Jack Harlow - Say Hello

Introduction

0:00You're listening to Song Exploder, where musicians take apart their songs and piece by piece tell the story of how they were made. I'm Rishikesh Hirwe.

0:10I'm going to be on tour for the next few weeks, and all the dates are at songexploder.net slash live. I'm going to be playing songs from my new album, In the Last Hour of Light, with a full band, and I'm going to be talking about the making of my album with a special guest moderator in each city. I get to be the interviewee instead of the interviewer. So I'm going to be joined by Jason Manzoukas, Samin Nosrat, Allison Russell, Joshua Molina, Ken Jennings and John Roderick, Min Jin Lee, and Adam Scott. It's a really personal album, and I hope you can make it out to one of the shows.

0:41You can get tickets and more info at songexploder.net slash live.

Sponsor Message

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Jack Harlow Interview

1:36Jack Harlow is from Louisville, Kentucky, and started performing and releasing music in 2015 when he was in high school. In 2020, he released his first album, which went double platinum. He was nominated for a Grammy for Best Rap Performance. He's had multiple number one hits across his first three albums. And for his fourth album, Monica, which just came out in March 2026, he switched things up dramatically. And I was curious, how and why? How did someone who had so much success as a rapper approach a new way of making music?

2:07So, for this episode, I spoke to Jack Harlow about the song, Say Hello, which is the closing track on Monica. My name is Jack Harlow. I was working on a different album for two years after Jack made my last one.

2:38And it was good, but I didn't think it was exciting or surprising. It just wasn't distinct enough. And it also felt like something I'd done before, which, you know, repeating yourself is boring. And I was getting more and more frustrated, and I was dreading going to the studio. And, you know, as soon as recording becomes work, you're in trouble, I think. Not that there's no work ethic involved. Of course, sometimes you have to grind it out. But when you're trying to get inspired, and it feels like labor, it's something to take as a sign.

3:09So, finally, I just took three weeks off. I remember talking about it with my engineer right before I took that three-week break. And sort of having to reconcile it in front of him, almost a little embarrassed, saying, yeah, man, you know, I just got to think. And he said it out loud for me. I was already thinking it, but he put it really well. He's like, I think you just need to choose a North Star that is distinct and definitive. So, I took a lot of walks. You know, I think part of the reason I was dreading going to the studio is I had just moved to New York.

3:40And I would look out the occasional window I might have in a studio. I'd go outside and say, wow, I'd rather be out here than be in there recording. And so, I decided to think about what do I actually want to do? What am I listening to? What does my ear crave? I've always been attracted to melody, and I listen to a lot of melodic music. I find I prefer melodic music, and I think there's something so timeless and emotional about melody. A lot of my early stuff had a lot more melody involved, and then it's almost like I found my rap tone, and I was getting such a great response from it.

4:18And it became something I could lean on so consistently that I think I got further and further away from melody. But the genre of neo-soul as a whole was super influential to me, just how pleasant it was. So, I wanted something that in 20 years I'll still like the sound of.

4:38About three years ago, I first called Wind of Axel Arvid a loop maker from Norway. And there's a lot of loop makers in hip-hop that are over in Europe that are almost faceless to the rest of the industry and just send loops through email to big-name producers. So, to me, he was another one of those. And he was talented, but I didn't know much more about him. And he worked with my longtime friend and collaborator, Two for One, who I grew up with. But he introduced me to Axel and brought him to Kentucky for the first time.

5:11And he was just somebody I met in passing, and we had a couple songs that we worked on together. And then sometime in 2024, my little brother, Clay Harlow, is a producer, too. He's on this album. And he became closer with Axel as well. And he asked, could he bring Axel to a session? So, Axel came around, and we started to get to know each other, and we started to realize there were parallels in our interests and our natures. He and I bonded over R&B. We were attracted to similar melodies and sounds, so he became the clear go-to guy and executive producer for me.

5:46I could tell you a few of the rules that we followed. You know, I think rules are so, so wonderful to end up somewhere specific. And I'd say the number one, when Axel first got to New York, the first thing I said after those three weeks of deliberating were, I don't want to make anything with braggadocio or overt egoism. You know, I want to make something that I think can age really well. And I was, at the time, in a mindset of ego is weighing down the quality of the music as it gets older.

6:17So, I was interested in no braggadocio. I was interested in only being melodic. So, singing the whole time. No cursing. Curse words can be a crutch sometimes. They can also be exciting and add a punctuation to things, but that's not what I was looking for this time. So, I like the challenge, as a writer, of not having any crutches. And then, all the instruments we eventually decided had to be live, except for the drums. The drums could be programmed to keep it hip-hop, but, you know, no synths coming out of the computer.

