Hank Green: What No One Tells You About the Algorithm

Science chats with Hank Green

0:00Ten years I've been trying to figure out how to do science on whether butt hair prevents chafing, and I still haven't gotten it done.

0:08Because when you had chemo, you lost your butt hair. It's true. Yeah, yeah, it was great. Way preferable to the alternative, I have to say. Did you have any less chafing? Well, I wouldn't know. I wasn't jogging. You know what I'm saying? Do-do-do, science chats. With our favourite nerds. Yeah! Hi, I'm Wendy Zuckerman, and this is Science Versus. Today on the show, Hank Green.

0:41Hank is one of the OG science YouTubers. He has been doing it for almost 20 years, racking up millions of followers, bazillions of views, as he talks about the weird and wonderful world of science. And Hank has had this remarkable front-row seat into the internet as it's morphed from this curious, exciting new thing to the cesspool of AI slop that it is today. And by making viral content for all this time, nearly two decades, he has been able to see

1:17how the algorithm has changed and what it takes to make a viral video these days. So, in our chat, we talk about what people tend to misunderstand about the algorithm, and we're going to talk about big stuff, like where AI is heading, and will a computer ever suffer? Plus, a few years ago, Hank was diagnosed with Hodgkin lymphoma and became his own science experiment, learning many things about his body and cancer, including why chemo can make your pee cloudy.

1:50And it is a surprisingly inspirational science story. So, my chat with Hank Green is coming up just after the break.

2:04This episode is brought to you by Adobe Firefly, the all-in-one creative studio with AI-powered image and video generation. Built for today's creative process, Firefly helps you generate, edit, and experiment fast. Because the asks aren't getting smaller, and the timelines? Woo, yeah, still tight. With all the best creative AI models in one place, Firefly brings your ideas to life. Learn more at adobe.com slash firefly. Get your tickets now for The Dog Stars.

2:40It's no surprise how fast civilization can disappear. Go! Out there, just kill or be killed. Jacob Elordi. There are people out there. They need our help. Josh Brolin. Shoot first, and inquire afterwards. Margaret Qualley. Ow! Okay, tough guy. And Guy Pearce. Arm up! The Dog Stars. Directed by Ridley Scott. In theaters August 28th. Get tickets now. Rated R. Under 17, not admitted without parents.

Working in a lab and starting YouTube

3:08Today, we are talking to the one and only Hank Green. Hello. Welcome to the show. As far as I know, it's just me.

3:16So, before you were a YouTuber, you worked at a fungicide company. I did. Yeah. Correct. Was it fungicide? No. Oh, no. No? Oh. It was a really weird job because I was the only person in the lab. Oh. So, there's a lot of, like, managing supplies. Oh, gosh. But then in addition to that, there was nobody else in the building. Like, it was just me and fungicide and liquid nitrogen, four armadillos out the back door,

3:49a bunch of wasps, and a lot of produce. So, you and the armadillos not having the best time of your life. No, yeah. Pretty bored. It was weird because I'd, like, been in college for four years and I'd been socializing all of the time. And then it was just, like, back to my parents' house, long commute, by myself in a building. Yeah. So, then in 2007, you see a little baby website called YouTube. What makes you— Many, many years went by, by the way.

4:19I went to grad school and a bunch of other stuff happened. But, yes, I saw this little website called YouTube. The site itself was pretty crappy in 2007. Oh, yeah. Yeah. And, in fact, like, our biggest inspiration, Zay Frank, he hosted everything on his own. He just, like, uploaded QuickTime files to his server and paid the bills. And he got people to, like, crowdfunded money so that he could stream on his own website. And that is how the biggest video blog project that had ever existed happened in 2006.

4:52It's crazy. It's crazy. It's crazy. So, what made you think, I want to be on this? It was John, mostly. Your brother. My brother, John, was obsessed with a couple of these video blog projects. And I am three years younger than him. And it took me 40 years of my life before I was willing to accept that there might be something that he thought was cool that wasn't extremely cool. You know? Got it. Just, like, that kind of, like, younger brother vibe where if John liked a band, that's because

5:24that band was the best band. And if he liked online video, that's because his online video was the best thing, which was amazing for me because I'd never questioned it. I just was like, I am in all the way. And I was in all the way and remain in all the way. So, I thought we could watch your very first video from 2007 together. This is science versus. This isn't YouTuber versus. We'll get to that. We'll get to the weird science. Okay. But first, trip down memory lane. Okay. There it is. There it is.

5:55Okay. Hey, John.

5:59I guess you've heard by now. Auto power off. Still some glitches to work out. Hello, John. By now you have received my message that we will no longer be communicating through any textual means. There's no more instant messaging, no more emailing, only video blogging. I've learned a lot. Now that I know the background, it really does have little brother energy. When you do think about kind of where YouTube and the broader internet is today and you watch that kind of beautiful dinky video, what does it make you think of?

