Gerald Finzi: Dies Natalis

Podcast updates and upcoming schedule

0:00Hello, and welcome to Sticky Notes, the classical music podcast. My name is Joshua Weilerstein. I'm a conductor, and I'm the music director of the Orchestre National de Lille, and the chief conductor of the Allborg Symphony. This podcast is for anyone who loves classical music, works in the field, or is just getting ready to dive into this amazing world of incredible music. Before we get started, I want to thank my new Patreon sponsors, Carol, Tim, Shana, Robert,

0:34David, Simon, and Jennifer, and all of my other Patreon sponsors for making Season 10 possible. If you'd like to support the show, please head over to patreon.com slash Sticky Notes podcast. And if you are a fan of the show, please take a moment to give us a rating or review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. It is greatly appreciated. I want to mention that this is the second-to-last episode of Season 10. That is because my wife and I are about to have our second child, and so I'm going to be going on a kind of paternity

1:05leave from the podcast. But that doesn't mean the podcast is going to stop entirely. I'm going to be continuing my Schubert mini-episodes on Patreon, and I am going to be having all of my Beethoven symphonies episodes, remixed by the great Charlie Cosella, who has been working with me on all of the recent episodes of the podcast, and I've gotten a lot of wonderful feedback about the sound now. So we'll be re-releasing those over the next few months. We'll have one more episode in a couple of weeks on Rachmaninoff's second symphony, and then we'll go on this break,

1:39but it won't really feel like a break for you, because you'll be hearing lots of Beethoven symphonies again. And then Season 11 will be beginning with new episodes, probably in March, maybe a little bit before that. We'll see how things are going. But really, in the meantime, you're going to be getting all nine Beethoven symphonies in beautiful, wonderful Charlie Cosella sound. So thank you all so much, as always, for all of your support of the show, and I can't wait

2:10to start Season 11. I've got already a lot of really fun episodes planned, some big stuff like Mahler 8, Ravel's Daphnis and Chloe, some other stuff that I won't even tell you yet at the moment. But I'm really excited for it, and thank you again for listening to the show, and I'm also very happy to be sharing with you today, Gerald Finzi's Dies Natalis. Thanks.

Introduction to Gerald Finzi

2:50As I've often said, I love doing Patreon-sponsored episodes, in part because they allow me to discover music I might never have been familiar with otherwise. Today's episode is one of those episodes, because the truth is that before I made this show today, I had heard of Finzi, but that was about it. I knew nothing about the circumstances of his life or about his music, and while I knew this was a hole in my musical knowledge, it was one that I hadn't had time to fill. Well, thanks to Jillian, I got the time to explore this wonderful 20th century composer's works,

3:22and now I'm ready to tell you about him, since I imagine he is an unfamiliar name to many of you listening. Gerald Finzi was a terrific composer and a fascinating figure in 20th century music. He struck out on his own path, refusing to follow the trends of the times, and therefore his music has a special, unique quality. A bit more modest than someone who was trying to change the world, like Schoenberg, but nonetheless music that was deeply human and often inspired by literary interests. Finzi was interested in much more than just music, and amassed a library of over 3,000

3:59volumes of English poetry, philosophy, and literature, much of which ended up appearing in his music. And this powerful marriage of interests in poetry and music produced Finzi's strongest and most enduring works. And since Jillian left it up to me which work of Finzi's to tell you about today, I decided to lean into this love Finzi had for English poetry, and to take a detailed look at a piece that many consider to be Finzi's masterpiece. Dies Natalis, which translates to Day of Birth.

4:34The piece is set to the poetry of the 17th century English metaphysical poet and priest Thomas Traherne, and discusses the topic of innocence, from the first moments a baby enters to the world, to the tarnishing of that innocence as they grow older. This was a topic that Finzi knew all too well, considering the losses of all three of his brothers during his early years. The piece is a profound yet tender meditation on the joys and sufferings of new life, and I can't wait to share it with you today. All this and more is coming right up on Sticky Notes.