6:48The bass, the guitar, horns, strings, everything had to be live. So, those were some of the things we lived by, and we knew we'd end up somewhere. Of the songs that made the album, Say Hello is the earliest. I showed up to the studio, and Axl played this beat, made up at the time of Jermaine Paul's bass notes, Axl on Rhodes, and he had done the drums as well. And he just played me the beat.

7:21I just sat there with shades on for 20 minutes listening to it, just steeping myself in it.

7:28You know, I was very moody in these sessions. I think the stakes felt high to me. I just scrapped an album, and I cared a lot about how this was going to end up. And I don't think moodiness is the best response, but I'm a naturally moody person. And sometimes I walk in there and just, I just need a second to warm up socially. And this was one of those days where I walked in a little moody, and sometimes I just want to listen to the beat. I don't want to talk about what I think of it or how it got made.

7:59I just want to hear it for a while. And I think this was one of those days where I just wanted to let it play. But I immediately was like, oh, this feels Slum Village. This feels Outkast. This just feels like part of the music I love. It felt very in line with the reason I started this project as a whole. And so I knew as soon as I heard it, I was like, okay, there's something here.

8:24And then we started playing with melodies. The first few weeks of this album, when we were still figuring out what it was, I was recording on almost everything he played because I didn't want to be too rigid about what I thought it should be or how I wanted it to sound. So despite the moodiness I was describing, there was a general optimism and openness to everything I was hearing because I just wanted to see where we might land. And we could filter it later. We can decide where we're going later. But this was still when I was in a zone of, let's try it.

8:55I mean, a lot of these songs were made just with taking the SM7 out, holding it in my hand and just doing what feels good, which was a relatively new process for me, something that I've been avoiding the last few years. I've been so statement first, lyrics first, that I think I've missed out or just neglected the improvisational nature of just playing with melody and making it nonsensical to start. And that's how this song started. It was kind of nonsensical and just finding a melody that felt good.

9:26I would lay down a melody for four bars that I really liked and I'd say, while I'm still flowing, let me move on to a different melody. All different melodies of just word vomit. And sometimes while you're scatting the melody, a word will come to you.

10:07Sometimes you find words that lock right into place and that's when it feels really good. You don't feel like you're compromising. You feel like it's you and the universe cooking something up. Maybe I'll get at you when my life gets slow.

10:20The first line, maybe I'll get at you when my life gets slow. As soon as I said that, I was like, OK, I kind of know what this could be about because I've expressed that sentiment before or at least thought that sentiment in my head. Like we don't have to. This doesn't have to be a right now thing, but maybe when things slow down, it'll align. And maybe it won't. It's not just my decision. It's not just me saying when things slow down for me, I'll be available for you. It's maybe you'll be available. Maybe I will. Maybe the stars will align is that sentiment. But one day I'll be walking by the place you'll stay.

10:53Ooh, oh. It felt like a mosaic of memories. I feel like I've had a good amount of stop and starts with people that it wasn't negative. It didn't end in an ugly way. But sometimes you begin something and the timing isn't right. But there's still a positive feeling. You still like something about them. You know, it's you're not dumping them. They're not dumping you. It's just, huh, this doesn't seem to make sense for us right now.

11:23Up to this point, my vocal has been this singular, laid back, sometimes monotonous rap vocal. And, you know, I didn't want to just make new music. I want it to be heard in a way I've never been heard. And it thrills me that a few of these songs people have to ask, is that you? Because I think it's exciting to access new parts of your voice and stretch yourself. I'm missing you in the shape of you.

11:54I'll visit you when the day comes. I'm giving up control. I'm giving up control of you. You know I want you back. You know I come running back. Sometimes I... In my head, there's only so many sweet spots in my voice. And when I find the sweet spot, whatever notes those are, whatever octave it is, that's what I can accomplish on this song. And, you know, this album was not about showing people how good of a singer I am.

12:25It was about showing people my choice and curation. I'm not looking to show people, oh my God, he's actually an incredible singer. I'm looking to show people I can make music that sounds really good. And whatever way I get there is the best way I get there. But I wanted to make something that was less about my talent being on display and more my taste. I mean, I remember early in my career wanting to make a commercial splash and almost looking down on stuff that wasn't taking enough of a risk to be commercial.

13:02So now I find myself on the other end of the pendulum saying, well, I'm more interested in making this type of music right now. There's things I'm still driven by. There's things I'm still insecure about. You know, I still have a status anxiety from time to time, like anyone that's trying to climb. I would love to catch a smash over this album, but that's not why I made it.

Game Mixtape

13:26More with Jack Harlow after this.

13:32Song Exploder is sponsored by the game Mixtape. And to learn more, I talked to one of the creators. My name is Johnny Galvatron. I'm the writer and director of Mixtape. It's about three teenagers on their last day of high school going to their final party together, listening to the greatest mixtape of all time. And where did the idea for this game originally come from? Just wanting to make a game based around That's Good by Devo, which is the greatest song of all time. There's just something alive in that song that speaks to me. And it's very much a game about being a music lover and someone who appreciates music and knows where to place it in their life.