6:32It really makes me want to re-edit it. And then there's also the piece where I feel quite strongly that we never could have made it if we weren't starting at the very beginning. And that the quality of a person's first video now has to be so, like, so much higher. Like, it has to be much more written. It has to be much more charismatic. They're like, there's nothing charismatic about that poor child.

7:04But it's just gotten, there's so much value in being a YouTuber that was not there then. And that's great. But at the same time, it means that, like, you don't get to have it happen unless you're really hungry for it, which we weren't that hungry for it.

How virality and algorithms changed

7:24We were just messing around. Your very first viral video was Axio Deathly Hallows. Correct. Whoa, Axio, Deathly Hallows, Incendio. Book sales embargoes, it'll be like Phoenix, tears on a broken nose. So when you think of what makes a video go viral back then versus now. Yeah. So the big difference now is that it used to be that virality was like a contagion, which is why it was called that, where it was like, I saw this and so I'm going to share it with

7:58five people. And then those five people are going to share it with five people. And it is a cultural contagion. And that doesn't happen anymore. Yeah. That is no longer how virality happens. Virality happens entirely through recommendation algorithms. And so that's the big difference. And so that does, to some extent, mean that you are playing a different game. Everyone has already seen 20,000 videos this week. They're going to see 20,000 more by the end of the week. And the recommendation algorithms are sort of trying to find the thing that is holding

8:31on to people's attention the most, getting the most clicks. There's like a viral YouTube video that's been, you know, slow burning for the last six years of a high school band playing a Weezer song. And they start playing. And the moment the first, the singer's about to sing the first line, the keyboard stand collapses. And everybody in the auditorium is just like perfectly silent.

9:01Okay. But then that's the beautiful virality. So that's just like a regular viral video. But like most of what is happening is people telling a story that is trying to capture and hold your attention. Yes. And also on YouTube, trying to put it inside of some kind of frame that will, you know, be like, oh, I kind of actually had it. Like, I feel like I need this information. And a lot of times that information comes in the form of a threat. So if I like made a video that was called like, here's why you can't trust the AI companies,

9:35people would watch that because it's like, oh, a threat. Like, I want to know, like, why can't I? Hank has some thoughts about why I can't trust the AI companies. Yes. And it's all very salient. It's very of the moment. And so that's like a title that I would have if I wanted to get a couple million views. And then I'd interview an AI safety researcher and it would be extra long, which is also something that YouTube now rewards. Have you ever used one of these tricks and then just felt real bad about yourself? Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So there's this thing in SciShow that we call or that I call a head lie.

10:10So it's a headline that is a lie until you watch the video. And you got to be careful with these. So sometimes this is OK. Like, sometimes it's fine. Like, we did a video recently that was called, like, everyone on Earth has the same commute. And the video was about the fact that, like, everywhere, no matter where you look in the Himalayas or in South America or in Texas, there's this there's like an average commute time and it's like 47 minutes. It's very strange.

10:41But, like, if you took that headline seriously, you'd be like, well, I guess everybody, like, the person who lives five minutes away from work and a person who lives 45 minutes away from work have the same commute time. I'm not worried about that one because you don't think that. You don't. You're not like you're like you are confronted with. The stakes are low. But there are also times when I have written a headline where it's like if somebody just saw that headline and they didn't watch the video, they and that's most people who read the headline.

11:11Most people aren't going to click. They're going to walk away with an incorrect idea in their head. And we like, you know, like sometimes I'm like, but it'll get more views. What's an example? I can't. There was like it was something about a bee. Wendy, I'm sorry. It was something about a bee and I can't remember what it was.

11:32I'll give you I'll give you another example, which is recently John made a video where he went and like toured some facilities where they're testing people for tuberculosis and trying like like doing a bunch of work to help people know when they have tuberculosis. Make sure they know what kind they have, treat them because the treatment's different depending on the strain of TB you have. And and he put this video out and it was getting like no views, which, of course, you know, like that's just not like a super sexy topic for the average American.

12:08TB is hard. Yes. Yeah. And and so I changed the title to Elon Musk canceled this. We're doing it anyway, which I feel a little bad about. Did Elon Musk say anything about tuberculosis? Was it a complete lie? Oh, no. I mean, he canceled all of USAID like. Oh, OK. OK, right. Yeah. And it was connected to USAID. OK, so it was true. It was it was true. Yeah, it was it was true. And like and like it took a lot of work to get the money together to fill the gaps to make it happen.

12:38OK. But like it's a little bit like I like this is a story of humans doing an amazing thing. And I hate that I have to frame it inside of like you hate this guy. And so watch like hate watch this content. Yes. Yeah. Yes. Did it work, though? Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. OK. You know. Yes. Yeah. And it was it was one of our biggest videos of the month. OK. Wow. All right.

Algorithmic salience and filter bubbles

13:00So you talked about how you are worried that these platforms, social media, YouTube, are really optimized for making money. Yeah. I mean, I would even not I would say that they're optimized for keeping you on the site. Even it's it's just like they know that if they get more of you, then they will eventually get more money. And that's like that's the surrogate that they optimize for more than anything is like having you not close the app. What is something that people misunderstand about these algorithms?

