A Dollop Crossover | Ben Naddaff-Hafrey on Staten Island and the Revolutionary War

Staten Island and the Revolution

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1:57Pushkin.

2:01Hey, hey, it's Malcolm Gladwell. Before we get into this episode, I wanted to let you know about my new book, The American Way of Killing. Stay tuned at the end of the episode to hear a preview and get The American Way of Killing at pushkin.fm slash audiobooks or wherever audiobooks are sold. Hey, Revisionist History listeners. This is Ben Nadeff-Haffrey. A little while ago, as part of my Staten Island summer, I went on a history show called The Dollop. It's hosted by the comedians Dave Anthony and Gareth Reynolds, who, it turns out, have

2:35both done sets on Staten Island that turned out poorly. This episode was a comeback special about an extremely niche topic. When I was reporting the Staten Island problem, I spent a day on the island with the Revolutionary War historian named Phil Pappas, learning about how Staten Islanders really did not want the American Revolution to happen. Sadly, that got cut from the show. But the guys at The Dollop did a deep, deep dive on the topic and came up with an even crazier story. And that's the episode you're about to hear today.

3:08You can listen to more from The Dollop over on their show page. And here's our episode. My father's dead. You killed him. They think that I'm shiny. I am a pie man! I'm Pete Rose, and I only go to Gold's Gym, this one specifically. Rumor is that his penis is broken. And show up where the taco bar was. His brain just fucking exploded. River of cheese! You been drinking any gnome juice? No, officer! My dad had a fart chair. Hey, cover me.

3:37You're listening to The Dollop on the All Things Comedy Network. This is an American History Podcast where each week I, Dave Anthony, read a story from American history to a guy who grabbed a drink at the wrong time. Oh, it's spilling. Gareth Reynolds has no idea what the topic is going to be about. Good Lord. But before we jump into The Dollop, which we're also calling the Revisionist History Dollop, because we have a guest.

4:08We're doing a crossover, like when Batman and Robin used to do a Scooby-Doo. Much. Who's Scooby-Doo? We're definitely Scooby-Doo. Yeah, 100%. 100%. Without questions. We have Ben Nadaf-Haffrey joining us. And thank you. Thank you for joining us, Ben. This has been like in the works for a minute. I'm honestly surprised this happened. I'm shocked. I'm shocked that. I'm not only shocked that this happened, but I was shocked in the first place that you guys immediately gravitated towards this story, because it is a deep cut.

4:42Well... It is a deep, but I like deep cuts. Oh, yeah. It's also, our buddy did it, and then Dave was like, this is crazy. So Dave's been working on it in some capacity as well. But this is because you did a series on Staten Island. Yes. And then this was kind of one that there was just kind of the leftover stuff, and we were like, well, let's do it together. So what is the Staten Island series called, and where can people listen to it? So it's called The Staten Island Problem, and you can listen to it on the Revisionist History

5:12podcast feed. That's what Colin Jost and Pete Davidson suffered from. Yeah, when they're human, when their ferry boat is... Yeah, when they... You know, they bought that Staten Island ferry, and they, for like a decade, tried to figure out what to do with it. Yeah. And just like a month ago, a state official was like, I've got a great idea. You should sink it, and we can make an artificial coral reef. I know. That's... I think there's... It's obviously been a terrible investment, but there's got to be something about being like, officially sinking. It must be a tough one. But anyway, so the Staten Island problem, and...

5:45It's about Staten Island's attempt to secede from New York City. For those who don't know, Staten Island is one of the five boroughs in New York, and the reason you may not know that, you know, it's Brooklyn, Bronx, Queens, Manhattan, Staten Island, is Staten Island calls itself the Forgotten Borough, as in like, the like, unloved, unloved borough, the one that like, no one ever pays attention to, and... It's true. It's totally true. That's like, why I did this story. I was like, they're kind of right to want to leave.

