Zootopia Exposed! (Part One)

Introduction to Agentic Commerce

0:00We spend hours deciding what to buy, but there's a split-second decision that can make or break a sale. Do you have the trust to hit buy now? Agentic Commerce is testing that moment more than ever. And that's where PayPal comes in. With 25 years of checkouts, 400 million consumer accounts globally, and the benefit of purchase and seller protection, all of which make sure wherever a purchase starts, it ends with trust. Built for payments, growth, and agentic.

0:31PayPal Open, built for all business. Visit paypalopen.com. Purchase and seller protections on eligible transactions only. Terms apply. See paypal.com slash risk-management for details.

Electric Vehicles

0:47Imagine never buying gas again. EVs, electric vehicles, are as easy to charge as your phone and perfect for everyday life. Drive daily with confidence everywhere you go. Most Americans drive 40 miles a day. Most EVs are equipped with 200 to 400 miles of range. They've got fewer parts, fewer repairs, and fewer headaches. With hundreds of new and used EV models available today, there's an EV to fit every lifestyle and every budget. Ghost the gas station and save up to $2,000 a year not buying gas.

1:22EVs are perfect for real life with a daily range that allows you to drive with confidence wherever you want to go. And charging is easy. Plug in overnight at home, just like your phone, or use a fast charger and get back on the road in as little as 20 minutes. Learn more at electricforall.org.

Insurance Policy Transparency

1:40We buy insurance for peace of mind, but the policies we trust often cause the biggest financial shocks. Every year, millions of claims are denied, not because people did anything wrong, but because their policies quietly excluded what happened. Insurers know every detail. Policyholders rarely do. That's why My Policy Advocate exists. For just 27 cents a day, their platform reads your policies and explains in plain language where you're vulnerable.

2:12They don't sell insurance. They deliver transparency, giving you the same understanding insurers have had for decades. When I heard about My Policy Advocate, my first thought was, at last, a level playing field. Before you trust your policy to protect you, let My Policy Advocate tell you what it really says. Go to mypolicyadvocate.com. That's mypolicyadvocate.com.

Revisionist History Introduction

2:43Pushkin.

2:51On a recent snowy day, I took my four-and-a-half-year-old to a movie theater on Manhattan's Upper West Side. This was only her second time ever at the movies. She was very excited. I bought her a large tub of popcorn. The theater was crowded. We were there to see Disney's Zootopia 2, a film that is now the highest-grossing animated movie of all time. We sat enraptured for the better part of two hours.

3:21And at the end, she turned to me and said, Thank you, Daddy. And I said to her, Oh, this wasn't for you. This was for me. I'm on assignment. My name is Malcolm Gladwell.

Zootopia Story

3:38You're listening to Revisionist History, my podcast about things overlooked and misunderstood. The story I'm about to tell you is the strangest Hollywood story you have ever heard. It makes no sense. It invites all manner of absurd speculation. It's going to take us two episodes to unravel it. And even then, your mind will be in such a swirl that you will almost certainly feel compelled to seize Zootopia 2 for yourself. And, if you've already seen it, to grab any one of your available children and see it again.

4:09And to whisper under your breath when you think your little companion isn't listening. WTF. All of this started when we got a call from Angus Fletcher, saying a friend of his needed to speak to me. It was urgent. The friend had a story to tell. A story with so many layers, the friend said, that there was no way to do it justice in a single episode. Two minimum. For future reference, if you need to get my attention, this is the way to do it.

4:42All right, can you hear me? There you are. Okay. Gary, Angus, the gang is back together. Right away, I hopped on a Zoom with the two of them. If you want, I mean, I can tell you how the story started. And then, Gary, you want to, do you want to? So, okay. All right, jump in. If you are a longtime listener of Revisionist History, you will know the name Angus Fletcher. He's an English professor at Ohio State and runs their narrative project. I love Angus. I think Angus is a genius. Angus has been featured on more Revisionist History episodes than anyone else.