Biographical background on Finzi

5:25I wanted to give you a quick biographical look at Finzi, because he's probably unfamiliar to most of you listeners. And as always, I think the biographies of composers are vital to understanding the music they composed. Finzi was born into a British Jewish family in 1901, and was quickly thrust into a world of loss. His father died before he turned eight, and he lost his beloved music teacher, Ernest Farrar, as well as his three brothers during World War I. His solace during these times was poetry, particularly that of Thomas Hardy, but also of Thomas Traherne, who will come up quite

6:00a bit later when we discuss Dies Natalis. He spent time in London where he got to know some of the leading lights of the British musical world, such as Vaughan Williams and Holst. He got a teaching post in London largely thanks to Vaughan Williams, but disliked the big city. And after getting married, he returned to the country with his wife, where he was able to explore his other interests, such as amassing that huge library, but also being involved with collecting rare varieties of English apples and attempting to save them from extinction. Throughout this time, Finzi was

6:34developing his compositional style, and this culminated in Dies Natalis, written in 1939, when Finzi was 38 years old. After World War II, Finzi's popularity as a composer began to rise further, but this was all cut short when Finzi received a diagnosis of Hodgkin's disease, which doctors said gave him five to ten years left to live. Composing furiously during this period, Finzi completed some of his best works, including a cello concerto which was premiered the day before

7:05his death in 1956.

The poetry of Thomas Traherne

7:35Finzi was a person obsessed with the past, whether that was older English literature and poetry or English Baroque music, which Finzi vigorously attempted to bring back into the consciousness of British audiences. This is the context that brings us to Dies Natalis and to Thomas Traherne. As I said in the intro, Traherne was a 17th century English poet as well as a priest, and Finzi was enamored with his poetry. But for the piece Dies Natalis, Finzi treats Traherne's

8:09work very freely. In a wonderful essay on this piece by Matthew McCullough, McCullough points this out when writing about one of the movements in Dies Natalis. Quote, For the Rhapsody, Finzi chose only those paragraphs that he wished from the prose of the first three verses of the third century. From Traherne's original text, Finzi has removed almost all references to religion and the glorification of God. Those which he does keep in the new adapted context portray the deity in a quasi-metaphoric manner, thus removing the religious affiliations

8:45within the text, thereby creating a philosophical and metaphysical undertone. Let's head into the piece

First movement: The Entrada

8:51now, looking for that philosophical and metaphysical undertone. Dies Natalis is a five-movement work, and the orchestration is important. Solo voice and strings. This immediately creates a tenderness that is palpable throughout the piece. The solo voice can be a soprano or a tenor, though it is more often sung by tenors these days, thanks to a legendary recording, and the recording I'm using today, by the singer Wilfred Brown, with the English Chamber Orchestra conducted by Finzi's son, Christopher. The opening movement is an introduction, but it's not anything insubstantial,

9:26since many of its themes will form the core melodic content of later movements.

9:45This opening theme gently flows forward, and somehow you get the sense that this is English music right away. Perhaps it's the echoes of Elgar's Serenade for Strings, both in its orchestration and in the contour of the line. First hear the Elgar, and now the Finzi.

10:42The Finzi has much more dissonance than the Elgar, and that is one of the hallmarks of this piece, a slight ambiguity of harmony that masks the tonal nature of this music. In 1939, it was not particularly fashionable to be writing tonal music, though of course many composers still did it. The way Finzi deals with this is to write in a tonal idiom, but with crunchy dissonances, and most importantly, often a lack of tonal resolution. All of Finzi's thoughts continue

11:16without coming to rest. This creates a flow and a slightly unsettled feeling, despite the beauty of the music.

11:43These gorgeous and tender harmonies also betray a kind of uncertainty. One would think that this piece, literally about the day of birth, would have a brighter character. But Finzi, a deeply contemplative person, is not willing to go there. Also, it can't be avoided saying that this piece was written in 1939, just as the world was about to go to war. I think there are some interesting parallels with Shostakovich's Sixth Symphony that we talked about two weeks ago. There is a profound ambiguity with both pieces, almost like a world in waiting for what is coming next.

12:15The first section ends in G minor, and the second section begins in E flat major, which is one of the most beautiful modulations a composer can do. E flat is the sixth note up from

12:51G, and the flat gives it a particular muted beauty. So one feels like the music has lifted since the key has gone up, but also feels that warmth and muted character of the flatted note. It's a device used by almost all tonal composers, and it never fails to be beautiful. The second section,

13:38is more obviously tonal, and has a walking bass that is going to return in the last movement of the piece. All of the lines begin to overlap, and there is a feeling of great warmth and contentment. All of the lines begin to overlap, and there is a feeling of great warmth and

14:18As it progresses, the music suddenly again becomes less tonal, and more inflected with the ambiguities of the first section. The orchestration also simultaneously gets richer and richer, with Finzi dividing out the string section to add more layers of sound. This seems easy, writing for a rich-sounding orchestra, but it really isn't. Knowing exactly where to write for each instrument to sound its best takes talent and skill, and the layered harmonies here are a great display of Finzi's compositional ability.