6:16They're being pouty, though, right? Oh, the chip on the shoulder is like, core to the identity. That's just like, you gotta... Should they secede? When I... Yeah. Yes. Yes, absolutely. When I lived in New York, I went there to do stand-up once, and it was like going to another country, and they hated you. Oh, I would arguably say the craziest, like, when I was first starting, the craziest set I'd ever gone through was in Staten Island, where everyone just yelled at you during your

6:50set, and every comedian went through it, so you were kind of like, it's not me, but you would just be up there, just fighting. It was... I was like, what is this? Was it a grandpa's? I don't remember if it was a grandpa's. Yeah, there was a comedy club called Grandpa's there. It wasn't a comedy club. You're like, notionally, I'm in New York, but this is not... Yeah, I was like, the train came here, but that's... It's different. It didn't work. Like, the train got me half the way. You can't... Yeah, you gotta take a ship the rest of the way, like a half hour out to sea. Yeah, which is just never good.

7:20No, but I think that's where, the reason this story that you guys have actually done, and I know very little about ultimately, but it's about how, what I, why I gravitate towards this story is because it shows that Staten Island is like eternally not part of New York City. Yes. Like, they're just, they are always on the other side. Oh, yeah. So that's, I'm happy that you guys are doing this. When I was going through this, I was like, oh, it's exactly the same. It's 200 years later, and it's exactly the same. Well, I don't even... 250 years later.

7:50I don't understand what, 200, I will not allow that last celebration for the 250 to be real. I want to redo. I want to do a 255 once we maybe get through some of this, which we won't. Anyway, well, welcome to the listeners from yours, and we encourage our listeners to go check out the Staten Island problem and weigh in. And now let's do whatever the hell this is.

8:181738. Dave yells the date on our show. Yeah, I've heard enough that I know that. Okay. I don't like the way you put that to be honest. I've heard enough. I've heard enough. That's how a lot of people describe our show. I've heard enough. Yeah, I've heard enough. I saw one comment on the one I listened to that was like, when they get, it's like usually in a dollop episode, when they're 25 minutes in, and like you have the main character is like four years old, and he's lived in three brothels, like that's par for the course. But when you're like 25 minutes in, and he's like middle-aged, you know, some crazy stuff

8:51is coming. That's right. Yes. Yeah, that is very true. Yes. Yeah, the quicker they age, the more you know it's a crazy story. Yeah, yeah. Like not a lot known about his boyhood. You're like, this is going to be bad. Oh, boy.

The Billup Family Legacy

9:03Christopher Billup. He has two Ps on the end of his name, which really throws me off. I want to go Billup. It's like Verrazano with the N's. That's right. Was born on Staten Island, New York. He would be the oldest of eight alive kids born to Thomas and Sarah Farmer Billup. Now, we always say alive kids because they had a lot more. Like if you had eight alive's, there were some that didn't make it. Yeah, we don't count the dead ones here. I don't know about you, Ben, on yours. I don't know. It's the pre-vaccine world.

9:34There's so many that passed. You know what I mean? There were eight living descendants in this family? Eight living. Yeah, he had eight. That's remarkable. He had seven brothers and sisters. That's what's more affordable on Staten Island. Eight, that is numbers, too. That really has to be. You're batting above average. You've got to be putting out 20 to get eight. There's also a robust mosquito population on Staten Island in that era. You know, a lot of disease from mosquitoes. So they're really crushing it.

10:04Mosquitoes have really hung in there with their disease. They really don't like them. I was driving here. There's one in my car. I'm like, what's happening right now? I'm leaving town. Keep going. Keep going. Let's go to Tijuana. Get me out of here. Get me to Staten Island. You live for half a day.

10:24Okay, so Christopher's dad, Major Thomas Billup, was the son of Ann Billup, who married a colonel. And Ann was the daughter of a Royal Navy officer, another Christopher Billup, who was awarded 932 acres of land on the southern tip of Staten Island. And he builds a big stone manor house. The land is named Bentley Manor. So they're loving it. It's pretty sweet. Yeah. It's a lot of land. Yeah. 930 acres on Staten Island is two on regular scale.

10:58One two-bedroom apartment. Yeah. It's a steeper one. It's a studio with a stove.

