. How's that? I think that's great. Can you also do their voices, maybe? No, I can't do any of those voices.

23:45You can do a great Matt Damon. How about them apples? There you go. Exactly. That actually sounded like Matthew McConaughey trying to do a Matt Damon. It sort of did. All right. So let's get started, Chuck. We start with book one. And actually, this kind of covers books one through four. Yeah. And we find, we start, the Trojan War has ended 10 years before. And the Trojan War itself has taken 10 years. So it's been 20 years since our hero, literally the hero of the story, Odysseus.

24:17Matt Damon. Yes. Which I'm not, I'm not crazy about that casting. I'm sorry. I think there's a lot of people upset about this casting. Yes. Not him, like all kinds of the casting. I know. Everybody's like, Matt Damon's fine. So he's been gone for 20 years. And from what I understand, like this was initially considered a fairly quick errand. The Trojan War started because Paris stole Helen of Troy. And now the, I think everybody kind of set out to get her back.

24:48And it turned into this 10-year Trojan War. That's right. Helen of Troy is played by Lupita Nyong'o in this film. And Elon Musk is so mad about that. He's going to make his own AI version that he thinks is more historically accurate. That's what he said. I haven't heard about that. I'm waiting for its IPO. I'm sure it's going to be great. So Matt Damon is Odysseus. He's been gone for those 20 years, like you said. He has a wife named Penelope, played by Anne Hathaway in this film. And he has a son called Telemachus, who's played by Tom Holland, who you might know more as Spider-Man.

25:27All right. So where we pick up with them, they are living in their big house, their mini mansion. And there are a hundred suitors vying for Odysseus' throne and the hand of Penelope to Mary. The most villainous in the film, at least, is Antinous, played by Robert Pattinson. I'll bet he does a great job. He's great. The acting is really, really good in this entire film. But these guys are all living there, kind of really have made themselves at home, let's just say, and not keeping up their end of the Xenia bargain, which is, I don't even know if we mentioned, as a guest, you're also supposed to be awesome in return.

26:06And these guys are not. We left that out. It's not just incumbent on the host. That's right. So, yeah, they're being pretty terrible. And one of the main things they're doing as suitors, this whole hundred of them who've taken over Odysseus' home, they're, like, really pressing Penelope to be like, your husband's dead. It's been 20 years. You need to choose a husband to sit on the throne next to you and become king of Ithaca. Who are you going to choose? And she keeps hemming and hawing, hemming literally, because she says that when she finishes the funeral shroud that she's weaving for Odysseus' elderly father, Gary, she will make this decision, right?

26:48And then every night after she has woven all day, she goes and undoes the weaving that she did that day so that she will never finish. And this, I guess, the suitors are all idiots, and it's working quite well because they still haven't caught on, I guess. You know, sometimes when we get emails that are like, I can't believe Josh said that Odysseus' father's name was Gary. Didn't he read it or do his research? I wonder if people even know you. I do, too.

27:19After 18 years, you know. So barren, desert, dry. Anyway, like, get with it, people. He knows it's not Gary. Chuck, I love how well you know me. Thanks, man. I mean, you still fool me, so I guess I shouldn't throw stones. I want to take issue with that. There's probably 98% of the time you're just, like, moving on. Not that you don't think it's funny. Not that you don't get it. You're just like, we're burning up time here.

27:52That's enough of your shenanigans. I'm just going to let that sit. All right. Thanks, Gary. So Penelope and Telemachus are, you know, it's been 20 years. So they're also losing hope that dad and husband are gone. Sure. Like, for good. So Athena, played by Zendaya in the film, the goddess of wisdom and warfare, she's on Odysseus' side this whole time. She's like, hey, kid, why don't you go out and, like, actually do something and see if you can find out if your dad's alive?

28:24That'd be a good start. Is, uh, I'm guessing, uh, Zendaya does a great job, or Zendaya. Is it Zendaya? Yeah, she's awesome. She's a really good actor, I think, in everything. I read recently that people thought of her as, like, a Nepo baby or something like that. I don't know where that's coming from, and I think she's really good at everything I've ever seen her in. Who are her parents? Are they famous? I don't know. I don't know. I'll have to go back and double-check that, but I saw somebody reference it, and I'm like, I don't know what you're talking about. She's great. Yeah, she's great, and she was also in Spider-Man, the movies, so it's a reunion of sorts.