14:08And then game-wise, there are different kinds of mechanics. There's different kinds of music. There's different kind of art style. So the game as a whole should be viewed as a mixtape and kind of this artistry of arrangement. And so how is the game itself like a mixtape? So usually in a video game, you will have a standard set of mechanics, which might be fighting. But in a mixtape, there's different people saying different things with different vibes. And you want each song to be given its own experience, its own life.

14:39And you want to use the medium. That's what's kind of important about making video games. You want to use the medium to show what the music is showing. We have this song, BJ Thomas, most of all, where a friend gets betrayed and she floats back through town and just kind of knocks everything out of her way as she floats through town and you control her. And like, what a beautiful way to kind of use that song and to use a mechanic and input to show the betrayal and the despondency and the sadness. And when you can get all those things mixed together and hit those crescendos where you hit between video game, music, narrative, that's the goal, that's the diamond that you aim for.

15:17I think you would really dig it. Mixtape comes out May 7th on console and PC. Check it out at mixtape.game.

Health Sponsor

15:26Thanks to Function for supporting Song Exploder and my general help. I've been traveling these days a lot for my album release shows. And I remember that someone once said to me, part of the job of a touring musician is to make sure that you don't get sick. I do have a tendency to get sick when I travel a lot. And the function tests that I took revealed that I was deficient in vitamin D and magnesium. So I made changes to my diet and my vitamin intake. Because it's one thing to say, oh, I'm trying to be healthier. And another thing to actually have the information that lets you do something about it in a targeted and effective way.

16:02So check your health the way that I do, with 160 plus lab tests a year for $365. Plus the ability to dive deeper into your results through Function's connections to platforms like ChatGPT and Claude. Join at functionhealth.com slash songexploder or use the gift code songexploder25 for a $25 credit towards your membership.

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17:27So like I said, I come up with all these melodies without troubling myself at all about the words. And then we go into puzzle piece mode and say, cool, let's actually do some of the work, the labor of piecing these together. And I know a lot of artists that hate the lyrics part. You know, that's why so many artists work with writers because they want all of music. They want their whole career to be instinct. And I relate to that, but I enjoy language enough that I enjoy the puzzle piecing of lyrics. And it does get frustrating sometimes, but I like both sides. With my career, I end up meeting women that they live a life that is totally unlike mine and maybe is a little slower and more stable.

18:20And it's me essentially saying, maybe you would actually enjoy living the life that is familiar to you and is more conventional than mine. And maybe that is what's best for you. I definitely zeroed in on a poignant acceptance and melancholy over change and how things change. And, you know, the nostalgia of looking back on this time you shared with somebody, but accepting that it's a thing of the past and who knows what the future holds.

18:52The emotion got more specific and it gave all the musicians something to work with. Jermaine plays a six-string bass and he would lay foundational stuff and then later come back and play something interactive on top of it.

19:16And then Robert Glasper is playing all that piano. Robert Glasper and I had worked on some music before that never came out, so I brought him into the fold.

19:35But I'm such a minimalist by nature that sometimes I have to force myself to give things these richer details. And a lot of it was so jazzy that I had to grow used to it.

20:03So the maximalism versus minimalism was a huge thing with this song. And there was a lot of conflict between me and Axl over how much of this busy piano we were going to keep.

20:18Because I definitely wanted Robert to make it a more rich, dynamic song. You know, we didn't want it to be this loop that had no moments of life. I think it's good to have moments in a song that occur once as opposed to it looping like a machine. But it was definitely us having to find a balance because, you know, at the end of the day, it was Axl's job to get a certain level of complexity and musicality that was important to him across the line. But my requirement I issued to him was I enjoy minimalism.

20:50I enjoy simple, palatable music. And at the same time, I want to be pushed out of my comfort zone. And so it really came down to that test for him of get as much complexity as you can across the line here without it disturbing my enjoyment. And that was his, in a lot of ways, that sums up his role for this album, to be honest.

21:14A fellow named Stefan Clement came in during post-production and laced a good set of these songs with beautiful trumpet.

21:27My voice is so limited and my range is so limited. And, you know, I don't think of myself as a very dynamic singer. I was looking for any opportunity to lift some of my melodies and make them breezier.

21:57Raven Lene is one of the best singers of our generation, in my opinion. I remember I saw her at an open mic in Atlanta in 2017 and was blown away at her voice even back then. And I booked her for the Gazebo Festival I threw in Louisville in 2024. So we actually met at the festival. Sometimes you meet artists and you're like, cool, they're in their own world.