13:34Oh, that they have that that like.

13:38You are in control of them, I think, is a big one. Like people there's this phrase when you see a tick tock or a reel that's just like really like exact like something very weird that nonetheless you are extremely into. I built this feed brick by brick. Yeah, exactly.

13:57Tell me how you feel about explain this concept first. So the concept is is like you give the algorithm your choices. You say like I'm going to watch this one and I'm going to not watch this one. I'm going to heart this one and I'm going to comment on this one and I'm going to scroll past this one super fast. And that's how that's that is how the recommendation algorithms like every every. Every input they have is a human decision, but they are not really conscious human decisions anymore, whereas they used to be used to be like, did you click on this video?

14:34You know, did you make that choice? Did you like this video? Did you comment on this video?

14:39And did you dislike this video? So you have those like like decision points, whereas these modern swipable feeds are like by far. The most important data point is whether you keep watching the video and for how long.

14:56And so these imperceptible, I mean, the most obvious example is just you see boobs, you see boobs and you stop for a little longer than you want it. You were like, I was here to learn about cool science. Boobs. Yeah. Yeah. And it's like, wait, maybe I should show this person more boobs. Yeah. Here they are. Bigger and better. Let's go. Which, look, I mean, boobs, fantastic. So I'm not that worried about boobs in particular, but I but I am worried about it. Like so like salience is the word that I use for this.

15:27So like anything that is easy to pay attention to boobs. Great example of a thing that are a thing. Two things that are easy to pay attention to. And and then but there's so but like what are the easiest things to pay attention to is a really interesting sort of set of thoughts to go down. And then what makes something easy to pay attention to? And am I in control of that? And I'm not really. What are some examples you're worried about? Yeah. Crime committed by people who look different from me.

15:59Yes. Is very easy to pay attention to and very easy to sort of like once your feed starts being that that's all you get. And then you're like, wait a second. I think that these people who look different from me are committing an awful lot of crime. And it's like, well, are they or is it just that that is something that people watch because it's scary? And and so it's very easy to pay attention to another thing would be stories about how I'm better than other people, which we all want. And that is not like it's not just a racism thing.

16:31It's also just a political thing. Like if you show me content about how like people who vote differently than me are dumb, I'm like, well, I did watch that. And and so so there's like this this this like combination of like outrage is really like this is, you know, cute is one very salient thing. Outrage is another very like these test very highly sexual stuff also tests very highly. Yeah. And and and the reason like I think about a lot about outrage, like what is it actually?

17:03And it tends to have a component of superiority tied along with it. So like I am angry about this. The world shouldn't be this way. If I were in charge, none of this would be happening. Like it's there's like a morality to outrage. Yes. Yes. Yes. And you do use outrage in some of your videos and what I would say to good to good purpose. I mean, there was a graph, some garbage graph about climate change. As you can see, they're not occurring more than in recent years.

17:35You don't know if they're occurring more than in recent years because there's all kinds of things that mess with this. This is decreasing. What would you expect to have happen if the earth was getting warmer? You were very angry about that. And I was too. And it did pull me in. Your anger and outrage and the fact you couldn't go to bed. Did you have to sort out the graph? It pulled me in. I did a lot of graph research at 1130 at night. Yeah. It was not the best choice I've ever made.

18:06So I want to talk about just staying with the algorithm. In the early days of social media, about 2010, do you remember when this idea of filter bubbles by Elie Parisa sort of entered the fray? And it was – do you want to explain it? Sure. I mean, the filter – yeah, the basic idea of the filter bubble is very simple, which is like if you are existing inside of a curated environment, then you see a different world than the people around you. And like you kind of never interact with the world of people who have different worldviews than you, which is – I feel like this sort of like first – like the version one of filter bubbles was like a good first step.

18:53And then it has turned out to be all so much more complicated than that. Like, for example, I see lots of right-wing perspectives. I just see the absolute craziest ones, you know? Like my filter bubble – That's what your algorithm is giving you. It selects for left-wing people finding the craziest right-wing perspectives and then showing that to left-wing people, you know? Yes. So it's like here, here – and that like – that's like, you know, never would we have expected that this was one of the ways that it would function.

19:25Yeah. So this is fascinating because to prepare for this interview, I definitely feel like – I think we all feel like we live in a filter bubble. It is the deep story. We've got this echo chamber. It's used to explain why there's this deep polarisation when two people – a political issue happens in the world. People have these very different views of it and there's this story that it's because we're seeing different images of what is happening. That's how divisive the internet is right now because of these personalised algorithms.

19:56But I was looking into the science of it and researchers cannot clearly find evidence for filter bubbles. And isn't this – it's crazy to me. Let me give you some quotes. So one report out of Oxford Uni said the research, quote, suggests echo chambers are much less widespread than is commonly assumed. Most people have relatively diverse media diets. Another academic in a chapter said that filter bubbles were a, quote, unfounded moral panic.