15:17This ends up in a luminous C major, which is the softest and calmest moment of the piece so far, even though the walking bass is still present. And like in many pieces, the softest and calmest moment is just the prelude to the emotional climax of the introduction. Finzi expands out the orchestration so that the strings are divided into eleven parts, as Finzi writes for the music to be played passionately. music plays

15:50It's hard to say It's hard to pin down the character of this music

16:22It's certainly not deeply tragic Nor is it ecstatic It's a bit more objective than that And even though it's passionate It sounds to me like it's at a very slight distance as well You might profoundly disagree though So I'm very curious what you think of this moment

16:50This fades away and we return back To the lilting music of the opening Though it's darker than it was before

17:21Which perhaps gives us a clue of the character Of that emotional climax in the middle section As it progresses The music totally loses the gentle movement We've been hearing all along And lands on E minor In a mood of profound stillness And a loss of hope The movement ends in this ambiguous mood

17:56But very interestingly Finzi adds a clue to its intended impact When writing for two bars to be played If the introduction is to be played alone Without the vocal movements Finzi writes a D major chord So perhaps this lament at the end of the movement Is meant to end in some sort of Not necessarily hope But calm and acceptance But in a normal performance of the piece We are led right into the second movement Entitled Rhapsody All the actors

18:26But I'll hold it right in half A new voice So perhaps that's a great chord You have heard that You have heard that Not necessarily hope You have heard that But the moment You have heard that You have heard that You didn't have heard that But you can hear it But the answer You have heard that And you have heard that The Rhapsody

Second movement: The Rhapsody

19:07begins with the same line as the opening of the Entrada, but now with the Traherne text. This is a very free-form movement, and it emphasizes something very unusual, which is that Finzi is not working with poetry in this second movement, but with prose. This presents a lot of problems for a composer, as they have to find a way to create some sense and naturalness in singing vocal lines with these long sentences. The easiest and most common way for composers to work with these kinds of texts is recitative, where

19:39one really gets the sense of speech. But often, Finzi finds a way to do this with long, lyrical lines instead. This all sounds very natural, but it's extremely difficult. And especially with Finzi's instruction that the singer keeps up the tempo. A lot of composers would allow the singer to be free, and there are places later where Finzi allows this. But the rhapsodic and recitative-like nature

20:14of this opening is all done strictly in tempo. Part of the way he hides this is by having the singer sing duples against triplets 1-2-3-1-2-3, creating the feeling of rhythmic instability. But it never feels like he's just trying to fit in the words. But it never feels like he's just trying to fit in the words.

20:47I was saluted and surrounded with innumerable joys. My knowledge was divine. I was entertained like an angel with the works of God. The tender sadness of this piece is really palpable in this movement. Just after an ecstatic

21:32shout of splendor and glory, the voice goes silent, and Finzi turns inward for a quietly aching moment of repose. Remember, all of this piece was written with a sense of tremendous loss, both in the past and potentially in the future, and Finzi was known for his melancholic character in his personal life. One of the most striking moments in the movement is when the motion all comes to a stop,

22:13and over a held chord in the orchestra, the voice also hangs on a single note. It is a moment of wonder, especially in the context of how much contour and motion the music has had so far. Egon and earth did sing my creator's praises, and could not make more melody to Adam than to me. The orchestra continues to be the more contemplative partner for the singer.

22:59But in a magical moment, Finzi stops all the motion again for an A-flat major chord, and the second part of the text begins. I'll read you the whole thing now. The corn was orient and immortal wheat, which never should be reaped or was ever sown. I thought it had stood from everlasting to everlasting. The green trees, when I saw them first, transported and ravished me. Their sweetness and unusual beauty made my heart to leap. And almost mad with ecstasy, they were such strange and wonderful things.

23:33What music would you think would accompany this portrayal of infant innocence? Something joyful, perhaps? Something ecstatic? Well, there is that element in the following music, but it continues to be tinged with sadness. Listen to the accompanying chords, especially when the singer shouts that he was in ecstasy. The corn was orient and immortal wheat, which never should be reaped nor was ever sown.