11:05So young Chris is destined to be in the military. He's from a military family. And eventually, he does, and he becomes a colonel, which is what everyone on Staten Island eventually starts to call him. So by the 1770s, he's known as a colonel. By the powers of deduction, you would say there were not a lot of colonels from Staten Island. Otherwise, that's it. Why? Remember, we're the Scooby-Doo part. So I just want to be very clear. We're the Scooby half.

11:36Does that mean I have to, like, growl Batman voice this? No, you can be what Dave's kid called the wacky Batman. Yeah. I'll be wacky Batman. I'll be 1960s, like, kapow, bazinga Batman. Watch out. Yeah.

11:52So Bentley Manor had been built up over the years, and now this Christopher Billup owns it. So there's the Stone House on the Water that's grandfather built. There's four more houses that he would rent out. And a neighbor remembers him. He's a very tall, slim man. Sure. Staten Island at this point. Mostly farms. Okay. If you can believe that. I can't. Everything else is agriculture. There's wheat and orchards. What is a staten? Oh, well. It's a Dutch term.

12:23Is it? For what? I think so. I don't know.

12:28Wow. Look at you asking questions that can't be answered. What is a staten? You know what I mean? There's a place called the staten on Staten Island that's very famous. Staten. Oh, interesting. It was probably at the time called, like, it's Richmond for a while, too. Oh. There's Richmond town in this, yeah. A weird change. Okay. Staten Island by Dutch explorers. Staten. Name honored the staten general, which was the parliament of the Republic of the Seven United Netherlands.

12:58I thought it had something to do with the Seven United Netherlands. You should have known that, yeah. Yeah. That's his specialty. Break it, Ben.

13:09Okay. So, there's wheat, orchards, cattle, salt hay off the marshes, oysters, and clams. Big player back then. Out of the shallows. As you know. They sell those and sell everything in New York City, mostly. But they also would sell it to the British. Sure. Have you ever read about the oysters in New York, Ben? The whole oyster situation? I knew about the oysters on Staten Island, but I didn't know about the rest of New York. There's an amazing book, which I wish I knew the title of right now, about oysters in New York. It's incredible.

13:40Oh, you also wanted to mention the book that you based a lot of your stuff on, quickly. But who is that? Well, so, yeah. All of everything we know about Staten Island and the American Revolution comes from this historian named Phil Pappas, who is himself a Staten Islander, born and bred, and wrote this amazing book called That Ever-Loyal Island. Oh, wow. That's condescending. Well, you'll see why when you get further into the story. But wait. It's a fantastic book.

14:11The oysters in the Hudson were insane, right? Yeah, I mean, we Americans just lived on oysters for a long time and ended up just decimating the oyster population. It's like everything else that we get where you're like, if you just did it a little slower, it could be forever. And we're like, no, we will eat it all and then no one will have anything. But I'm hungry now. I'm hungry to eat all the oysters now and make money. Yeah, it was really nuts. My only complaint, no indigenous people have died on this venture.

14:45We did two episodes on it. It's really crazy. OK, so they're selling to New York City. And then in the years leading up to the revolution, a lot of what they're producing is sold to the Royal Navy. A warship anchoring there. That means hundreds of men who need bread and beef and fresh water. And the Navy pays in silver. So it's a good deal. OK. And when a king's ship needs water, it fills its casks at a spring on the island's northeast

15:16shore, a spot that is called the watering place. Very good title. You know what you're getting into. Yeah. I thought this was a brothel. It's very much like a surfer. Any surf spot is named after what the restaurants, big rock. Like, it's all what you see from the surfboard.

