Bonnie and Clyde

Introduction to Bonnie and Clyde

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1:40Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of iHeartRadio. Hey and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh and there's Chuck and Jerry's here too. Machine gun Jerry Roland. And this is Stuff You Should Know about Bonnie and Clyde, a true crime edition, but also a folk hero edition. That's right. And it's given me an opportunity to get that Bonnie and Clyde song stuck in my head all day,

2:10which is great. I've never heard that song. Bonnie and Clyde, Bonnie and Clyde. I think you're just making that up. No, it's for real. I think it was Serge Gainsbourg, but I know the Luna version. I came across that mention of that. So yeah, it was Serge Gainsbourg and Brigitte Bardot. Yeah, but Luna covered it. And speaking of, Luna leader Dean Wareham's brother, Anthony, is a listener. So hello, Anthony.

2:42Wow. We finally got to Anthony. I tried to buy Dean's guitar off of Instagram a few weeks ago. How'd it go? Well, he put his guitar up and it's the one that's on the cover of his book, Black Postcards. And he's used in the studio and on tour. And I was like, huh. He said, let me just see how much he wants. And he said I missed it by a day, so. That stinks. Well, maybe Anthony can pull some strings for you. Yeah, like steal a guitar from Dean and just send it my way. Yeah. And if Anthony did that, he'd be a lot like Clyde Barrow

3:14or Bonnie Parker. Yeah, man. These guys like to steal stuff. So yeah, did you see the PBS documentary, the American Experience documentary on him? No, just the movie. It was good. It's worth watching. I haven't seen the movie, so you put the two of us together and we have a full comprehension, right? That's how it works. But they kind of, they basically got across that they stole or Clyde stole just literally as a way of life. Yeah. Like he stole cars to get around. He stole money to buy food with.

3:45Like he, that's just how he lived. And they make the point, and I think Livia helps us with this. I think she kind of makes the point too. Like these were the options that were open to them, especially Clyde, because he was raised dirt poor during the Depression. And like a lot of people were poor during the Depression. So if you were dirt poor during the Depression, you were really, really poor. And that's the life that Clyde Barrow was born into. Yeah, for sure. And, you know, not to excuse crime, but that was just his background.

4:16And not to, you know, they've been glorified over the years, but kind of reading through this, it was like, oh man, they like just would murder people at will. Again, usually to get out of a scrape, but still just like killing people left and right, just, you know, to not get caught. Yeah, particularly cops. And there's some disputes over, there's a pair of patrolmen that were killed, and it's disputed whether Bonnie was one of the gunmen or not. There's some other crimes that they have had attributed to them

4:49that may or may not have like been their doing, but there are definitely, there's a, the path behind them was littered with dead cops. Yeah. That they definitely murdered. Yeah. They were known to like, if a cop came up to them, even if they had no idea who they were and were trying to help, they'd just open fire and kill the guy. Like that was definitely their MO. Typically with cops though. And I don't, this doesn't like justify it, but this was also the era where the cops would just open fire on you too.

5:20There wasn't like a put your hands up kind of stuff. It was like, you're an outlaw. I'm going to start shooting at you first. Ask questions later. Yeah. Not like these days where cops and ICE never just kill people. Right. Bad joke. Yeah. All right. Well, and you know, maybe I'll make this point later too, but, and again, it doesn't justify it, but after Clyde's prison stint early on, like he was to me, like clearly killing people.

5:51So he would never ever have to go back to prison. Right. You know? Yeah. And you can kind of get that after you hear about his, his time in prison and how much he hated it.

Early life and first crimes

6:01Yeah.

Early life and first crimes

6:02So let's get going and talk about Clyde first. I know it's Bonnie and Clyde, but we're going Clyde and Bonnie initially. Uh, he was born in Texas in 1909 in Teleco. And, you know, when he was a kid, he, I don't think this necessarily means he was set for a life of crime. So a lot of kids play gangster or play outlaw. And that's, but that's what he did. Uh, and in the twenties they moved to a very, very, very poor neighborhood in West Dallas and were homeless as a family for a while. And his brother Buck Barrow and Clyde started,

6:35you know, early on like stealing food, like you mentioned, stealing turkeys. And then that graduated to robbery and car theft and stuff like that to the point where he was eventually arrested for the first time when he was 17 for car theft. Yeah. This was not him boosting a car, which was basically how he got every other car. He actually went and rented a car and then visited a girlfriend and then didn't take it back. Yeah. That's stealing though, you know, it, no, it definitely is. That's by taking, I think. But, but I think also you can implicate the car rental place for renting a car to a 17 year old.

7:09Yeah. I was also quite frankly surprised to learn that they had car rental services in 1926. Yeah. Although it was probably just some dude in town who'd let you take his car, for 10 bucks or something. but you got to be 13. Right. So, yeah, that was his first brush with the law. And that was certainly far from his last. And that's Clyde. His middle name was Chestnut, by the way, which I thought was pretty cool. Very cute.

Bonnie meets Clyde and prison years

7:35Bonnie's middle name was Elizabeth. Her name was Bonnie Elizabeth Parker. She was born into different circumstances than Clyde. Her mom was a seamstress. Her dad was a bricklayer. But she was, she was born in Rowena, Texas. And after her father died, the family had very little means of supporting themselves. And her mom was, I think her mom's name was Emma. She was basically left to raise three very little kids on her own. And so they ended up in the same area,

8:06roughly where Clyde and his family were. Basically, I saw it put that they were both from the same side of the tracks, despite Bonnie's mom raising her and her siblings to be respectable and, and up to feel that they were above their circumstances rather than, you know, part of their circumstances. For sure. So, you know, this was the early 1900s. So a lot of times you would find kids dropping out of school or getting married at very young ages. And that's what happened with Bonnie at 15.