24:09I thought it had stood from everlasting to everlasting. The green trees, when I saw them first, transported and ravished me. Their sweetness and unusual beauty made my heart to leap. And almost mad with ecstasy. There's something tragic about all this.

24:41Like Finzi is writing about a child who perhaps is now gone. In many ways, this reminds me of the last movement of Mahler's Fourth Symphony, where music of total innocence is belied by the fact that this is a child singing from heaven. Meaning that he must have just died. The third section of the movement is a callback to the middle section of the introduction,

25:16with its warmth and more open feeling of contentment. There are moments of real ravishing beauty in this section. Like this one with two solo violins accompanying the singer, who seems much more supported in their joy and wonder than they were before. Oh, what venerable creatures did the aged seem? Immortal cherubles

25:48And the young men Glittering and sparkling angels For the key line, I knew not whether they were to be born or to die, Finzi separates the strings into nine parts and creates a moment of true passion. This is the crux of the movement and of the piece.

26:20The text shifts now to that of a much older person, who seems to be lamenting all the tragedies of life that he witnessed, but was naive to as a child. Surprisingly, the music here is not nearly as dark as one would expect. There is something yearning about it, or perhaps nostalgic, but definitely not tragic. As the singer reaches up for the line, I saw all in the peace of Eden. But all things abided eternally

26:50I knew not that there were sins or complaints or laws I dreamed not of poverty's contentions or vices All tears and quarrels were hidden from mine eyes

27:23I saw all in the peace of Eden.

27:35There's one line left in the movement. Everything was at rest, free, and immortal. We've had many different emotions set up in this movement, from melancholy, to a kind of nostalgic view with the innocence of youth, to yearning, and now for the final line, Finzi has to make a choice. Let's see what he does. Everything was at rest,

28:07free and immortal.

28:22In my opinion,

28:52this is pretty breathtaking. The singer is a loud G major, which brings a feeling of peace, though that peace is disrupted with an F sharp in the bass, creating that dissonance that was so present in the introduction. Then, through a series of chords, Finzi touches on F major, hope, and then finally ends on A minor, a key that for many composers symbolized death. In a movement about the naivete of infancy and childhood, in a movement about the naivete of infancy and childhood, Finzi chooses to end on the key of death.

29:23The Rhapsody is by far the longest movement in the piece, and the end of it is the first time we have a break in the action.

Third movement: The Rapture

29:30This takes us to the third movement, entitled The Rapture. Finzi marks for the movement to be played fast and joyously, though the beginning could easily be interpreted as something a bit more threatening.

29:54But it quickly resolves into a dance, or as Finzi called it, a dance of delight. This substantial orchestral introduction is full of light and rhythmic play. As Finzi takes a seemingly conventional oompa-oompa rhythm, and has the violins almost improvise over it, creating tons of surprises and games that really bring out this sense of delight.

30:37The melodic line in this movement is borrowed from the introduction, further cementing the connections in this piece. Listen back to back, and you'll hear it right away. This is a hymn of praise, a movement much less ambiguous in character than the Rhapsody movement,

31:08and the singer is given huge leaps of register up and down and open fifths and fourths, almost like church bells ringing. This is a Rondo movement

31:41where the main theme comes back repeatedly with intervening sections in between. We've just heard the A section, and we will now hear the first intervening section, which is drawn straight from the opening of the introduction movement. We're back to that feeling of a contentment mixed with just a tinge of melancholy.

32:11And this intervening section is quite short, as with a quick cellarando, we're right back to the A section music again. But this is quickly interrupted as well by the C music of the movement, where a melancholy and dark C minor emerges. Though as the singer enters, we are treated to a much more comforting E flat major. To complete the stanza, Finzi returns back to his A music and allows the singer to hold a truly ecstatic high B flat on the words, The stars do move, the sun doth shine,

32:42to show his love. The music starts to break out into a feeling of true celebration, until it suddenly stops dead in its tracks.

33:29The final stanza begins with a shock. Over the words, Oh, how divine am I! The music is extremely dissonant and even violent. It brings back the feeling of tragedy that has hovered over this piece from the very beginning and is certainly the darkest moment of the piece. Oh, how divine am I!