28:56Yes, and, uh, Benny, I can't remember, he's one of the creators of Uncut Gems. Benny Safdie. Yes, he's in this movie, and he directed Robert Pattinson in Good Time. That's right. He plays, uh, Benny Safdie plays Agamemnon. Yeah. Man, look at all this. Yeah. Go ahead, though. I'm sorry for sidetracking us so badly. Oh, that's okay. So, um, she says, why don't you go out and see if your dad's still alive? Uh, he goes and meets with, uh, John Bernthal from The Walking Dead, who plays King Menelaus in Sparta, and from him learns, hey, your dad's alive, he's sort of being held captive, but in the best way he can be held captive on Calypso's Island.

29:38And that's where book five picks up. Right. Calypso is a nymph, a goddess nymph, who has basically turned Odysseus into a sex toy after he washed up on her island after a shipwreck, which we'll come to later. That's another cool thing about the Odyssey. It's not completely linear. It actually spins around. There's different, like, this entire part we're talking about is a flashback, as we'll see. Yeah, this starting with book five, yeah. Yes, um, thank you.

30:10Uh, and so Calypso falls in love with Odysseus, and, uh, she's like, don't forget, I'm a goddess nymph, not just a nymph, so I can make you stay here. And she does. She holds him captive there for, I think, something like seven years. And then finally, Athena, who has really chosen Odysseus as, like, one of her favorite humans and really intervenes on his behalf throughout this whole, um, I guess, Odyssey. Uh, she goes to Zeus and is like, you gotta get this guy out of Calypso's clutches.

30:42And Zeus is like, sure, I'll, I'll see what I can do. That's right. Um, Calypso, by the way, is played by Charlize Theron. So, uh, again, he was being held captive as a sex slave for seven years to Charlize Theron. Mm-hmm. And still wants to leave. Right. He's, he's like, my God, it's exhausted.

31:03Uh, so he has resumed his journey home to Ithaca. He leaves on a raft. Um, Poseidon, Poseidon is a real jerk throughout this whole story. Really doesn't like Odysseus, so he destroys. Who plays Poseidon? No one plays Zeus or Poseidon in this. Oh, are they CGI? No, no, no. They, they, he, bite your tongue. He uses, uh, very little CGI. Yeah, I heard it's all practical effects, but I don't understand what you mean. They're just off screen? They're not in the movie, like, uh, at all. Okay, they're just referenced. Yeah, exactly. Like, Poseidon really did me dirty.

31:35Yeah. Okay. So he, Poseidon wrecks the raft, uh, as punishment because he blinded his son, which was a Cyclops. And we'll, we'll get to that in a minute because that's coming, uh, by way of flashback, uh, a little bit later. And Odysseus is shipwrecked once again and taken in by the, I guess, the Phacians. And they are showing some serious xenia. They are like great hosts to him, uh, say, come on into the royal court. Here's everything you need in the way of food and wine and protection.

32:08Right. And the reason we said that book five starts as a flashback because Odysseus is being really well taken care of by the Phacians. And the Phacian king, I guess one night while they're feasting, says, hey man, tell us your story. What's, what's going on with you, buddy? And Odysseus basically tells the story of the Odyssey, everything he's been through up to that point. And, um, this is kind of, uh, I mean, this is the part where everybody's like, when they talk about the Odyssey, this is the stuff they're talking about.

32:40Where he's recounting his adventures in flashback to the Phacians.

Flashback adventures with the Cyclops and Circe

32:45That's right.

Flashback adventures with the Cyclops and Circe

32:46And this is the real flashback, I guess. I mean, we sort of misspoke earlier, but I think everyone gets it, right? Sure. Okay, great. This is the part where Matt Damon goes. So as soon as Odysseus, uh, leaves with his big fleet of ships, there are about 600 soldiers. They're all headed home from, uh, the, the war at Troy. Once again, um, Athena sends some storms that way, beer, the ships off course. Uh, Athena is mad at this point about war crimes that they committed, um, in the battles when they conquered Troy.