22:28Like, there's not going to be a lot of synergy. But sometimes you meet somebody and you're like, I don't know, there's an understanding here. And I think we had that really early. There was a warmth between us. She came to New York and we hung out and talked about life and music and became friends in a real way. And so by the time I was looking for some vocals, it felt like an organic way to stamp our friendship, to be honest. And so she came to Electric Lady and laid them right in front of me. That's a melody she came up with on the spot.

23:07And then impromptu, she was like, why don't you sing this with me? And so you'll hear she and I started singing together. There are these bird calls and nature sounds in the music. And I was wondering, where did that come from? This is one of those things that was there from the beginning. It was part of the beat. And, you know, I love the park.

23:38And I wouldn't even call myself a nature guy. You know, I don't like going camping. I don't care to go on hikes, really. I'm not Mr. Nature. But I do like going to the park and I like how it makes me feel. And I think that captured that and it captured how it feels to be outside in New York. It just felt right.

24:03You don't always know how things are going to end. But I hate to end anything on bad terms. I'd like for everything to end in a way that allows us to greet each other when we see each other. You know, it doesn't mean we have to go on another date. It doesn't mean we have to rekindle. But it would be nice if we can say hello to each other. It should be like, hey, how you doing? Maybe I can give you a hug. And I think there's an optimism to it that I, as a person, believe in. I don't know if there's a song that sums up the theme of the album more than this song to me, actually.

24:37There's something obscure about it. There's something more vague and impressionistic about it that I don't know if I've accomplished in some of my other work. I love the way we just kind of captured this loose, blurry feeling in a bottle. And now, here's Say Hello by Jack Harlow in its entirety. Maybe I'll get at you when my life gets sold

25:24I'll be understanding if you change your name Maybe you prefer to live a life, you know

25:36But one day I'll be walking by the place you stay Ooh-oh Ooh-oh Say hello Ooh-oh Ooh-oh Say hello Ooh-oh Maybe I'll get at you when my life gets sold I'll be understanding if you change your name

26:00Maybe you prefer to live a life, you know One day I'll be walking by the place you stay I'll be walking by the place you stay Ooh-oh Ooh-oh Ooh-oh Say hello Ooh-oh Ooh-oh Ooh-oh Ooh-oh Say hello Say hello I'm missing you in the shape of you I'll visit you when the day comes I'm giving up control I'm giving up control

26:32I'm giving up control of you You know I want you bad You know I come running bad Sometimes I'll listen to what you say to me My principles are so painful I'm giving up control I'm giving up control I'm giving up control I'm giving up control of you Maybe I'll get at you when my life gets sold

26:58I'll be understanding if you change your name

27:03Maybe you prefer to live a life, you know One day I'll be walking by the place you stay Ooh-oh Ooh-oh Ooh-oh Say hello Ooh-oh Ooh-oh Ooh-oh Say hello Say hello Like hoes

27:40Ooh-oh Ooh-oh Ooh-oh Ooh-oh Ooh-oh Thank you.

28:21Maybe I'll get at you when my life gets old I'll be understanding if you change your thing Maybe you prefer to live a life you know One day I'll be walking about a place you stay Ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, say hello, ooh, ooh Ooh, ooh, ooh, say hello, ooh, ooh Maybe I'll get at you when my life gets old

28:53I'll be understanding if you change your thing Maybe you prefer to live a life you know One day I'll be walking about a place you stay Ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, say hello, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh,

29:37Go to songexploder.net to learn more. You'll find links to buy or stream Say Hello.

30:08This episode was produced by me, Craig Ely, Mary Dolan, and Kathleen Smith, with production assistance from Tiger Biscop. The episode artwork is by Carlos Lerma, and I made the show's theme music and logo. Song Exploder is a proud member of Radiotopia from PRX, a network of independent, listener-supported, artist-owned podcasts. You can learn more about our shows at radiotopia.fm. And if you'd like to hear more from me, subscribe to my newsletter. You can find a link to it on the Song Exploder website.

30:39You can also get a Song Exploder t-shirt at songexploder.net slash shirt. I'm Rishikesh Hirwe. Thanks for listening. I want to tell you about another Radiotopia show called Proxy. It's hosted by Yo-Ai Shaw, who you might know from her time hosting Invisibilia from NPR.

31:10On Proxy, Yo-Ai tackles your niche emotional conundrums. Maybe you have a question that is impossible to get answers for because no one in your life can relate. Or the person you wish you could talk to about it isn't in your life anymore. So Yo-Ai scours the world for the perfect stranger for you to talk to, someone who's been in the same situation or has relevant experience and can hopefully provide the insight that you're looking for. It's emotional investigative journalism at your service. Listen to Proxy with Yo-Ai Shaw wherever you get your podcasts. Listen to Proxy with Yo-Ai Shaw.