34:01To all the sacred wells, this life and hell... These final 45 seconds of the movement are so striking, in part because the text seems at such odds with the music, as if Finzi interprets this text as almost forcing an expression of joy. It culminates in a surprising C major, a climax that feels a bit unearned and out of character. Perhaps Finzi is not such a believer in this text

34:33as he made himself out to be. The music is not such a believer in this text Who mine did make the same What and divine The fourth movement of Dies Natalis

Fourth movement: Wonder

35:14is entitled Wonder and is an arioso, an A-B-A structure. It is much more introspective than the third movement, and the writer Diana McVeigh says this about the music, Quote, Wonder is almost painfully introspective. The closest possible imitations and semitone clashes make for dense harmony. There is a sense of hearing private devotion. I think there's a lot to this as Finzi has the strings put their mutes on, creating a whole different color

35:45for the beginning of this movement. The vocal line that follows seems to be in contemplation rather than rapture, as it was in the previous movement. Listen again to the entrance of the vocal line

36:23and then the resolutions of each phrase of the stanza. Finzi alternates back and forth between major and minor key resolutions that don't exactly feel unstable in a sort of violent way, but they feel unsettled, as if just like in the rapture movement, it's hard for Finzi to come down on this text in a black and white way. It's a bit like Finzi can't decide which perspective this music comes from, his or the child's, and that adds to its emotional ambiguity. How like an angel came, I doubt

37:05How bright are all things here There is, a little bit like in the second movement, a tender passion here. I think what makes this piece so moving is this perspective switch. Sometimes it feels like the singer and the orchestra are inhabiting two different worlds. The singer, the voice of the child,

37:36and the orchestra, the voice of the adult. That sense of loss hangs over the entire piece, as I've been saying, and I think it's the most palpable in these tender moments. The works I did appear Oh, how their glory did me crown The world resembled his eternity In which my soul did walk

38:15This reaches its peak in the middle section of this movement, as a wistful violin solo accompanies the second stanza. After a brief but passionate climax where Finzi divides the orchestra again into nine parts for a wonderfully rich and dense harmonic moment, the music quickly dies away again as we head towards the third stanza.

38:39The skies in their magnificence The lovely lively air Oh, how divine How soft How sweet How fair The stars The stars Did entertain

39:09My sense And all the walks Of God So bright And pure So rich And great The stars Could seem As if The third stanza begins with a very surprising dissonance right on the downbeat. Listen closely again.

39:39Our native Heaven These moments of pain are so important in the piece, and they are also important for the performer to bring out. Otherwise, this can sound like slightly inconsequential music. But it isn't. That deep pathos lying underneath the surface has to be brought out for this music to have the intended emotional impact. Within my bones did grow And while my God

40:11Did all his glorious show I felt a vigor In my sense That was all Finzi starts to move the tempo forward For the culmination of this movement. Starting on the text Felt a vigor in my sense That was all spirit I within did flow With seas of life Like wine This music once again Briefly breaks out Before moving back inward And like the rapture movement We hear another

40:41Poignant silence Just after the most intense moment Of the movement. And again, like in the rapture movement The harmonic choice at the end of this movement Is a huge surprise.

41:12Over the final lines I nothing in the world Did know But twas divine Finzi suddenly shifts To a radiant D major I nothing in the world Did know But twas divine To me, this is a much more earned shift

42:01than in the rapture movement. It feels like a surprise But it is less extroverted Less punchy And less in a way Desperate. I love the ending of this movement And even though some consider this To be a weaker movement In the context of the rest of the piece I think it stands strongly with it.

Fifth movement: Salutation

42:18Matthew McCullough In his wonderful essay on this piece Talks about the final movement Entitled Salutation Being the most strongly influenced by Bach. Finzi was a huge admirer of Bach And in true British fashion Was an honorary member Of the Bach Cantata Club. One of the things that Finzi And of course so many others Admired about Bach Was his counterpoint Which happened to be One of Finzi's weaknesses As a young composer. McCullough relates That Finzi struggled with counterpoint Under his strict teacher

42:48Sir Edward Berstow Who believed strongly That discipline was a better teacher Than inspiration. Later in his studies Finzi learned counterpoint From R.O. Morris Which he much preferred. And he couldn't resist Getting a dig in at Berstow When Berstow wrote to him To praise his progression In counterpoint. Finzi responded Quote Yes dear old ECB Referring to Berstow But the counterpoint Is nothing to do With the rubbish You tried to teach me For a year. I showed extraordinary Common sense In jabbering against it.