15:40Colonel Billup has been in charge of the island's militia now for about three years, which is called Billup's Corps of Staten Island Militia. OK. Once again, we're just naming things. Yeah. Extremely aptly. Exactly. Well, it's also how book titles were, you know, when it would just be like, he actually wrote a book about it called The Endless Forests in the Area Where I Lived for Five Years and Eventually Left Because My Wife Had Tuberculosis. See, I don't need to read the book now. Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

16:11So that's a peacetime appointment. Obviously, there's no war when he gets appointed. Now, on the island, there's five churches. The biggest is St. Andrew's, which is the Angelican Church at Richmond Town. Nice. Yeah. That's what we're just talking about. Yeah. You don't need to yell about it. I'm going to. Out of the, uh, out of New Dorp. Oh, come on. Yeah, there's a place called New Dorp. Stop. I don't want to even know where Dorp came from. Dorp? Could not sound more of like the Carlos Mencia sound he made when he was calling Dorp.

16:44Dorp. You stub your toe. Dorp! It was the alt to Homer's Doe. It's either Doe or Dorp. Let's wait here. What's that? There's like, what is the alternate universe Simpsons thing? This just like triggered some deep Simpsons knowledge. It's like the Shelbyville Simpsons or something. Right? Oh, right. Yeah. Oh, no, no. When he, when he's like replaced by like Russians, there's like a, there's like a film version of the Simpsons that they're trying to pass off as the real Simpsons family. Oh, I kind of remember that.

17:14That just takes me to the, when the Flanders have a family reunion. Sure. Yeah. But yeah, I, I, I can't remember. There's like the fake Homer goes, duh, oh, or something like that. I know the English Flanders goes, oh, great googly.

17:33Moogly. Moogly. Moo.

17:40So out of New Dorp, there is a Moravian church and the minister lives beside it with his family. His name is Hector Gambold and Gambold writes a lot of letters. And so that's a lot of those survived and that's a lot of what we know. Okay. That's helpful. Yeah. So write letters, people. Yeah. Didn't help Comey, but. No.

18:04Comey was like, but my journal. They were like, yeah, get out of here.

18:08My diary. Definitely diary. Unless your name's Fauci, then don't die. Yeah. Don't, don't, don't, don't keep. I met Barbara Streisand. On the island, there's five. Oh, I already did that.

Tax Resistance and the Crown

18:18So the trouble, the trouble starts, right? Over taxes. The colonies are paying to the crown. Sure. Right. There's a big shopping boycott, as we'll call it. The British parliament closed the port of Boston because of the Boston Tea Party. Continental Congress answers by agreeing, agreeing that no colony will buy British goods until parliament backs down. And so, of course, Richmond County on Staten Island wants nothing to do with this. They want, they're not going to change anything. Right. They're like, but can't we still buy just, maybe just a little, like, we're so nice to

18:51sell to the British. That's what happens. That's the problem. It's a big market. And Colin Jost are like, now's our time. Anyone want to buy this?

19:01So Staten Island refuses to join this. And the colonel does that personally. He sits in the New York Assembly and votes down every measure that favors the Congress. And when the assembly refuses to... You got to love it. Yeah. No. No. No. No. No. No. No.

19:23That one. No. No. No. Oh, that's a no.

19:30When the assembly refuses to send delegates to Philadelphia, somebody proposes going around it and putting the question straight to the people of Richmond County. But the colonel goes to that meeting and beats it there, too, by a large majority. So it's clear Staten Island wants nothing to do with any of this business. They just want to be able to sell their stuff. Yep. They're happy. And they're happy with the British. They're like, this is not so bad. Yeah. It's pretty good. I'm making money over here. You guys keep doing that.

20:01That's helping. Then in April of 1775, the shooting starts outside Boston at Lexington. And the first thing the colonel does after Lexington is to write to the British Army and ask them not to come. And he signs a letter to General Gage, who is the British Army's commander, requesting that no troops be sent into New York. And his explanation given nine years later said he was, quote, hoping the flame would blow

20:31over.

20:33Let's just ride this one out. It's so good. Look, there's some guys got shot. Some other guys got shot. I don't see this lasting very long. It's going to blow over. I don't think this is going to go on for too much longer. If you could give us a week, that would be really helpful.

20:53So he spent a year, in his words, quote, keeping the inhabitants of the island quiet till the arrival of British troops.