20:29And basically the idea being that, as your case in point, is that it's much more complicated. Sometimes we are fed information from the other side, but then we often dismiss it out of hand. And so this researcher was saying we need to – we are a part – we are complicit in our polarised views. Oh, for sure. And then, yeah, and so – and then the other point was they were saying we're actively seeking out information that further polarises our views.

21:00What do you make of this? I mean, like, the thing that really turned me from being like, ah, the version of filter bubbles that I heard in the TED Talk 15 years ago is, like, not entirely, like, going to be the version of reality. It really is when somebody said to me, never before have our information diets been more diverse than they are right now. Interesting. And, like, I think that the – by far the best frame for all of this is what holds your attention.

21:34And this is really hard to – like, it doesn't seem right, but, like, let me pitch you this. So we have this understanding now that we are all kind of suffering due to the hyperpalatability of food. So we got too good at making food too delicious. And so people ate more of it because it's so good. And if you have a French fry and then a Coke, you can have more French fry. And they pair very well. And that doesn't seem right because Coke is also food. But – so we have this, like, hyperpalatability problem in food.

22:07We also have a hyperpalatability or, like, a hypersalience problem in media where I and all of my colleague creators are in collaboration with, like, the most sophisticated software of all time to create stuff that is just a little bit more salient than the person next to me is creating. And I try to use my powers for good, but I don't know if I always do. But, like, not everybody is trying to use their powers for good because they're more ambitious than me. They're younger than me.

22:38They didn't get lucky as I did. And they have to compete. And it's harder to compete when they're them than when they're me. And my – so, like, imagine, like, trying to understand what a sort of hypersalient information object is like is really interesting to me. So, for example, you would want something that's not just threatening to you. It's maybe threatening to your children. Like, that'd be hypersalient. You'd also want something where it's, like, there's, like, a big nefarious, like, thing that is more powerful than you that you can't control.

23:12So, that's, like, another level of threat. And then, like, my favorite hypersalient object to identify is what if this thing that you've been told is good your whole life is actually bad? And so, that's, like, a different scale or, like, flavor of threat. Yes. And what if I told you a thing where you could tell a story, all three of those stories at the same time about an object, and that object is vaccines? I was going to say. Or it could be fluoride in the water. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

23:42So many things. Or, like, NPR, you know, like USAID. You know, all of these things that are, like, FEMA, you know? Like, there's conspiracies about the Federal Emergency Management Agency, the thing that, like, saves people when things go wrong. Yes. And it's, like, all they do is, like, negotiate bottled water contracts in case something bad happens. And it's, like, I don't know. That sounds pretty scary to me. Oh, goodness. So, this is, like, a form of the thing that worries me is not really so much that we're polarized.

24:14It's the thing that we all have started to agree on, which is that, like, institutions are bad. Experts are bad. Like, completely losing faith in all of society is really bad for society and also bad for systems. And I feel like that's just sort of a lot of what gets traction in a world where everything has to compete with everything else to be as attention-grabbing as possible. Yes.

AI, misinformation, and computer suffering

24:39And while we are on the topic of slop on the internet, let's go into AI. Uh-huh. What is worrying you about AI right now? Can I tell you a weird thought I have that's not worrying? Please. Do you know about Brandolini's Law? No. It's, uh, that the, um, how does it, um, it's... Do you know about Brandolini's Law?

25:03Um, the, uh, creation, to, like, refuting BS requires an order of magnitude more effort than creating BS. Oh, God. I live, I live in Brandolini's Law. We both do. Right. Yeah, I can't believe this is your entire life. Yes. I swim in this law. Oh, my gosh. Okay, yes. I, so, so there's, because, I would like to make the case that perhaps creating BS isn't just, like, an order of magnitude easier than refuting it.

25:37I think that it's, it's free. And I think it's always been free. And I think that it's never going to be easier because it's as easy as it can be. Like, there's nothing easier than just saying some BS. Yes. So it's, you can't actually make that easier. Right. You can't make saying BS easier. You don't need to research BS. Yeah. You can just say, okay, yes. Now, at the same time, I think that they're, like, I've seen some true BS artists who will do a lot of research so that they can say clever sounding things to support their BS.

26:08And oftentimes they are absolutely certain of, like, they, like, eat the sh** they're full of. Like, they believe it. It is the new brand and super dangerous brand of misinformation out there right now, I think. Like, I mean, this, when you use these complicated sounding words. Oh, yeah. And, and you really, really sound smart. And at the base of what you're saying is just feces. You know, it's nothing. It's crazy. I mean, that's what pseudoscience really is. Like, that's when we talk about pseudoscience.

26:39We mean things that are, like, putting on the clothes of science and saying a bunch of big words. And they're, like, metabolism, inflammation. Yes. And then you're, like, ah, I guess. I don't know. Mitochondria. Yeah. You know, what? Yeah.