43:20I learned counterpoint By writing it as music And that's what I'm going on doing With R.O.M. Referring to Morris. Not your sort of counterpoint This brings us To the final movement Which is just about Four minutes long And which is profoundly serene It begins with a viola melody Marked to be played In a singing But simple way A perfect way To describe this Perfectly English melody That appears Over a walking bass. This movement is incredibly rich

44:14With counterpoint And even the walking bass Seems to come from Bach McCullough points out That the walking bass Is quite reminiscent Of Bach's cantata Wachet auf Ruft uns die Stimme That the walking bass Is quite reminiscent Of Bach's cantata Of Bach's cantata Of Bach's cantata Of Bach's cantata elevate slowed down To the 그리고 Ake úr Ake ut asked Ar inhabitation All Foods Up Bhans Abuela che Can In metres Ake ud gan

44:46The other striking thing about this movement in relation to the other movements is its harmonic stability. Gone are those ambiguous harmonies or the major-minor oscillations. Instead, the music rests in a serene G major, as if the wonder of the text is all that is needed to

45:20sustain itself. And finally, the orchestra and the singer are at one with each other.

45:27These little limbs, these eyes and hands, which here I find, this panting heart wherewith my life begins, where have ye been? Behind what curtain were ye from me hid so long? Where was in what

45:59the bed? One of the reasons that the Bach comparison is so fruitful is that there are at times almost archaic harmonies that remind one of early English Baroque music as well, another obsession of Finzi's, and something that one senses throughout the piece. I think it's the strongest here. Listen again to the second stanza, and particularly to the harmony underneath the vocal line. The third stanza, is the first stanza, and the third stanza, is the first stanza, and the third stanza.

46:52Finzi begins with a breathtaking depiction of the text, from dust I rise, and out of nothing now awake, these brighter regions which salute my eyes. It's rare in the piece that Finzi tone paints, trying to depict something directly in the text. But here, I think he absolutely does, with a rising line that really feels like something beginning to take shape. And importantly, the walking bass and the motion stop for a moment. But once everything is established, Finzi brings it back in for the rest of the stanza, with the text,

47:25A gift from God I take, the earth that sees the light the lofty skies, The sun and stars are mine, if these I prize. From dust I rise, and out of nothing now awake, these brighter regions which salute my eyes,

47:56A gift from God I take, the earth that sees the light the lofty skies, The final stanza begins as if there is no indication that this is going to be the end of the piece. A stranger here, strange things doth meet, strange glories see, strange treasures launch,

48:34in this fair world appear, strange all and new to me, but that they mine should be whole night before. Finzi creates such a beautiful flow to this music, that you can really feel like it's just part of the fabric of the earth, and that it never actually comes to an end. But of course it will. Slowly the violins fade out,

49:06and the violas, who began this movement with their serene melody, will bring this beautiful cantata to a close. That strangest is all Yet brought to pass As many of these Patreon episodes have been lately, this piece was yet another discovery for me.

Reflections on the music

49:47This is a style of music that I personally have never really embraced, but I find it, and the subject matter, quite intoxicating. This is music with a very different aim than that of the late romantics we've been covering. A kind of tender sadness and gentle melancholy pervades this music. It feels like music for the autumn, with falling leaves and gentle rain showers. Though I think this is, as I've been saying, the core of the magic of this piece. The texts Finzi chose of Traherne should suggest spring, renewal, new life.

50:19But the music suggests, at times, the opposite. This essential contrast is what makes both sides of this piece, the naivete and the innocence, and the sadness and the melancholy, work together in this beautiful way. This is a piece that stays with you after you hear it. Not in a grab-you-by-the-shirt-collar way, but with a tender hold that takes a while to fade. Thank you so much to Jillian for sponsoring this episode on behalf of her father. Thank you to Charlie Cosella, who mixed this episode.

50:49And thank you for listening to Sticky Notes today. We'll have some more exciting stuff for you in a couple of weeks, so don't miss our next episode. If you'd like to get in touch and ask a question, please send a message to stickynotespodcast at gmail.com. And if you'd like to support the podcast monetarily, just head over to patreon.com slash stickynotespodcast. Thanks, and I'll talk to you again after a while.

51:31Thank you.