5:16Our three-part rewrite of The Little Mermaid, In Defense of Paw Patrol, and, and this is relevant to the story I'm about to tell you, we did a series of episodes a few years back called Development Hell, where we interviewed screenwriters about their best idea that never made it to the screen. And Angus came on to talk about an absolutely bananas sci-fi project he worked on with a good friend of his, the Hollywood screenwriter, Gary Goldman. And during that episode, I concluded that not only is Angus a genius, but Gary is a genius, too.

Gary Goldman's Background

5:51Anyway, back to the matter at hand. So basically, I get a phone call from Gary, and Gary and I are old friends. We've worked together on a bunch of screenwriting projects. Gary is one of the most famous and eminent screenwriters in Hollywood. If you love the end to Total Recall, you can thank Gary for that. Gary Goldman grew up in the South. He was a protege of the novelist Walker Percy, went to Brandeis, spent some time working in a hospital in Israel during the Yom Kippur War, ended up in Hollywood, and has worked with everyone, Paul Verhoeven, James Cameron, Ridley Scott, David Fincher, Steven Spielberg.

6:27So Gary calls me up, and he goes, Angus, have you seen Disney's latest movie? Here, Angus is referring to the first Zootopia film, which came out in 2016, featuring a rabbit named Judy Hopps and a con artist fox named Nick Wilde, who live in a world inhabited entirely by animals, and who have to work together to solve a mystery involving the disappearance of predators. It's very good. Zootopia, a gleaming city.

6:57Where animals of all breeds, predator and prey alike, live together in peace and harmony. Zootopia did very well. It grossed a zillion dollars and won the Oscar for Best Animated Feature. Gary watched all this success closely. And it's a big deal. I mean, it's a big family. But I can send you the pictures of us drinking champagne when Zootopia won the Academy Award. I mean, this is our lost daughter, who is doing great. Why was this such a big deal for Gary?

7:28Here's what he told Angus. And so he tells me the story of how he goes into Disney, how he pitched them this idea, how he wrote it down on a physical document, which he gave to Disney. And he goes, I think they might have stolen my idea. I said, what's on this document? And Gary goes to me, OK, well, in my pitch, it says, when you grow up, quote, if you want to be an elephant, you can be an elephant. And in Disney's movie, it says, quote, you want to be an elephant when you grow up?

7:59You can be an elephant. And in Gary's pitch, it says, this is going to take place in a land where, quote, an animal can be whatever it wants to be. And in Disney's movie, it says, this is going to take place in a land where, quote, anybody can be anything. And then I say to Gary, what is this land? And Gary says to me, in my pitch, it's called Zootopia. And amazingly, in the Disney movie, it's called Zootopia. Wait, OK, so there's so many things to pick up on.

8:33Gary, take me back to the beginning about the origins of this idea of a movie called Zootopia. What period of time are we talking about here? 2000. 2000. Yeah. I have two sons and my sons were, I don't know, four and six. And, you know, at that time you start thinking about, oh, what can I do creatively that my kids can relate to? And so I came up in under interesting, very specific circumstances with the idea for Zootopia.

9:06And I'll tell you, when I came up with the word Zootopia, I was elated and I ran into my house and I ran upstairs and I talked to my wife. I said, you're not going to believe I've got the most incredible title. I've got the most incredible idea. It's called Zootopia. You know, I don't know. I don't think it's such a great idea. I said, trust me, trust me. It's a really, it's a really good name. In fact, we can't say this word in front of the kids. Because if we say this word in front of the kids, they're going to go to school.

9:37And a lot of their, the parents of these kids are in show business. And the word is going to get out and it's very hard to protect a title. Yeah. So we just have to keep it secret. Yeah, we had to keep it secret.

Zootopia Idea Origins

9:54Fast forward nine years. Goldman's doing a project with the comic book legend Stan Lee for Disney. And he goes to the Disney exec he's working with. And he says, I had this idea. Gives them an eight page outline of the concept. It's called Loony. It's about an animator who creates an animal world called Zootopia. He has drawings of the animals who are going to inhabit the Zootopia world. Roscoe, the hyena, who is cynical and obnoxious. His sidekick Mimi, the squirrel, who is cute and curvaceous and optimistic.