33:18Yeah. And they landed the, uh, initially at the land of the Lotus eaters, um, which are, you know, they're eating Lotus. So they're very blissful and, you know, they're basically sort of doing drugs. Yeah. And Odysseus's crew is like, this place is awesome. Can we stay here? Yeah. I was curious what that's an allegory for what drug or whatever, you know? I mean, I guess it was Lotus at the time, right? I guess, but I've tried Lotus and it doesn't get you messed up. Okay. But yes, this is what these people were doing.

33:50And Odysseus's crew is like, I'm not sure we need to keep going back home. Like, this is pretty great. These lotuses are amazing. The Lotus eaters are great people. Let's just stay here. And Odysseus has to drag every single one of his men, all 600 of them back to their ships where he ties them up until he finally gets the last one. And he's able to set sail again from the land of the Lotus eaters. That is far and away the best experience that these guys have on the Odyssey as a whole.

34:21Because the next thing that happens to them is actually the turning point that really brings on everything else. All of their misfortune, they seem to have started. And then Odysseus really drives it home on the island of the Cyclops. That's right. Obviously, one-eyed beasts, cannibalistic even. And they end up trapped in a cave there. We mentioned Poseidon's son as a Cyclops. That's Polyphemus. And he's just eating these guys.

34:52If you see the movie, this is an actual puppet. It is not CGI, which is incredible. Oh, really? Because it looks amazing, yeah. I'll bet. And Odysseus blinds Polyphemus to get everyone out of there, out of the cave. And they are able to flee the Cyclops and then suffer another attack by a tribe of giant cannibals called... The Lestrigonians. Yeah, nice work. So, I just want to go back to... Is it Polyphemus or Polyphemus?

35:26I would say Polyphemus. Okay. So, like you said, he's the son of Poseidon. I read that Odysseus and his men came onto the island of the Cyclops and just started eating all of Polyphemus' sheep. And basically made terrible guests of themselves. Is that not correct? Well, I don't know if that's in the movie. I can't remember. Okay. But either way... I read that it wasn't just completely one-sided, that Polyphemus was wronged first. At any rate, after they escaped the Lestrigonians, which is another tribe of giants, but I believe they're more human-like, right?

36:04They're not in the movie either. Okay. Everything I know about the Odyssey, I know from a little research and then seeing that movie. Okay, gotcha. So, in the book, the Lestrigonians, they come right after the Cyclops. And they're another tribe of giant cannibals. But from what I saw, they're more human-like. They're like soldiers, but giant. They eat a bunch of guys. And after that, there's the shipwreck. And the reason why there's the shipwreck is because Polyphemus, son of Poseidon, prays to his father and says,

36:35please mess Odysseus' junk up. That's right. And so, they end up on the island of Circe, who is a goddess, sort of enchantress, sort of portrayed, like, sort of witch-like. Yeah. And she falls in love with Odysseus. She turns the guys, his dudes, into pigs. And Odysseus gets a little help from the gods and forces her to turn them back into men so they can get on with stuff. Yeah, I read that that was, like, the coolest, most disturbing scene in the whole movie.

37:06Is that right? I mean, I don't know. It was great. Okay. So, Odysseus ends up getting kind of hooked up by Circe, who basically says, head on to the land of the dead, because you're going to get a lot of important, valuable information there. He meets Agamemnon there, who was killed in the Iliad. And he meets his mom there, which is nice. And then, most importantly, he meets Tiresias, who is a prophet of Apollo, who, as a side note, became a woman for seven years, which is kind of interesting.

37:39And then, Tiresias basically says, you really need to make an offer to Poseidon, some sort of sacrifice or something, because he's really mad that you blinded Polyphemus, his son, the Cyclops. And one other thing, and this is very important, do not let anyone eat the sun god's sacred cattle on the island of Helios. You're going to end up on Helios, by the way. I'm a prophet, so I know. Yeah, so he says, all right, check, do not eat sacred cattle.