8:37She married a guy named Roy Thornton, who was a criminal. So that kind of gave her a taste of that lifestyle. They weren't together too long, I think about four years, even though they never officially legally got divorced. And finally hooked up with Clyde in 1930 when he was 20 and she was 19. And it wasn't long after they got together that Clyde went to prison for car theft and burglary. Again, just sort of doing the same fairly low stakes crimes at the time.

9:11And she, she got him out of jail. She smuggled in a gun and like helped him escape basically with two other inmates. They were all three recaptured though. And that's when he got his kind of really tough stint in prison. They sentenced him to 14 years hard labor on the Easton prison farm, which was a notorious farm in the Texas penal system where you would just get beaten for no reason by the guards who were just completely beyond the law. And he was also,

9:42he had been taken, remember, he's still pretty young at this time. He was basically claimed by another inmate who raped him repeatedly and beat him repeatedly. And he essentially was like, this is my life now for at least the next 14 years. And there was a, he finally was, was tired enough of it that he smuggled a galvanized pipe into the cells with him. And he walked to the showers knowing that this guy was going to follow him. And the guy did. And Clyde suddenly turns on him and beat him over the head until he was dead with the,

10:15the lead pipe. And I think one thing that really kind of gets across like how Clyde was, he was kind of a likable person throughout his life, but especially at this time, another inmate who already had a life sentence, he was never getting out. And he took the blame so that Clyde wouldn't basically ruin his future for killing the man who'd been raping him. Yeah. I mean, hey, it's a pretty standup thing to do for a guy in prison. It totally is.

10:45It's like, I donated a kidney to a stranger once. Oh yeah, well, I took a murder rap so a kid wouldn't, who was doling out his own justice, wouldn't ruin his life. Yeah. So, you know, that's what I was referencing when it, you know, it seems that Clyde did everything, including killing cops that he could to stay out of jail again. Mm-hmm. Again, not excusing the killing of police, just want to kind of lay down the reality of being assaulted in prison like that. I think you're, you're explaining his mindset. That's legitimate. Yeah. Okay. So, one of the other things,

11:16I don't think Clyde was ever accused of being like the smartest guy in the world. Because at one point he cut off two of his toes to avoid the hard labor part of the hard labor prison. And less than a week later, he was freed when his mother petitioned for parole. So, didn't time that one out quite right. No, he was also, I guess, not known as the luckiest guy around too. Yeah. He spent, so he spent less than two years in prison, but in that time he changed like fundamentally.

11:50Yeah. Before, like you said, fairly light stuff, boosting cars, stealing truckloads of turkeys, that kind of stuff. But there was another guy that he was in the prison with who said that before his very eyes, he saw Clyde change from a schoolboy to a rattlesnake. And even Bonnie later on in a poem that she wrote, she used to write poetry, she mentioned that Clyde was basically a victim of unfair institutionalization, basically.

12:20that that's what, that's why he was the way he was. I gotta say, every time you say boosted a car, it makes you sound super street. I sound like a, a fifties greaser in the seventies. Yeah. Instead of stealing a car. Like, I'm not cool enough to say boosting a car. I guess you could say stealing. Yeah. I was going to say, I don't know any other way to put it, but I mean, I guess that's just because I'm from the street. I was about to say, you're like, Oh wait, there's a word for boosting a car. Stealing. What's the steal?

12:50Yeah. They don't teach that on the street. So I don't blame you. So Clyde was released, like we said, when his mother petitioned for that release. And he went right back to robbing, you know, gas stations, convenience stores, stuff like that. He had his first sort of partner in crime. His name was Ralph Fultz. And Bonnie was kind of joined up with him as the, the first version of the Barrow gang. Just the three of them, even though like, you know, parents on both sides were like,

13:20Bonnie, you can't join up with this criminal gang. Like, please don't do it. And she's like, I love my man. Yeah. She said, I like the bad boys for sure. But you know, one of the reasons why we still know about Bonnie and Clyde, not just because they became celebrities, but also because they were just totally in love with one another. I mean, like basically every single outlaw romance or love story that you've ever seen in the movies or on TV is in one way or another based on Bonnie and Clyde.

13:53Oh yeah? That's my theory. Yeah. I should probably say this is not, you know, something from an academic journal I read, but. A white paper, as Emily would say. Yeah, exactly. Right. It's, it's something I'm working on. Emily's got one for everything, doesn't she? Oh yeah. When I like, you know, when she'll just sort of make a claim or something else and not to challenge her, I'll just be like, are you sure about that or something? And she'll be like, well, I don't have a white paper on it. Like, all right, I know that's a time to back off.

The growing gang and early murders

14:22Thank you, Emily. So in April of 32, and you know, we should point out, this is over just a couple of years that all of their shenanigans took place. Yeah. So we're going to be spitting out dates kind of fast and furious, but in April of, speaking of boosting cars, in April of 32, did you get that one? Fast and Furious. Oh, oh, did they boost cars? I thought they, there were extensive lengthy scenes of them negotiating at car dealerships for their purchases.

14:54I think I only saw, you got to sell me this car. It's about family. I only know that line about family as a reference because I've only seen one of that. I think I saw that very first movie. Did you? I'm not familiar with the fast and the furious verse, but were they even Carthy's? I think they were, right? I probably, I mean, they were definitely, I get the impression that they were on the wrong side of the law, the right side of justice. Oh man, that's the log line. Did you, you didn't see any of those? No. Not even the first one?