26:52Yes. So, wait, where do we get to the good? I thought you were telling something good about AI. I have, like, this sense that, like, you can't, you can't make it easier to create BS. Yes. So, so actually AI doesn't make creating BS easier. Right. The bar is locked. Because it's already been at the bottom the whole time. But you can make more of it. You can pump out more of it. You can make more, but, like, more isn't necessarily, like, I think that we have, like, a, like, there's already an infinite amount of information also.

27:22Like, we've already hit max capacity for information. Keep eating more crap. And I do hope, maybe, that there will be tools that will make the other side of the Brandelini's Law equation easier. So, if your job as a researcher becomes easier because of tools with which you can research more quickly, you can find information, you can digest papers, you can, like, if that part becomes easier, then, like, that is, and I'm not saying, because we're going to talk about other things that I'm very worried about.

27:56But, but, but, but, but, like, that's, like, what, what I'll say, that's a version of the story you can tell where it doesn't actually make it worse. And so, like, one of the things I feel about any big transition like this, having lived through a few of them, is, boy, do I not predict what's going to happen because I'm always wrong. It's, like, so, so weird. It's so strange. It's so strange. I'm going to put a prediction out there, though, that I do hear that AI produces a bunch of BS, then maybe AI produces a bunch of facts, and they're just the AI just talking to each other while the world burns.

28:34Yeah, a little bit of that. What I will say is I think that absolutely AI will make scamming way easier. Yes. So, like, scamming is different than, like, information BS, but, like, like, direct person-to-person scams and grifts, I think, like, it's so, it's so scary right now. Yes. Where, like, I, like, I, I don't know. Like, I feel, I feel like, you know, I, I could, like, watch someone's YouTube videos, clone their voice, call their mom with their voice, and be like, hey, mom, can you send me 20 bucks?

29:05What's your bank account number? A hundred percent. You got a safe word? You got a safe word? Everybody needs a safe word. Everyone needs a safe word. Okay, so when we zoom out and think about where AI might be headed, I have heard that you have a video that you have not released with the question of, will a computer ever suffer? Yeah. But you haven't put it out. What are you wrestling with here? Do you think a computer will ever suffer? I think a computer can suffer. And, but I don't, like, I think the, the kind of interesting thing I want to say here is maybe a computer won't ever suffer because we won't need them to, they won't need themselves to, there will be no reason to build suffering.

29:52And, and there is, like, two sides to this. Like, maybe there will be no reason to build suffering inside of a non, like, a non-biological thing. Why would you create it? And then there's the other side, which is, it is an inevitability. If you have it prefers one thing to another thing, which they already do, then if you tie experience to that, then the, the feeling of not having the thing that it wants, or the feeling of failing, or the feeling of, of, um, you know, not being able to achieve whatever series of goals it has, will feel like suffering.

30:29So, so, on the topic of suffering, shall we talk about your cancer diagnosis?

30:41Sorry. Segways are so hard, Harry. No, that's, that's a great one. That's a great one. I just feel bad that I did. I, I, I just, I just want to say before we leave AI behind, I am legitimately worried about three weird guys having this much power. Okay, now we can move on. And they've got bunkers, or structures, as they call them. A lot of them seem to have structures, which is a little worrying. Yes, yes.

Diagnosed with Hodgkin lymphoma

31:07So, in 2023, um, you had a... Wait, can I do a, can I do a segue? Absolutely, please. But their structures will not protect them from cancer.

31:21Segway! Segway! Thank you, thank you. After the break, how Hank peed out his cancer. Literally. Coming up. Get your tickets now for the Dog Stars. It's no surprise how fast civilization can disappear. Out there, just kill or be killed. Jacob Elordi.

31:52There are people out there. They need our help. Josh Brolin. Shoot first, and inquire afterwards. Margaret Qualley. Ow! Okay, tough guy. And Guy Pearce. Arm up! The Dog Stars. Directed by Ridley Scott. In theaters August 28th. Get tickets now. Rated R. Under 17, not admitted without parents.

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32:36Welcome back. Today on the show, I'm chatting with veteran science communicator, YouTuber Hank Green. Let's jump back in. So, in 2023, you found a lump in your lymph nodes and did some tests. And the doctor told you, we know you have cancer, we just don't know what kind. Yeah. In fact, it was better news than that a little bit. She said that we know, they say that you have lymphoma, but they're not sure what kind yet.

33:06Okay. Which is good, because if you have cancer in your lymph nodes and it's not lymphoma, then that means it's probably metastasized from somewhere else. And that would be worse news. So, that was a little bit of good news, and she did tell me about that. So, you ended up having to do chemo. You were ultimately diagnosed with Hodgkin lymphoma, which your doctor told you. Yeah. Well, my doctor did not say that. I knew this. In fact, like, they did not need to say anything to me. Like, my doctor called me and was like, we just got it back. I just heard. It's Hodgkin's. And I was like, thank you so much.