38:09Got it. So before going on to Ithaca, Odysseus goes back to Circe's Island. She's like, I'm going to hook you up even further, hear some beeswax, because you're not going to want to hear that siren song. Sure. Protect all your guys. You need to steer towards Scylla, because as we'll see, there's a very narrow sort of passage that's very fraught. Yeah. And she says, go towards Scylla and not Charybdis, because that's the bad way. And also, by the way, I don't know if anyone's mentioned this, but man, do not eat any of that guy's cattle.

38:43So now, the second person to mention this, which suggests strongly that they are definitely going to eat the cattle.

Sirens, Scylla, and Charybdis

38:51Yeah, for sure. So after leaving Circe's Island and setting sail, remember, every time they set sail, they're going toward home, toward Ithaca. And they just keep getting delayed and shipwrecked, and Poseidon's really messing with them, as per Polyphemus' request. The next challenge that they go to is the sirens, which is why Circe's, like you said, gave Odysseus earwax. And Odysseus is like, I got to see what all this is about. So he gives the earwax to all of his men and says, lash me to the mast.

39:24And I want to hear it, but no matter what I say, while I'm under the spell of the siren song, do not untie me. And apparently, it works out pretty great. Yeah, he makes it through that. They all survive. And then they reach that strait that Circe had warned them about, which has monsters on both sides. That's Scylla and Charybdis. On the Scylla side, you've got a six-headed beast who is going to eat you. On the Charybdis side, you're going to encounter some massive whirlpools that will destroy your ship like it's going down a toilet.

40:01And so Odysseus is like, all right, she said to steer, to avoid that whirlpool and steer toward that monster, towards Scylla. And they do that, and the monster eats a lot of those guys. But Odysseus managed to escape with all but, I think, like six guys that get eaten. Right, which is a pretty good trade-off. It's like a utilitarian lesser of two evils, right? Lose the whole ship to the whirlpool or lose six guys to Scylla. It's a pretty smart move, honestly. And if you're like, wow, he really didn't have a good option, that's because caught between Scylla and Charybdis is the original version of caught between a rock and a hard place.

40:37That's where that came from. That's right. So they eventually land at Helios. The sacred cattle are everywhere. They've gotten the two warnings by now. And, of course, like Josh said, Odysseus' men eat that cattle pretty quickly, and more divine punishment is wrought upon them. And Zeus, because Helios is like, you've got to do something here, Zeus. Zeus destroys the ship when it departs the island. And at this point now, Odysseus is the only one still living, and he washes ashore to meet Calypso, and that is where the flashback ends.

41:12Right. And then, so let's go take a break, and we're going to come back and wrap up the Odyssey and talk a little more about what it means for everybody. All right. We'll be right back. Warning, the following song has been rated dangerously catchy and may not be suitable for grown-ups.

41:44One, two, three, four. One, two, three, four. Knock, knock, knockin' at the door. Knock, knock, knockin' at the door. Five, six, who is it? Five, six, who is it? It's Caly and Elliot. It's Caly and Elliot. Lingo Kids, only suitable for kids. If it gets stuck in mom's head, that's not our problem. Lingo Kids! Everything kids love. Download now for free.

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42:43Yeah, so naturally, YouTube is one of the first places someone might use for training tips. Everything from stopping barking and jumping to getting maybe a little bit better at walking on a leash. But what about dog nutrition, too? You've got to know about that these days, and there's an endless world of videos about dog nutrition on YouTube Premium. What foods are actually safe? Is homemade dog food a good idea? Yeah, I mean, look at this one right here. This is veterinarian approved, and look at this lady. Her name is Dr. Wolf. Are you kidding me? So YouTube has a ton of creators, not just Dr. Wolf, who can help you learn a lot more and make everyday pet parent decisions feel a little less overwhelming.

43:19Yeah, I mean, that's where YouTube Premium really comes in. It takes something you already love, which is YouTube, and makes it even better because you get an enhanced, supercharged YouTube experience. It's got benefits that make it easier to enjoy the content and creators that you're into whenever and wherever you need them. Well, and now here we are watching guilty dog videos, which is my guilty pleasure. Look at these guys. Yeah, I know. I feel guilty watching them, but you just can't look away. It's too adorable and sad. I know. Poor buddies. And since YouTube Premium has ad-free viewing, we can watch guilty dog videos uninterrupted.