10:27Goldman thinks that this is the best idea he's ever had for a movie. And Angus agrees. So first of all, I just want to point out that you have the writer of Total Recall, which is generally considered to be one of the greatest stories of all time, telling you that Total Recall is nothing compared to Zootopia. That should give you some indication. Yeah. And, you know, Gary is legitimately a story genius. Why is Zootopia so good? Well, because what you're really trying to do with a story is not just create a plot. You're trying to create a world.

10:58Yeah. That's why Star Wars is so brilliant, because the movie, great. But really what you want is you want to wander around with lightsabers and Darth Vader and the Force and the Jedi and Leia and all that kind of stuff. And Zootopia is exactly the same thing. Zootopia is a mythic universe. When Gary first told me this, he sent me a basically a Bible, which went on for, you know, hundreds and hundreds of slides explaining to me all the sort of like complex mythography behind Zootopia. So I'm not going to pretend to be able to kind of expound that to you here.

11:30It was like having a conversation with like Joseph Campbell or something. But basically, the point is, is that you have an entire universe in which these animals are there to expose the lie that you can be whatever it is that you want to be. I mean, that's basically the twist, is that we are all told these fables in America growing up, which is you can be whatever you want to be. Yeah. Yeah. Gary? Yeah. Well, the idea here is all of us tell our kids pretty much, or you have to decide whether

12:02or not to tell your kids, you can be whatever you want to be when you grow up. And you, there's enormous pressure to say it, even though we know as adults, that's not exactly true. That's really kind of magical thinking masquerading as good advice. So do you want to send your kids out into the world knowing nothing except you can be whatever you want to be, and then you just go out there and try, try, try, try, try, and then you encounter real life and you're not prepared for it. On the other hand, if you don't teach your kids that, they're going to be totally outcompeted

12:33by all the other kids in the class who have been told they can be whatever they want to be. So I wanted to basically surround these cliches of conventional wisdom with ridiculous zany cautionary tales about animals who are told they can be whatever they want to be and basically encounter the constraints that all of us encounter in life. The world where all this took place was Zootopia. Gary takes his idea to the executive he's working with at Disney.

13:04The executive, according to Goldman, basically says, this is interesting. Should I give it to the folks over to animation? I said, submit it. He said, okay. And I got my papers together and I put it in the portfolio and I handed it to him.

13:19And then I hear from my agent, they passed. You know, that's all. They passed. Six years go by. And then one day, Gary gets a call from one of his sons. Both of my sons are in the car together. They said, they said, dad, we're driving down the freeway and we see a billboard and you're not going to believe it, but it has your loony characters on it.

13:42I said, my loony characters, what are you talking about? He says, yeah, you know, you're, you're, you're, you're, it's a giant billboard and it's got your characters on it. And I said, that's it. I said, what's the name of the movie? And he says, Zootopia. And he'd never heard the word Zootopia. He called me up to tell me that he'd seen my loony characters. So, I would, you know, I was flabbergasted, obviously. The Goldmans go and see Zootopia at the Grove in Los Angeles.

14:16They can't believe it. As far as Gary can tell, his character Roscoe, the cynical, obnoxious hyena, has been turned into Nick Wilde, the cynical, obnoxious fox. And his optimistic, curvaceous squirrel Mimi has become the optimistic, curvaceous rabbit, Judy Hopps. Goldman gets one of the biggest and baddest of law firms, Quinn Emanuel, to represent him. Quinn Emanuel does not usually take suits like this, but for Gary, they make an exception.

14:47That's how compelling his case seems. So, Quinn Emanuel files a lawsuit claiming copyright infringement. The case goes on for seven years. Everyone who is anyone at Disney is deposed. What's Disney's defense? Is it they never saw it? Yes, never saw it. So, they're claiming this is a series of incredible coincidences. That's right. Yeah, they call it independent courage. Just like I independently created Mickey Mouse the other day. Yeah.

15:16And what happens? Goldman loses. He appeals, loses again. He switches to state court, loses. The courts find that the similarities between Gary's idea and Zootopia didn't look like copyright infringement. And the case is dismissed before the courts ever get to the question. Of whether Disney actually used Goldman's pitch. So, the Goldman's give up the fight. Yeah.