33:37Thank you so much. And I just hung up and I told Catherine. And I knew that that was the best outcome. Yes. By the time I got staged, like a 5% chance that I would not be alive in five years. What possibly, what went through your mind when all of this was unfolding? Like, there's, like, weird practicalities of, like, I got to make sure my passwords are all in great order. In fact, I had had a weird experience before I found out that I, like, so I went to see my doctor just to get, like, anti-anxiety pills.

34:09And I was like, this is a crazy thing to go to my doctor and be like, I need you to help me with my anxiety. And then I was like, second thing to help me with my anxiety, can you tell me that I'll be alive in three months? Because otherwise, I got some stuff to do. And she was like, here's your prescription for your anti-anxiety medicine. I cannot. And so I was like, okay, well, I guess I'm going to do this stuff. So there was stuff to do during that period of time. Because if it was, like, metastasized lung cancer or something, I really might not have lived for three months.

34:41So that was terrifying. And then when I knew, though, the landscape was like, okay, like, I've got years at least. And that looked very much like, okay, so I have to, like, prepare for treatment. I have to understand treatment. I have to, I, like, am worrying about, like, okay, like, you know, my son's not going to, like, be grown up for a decade. Like, I thought maybe I would be more worried about work.

35:13I wasn't worried about work at all. I wasn't worried about, like, how everybody was going to handle life without me at work. I was worried about, like, my family. I was worried a little bit about, like, all the information that's tied up inside of my head and, like, feeling bad for not having mentored more people. But I didn't feel, another thing that I was surprised is I didn't feel, like, worried about missing the future. Like, the, not, like, I was worried about, like, not seeing my son grow up. I wasn't worried about, like, missing, like, a mission to Mars or the next scientific advancement, which is, like, I love that stuff.

35:50So that's, like, so much what, like, I enjoy about the world is, like, finding some new thing that we have discovered. But I wasn't, like, I'm, like, kind of freed to find out that I don't, like, when I die, I won't, I maybe won't actually care that I'm going to miss out on the next set of discoveries, even though that is really a source of joy in my life. So that's very interesting to me. And you, you did discover many things about your body and chemo.

Chemo, cancer cells, and recovery

36:18So one of, I think, the most fascinating is tell me what happened when your pee got cloudy. Sure, yeah. I thought I had a UTI because my, my, it burned when I peed and my pee was super cloudy and I went in, I called. And so when you have, when you're doing chemo, they take everything very seriously because you basically have no white blood cells. And so little things can become big things really fast. And so I called and they were, like, come in and do a urine test. And I came in and I did. And luckily, by chance, my doctor was, like, free at that moment.

36:50So they did it and he was, like, hey, come on in. And we chatted and I was, I was, like, he was, like, you're all good. Your pee looks fine. And I was, like, well, why is my pee cloudy? And he, well, first I said, why does it burn when I pee? And he was, like, that's the chemo. It may, you, like, pee out the chemo and it irritates your urethra. You pee out the chemo. Yeah. There's a lot of pieces in there. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, yeah, your kidneys filter it out and, you know, it isn't all the way broken down by the time it gets out.

37:21So it does some damage on the way up.

37:25But the reason it's cloudy is you are looking at literal pieces of little bits of cancer. Yeah. And so I was, like, why is it cloudy? And he was, like, that's the little, that's, like, the parts of the cells. It's, like, fats and proteins from the cells that have broken down in your body and you are, your kidney filters them out. And, like, a lot of that stuff actually gets recycled by the body. But when you have, like, a big release of it. Yeah. It overwhelms those systems and you actually can see the physical effects of the cells

37:55exiting you. Did it change the way you looked at your pee? I mean, I find this very inspirational. Everything changed the way I looked at everything. Yeah, no, it was very good. It was amazing to be, like, seeing the physical results. And a lot of times you don't really know that you're getting that. And so you're, like, waiting for the next scan. I was very lucky not just to have the pee, but also I had a lymph node that I could feel. Most of my lymph nodes were underneath my pectoral muscles, so I couldn't, like, palpate them. And I couldn't feel what they were up to.

38:26But I had one in my armpit that I could feel. And I could feel it changing shape and texture. Wow. And now how I... Texture is a weird word. But, yeah, it was softer, I should say. It was, you could feel improvement. And how are you now? I'm good. I've been in remission for almost three years. And I remain much more medically anxious than I was. I have had some, you know, almost everybody has a little bit of, like, some level of disability

38:56that they can't carry out of cancer treatment, it turns out. Which also is a thing that I never thought about. I have some pain that I didn't used to have. The anxiety is definitely a thing. I got shingles this year so bad, which is apparently a thing that can happen to people who've done chemo. Um, and it was, it was, it just, like, I've had shingles before. And this was, like, I don't know, like, 30 times worse. It was so bad. It still hurts.

39:27And it's been, like, two months. I'm so sorry. Yeah. It's crazy. Thank you to everybody who's ever done a clinical trial, by the way, who's refined these treatments so that they are now so much more tolerable. And, gosh, I'm going to try another segue, Hank.