15:25No. You say that like you haven't seen garbage movies before. I'm sorry. But it's also the, the highest grossing movie franchise in the world ever. Well, it's because there's 37 of them. I mean, that's definitely part of it, but also people apparently like car movies. they do. And they're supposed to be good. All right. So back to, after pointing out my dumb pun, April of 32, Bonnie and Ralph Fultz, who was the guy who he initially hooked up with to the gang, they were arrested, uh,

15:55trying to rob a hardware store. And she got out, uh, was never indicted at least. And Ralph was convicted. And while she was sort of being investigated for indictment, uh, Clyde and his other boys are still out there. Again, robbing banks, robbing stores, gas stations, all pretty. And this is one reason they got away with it for so long is they never did like these huge things. They were kind of in small towns, robbing, you know, kind of backwater grocery stores and stuff. It's key. Uh, but it was at one of these, um,

16:25robberies where the first murder happens when a store owner and one of the only non-cops, a guy named John Butcher was killed. Yeah. Uh, and it's also not clear whether it was Clyde that did it. Uh, I don't think anyone thinks it was Bonnie. I'm not, or yeah, she was in jail. I think like you said at the time. Yeah. It definitely wasn't her. Um, there was, he was with an associate named Raymond Hamilton and Raymond Hamilton and Floyd Hamilton would kind of come in and out of the Barrow gang. And I got the impression that like Clyde was definitely one of the more standup

16:57gangsters of the people in his gang that he ran with some shady, shady dudes that were way more murderous than him. And that it was just basically him being pragmatic. Like he just had a, a small pool of people who he knew could help him rob a store at any given time. So he had to kind of hang out with these shady people. I get the impression he otherwise wouldn't have necessarily. Yeah. I sort of do too. Uh, yeah. So that was in April of the first murder.

17:28The second murder, uh, was in August of that year when Clyde and Raymond and another, you know, guy that they was sort of in and out of the gang, um, killed an undersheriff, I guess, which is sort of like a deputy named Eugene Moore in string town, Oklahoma. And then went back to Dallas around Christmas and, uh, Clyde, uh, talked to a kid, basically a 16 year old named WD Jones into joining up with the gang. And on Christmas day, which was the next day,

17:59they killed another guy named Doyle Johnson while stealing his car. And Clyde was like, all right, kid, like you got to stay with us now. Uh, otherwise like they're going to get you for this murder. Yeah. Um, and WD being 16 at the time was like, Oh God, I have no choice. I have to turn to a life of crime. Now I'm in too deep. Um, as Phil Collins would later say, um, so he did, he stuck around and he and, um, Bonnie and Clyde were essentially the first cohesive Bonnie and Clyde gang.

18:32Yeah. Cause they stuck together for quite a while. Permanent members. Did a lot of stuff. Everything we're talking about here, every significant thing, which is usually, um, the murder of a cop. They're in between those. There's handfuls and handfuls of robberies and, you know, shootouts and stuff like that, that they engaged in. They were on the run and on the move and under the gun. Every moment from the start to their death over the course of this two something years. Um, they were just constantly in action.

19:03Even when they took a vacation, as we'll see in Joplin, Missouri, they ended up in a shootout. Yeah. That was a lot, a lot of gunplay. Uh, I mean, that was at Christmas when the second murder happened, uh, in January, there was another murder. And this was, uh, just a sort of an unlucky circumstance when they walked into an ambush, but it wasn't for them. It was for a different target and, but it was an ambush nonetheless. So they killed the deputy sheriff named Malkin Davis.

19:33And for the next couple of months, basically early 33 through the spring, it was Missouri, Arkansas, Oklahoma, stealing, boosting cars. How to say it, right? Yeah. Boosting cars. Um, and you know, if you've ever seen the very famous photos, uh, that looks like, Hey, this looks sort of like a photo shoot of these criminals. That's kind of exactly what it was. It was during this time that WD took these photos of them, uh, these very famous photos.

20:04Um, one of which I'm sure you saw this one online. Uh, somebody did a really good job colorizing the one where he's kind of, uh, lifted Bonnie up and, um, like colorized and retouched to where it looks like a modern photo. There's like a lot of clarity, uh, cause otherwise they're sort of grainy black and white, but yeah, you get your, with this color photo, you get a really good look at like who they were and they, they, you know, Faye Dunaway and Warren Beatty played them for a reason. Like they were both like pretty attractive people.

20:36Yeah. And, um, I didn't know this, but Bonnie was really dinkums. Like she was under, what does that mean? She was under five feet tall and weighed 85 pounds. That's a dinkums. Yeah. That's a dinkums. Never heard of that. Um, I guess it's my, it's mine. Oh, okay. I like it. It's being white papered. It's on archive right now. Well, Yumi's a small person. Do you say come here little dinkums? Is that where it comes from? Yeah. It drives her crazy.