15:44Now, there are a million things to say here. The first is that it isn't surprising that Goldman loses his copyright case against Disney. It's almost impossible, under current case law, for a writer to win a case like this against a studio. In one analysis, two Los Angeles lawyers looked at over 50 copyright infringement cases writers brought against Hollywood studios. And in every case, the plaintiff lost. The law basically says you have to show that your work was copied word for word.

16:17And of course, you can steal someone's idea without copying it word for word. I could go on and on about this, but I won't. Because what matters is what happens next. Then, Gary calls me up a few months ago and he says, Angus, have you seen the sequel to Zootopia? And I said, no, Gary, I have not. What happens in the sequel to Zootopia? Exactly. That's the question. What happens in the sequel to Zootopia? Everyone has a theory.

16:48Why do you think I dragged my daughter to see Zootopia 2? Because I have a theory. Gary Goldman has a theory. The team of movie buffs and literary analysts we put on the case have a theory. You will have a theory too, once you finish listening. And why does everyone have a theory? Because there is absolutely something weird going on with Zootopia 2 that requires a theory. That's after the break.

17:27Support for the show comes from Public. If you look at your investing app, what do you see? An interface stuck in 1997? Or something that looks modern, but feels more like a casino than a place to build wealth? Public is different. It's the investing platform for those who take it seriously. On Public, you can build your portfolio for the long haul. Stocks, options, bonds, crypto. It's all there. But what really makes Public different is the technology behind it.

17:57Imagine starting your day with an AI summarized market briefing. Getting clear summaries of earnings calls the moment they end. Or turning any idea into an investable index just by typing a prompt. This is what investing looks like when the tools finally catch up. Go to public.com and earn a 1% uncapped match when you transfer your portfolio. Public. Investing for those who take it seriously. Ad paid for by Public Holdings. Brokerage services by Public Investing. Member FINRA SIPC. Advisory services by Public Advisors. SEC Registered Advisor.

18:28Crypto services by zero hash. All investing involves risk of loss. See complete disclosures at public.com slash disclosures. Imagine never buying gas again. EVs, electric vehicles, are as easy to charge as your phone and perfect for everyday life. Drive daily with confidence everywhere you go. Most Americans drive 40 miles a day. Most EVs are equipped with 200 to 400 miles of range. They've got fewer parts, fewer repairs, and fewer headaches. With hundreds of new and used EV models available today, there's an EV that fit every lifestyle

19:01and every budget. Ghost the gas station and save up to $2,000 a year not buying gas. EVs are perfect for real life with a daily range that allows you to drive with confidence wherever you want to go. And charging is easy. Plug in overnight at home just like your phone or use a fast charger and get back on the road in as little as 20 minutes. Learn more at electricforall.org. This show is sponsored by Liquid IV. For those of you who are regular listeners to Revisionist History, you know I'm a big

19:33runner. When I was just in Florida, the Gulf Coast, with my family, that lovely, hot, humid Florida weather. And every day I go for a long run through the piney woods near our hotel, eight miles, nine miles, and come back delightfully and gloriously sweaty. But not just sweaty. Seriously dehydrated. You try running in 85 degree heat for over an hour. Liquid IV. I put a little packet in my car. When I'm done, I just mix it up with some water, get a serious, clinically researched infusion of all kinds of good stuff.

20:04And now my post-run glow is even better. Liquid IV. Where have you been all my life? Just one stick and 16 ounces of water hydrates faster than water alone. Powered by Liquid IV HydroScience, an optimized ratio of electrolytes, essential vitamins, and clinically tested nutrients that turn ordinary water into extraordinary hydration. Get moving with superior hydration from Liquid IV. Tear, pour, live more.

20:36Go to liquidiv.com and get 20% off your first purchase with code REVISIONIST at checkout. That's 20% off your first purchase with code REVISIONIST at liquidiv.com.

Zootopia 2 Discussion

20:53At what point do you hear that there's a sequel in the works? I mean, it takes years and years to make these movies. I mean, they were making, beginning to make the sequel while we were still involved in the lawsuit. We're back with Angus Fletcher and Gary Goldman. And the sensitive topic of the sequel has finally come up. Oh, it's really interesting because the main character in the sequel to Zootopia is called Gary the Snake. The sequel's central character is a snake called Gary the Snake.