The fracturing of modern communication

39:41I'm really sorry. Um, just while we're on crap, crappy things. Let's zoom out. Let's zoom out. Yeah. What is it like in the U.S., I guess? I mean, it's so crazy right now. Uh, it feels pretty bad. Feels like something I never would have expected. It's heavy, for sure. And maybe I'm, like, just beating this drum because this is my anchor. But, like, I think that when you have a communications revolution, like, existing institutions take a pretty hard hit every time.

40:13Mm. Like, right now, I feel like I kind of wish the internet hadn't happened. But I don't think that that is what I feel will be the long-term opinion of it. I think that in the long-term people— Wow, but right now, you are crazy. I don't have any, any, any more, uh, like, ability to feel as if things, as if it has made the world better, like I used to. Um, and, like, and I'm, like, an optimistic, hopeful person. But, like, it, this is a mess, and it is a mess that is created by the fracturing of communication.

40:46You think this is all due to the, the fracturing of communication, as you put it? There's sort of social media spaces, the breakdown of traditional media. Is that what you're referring to, specifically? I think that that, that's sort of, like, a, uh, those are two things that are also emergent of the thing. But the thing is many-to-many communication being free. You know, I participated, I ride that wave. And I don't think that on its own does it. I think that that combined with, you know, social media, like, algorithms, social content

41:22platform algorithms, doing this recommendation and promotion. I think that we do not, to any extent, understand how much we live in a world constructed by AI, but it is not large language models. It is recommendation algorithms. Yeah. How do you feel that you are in the middle of this? I mean, you are one of the biggest YouTubers in the world. It's not true. Thank you. One of. One of the biggest YouTubers in Wendy Zuckerman's world, for sure. I don't know about the others.

41:53Um, I mean, you are in this space and yet, I mean, are you thinking of just pulling the plug and, you know, becoming a gardener? No, like, me leave? No, never. No. Um, yeah, no, like, the, the, that's not how I think about it at all. Like, I, I think that it is vitally important for thoughtful people to be engaging with it. Um, it, in, in a way where you would try and understand it and understand how it's affecting society. And, and like, that's how we get through.

42:24It's like an X. You're breaking up. You're in that middle of breaking up here. I'm still obsessed with you. And you, maybe you could be good. Yeah. Maybe you could come good. I don't, I don't actually, like, that's not. Marissa? It's, I can fix you. Yeah, no, it doesn't sound like that, doesn't it? Yeah. Yeah.

Butterfly origins and the biology of cancer

42:40All right, I think we're going to end with our oddball questions. Oddball questions.

42:48Quick questions to cap us off. Are you ready? I'm ready. Okay. What is a conspiracy theory that you secretly have a bit of a soft spot for? Um, that caterpillars and butterflies used to be different species and merged.

43:05Shut up! And just tell me we didn't land on the moon.

43:14I mean, it's definitely not true. And there's also all kinds of other bugs that have larvals. There's fish who have larval stages. Larval stages are totally a thing that happens that are normal. But, like, I love the idea. Like, I agree. You look at a caterpillar and you look at a butterfly and you're like, there's no way. That's no way. Those are different things. And they go into the cocoon. Yeah. Yeah. It's like, you're like, what the hell's going on in there? No, there was a worm and there was a butterfly.

43:44And then they somehow merged, like, the mitochondria and the cell. Finish this sentence. Now that I know blank, I'll never look at blank the same way again. Now that I know how cancer works, I will never look at life the same way again. And not mine, just for clarity. The existence of multicellular organisms. Tell me more. Do you know what cancer is? Nobody knows what cancer is. Can you give me the Wendy Zuckerman answer to that question?

44:16What is cancer? Sure. I would say cancer is when the DNA mutates in your cells in a particular way that creates a cell that will then replicate faster than other cells in your body. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So there is at the root of that a mechanism at work that nobody talks about, I think, just because it's terrifying, which is that natural selection is acting on these cells. And so any cell that can replicate faster than other cells, there will be more of that cell. Any trait that allows it to replicate faster, there will be more of that trait. And thus, if you understand how natural selection works, if you're like, wait a second, then multicellularity shouldn't work.

44:54Because we should just be having these cancer-type cells. The moment that a multicellular organism starts existing, some cell in that multicellular organism is going to be like, well, if I, like, it's not going to think this. If it acquires a trait that allows it to multiply faster than the other cells in the organism, it will just do that. Not because of anything. Just because if it's able to make more of itself, there will be more of it. Yes, and there's so many cells in our body. Surely one is going to go rogue. Yeah, yeah. Indeed, it does happen in about 40% of people by the end of their life.

45:28But what this means is that, like, the existence of multicellularity is from the first little weird jelly thing in the Ediacaran has been all based on controlling cancer. It's been controlling cancer the whole time. That's what multicellularity is. It is cells working together to try and pass their genes onto the next colony of cell rather than the next individual cell. And in order to do that, shouting at each other and working constantly to stop each other from becoming a cancer.