21:04She's like, put me down. All right. Yeah. She was a dinkums. That's why he was just sort of holding her up with one arm, I guess. Yeah. And also it would come in handy later when she injures her leg. Right. Cause she had to be carried quite a bit. But, um, so around this time, those photos, like you said, they'll, they'll come back in again. Um, but around this time, um, I guess in March, this is January when they started shooting at the cops again. Yeah. December and January. When they started shooting at the cops again. Right. So this is,

21:34this is March. And, um, when Clyde's brother Buck shows up and Buck had been in prison too. Remember, he basically taught his little brother Clyde how to be a criminal. Um, but not a murderous criminal. Clyde learned that on his own. Remember? Yeah. And Buck's wife, Blanche came along. So now they had a two couple gang with a fifth wheel in WD. Blanche and Buck and Bonnie and Clyde. And poor little WD, who again is like 16, maybe 17 by now. And after like this, uh, at least a year of just constant crime,

22:08they're like, let's take a, a vacation in Joplin, Missouri, Missouri. Right. That's how they say it. Yeah. Um, and I, they were there for 13 days before the cops got called on them because they were basically being noisy drunks. Yeah. Um, in, in a neighborhood and the neighbors were like, these are probably bootleggers because this is, this is, you know, um, I guess it's after prohibition shortly after prohibition, but still, um, these bootleg operations were so successful.

22:39I'm sure they just didn't go away immediately. Yeah. And they're like, whoever's at this Airbnb is really dragging the neighborhood down. Yeah. I think that's exactly right. So they did call the cops and another gunfight, you know, the, the cops come up. And like you said, this is just a time where people are just opening fire all over the place. And they killed two cops, Harry McGinnis and Wes Harriman. And the gang got out of there. And, uh, WD, his, his nickname was little 40. He was shot in the side and recovered. And they somehow with those old cars in the 1930s,

23:13uh, drove about 600 miles overnight to Shamrock, Texas. It's a long drive. Yeah. Because Clyde was a professional getaway driver. He was, he was really good at stealing cars and he was really good at driving cars fast. Yeah. Should we take a break? Yes. I think that's a great idea, Chuck. All right. We'll be right back with more on B and C.

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26:31Stuff you should know.

26:36All right, so we're back with Bonnie and Clyde.

Tabloid fame and public perception

26:39They are starting to get a little bit of press at this point, and the newspapers show up at the hideout in Joplin, Missouri, at the Airbnb. Once they found out what was going on, they found, you know, guns. They found this poem that Bonnie had written, which we'll get to in a second in a little more detail. They found that undeveloped film. So you can imagine they developed that film of these, like, soon-to-be infamous photos of Bonnie with a cigar and all this stuff. And it was front-page stuff.

27:11And, like, everybody was all of a sudden, like, really kind of captured by the allure of these gangsters. Yeah, because not only are they, like, doing, you know, newspaper article-worthy crimes, getting away from the cops, killing cops, now there's photos that they can run alongside of them. So everybody starts getting in on the act, not just the press, but also true crime magazines, newsreels. Like, they became famous overnight. Like, they were already local legends in Texas.

27:43After those photos started getting published on The Wire, that was when they just really became icons. Yeah. I mean, attractive young lovers, they're having a good time, because in these photos, they're, like, goofing off and having fun. Right. So, obviously, just something that's going to capture the public's attention. They published that poem that you referenced earlier. It was called The Story of Suicide Sal. Mm-hmm. And I read the poem. I'm sure you did, too. Mm-hmm. She wrote this in jail, when she was briefly in jail in 1932.

28:13And, you know, it's an okay poem. It's not the greatest thing in the world. But when I was reading it, I was like, I wonder if anyone's ever put this to song. I was like, surely someone has. And I went online. I was like, oh, yeah, there it is. And I went and played it, and I was listening to it. And it was this woman. And it was, like, a country sort of version. I was like, wait a minute. I was like, this, I bet this is not real. And I looked, of course, it was freaking AI from, like, February of this year. Oh, my God. Like, all completely fake. And I was just, it left a really nasty taste in my mouth.

28:46I'm sure. And well, it should, man. Yeah. You got duped by AI. Somebody said, AI, make a song out of this Bonnie Parker poem. Yeah. In the style of Juice Newton. Yeah. It was more like, I don't know. I can't think of a country singer right now. Like, new country stuff? Like, country pop? Yeah. I mean, it wasn't poppy. It sounded country. But the way, the woman's, the fake woman's voice, I don't even want to call her a woman, the computer voice,

29:16was just super sort of modern Nashville polished. Hmm. Yeah. Yeah. I hope AI, when they take over, don't come back and punish us for saying things, derogatory things, like we've said about them over the years. Remember, yeah. Remember the guy on the train in Canada that I overheard talking about AI? It was on the ride from Ottawa to Toronto. Yeah, but I don't remember what he said. He said, he's talking about AI. He's like, some people don't like it. Some people do like it. He's like, I mean, I can't wait for AI to get here.

29:48Like it was coming to dinner. I was like, bro, it is here, my friend. Right. Yeah. Sweet, sweet Canadian. You need to get off the train more often. Yeah. I tell you what, he knew a lot about NHL hockey, though. I'll bet. Like basically every Canadian does. Yeah. One thing about that poem, too. So in it, she uses a bunch of like slang, like underworld slang, basically. Yeah. But it's still a serviceable poem, especially for a 22-year-old who dropped out of school at 15.

30:20And I think that that's like a really good back-of-the-envelope sketch of Bonnie's personality. She was very bright. She excelled in school, but she dropped out at 15, and she was fascinated with the underworld and like outlaw stuff. So much so that she started living that life because she found a guy who was living in that life, and she decided to be with him, you know? So that was, that's her basically encapsulated. Yeah. I totally agree. So there, the public again is enthralled at this point.

30:52They're in like the True Detective Mysteries magazines and stuff like that.