21:27And I thought, well, that's, obviously they're just planning to, you know, don't make a character a snake unless you're planning to, I mean. So your immediate thought when you heard of this character, Gary the Snake, is that it was... An attack on it. Yeah, it's a personal attack on it. Now, of course, this could just be a coincidence. Gary is a common name. There are lots of Garys in the world. So maybe it makes sense there should be lots of snakes named Gary as well. This is essentially what the Zootopia 2 screenwriter said in a publicity interview with the New York Times.

22:00He's named Gary because I think Gary is a hilarious name. I apologize to the Garys of the world. But multiple times over the years, when I've been writing a nice guy character, it's Gary. But needless to say, the Goldman family, fresh off seven years of legal hell, do not see things this way. Who gets the angriest among all the Goldmans? Who gets the angriest? Oh, well, my younger son, I can't show you, but I'm in my office and there's a door that has a broken hinge, which was when he punched the door in anger after one of these rulings.

22:37The repository of Goldman anger is in the youngest son. Do you know what the psychological principle here is called transactive memory? You know how in families, we store our memories in other members of our family. That's why the family unit is so powerful. But you guys have transactive anger. Sure. So you hear about this and you think you have a sense of foreboding. And where do you see, when did you go see Zootopia 2 in the theater? Oh, the day before it opened. I mean, we tried to sneak, you know, we tried to get tickets to screening.

23:10They wouldn't even give you a ticket to the premiere? Oh, no, no, they don't talk to me. I mean, I'm, no, no, no, no, I didn't ask them. We're not in touch. The whole Goldman family, Gary, his wife Judy, their two grown sons, gather at a movie theater in Dublin, California, just east of San Francisco. So we go there, we're sitting, and we watch as the story unfolds. And my wife says, he looks like you. I said, what are you talking about? The snake looks like me? She says, yeah, don't you see? She's an artist. And so she says, yeah, I can see how that, I think they, you know, in any case, she thinks Gary the snake looks like me.

23:44Now, does Gary the snake really look like Gary Goldman? Or is this just the Goldman's being paranoid? Well, let me describe Gary Goldman. He's 72. He has large, expressive eyes. A self-effacing, understated manner. I mean, you've heard him speak. Match that voice to your mental image of your kindly uncle. And what is Gary the snake? Weirdly, a nice snake. A sweetheart snake. Large, expressive eyes.

24:14A self-effacing, understated manner. Middle-aged, with one fang instead of two. Conceptually defanged, as the middle-aged so often are.

24:25Oh, Gary. Gary the snake. And your last name? The snake. Everything is going to be okay. Gary says that after the movie came out, all kinds of people texted him to say, Gary, the snake looks just like you. And when I went to see Zootopia 2 with my daughter, right after I'd interviewed Gary, that was my first thought as well. Good Lord. It's the same guy. Oh. So.

24:55Well, Gary doesn't have bad teeth. So, the fang was a metaphor. But, yeah. So, Gary, the snake is sweet. His eyebrows kind of go up a little bit. His eyes kind of droop a little bit. I called up Goldman's lawyer, Deborah Drews. I mean, this is going to sound ridiculous. The snake kind of looks Jewish. Yes. The snake looks Jewish.

25:25Yeah. 100%. Okay. So, I mean, I'm Jewish. So, no. Anyway. Yes. I did think the snake looked Jewish. And I thought the way he behaved and the way he moved. Gary Goldman's a sweet. He's a sweet guy. So, every once in a while, that just that Southern charm. And there's a little, you know, like when you're playing a stringed instrument and you bend the string and it gives you a little, it gives you a little twang.

25:56And that's Gary, you know, charming, sweet. So, yeah, that was Gary the snake. I mean, it was clear to me. And I think it probably is clear to the people who worked on both films. Just saying. Oh, by the way, a good chunk of the movie takes place in a swampy coastal area called Marsh Market. And I'm quoting now from a review of the movie. Marsh Market could well be the Zootopia equivalent of New Orleans.