43:50Plus, background play means we can keep listening to those poor guilty dogs with our screen locked, which is pretty handy when you're walking the dog, right? That's right. And with offline downloads, you can save videos ahead of time, which is awesome, and access them even when you don't have Wi-Fi. So, if you like YouTube, you'll love Premium. Whether you're figuring out the latest weird dog behavior or looking for something useful for your next walk or maybe just indulging in your guilty pleasure, guilty dog videos, YouTube Premium makes the whole experience more seamless. Sign up now for your free trial. Terms and conditions apply.

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The homecoming and battle with suitors

45:32Find yours. Okay, Chuck, now we're at book 12. The last 12 books are about his homecoming, his Nostos, which shares the root with nostalgia. And like you said, the Facians are excellent hosts, so they get him directly to Ithaca, finally get him home.

46:04But his homecoming is not just him showing up and everything's great. Like, his kingdom has fallen to shreds in the 20 years that he's been gone. Penelope's been doing everything she can to hold it all together, but she can only do so much. So he's got to disguise himself, which he does as a beggar, to kind of get the lay of the land to figure out how to put things right again. That's right. So in disguise, only his old dog and his childhood nurse, played by John Leguizamo, recognize him.

46:35But, you know, he doesn't sell him out. He keeps it a secret. And he is being mistreated at the palace by the suitors, of course, who I think we've established are big jerks.

46:46Telemachus returns from his journey, and he's like, all right, this is my son. He's a grown-up Spider-Man now, and when I left him, he was just a little kid. And so I got to, like, at least meet this guy and reveal myself to him. And he does that. So he reveals himself to his son, at least. He does. And his son's like, great. Let's figure out how to get the house back, right, and your kingdom and everything. So they get together and start planning how to get everything back. And meanwhile, Penelope's finally like, okay, my husband is dead, and I'm going to hold a contest for all of you suitors.

47:26Whoever can shoot an arrow through 12 axe heads in a row, which only Odysseus has been able to do, whoever can do that, I will marry. And so they hold a contest, or she does, and every single one of the hundred suitors misses. Can't do it. Then Odysseus is the beggar, is like, can I have my try? And she allows it, and he successfully shoots the arrow through the 12 axe heads, and she knows that that's Odysseus. But she still has a test for him. That's right. Well, before that, though, the big part of that is being able to string that bow, because apparently it's just some bow that's so powerful that no one has ever been able to even string it.

48:07Wow. So Odysseus, of course, once he strings that thing, everyone's like, oh, is that the dude? Okay. And then the shooting the arrow through is almost like the cherry on top. Gotcha. Okay. Yeah. And then, of course, the suitors are like, well, if they suspect who he is, or now they know who he is, a huge battle takes place with Odysseus and Telemachus. Vanquishing is probably the best word for it. All hundred suitors, right? And I'm sure it's very satisfying to see them all get their due. Yeah, they get their due. And after the battle, Penelope, who is at this point, she's like, I think that might be my guy.

48:43Like, first of all, he looks just like him. Right. And second of all, he could string that bow and no one else could. And then he made that shot. So it's just one of those things where you have to suspend disbelief a little bit. It's an ancient text. You know, because you would think as soon as her husband walks through the door, he'd be like, honey, I'm home. And she's like, oh, my God, it's you. Sure. But she suspects that it's him and confirms it in this way. In front of Odysseus, she's asked for a servant to move their marital bed. Like, hey, can you move this over here?

49:13I'm doing a little redecorating. And Odysseus knows he was like, you can't move that thing. I carved that bed from a still live olive tree. So that thing is still like literally rooted to the ground. And I know that it can't be moved. And she's like, it is him. Yeah. And so they get back together. It's very sweet. I'm sure.

49:34Their Telemachus is there. Everything's going really great. Then a civil war breaks out among the suitors families who many of them are ready to avenge the death of their family members. And before things can get really out of hand, Athena, who's also the goddess of war, in addition to wisdom, steps in and says, stop this war. That's enough war for now. And everybody lays down their arms. And Odysseus is finally home. And things are back to normal. It's like the end of a Brady Bunch episode.