30:58In 19, you mentioned that Clyde loved cars and like loved to boost them and also drive them. And he loved Fords, and he wrote a letter in 1934, supposedly, I don't think they verified it from him, but it certainly sounds like it was to me, wrote a letter to Henry Ford. And he said, part of the letter says, while I still have got breath in my lungs, I will tell you what a dandy car you make. I have drove Fords exclusively when I could get away with one. For sustained speed and freedom from trouble,

31:28the Ford has got every other car skinned. There's your ad. And even if my business hasn't been strictly legal, it don't hurt anything to tell you what a fine car you got in the V8. And judging from, you know, we later got poems from Clyde as well, and there were a lot of misspellings and stuff, and I said he wasn't, you know, the brightest bulb because of his upbringing, of course. But it sounds to me pretty legit. Yeah. Yeah. I think at least Henry Ford was like, it's legit enough to have his secretary craft a thank you letter

31:59to send back. Pretty funny. Yeah. And you said that, like, they were, you know, they become popularizing true crime magazines, in part as, like, folk heroes, like I said at the outset, and one of the reasons why is they're committing these crimes at the height of the Depression, or the depth of the Depression. Yeah. And people were rooting for people who did things like rob banks because the banks were the villains at the time. They were foreclosing on, like, hardworking, honest people. Yeah.

32:29And so if you robbed a bank, you kind of automatically became a folk hero. And people like Bonnie and Clyde so much that those true crime magazines basically attributed scores of bank robberies to them that they never did. Yeah, for sure. Apparently they were popular enough that banks would, if they got robbed, they'd be like, yeah, Bonnie and Clyde just robbed us. Just to have that brush for celebrity, even if it wasn't them. Yeah, I mean, get it in the paper. Mm-hmm. For sure. They also, you know, they did kill a lot of cops,

32:59but they also let a lot go by way of kind of taking them with them, which is technically kidnapping. Mm-hmm. Sometimes cops, sometimes civilians, that they would kidnap and then just drop them off in the middle of nowhere, basically, so they didn't have to kill them, which, you know, that was a better choice, I guess. Uh, and they were also like, you know, this is a time when you get away with crime a lot easier and come and go is a lot easier just because of communications and the way things worked. And they would, you know, they'd go home

33:30and, like, visit their families and stuff and not get caught. Like, they didn't have their family's homes staked out at this point. No, but they were also really safe about it. They were very smart. Like, they'd write a message in a Coke bottle and just throw it out of the car as they were driving past at their mom's house or whatever. Like, they were, they were smart. They assumed the phones were tapped and all that stuff. But if you're an outlaw that are well-known around those parts, just show up at home is still pretty, pretty risky. Oh, for sure. So, uh, after Joplin,

34:00after the little vacay in Joplin that ended on a shootout with the cops and the death of two cops, um, they kept moving. They got back on the road and, uh, they were in a car wreck, actually, at one point, um, like a couple months later. And they, like, it was a bad crash. Clyde was going really fast. They rolled the car. And Bonnie got third-degree burns on her leg. I saw from one account that she was burned because the car caught on fire. Another account said that it was acid from the battery.

34:33Either way, she had third-degree burns down to her bones and no options about going and getting actual medical treatment. So she had, she was in a lot of pain and limped and hopped and was carried in some cases for the rest of her life. Why does it surprise me that cars had batteries then? I think that was actually very new. And that was one of the reasons Clyde was able to steal so many cars is because you could hotwire them now. Oh, okay. Mm-hmm. I think that was super new.

35:04All right. Which is probably why it leaked all over money. Yeah, I guess. They didn't have the caps. No, they were like, just don't tip it over. Don't roll your car over and everything should be fine. All right. So good driver, except when he's crashing cars.

Shootouts and splintering of the gang

35:20Later, they, I think it was, that was in June of 33, they robbed a store in Alma, Texas. Another gunfight with two cops and they killed another cop. Marshal Henry D. Humphrey escaped again. In July, they were not at that Airbnb, but they went to a different one in Missouri, another guest house. And the owner, and I never had heard of this, but it makes sense. If you, apparently back then, if you would back a car in, they called that like gangster style because you want to get out of there quick.

35:51Mm-hmm. And that was sort of a, just a red flag. So he noticed that they backed their car in. The other thing he noticed to me, a bigger tell, is they taped newspapers over the windows. And they paid for their meals with coins. And it turns out some vending machines nearby had been robbed. So this was all just like, the guy was like, well, maybe I should call the cops. So they did. The cops came out. Guess what happened? Another gunfight. Guess what happened? They escaped again. But this time, Buck Barrow, his brother was wounded pretty badly.

36:24And Blanche was too. Blanche got shards of glass in her eyes. I'm guessing temporarily blinding her considering the jobs she had later in life. She was blinded in at least one eye. So I don't know if it was permanent or not either. I didn't see that anywhere. Yeah. So they actually made it, they escaped from this gunfight with the cops in Missouri. And they made it all the way to Iowa. And they found like a park. They were hanging, laying low in this park, trying to keep Buck alive.

36:54And I guess tending to Blanche as well. And again, they backed their car in gangster style. That caught people's attention. They also left the car running when they went to town to buy supplies. That's extra gangster. For sure. Either that or you just got places to be, you know, but I guess people were jumpy back then. Yeah. The cops showed up at the park. Somebody followed them or said that these people are staying at the park right now. 50 cops show up. Another gunfight happens. This is like a day or so,

37:24I think, after the first one. And Blanche and Buck, Buck gets hit again. And he's like, I can't make it any further. You guys go on. Blanche stays with Buck. And they both get arrested. Bonnie, Clyde, and WD make their escape. And they actually get away. WD finally says like, that's enough for me. I'm done. He did the whole blackjack dealers like I'm out thing. Yeah. And he went home to Texas. Yeah. So he goes home to Texas while Buck is arrested. I think five days later, he dies. So Big Brother is now gone.