26:31Everybody thinks this. Here's the L.A. Times critic Matt Brennan interviewing the screenwriter and director of Zootopia before the movie came out. That you mentioned Marsh Market, and I have to say, is a longtime New Orleanian. I loved seeing a Zootopia version of a bayou. Why does all this matter? Because Gary Goldman is from New Orleans. And because Gary Goldman is Jewish. But still, I know what you're thinking. We haven't yet crossed over into scandal.

27:03That's after the break.

Public Investing Platform

27:04Support for the show comes from Public. If you look at your investing app, what do you see? An interface stuck in 1997? Or something that looks modern, but feels more like a casino than a place to build wealth?

27:34Public is different. It's the investing platform for those who take it seriously. On Public, you can build your portfolio for the long haul. Stocks, options, bonds, crypto. It's all there. But what really makes Public different is the technology behind it. Imagine starting your day with an AI-summarized market briefing, getting clear summaries of earnings calls the moment they end, or turning any idea into an investable index just by typing a prompt. This is what investing looks like when the tools finally catch up. Go to public.com and earn a 1% uncapped match when you transfer your portfolio.

28:09Public, investing for those who take it seriously. Ad paid for by Public Holdings. Brokerage services by Public Investing. Member FINRA SIPC. Advisory services by Public Advisors. SEC Registered Advisor. Crypto services by ZeroHash. All investing involves risk of loss. See complete disclosures at public.com slash disclosures. Imagine never buying gas again. EVs, electric vehicles, are as easy to charge as your phone, and perfect for everyday life. Drive daily with confidence everywhere you go. Most Americans drive 40 miles a day.

28:39Most EVs are equipped with 200 to 400 miles of range. They've got fewer parts, fewer repairs, and fewer headaches. With hundreds of new and used EV models available today, there's an EV that fit every lifestyle and every budget. Ghost the gas station and save up to $2,000 a year not buying gas. EVs are perfect for real life, with a daily range that allows you to drive with confidence wherever you want to go. And charging is easy. Plug in overnight at home, just like your phone,

29:10or use a fast charger and get back on the road in as little as 20 minutes. Learn more at electricforall.org. A business gift is never just a gift. It's a thank you, a milestone, a moment of appreciation. It's a message about how much someone matters and what your brand stands for. At 4imprint, you'll find thousands of customizable options, like premium apparel, branded drinkware, tech, totes, and more, each chosen not just for function, but for meaning.

29:43You can tailor every detail, your logo, your message, your presentation, so your gift feels personal and on brand. And with expert support, dependable service, and thousands without a setup fee, creating something thoughtful doesn't mean making it complicated. Every order is backed by 4imprint's 360-degree guarantee, so you can be 4imprint certain it'll arrive exactly as expected, on time, and with the care your brand deserves. Because when the moment matters, the right gift speaks volumes,

30:17and the right partner makes it easy. Explore gifting with purpose and certainty at 4imprint.com. 4imprint, for certain. Screenwriters put caricatures of real people in movies all the time. Many people believe, for example, that Dr. Evil in the Austin Powers movies is Lorne Michaels, the creator of Saturday Night Live. The villain of Ian Fleming's James Bond thriller Goldfinger, rumor has it, was based on the modernist architect Erno Goldfinger,

30:51who Fleming was feuding with at the time because Goldfinger built an incredibly ugly house down the road from him. So what? If the Walt Disney Company wants to make a movie about a middle-aged Jewish snake named Gary from New Orleans, that's not a crime. But now, we get to the heart of the issue. Which is, what is Zootopia 2 really about? Well, it's a movie about intellectual property. Zootopia exists because of incredibly sophisticated weather walls

31:23that make it possible for animals from all over the world to live in one place. The walls were invented by Agnes de Snake, Gary's great-grandmother, who wanted to build a world where all animals could live in harmony. But her patent was stolen by the evil lynxes who run Zootopia. Big, chubby evil lynxes. Literally corporate fat cats. Listen to how Pawpert Lynxley describes his family's scheme. But when my great-grandfather saw what her idea could be worth,