50:04Everything's just back to normal. That's right. Except Cousin Oliver's there. So everyone's kind of wondering where he came from.

Historical context and modern adaptations

50:11So we should probably talk a little bit more about just the history because I wondered after I saw it, because, again, I hadn't studied this, so I didn't know a lot about it. I was like, I mean, what about like, was any of this true? Was there a sort of stand in for Odysseus? And was there even a Trojan war and all this stuff? And it turns out, like, probably not, right? Well, they do think that there is probably a Trojan war. They do think that they've kind of identified Troy. It's a town that's called Hizarlik.

50:44There's a mountain nearby called that Hizarlik. And they're like, we're pretty sure this is the actual Troy that was originally discovered in the 19th century by Heinrich Schliemann. And it shows evidence of having been burned and rebuilt time after time after time. But there's one lever or layer, layer seven, that they're like, this coincides with Homer's time. And they found some things like they found a pile of rocks that they think is slingshot ammunition outside of the city. And they're like, evidence of war.

51:15So their historians seem to think that this is probably Troy. And it conceivably gives some some backup to the idea that there was a Trojan war and it did take place during Homer's time. So, right. Whether or not there was a Trojan horse, there had been some archaeological finds that were pre-Odyssey that depicted men climbing out of a giant wheeled horse. So you might think like, boom, of course there was. But a lot of people think it was probably like symbolic or maybe a metaphor that Homer adapted.

51:48There are definitely routes and paths that they sail that are, you know, historically accurate throughout the Mediterranean Sea. Right. Although they don't know like the exact path and if that's like a real thing. But they think that a lot of the stuff like the monsters may be, again, symbolic about seafaring things that you had to navigate around basically. Like Scylla and Charybdis are the opposing currents of the Strait of Messina or the sirens or maybe the shoals along the Mediterranean that are dangerous.

52:23Right. Somebody pointed to Mount Etna on Sicily as the cyclops, one-eyed cyclops, which was really destructive. Sure, it does. Seems like a stretch to me. But the idea that these are metaphors for navigating conditions that you have to look out for makes a lot of sense because these stories were told by seafaring people. So that definitely holds a lot of weight for sure. Yeah. So my initial question is like, why is this thing still interesting to people?

52:53And it's, you know, it's because the story. Like it is a truly timeless story because and it has a lot of universal appeal because it's about homecoming and everyone can identify with that kind of thing at one point. You know, a hero's struggle. That's certainly nothing new. Like that's still a thing. And, you know, almost every movie, you know, there's coming of age, there's there's regret, there's adventure, there's family, there's there's good guys and bad guys. It's like a lot of just the tenets of great movie making are just kind of right there in black and white or I guess papyrus and whatever color they printed ink with.

53:32Right. And I think it also goes to show like it touches on values that are so universal, at least, you know, to Western eyes and ears, that we still hold those same values today. They still make sense to us. They don't seem totally foreign. Yeah, exactly. What else you got? Anything else? Yeah. I mean, there's been adaptations over the years beyond this movie, obviously. 1922, the novel Ulysses by James Joyce was a big one because Ulysses is the Latin version of Odysseus.

54:06So that's what he's writing about in that. There was a great novel. I haven't read it yet, but I want to. Margaret Atwood in 2005 wrote a novel called The Penelopead. The Penelopead? How do you say that? The Penelopead is what I'm going to say. The Penelopead, I guess. Yeah, like the Iliad and Penelope. Penelope, she combined those two because it's the Odyssey told from Penelope's point of view. Yeah, that's kind of cool. And then, Oh Brother, Where Art Thou? is obviously an allegory for the Odyssey. I've never noticed it before.

54:37I've heard that ever since the movie came out, and I never, I still didn't ever notice it. But I wonder now if I went back and watched it, if I would get it. I think so. I mean, it opens with a quote from Homer on screen, so they clearly tell you what this is up front. And, you know, George Clooney's characters named Ulysses, which is, again, the Latin version of Odysseus. Okay. It's their journey home. Sure. Very, you know, sort of plainly.