46:00It's f***ing wild. Yes. That is, I mean, it does kind of make me think of when I was in college, I had this theory. I worked at a bakery that everything is bread. And now that you've gone through this cancer, you're like, everything is cancer. Everything is cancer. Everything is fighting cancer. Yeah, yeah, for sure. Yeah. Well, we look and, like, tumor suppressor genes are among the oldest genes in... It's crazy. It is a crazy thought now that you think about it. Yeah. We just... That is almost the basis of multicellular life, just f***ing cancer.

46:32Yeah, just like bread. What's your favorite title to a scientific paper that you read recently? I was rereading the scientific paper that Thomas Hodgkin wrote about Hodgkin's lymphoma when he discovered it, which was titled, On Submorbid Appearances of the Absorbent Glands and Spleen, which we used to have better titles to papers. No! I love that. Wow, yes.

The chemistry of matching fart smells

46:53All right. Can I tell you, Hank Grain, my theory as to why, when you fought and lied a match, the smell goes away? Okay, hit me. I have... Now I have a guess, but... Okay. You want to... Have you thought about it? Like, have you used this strategy when you do a fart? I have not, but I've heard of it. I do a farty person. Oh, yeah, but we're just... We're very chill about the fart smells in our house. Yeah. You're not... That means you're not a really farty person. You don't know. You don't know what it's like, mate.

47:25If you're... We're all fine with farts, but there comes a level you need to use the match. Okay. Why do you think it works? Um, I have... I... So, it is not the match lighting, but the match going out would be my guess. Mm-hmm. That when the match goes out, it creates a smell that overwhelms the fart smell? Okay. The mask... The typical masking theory.

47:56Yes. The masking theory, yeah. It's been proposed. This is what I think the internet thinks, but I think it goes deeper. Okay. I'm excited. It goes caterpillar butterfly deeper. And now I finally have someone to tell you. We should have a podcast together. This is ridiculous. I don't know why we don't. This is... I'm so excited. Do you know how many people I have tried to tell this theory to and they could not give a s***?

48:20And I'm like, I want to spend every... I'll spend an hour with you a week forever, is how I respond.

48:31Okay. All right. Here it is. Here it is. Here it is. Okay. So, when you light a match, red phosphorus is at the end. And the ignition point of red phosphorus is 260 degrees Celsius, which is 500 Fahrenheit. Mm-hmm. The reason a fart is smelly is because of hydrogen sulfide in the fart. In part. In part. That's often the smelliest part. Often the smelliest part.

49:01Famously rotten egg smell. Guess what the ignition point of hydrogen sulfide is? You think you're burning hydrogen sulfide in the air? I think it's exactly 260 degrees Celsius. Yes.

49:17I think through the magic of chemistry, the smell, the hydrogen sulfide is splitting apart. And you are creating whatever. I think it becomes maybe water, H2O, in the air. And some kind of sulfur. I think the smell disappears. I think it's more than masking. Hmm. I don't know, Wendy, because I feel like you'd have to get all of the air to 262 degrees Celsius, which would definitely be bad. Because it's not like it's not going to spread around.

49:49The fart smell isn't just at the strike point on the matchbox. That's a good point.

49:56Hank Green's got it again. We need to do some actual science. Actual science. Exactly. Catch us next time on Hank and Wendy. Ten years I've been trying to figure out how to do science on whether butt hair prevents chafing, and I still haven't gotten it done.

50:15Because when you had chemo, you lost your butt hair. It's true. Right? Yeah, yeah. It was great. Way preferable to the alternative, I have to say. Did you have any less chafing? Well, I wouldn't know. I wasn't jogging. You know, I was in bed watching Seinfeld and eating Chick-fil-A.

50:42There's not like much opportunity for chafing when I went up and down the stairs once a day. Thank you so much, Hank. Thanks so much for your time. Thank you. I'm a huge fan. It is so great to be here. Keep doing the good things you do. That was my chat with the science communicator, Hank Green. Now, soon after I interviewed Hank, some people got a bit miffed because of how he's used AI to help make some of his content. And you might have heard about some of that controversy. Hank has, in the meantime, released a new AI use policy, which you can find on his YouTube channel.

51:15You can also find Hank at SciShow. And his comedy special is called Pissing Out Cancer. It came out in 2024. We'd love to know what you thought of this episode. You can find us all over social media. We're on Instagram and TikTok. We're also on YouTube now. So come and find us at Science VS Podcast. If you're already watching on YouTube, hello. Please like and subscribe. And if you like this episode, then why don't you share it with one of your friends? This episode was produced by me, Wendy Zuckerman, and Ikedi Foster-Keyes, with help from Meryl Horne, Rose Rimler, and Michelle Dang.

51:52Editing by Blythe Terrell. Mix and sound design by Bobby Lord. Music written by Peter Leonard, Bobby Lord, So Wiley, Bumi Hidaka, and Emma Munger. An extra thanks to the Zuckerman family and Joseph Lavelle Wilson. I'm Wendy Zuckerman. Back to you next time.