31:53he plotted to steal her plans for himself. The lynxes then cast all the reptiles out of Zootopia to keep their theft a secret. And the plot of the movie involves the intrepid team of Judy Hopps and Nick Wilde teaming up with Gary de Snake to get the patent back, restore the snake family's good name, and bring reptiles back into the city of Zootopia. The whole plot of Zootopia 2,

32:24the entire movie, is about repairing the damage done by the theft of intellectual property. Snakes aren't the bad guys. I have to set things right. And when I do, my family will finally be able to come home. So, to recap. Just as the Walt Disney Company emerges from a bruising seven-year legal battle in which a Jewish man from Louisiana named Gary claimed that he invented Zootopia and had his idea stolen by the corporate fat cats

32:57at the Walt Disney Company, the Walt Disney Company comes out with a sequel to Zootopia in which the central character is a Jewish snake from Louisiana named Gary whose family invented Zootopia and had their idea stolen by a bunch of corporate fat cats. This is why Gary Goldman called Angus Fletcher and why Angus Fletcher called me. And so, Zootopia 2 is basically an allegory

33:27of what Disney did to Gary in Zootopia 1, but it's an allegory that's created by Disney. So, anyway, that was the point where my mind imploded and I knew we had to call Malcolm. This is why I love Angus. Because whenever his mind implodes, he thinks of me. The movie's over. Right. The Goldman's walkout. Right. And what do you guys do? Do you guys go out to dinner and discuss? What do you do? How do you download all this information? Well, Malcolm, I don't think we...

33:58We are filled with questions and doubts. We're now in the Twilight Zone. Disney has spent over $300 million producing and marketing this movie. Yeah. And it seems to me that it's about me and this lawsuit. Yeah. It really sucks. And we're trying to figure out how this happened. Did... Whose idea was it? Is the company behind this? Is it a visual statement of the company? Did the writer who were carried over from the last movie,

34:28did they have something to do with this? If you think that all this is paranoid nonsense, then I suggest once again, you go to see Zootopia 2 for yourself. And there will come a point, trust me, when the insanity of the plot will become impossible to ignore and you will turn to the little person next to you nursing their popcorn and you will cover their ears and say out loud, along with everyone else in the crowded theater, WTF.

34:57Did they sneak it past the Disney legal department? Does the Disney legal department know about it? If the legal department knows about it, why did they approve it? If the Disney hierarchies know about it, why did they approve it? No way Disney legal department knew about this. Right, Angus? No way. No way. We can remove that possibility. This sounds to me... So, somehow, somehow, Gary the Snake,

35:29the positive portrayal of Gary the Snake, sneaks past the Disney legal and corporate infrastructure. This is unbelievable. Yeah. We're now in a heist movie. They sneak the idea out of Disney, out of Burbank. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Malcolm, why did the studio make a movie that can be interpreted as reopening a case that was settled? They won. Yeah. And now they're going to talk about it again.

36:00And to me, all this does, I mean, from a personal and legal point of view, it invites speculation. Were there clues in the original litigation that might help us make sense of what happened? I checked with Deborah Drews, Gary's lawyer. Are there copies in the public realm of those depositions, of all those Disney guys? Do you have copies of them? I have a couple of answers for you, but one of them is that Disney was, it was very scrupulous about obtaining a protective order

36:34in which pretty much anything that Disney said was proprietary or confidential or this trade secret would have to be filed under seal, so not accessible to the public. So then I thought, well, I'll just go to the top. I emailed the CEO of Disney himself, the redoubtable Bob Iger. Hi, Bob. Happy New Year. I have become obsessed with Zootopia 2 and the question of whether the movie is an encoded apology to Gary Goldman.

37:05It's maybe my favorite Hollywood story ever. And as you may know, Gary Goldman is interpreting the film's hidden message as an act of graciousness on Disney's part. Would you ever consider talking about this for my podcast, even five minutes, even if you just want to say something brief and funny? I just saw it with my four-year-old. Anyway, I know this is a long shot, but thought you might enjoy a little distraction from your day. Em. He writes back, first of all, great to hear from you.