37:55Blanche's husband. And when WD goes home, he's arrested in pretty short order, I think in November. And he told the cops like, yeah, I was in the Barrow gang. But he said he was forced into it. And because of that fact and because he was a kid, they were fairly lenient on him. They sentenced him to six years in prison. Yeah. So, yeah, I think WD kind of got the least of it out of anybody. Because also at this time, like there are other people

38:26that they're kind of coming up against, doing some crimes with here, there. They're going in and out of prison. Yeah. Pretty, pretty frequently. And as a matter of fact, because he was shorthanded, he actually, Clyde, staged a prison break. Remember the old Easton prison farm? Yeah. That Clyde had learned to hate and had changed Clyde, essentially, right? Well, he had people on the inside and he and a guy named Jimmy Mullins busted these guys out.

38:58They busted out Henry Methvin, Joe Palmer, a guy named Hilton Bybee, and Raymond Hamilton. Remember him from the earlier section? He had been captured and sent to prison and so they busted him out because Clyde needed more help because now WD was gone and so was Buck. Yes, and killed two guards in the process here, so that's two more down. I mean, the bodies are stacking up at this point. Well, one of those guards I think may have been purposely killed because he was known as such a brutal guard.

39:29He would leave his post just to go beat inmates. Yeah. So it's probably not coincidence that he was one of the two that were killed during this. Like get one on the way out? Mm-hmm. All right, so the gang is still on the run and it feels like the noose is tightening a little bit. Like the original gang has now partly died and been in prison so it's been splintered. Yeah. But they're soldiering on with new people and in April of 34, Bonnie Clyde and Henry Methvin

39:59were in and he was one of the guys they boosted from prison. Yeah? Mm-hmm. Can you say that too? Yeah, you can boost somebody from prison, sure. Okay. What about when you just give somebody a boost like an emotional support? Where does that fit in? That is, let's see, I guess that would be clarking somebody some support. Yeah, clark me some good feelings. Yeah. So where was I? Henry Methvin, they all went to Grapevine, Texas at this point. A couple of highway cops, highway patrolmen thought they were

40:31stranded motorists and stopped to help them out and they killed them. So two more cops dead. And then five days after that, they killed another cop in Oklahoma and kidnapped a police chief. So things are getting really pretty intense at this point. I mean, three cops in two days, I think? Yeah. That's, or three cops in, yeah, three days, something like that. That's crazy. So this was, yeah, you kind of get the impression that things are starting to move really,

41:02really fast at this point, right? Raymond Hamilton, he was recaptured, I think by like a month or so after, but he'd already been involved in the murders of these cops and like a bunch of other robberies and stuff. So remember, he had been busted out. So when he was recaptured, not only was he being resentenced for escaping prison, but also for all the crimes, including murder, that he committed in the short like month or two that he was out. He was sentenced to the Texas State Pen

41:33in Huntsville and placed on death row there. He also escaped there too, but he was recaptured again. Do you know how hard it's got to be to escape from death row?

41:43Uh, how hard? Really hard. Okay. But he had already actually split ways with Bonnie and Clyde when they finally recaptured him and sent him to Huntsville. And they had had a falling out. Yeah, they ended up sending a letter to Hamilton in prison saying like, you know, you stole from us and you're a coward. So yeah, it was a pretty bad breakup. It was. There was no love lost.

42:14Should we break up this episode? Oh, good call. All right, we'll be back to finish up on Bonnie and Clyde right after this. Ha! Who?

42:25Ha!

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45:10with Joshua and Charles. Stuff you should know.

The dragnet and law enforcement closing in

45:20Okay, Chuck, so you had said a little while ago that one of the reasons they were able to be so successful is because they were, there were a handful of reasons. One, they typically kept their targets pretty small. They were small towns, often mom and pop groceries, maybe like a gas station, something like that. Every once in a while, a bank. But remember, like all of their crimes were exaggerated, so they were supposedly two of the greatest bank robbers that ever lived, even though they'd only

45:50done a couple of banks. So by making their takes pretty small, I think the biggest take was like $1,800, which is less than $50,000 today. That was far and away the biggest take. Sometimes they'd make enough money just to buy some groceries or something like that. They kept themselves small. They made themselves small targets. What made them huge targets was killing cops. You know, like that definitely catches the attention of other cops. And there was another Texas outlaw named Willis Newton who said killing that first cop, Eugene Moore,

46:21was their true undoing. And then all the cops after that just made them even bigger targets. But one of the other reasons they were able to still get away, even after killing all those cops, is because those cops in the different jurisdictions were not coordinating in any way. No, I mean, that didn't happen back then. It's not like they were being stubborn. That was just not a thing that had really come along yet. Like working interstate with one another or even inter-county, probably. The FBI wasn't quite a thing yet. The Bureau investigation

46:51was. And all they could, they did start investigating them, I guess the BI, in December of 32 and did get a warrant in May of 33, but it was only over interstate moving of the stolen cars. But they did get involved with the local cops and start sort of providing information, providing support to like the local cops and the state agencies as, you know, part of the eventual dragnet. And it seems like the cops in Texas and Louisiana are the ones

47:21who really sort of got together finally to zero in on them and focus on these guys. And when the Texas Rangers come on the scene, that means things are really serious. And that's what happened after that second prison break. The Texas Rangers got together. This guy came out of retirement, Captain Frank, not Hammer, but Hammer, I guess. He probably called himself the Hammer. And he was like, I'm coming out of retirement to get these guys and had a posse of six Rangers. And he's like,

47:51I've killed 53 dudes in my law enforcement career. So it was really on at this point. It was. He coordinated with a guy named Henderson Jordan, who was sheriff in a parish in Louisiana, Bienville Parish. And the reason he's significant is because Henry Methvin, remember, he was one of the guys that got busted out with Raymond Hamilton and some of the other guys and joined the gang. Methvin was now a part of the gang. He lived, his family lived in Bienville Parish.