55:07Penelope, in the movie, his wife's name is Penny, Holly Hunter. Okay. Uh, there are suitors trying to, uh, take her hand that he has to fight. Stay out of Woolworths. Exactly. There's a blind prophet, uh, that is, um, you know, there's just a blind prophet in the movie. There's just like a blind seer. Right. Uh, the, the Cyclops is Big Dan Teague, uh, the John Goodman's character. Why is he the Cyclops? Oh, he has a patch over his eye. That's right. I forgot. Yeah. So he's a Bible salesman.

55:39Uh, the sirens are, you know, like very clearly in there. They're like literally singing at the creek and like they're under their trance. Mm-hmm. Uh, Cersei and the pigs is more like the toad. They told us you was a toad. Yeah, that's right. So it turns John Titora into a toad instead of a swine in this case. Okay. All right. I guess I'm convinced now. Yeah. And there's also like, uh, um, Poseidon's wrath is in there. Uh, there's the, the song, the suitors in the song when they sing Man of Constant Sorrow. It's like, it's very kind of directly taken from the Odyssey and only the way that the Coen brothers could do something like that.

56:14They're great. They're so great. And there's a sequel too, right? To the, oh brother, where art thou? No, to the Odyssey. Yeah, the Telegany, which is about Odysseus's other son that's not mentioned in the Odyssey, but it's, it supposes that he had a son with Cersei's on that island and, uh, they produced the son Teleganus. And Teleganus, um, is not quite as loyal to his father as, uh, Telemachus is because he goes home and kills, uh, Odysseus and he marries Penelope.

56:49Telemachus just shrugs and says, okay, well, I guess I'll marry Cersei's to get back at you. And they all become immortal. That's right. Uh, they believe it was written by, uh, a Greek poet named, uh, Yugumon of Cyrene. Um, the funny thing about this one is it was actually lost to history. So what we know about the Telegany has, is references from other writings about it. So, uh, maybe one day if the Odyssey is ever truly lost to history, that it will listen to this podcast.

57:20Oh yeah. To write the next version. Man, that was amazing. Uh, that's it for the Odyssey.

Listener mail about rope

57:27We could turn this into a 20-part series if we wanted to, but we don't. Uh, and if you're like, I really like the movie, I really like this episode. There's so much to read about interpreting the Odyssey. That's just super fascinating. So go forth and multiply your awareness of the Odyssey. And in the meantime, everybody, I think it's time for listener mail.

57:49Uh, this is about Rope. Hey guys, uh, long-time listener. I love the Rope episode. I especially enjoyed the history of Rope making, the explanation of how something so seemingly simple is actually a pretty ingenious piece of technology. I do think you guys missed a cool opportunity, though, uh, to talk about Rope as a transformative lifting technology. Uh, I think we might have, like, briefly said something about raising houses, but maybe not even. Uh, while sailing ships were undoubtedly critical to connecting the world, Rope, especially combined with pulleys, it's what allowed us to turn human and animal muscle into something enormously more useful.

58:22Think about how much of ancient civilization depends on moving very heavy things upward. Temples, city walls, aqueducts, bridges, you name it. Rope didn't just rig the ships and build civilizations. Help build the civilizations themselves. Uh, anyway, great episode, guys. Thanks for making me spend the rest of the day thinking about Rope. Not something I expected to do. That is from Jonathan. Thanks a lot, Jonathan. You make a great case. Just like you did, Chuck, with, um, comparing O Brother of Warth on The Odyssey. Huh, okay. Uh, if you want to be like Jonathan and send us an awesome email, we love that kind of thing.

58:54Uh, you can wrap it up, spank it on the bottom with a sword, and send it off to StuffPodcasts at iHeartRadio.com.

59:05Stuff You Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app. Apple Podcasts are wherever you listen to your favorite shows. Warning, the following song has been rated dangerously catchy and may not be suitable for grown-ups. One, two, three, four. One, two, three, four. Knock, knock, knockin' at the door. Knock, knock, knockin' at the door. Five, six, who is it?

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