37:35And the picture of you with a four-year-old makes me smile. Kids are truly life-changers and blessings, aren't they? Then he goes on, Regarding Zootopia and Gary, I am sorry to tell you, I cannot comment. I should say, Bob Iger is an incredibly kind and gracious man, and there is a version of this story where he is the hero, the greatest of all heroes, the kind who can never publicly acknowledge their courageous act. There is also a version where he was the victim of a crime

38:06so perfect that he can never bring the offender to justice. We will get there. I promise.

38:15Okay, would anyone else talk? I called up Hollywood big shots, moguls, no one would go on the record, don't use this, or you can use this, but don't use my name. Like this guy. I'm not sure why they did it, to be honest with you. Yeah. Because like, that's so on the nose, and it's such a bleep you, if you pardon my French. I mean, I didn't know they were that bold, to be honest with you. I kind of laugh about it. I think it's funny. It's funny. But it's hysterical. But here's the truth.

38:45You rarely poke talent in the eye. You know what I mean? Yeah. So, I don't know how the lawsuit ended, but I would guess there's a little bitterness because people don't lose wealth, right? So, I just find it wildly bizarre. It's too good. It's too good.

39:06I kept going, mogul upon mogul. Hi, redacted. I'm doing a very strange and hilarious story about Disney and Zootopia 2 and wanted to talk to you about it. The mogul writes back. Nice to connect. I would talk to you about anything except Disney. I respond. I totally understand, redacted. But I appreciate you getting back to me. I suspect that you will at least be amused by what we end up doing. It's a story about how the script

39:36for Zootopia 2 never should have gotten past Disney legal. Mogul writes back. Not surprised. Good luck. On the matter of Gary the Snake and Zootopia 2, there is nothing but silence from the powers that be. we have been left to our own devices. And there is nothing in the world more exciting on a story as strange as this than being left to our own devices.

40:05Next week on Revisionist History, part two, we venture a bold theory about what exactly happened behind the closed doors of the Walt Disney Corporation. Revisionist History is produced by Nina Bird-Lawrence, Lucy Sullivan, and Ben Nadeff-Haffrey. Our editor is Karen Shikurji, fact-checking by Sam Rusick. Our executive producer is Jacob Smith, engineering by Nina Bird-Lawrence, original music by Luis Guerra,

40:37sound design and mastering by Marcelo de Oliveira. I'm Malcolm Gladwell.

40:45We spend hours deciding what to buy, but there's a split-second decision that can make or break a sale. Do you have the trust to hit buy now? Agentic Commerce is testing that moment more than ever. And that's where PayPal comes in. With 25 years of checkouts, 400 million consumer accounts globally, and the benefit of purchase and seller protection, all of which make sure wherever a purchase starts, it ends with trust.

41:15Built for payments, growth, and agentic. PayPal Open, built for all business. Visit paypalopen.com. Purchase and seller protections on eligible transactions only. Terms apply. See paypal.com slash risk-management for details. Imagine never buying gas again. EVs, electric vehicles, are as easy to charge as your phone and perfect for everyday life. Drive daily with confidence everywhere you go.

41:45Most Americans drive 40 miles a day. Most EVs are equipped with 200 to 400 miles of range. They've got fewer parts, fewer repairs, and fewer headaches. With hundreds of new and used EV models available today, there's an EV to fit every lifestyle and every budget. Ghost the gas station and save up to $2,000 a year not buying gas. EVs are perfect for real life with a daily range that allows you to drive with confidence wherever you want to go.

42:16And charging is easy. Plug in overnight at home just like your phone or use a fast charger and get back on the road in as little as 20 minutes. Learn more at electricforall.org. In a world where everyone has access to the same data and the same AI, how do you actually win? Most people are fighting for 1% gains. But the real upside, the exponential growth, comes from the creative leap. It's what Sir John Hegarty calls the creative dividend. It's the ability to make your entire

42:46business irreplaceable from your product and your process to your company culture. John's eight-part series, Creativity for Growth, is the playbook for building your creative capability and embedding it into your organization. Creativity is a system, not a spark. Learn it today. Visit creativityforgrowth.com.