48:22And supposedly, Henderson Jordan and the sheriff had been approached by Methvin's family who were alarmed that he was wanted by the cops and with Bonnie and Clyde, these notorious outlaws. And they said, look, we can get our son to cooperate. He was basically Daryl in Red Dawn, essentially.

48:40That's Daryl's dad's car. It's the mayor's car. So his family is like, we'll get him to cooperate, but you got to give him clemency. But we'll get you Bonnie and Clyde if you make sure our boy doesn't get the chair for all this stuff. And so Frank Hamer and Henderson Jordan are like, let's make this happen. This was ultimately the downfall. Trusting Henry Methvin was what brought them to their end. You know, I'm still mad at Daryl after all these years.

49:10I know. The second you said Daryl from Red Dawn, I was just like, oh, that guy. They picked like a perfect actor for it. That guy really suited that part. Yeah, he was one of the bad socias in The Outsiders, too. Oh, I didn't know that. So that fits. Did you know that S.E. Hinton was a teenage girl when she wrote The Outsiders? I had no idea. It's crazy. So they kind of figured out their route, basically, in that Bonnie and Clyde were driving a lot to that Methvin home in Louisiana

49:40on Highway 154.

The final ambush in Louisiana

49:43So in May of 1934, they were like, all right, we really need to get this done. And this is where the famous ambush happens. There, you know, are different like kind of disputing accounts of exactly how it went down. But it seems like they got Methvin's dad's car out on the road and parked it there with the wheel removed. So they would be like, oh, that's your dad's car. Like, it looks like he needs help. So they would pull over. They had those six Texas Rangers. They had automatic rifles. And as soon as that Bonnie and Clyde

50:14car showed up, they just started firing. They were like, we've seen enough of these guys' work to not let them open the doors, not try and arrest them or whatever, because they're going to be shooting at us. So they just basically shot the crud out of this car and to great effect. I mean, they murdered the crud out of them. They did. They got them. Yeah. Bonnie was shot 26 times. Clyde was shot 17 times. Further research says that it may have been as many as 50 times.

50:45They were kids, you know, they were 23 and 24 years old. And it was pretty gruesome. And the people in the press went wild over this ambush. Yeah, they towed the car with the bodies inside. That's crazy. Yeah. Well, they also laid in wait and executed them without giving them any chance to give themselves up. So at this point, basically anything's on the table, right? So they towed the death car and I guess it essentially immediately became

51:16like a tourist attraction. They sent them both back to Dallas for burial and both of the funeral homes where they were, they were each in a different funeral home because Bonnie's mom, Emma, was like, in death, they can't have anything to do with one another. I couldn't talk her out of being with them while she was alive, but I'm calling the shots now that she's dead and I don't want her anywhere near him. Both of their funerals were thronged with onlookers, but even before that, while their bodies were just basically

51:46hanging out in the public, all these basically souvenir seekers were trying to like cut off their body parts and stuff, right? Oh yeah, just like looting what they could to get a piece of the car or maybe to get like a blood-soaked handkerchief or something like that and yeah, supposedly some guy tried to cut off Clyde's ear. Their death photos are, you know, you can look those up if you have a strong stomach, they're pretty nasty and their funerals attracted like thousands of people to come and see the burials

52:16of Bonnie and Clyde.

Aftermath, funerals, and surviving members

52:18After they died, there was sort of a lot that went on. There was a book initially from Bonnie's mother and Clyde's sister. They got together and wrote a book called Fugitives, colon, the story of Clyde Barrow and Bonnie Parker. They started publishing more poems from Bonnie and Clyde, one from Bonnie called The Trail's End or The Story of Bonnie and Clyde and then another one that I mentioned earlier that Clyde had written sort of as response

52:48and in both of them they're kind of still talking about like, hey, we didn't do all these crimes, we're not as bad as everyone makes us out to be, that kind of thing. And key though in one of these Bonnie had requested at least in the poem someday they'll go down together, they meaning them, and they'll bury them side by side. So that seemed like that would have been her wish that she did not get. No, because her mom said heck no. I read his nephew and her niece maybe, great niece, have been like

53:19trying to draw up support to bury them, rebury them together, but it hasn't gotten anywhere. Yeah. So as, you know, I said a lot happened, basically what happened from this point forward is the cops were like, it's not good enough just to get like Bonnie and Clyde, like we got them, but we need to just dragnet the whole operation. And so all of their friends and family that were ever aiding and abetting or anything like that were rounded up. I think Dallas police got 20 friends and family.

53:50Everybody was found guilty, you know, not very long prison sentences. I think the max was like a couple of years, but they wanted to get everyone who ever touched part of this gang and put them away. Yeah. And I mean, yeah, two years for just basically being friends with Bonnie and Clyde, that's a lot, you know? Yeah. Raymond Hamilton. Aiding and abetting is like, yeah, we're just friends. Right, right. Like they might have stayed at my house and I might have given them food and hid them from the cops. Like ammunition. That's what friends do.

54:21Raymond Hamilton and Joe Palmer, they were both executed in Huntsville, at the prison in Huntsville on May 10th, 1935. And Henry Methvin, he was, so there was this, I said there was a disputed murder of one of the patrolmen that a farmer who supposedly witnessed this said that he saw Bonnie like go over and execute the cop at point blank range blowing his head off with a shotgun and making some grisly, tasteless remark about it. She supposedly wasn't even. Like I'm about to head out or something.

54:52That would have been good. No, something like a look of there, his head bounced like a rubber ball or something like that. Right? So the kind of thing where you're like, wow, she's really despicable. And of course, everybody printed it because this farmer said he saw it. What historians now believe is that it was actually Henry Methvin who actually did the killing and the reason why he wasn't implicated was because his family's plan to bring in Bonnie and Clyde was already in motion. So now the authorities had to cover up his murder

55:22of a cop before he could turn in Bonnie and Clyde. So it was attributed to her and it almost certainly wasn't her. Methvin was eventually paroled in 42 and died six years after that. And the story is he was hit by a train. He was either drunk and got hit by a train or maybe was shoved into a train and murdered. But no one was ever tapped for that. As far as Blanche, she was Buck's, you know, Clyde's sister-in-law and Buck's wife

55:53who was blinded in one eye. She served six years, was paroled in 39 and wrote her book, My Life with Bonnie and Clyde, no colons, and went back to Dallas and, you know, lived a life there. Worked as a taxi dispatcher and a beautician, cared for her dad, got married again. The death car, eventually, you know, it would end up at Buffalo Bill's Resort and Casino in Prem, Nevada. I think that's where it is now. But for a while, it was, you know, a lot of this stuff, like the guns and the cars,

56:24like everyone wanted a piece of this. I think everyone knew it was going to be worth a lot of money. So various family members had to sue various institutions to get this stuff back. And in the case of the guns, Clyde's mom was like, I want those guns back because Clyde had never been convicted of the murders. Like, he was just shot in cold blood. So I want those guns back. And I think the car, like the original car owner, Ruth Warren, was like, hey, that was my car to begin with.

56:54Yeah. The cops can't keep that thing. So she sued to get it back and got it back. Yeah. And before I ended up at the Prim Valley Casino Resort, it was a traveling amusement at like circuses and carnivals and state fairs and stuff. That's right. I don't know entirely that we would just know and everybody would be walking around knowing that there was such a couple as Bonnie and Clyde were it not for that 1967 movie starring Faye Dunaway

57:25and Warren Beatty.

57:27I never saw the movie, so it's not like my understanding of them comes directly from it. But all the people it informed, I think it brought them back up into the popular culture again and they never really

Cultural legacy and listener mail

57:39left since then. It's a good movie. The great Arthur Penn was the director who had another Stuff You Should Know connection in that he directed The Miracle Worker as well. Oh, okay. Yeah, that's, he's basically a friend of the podcast then. Yeah, two Stuff You Should Know movies. Good movie though, but it was the year after the Hays Code ended, you know, the movie codes that tried to rein in sex and violence. And so there was a lot of sex and violence in this movie and glamorization of crime and stuff like that and that ambush scene is like a sort of

58:09a legendary film scene because it shows it all and it's pretty gory. But it was a big, big movie and I think a lot of gangster movies kind of started coming around in its wake because it was so popular. Yeah, it was huge in the UK apparently. And it set the stage for other bloody movies to come. Everything from The Wild Bunch two years later to Pulp Fiction which was originally written by Eleanor Roosevelt to basically every violent movie you've ever seen. Bonnie and Clyde

58:39essentially set the stage for that. That's right. I tell you what, if I'm ever near Prim Nevada, I'm going to go over to Buffalo Bill's Resort and Casino to check that car out. Yeah. I'd like to see that. And his death shirt too. Yeah, they got his shirt. Yeah, it's crazy. I mean, it's full of holes. Yeah, and not in a bad plot sort of way. Boy,

59:05you're full of all the zingers today, aren't you? That little shorty for WD or little 40. Oh yeah, did you catch that one? Yeah, that was a good one. You got any other little zingers? I got no other zingers. Okay, well then that means this is the end of the road for Bonnie and Clyde as far as stuff you should know goes and I think that means it's time for listener mail.

59:28That's right and we did not plan this everyone but here's the listener mail. Hey guys, I wanted to share a moment from the Eleanor Roosevelt episode that gets a gold star for Josh. I have a long history of Josh-like moments where I will add in an absurd impossible fact when talking to my wife such as a local construction site being a dining with your pets restaurant or coming or a lava fields in the California desert being a huge disposal site for used asphalt and my wife over 25 years of marriage has become very canny about my quote unquote facts and it's very difficult

59:59to fool her anymore. However, when Josh said in her writings Eleanor Roosevelt wrote an initial treatment that became the script of Pulp Fiction, I saw my wife process that fact for about 10 seconds with narrow eyes and complete confusion followed by a loud no. So thank you, Josh, for that magic moment and thank you both for all you do. Very long time listener. I started listening when there were only about 100 back episodes so 100 episodes in and that is from Sam and Lisa. Nice. Thanks, Sam. And yeah, that wasn't planned. What a coincidence, huh? As soon as you said it, I was like,

1:00:30oh boy, Josh is going to be so excited. And I am. And I was. And I still will be probably for hours after this. Sam and Lisa, right? That's right. Sam and Lisa, thanks for the email. Thanks for listening to us for so long too. And if you want to be like Sam and Lisa and send us an email, you can do that too. There's nothing stopping you except no access to the internet. If you have access to the internet, you can send us that email to stuffpodcasts at iheartradio.com.

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