21:02Meanwhile, Staten Island will not stop selling to the British Navy. Oh, God. They're the king's ships, right? And as far as Staten Island is concerned, this is the king's island. The king would request more oysters. It's called peckish again. We can just leave all these oysters in the water? Yeah. Come on. Secret oyster handoffs. There's also like, don't they, somewhere in here, they're also like, can't they propose like a truce? They're like, can't we just like make friends with the British again? It might be just a way to work this out. We made a side truce with the British.

21:35We are an island. I want to remind everyone of that. So, of course, the colonies are now pissed that Staten Island won't join the boycott. So they start another boycott. New Jersey stops buying Staten Island's produce until the island appoints an enforcement committee. So the island appoints an enforcement committee, but then just ignores it. This committee, when I went around the island with Phil, the guy who wrote the book with all this,

22:08he took me on like a tour of all these sites. It was amazing. Like every single one of them is like next to like a no-fault divorce like lawsuit clinic. Oh, my God. So we went to the place for this. It's final form. We went to the place where this committee met, which is still preserved. And I was like, what did they do here? And he's like, you know, just kind of – he just kind of like threw a ball against the wall. Sort of like just like – it was just kind of like met to meet. They were just sort of like, yeah, we're not going to look into that report of disloyalty.

22:40That's awesome. So just pure – yeah, just purely just like, yeah, we're working on it. Most of our L.A. government committees. I was going to say it reminds you very much of like the parliamentarian role or something like that where you're like, here's what I think. And everyone's like, cool. Go fuck yourself. Here's the point. It's just like letting it die in committee. It's like – Yeah, right. Interesting. Yeah. Oh, that's very interesting. Is this the first let it die in committee? Oh, man.

23:09Aw. I love that this is just like all under the framework of let it blow over. Let it blow over. Let's just let this cool down. Two, three weeks, two, two, two, two, probably two, maybe three. It's called an excursion. Right. So they're ignoring it. They're just trading with the crown still. And in February 1776, the Continental Congress writes the county into its minutes for, quote, enmity and opposition to the system and measures adopted for preserving the liberties of America.

23:41That's not good. You don't want to be written in for that. No, it's pretty targeted, honestly. Hey, traitors. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So they put us in the minutes.

23:54Boys, bad news. Oh, boy. Never great. But we are officially in the minutes. All right. I can still sell oysters, though, right? I mean, yeah, but we're on notice. I mean, we're in the minutes, and that's never good. So we got to get these oysters going quick. It's not. I think you're taking it away. Get them out the door. It's not. Again, I'm sort of saying we're in a dark spot. But, yeah, let's sell them. Yeah, get the oysters out there. At this point, the rebels, as we'll call the us, the Americans. Sure. The mainlanders. The rebels hold New York City.

24:26So that April, Continental soldiers take up posts at the watering place, standing with rifles between the Royal Navy and the island's drinking water. That's kind of – I mean, you don't want a parched, you know, the Royal Navy. You don't want them parched. You don't want the king thirsty. No, you can't even get to the no-fault divorce place anymore. No.

24:47Well, we're going to have to behead her. But what the islanders do is just row out to the warships to do business with them anyway. When you watch that, you're just like, what the hell are they doing? It's just like a tiny sailboat inching along the horizon. Loaded up with a cartoon level of oysters. They're going to go bad.

25:12They're fucking eating the oysters. Are they shucking? By June, Washington – that's George.

25:22Washington is demanding an investigation into reports that his own riflemen are taking bribes to row the islanders out. I just – This is actually the first ferry. I can't.

25:38Yeah, it's not a bad idea. I have often – I would say, Ben, the thing I've learned on this show more than anything, which is why we say that history repeats itself, or at least rhymes. I can never get over that it always has existed. That it's just like – It's just always been thus. Bribes find a way. Yeah, always. No matter what. Yeah. It's just so funny. You're going to give me $10? Okay. I'll row you out there. Yeah, I have no principles. It's like a new country sounds nice, but I mean, really.

26:11But also, my country sounds really good, too. That'd be great. So Washington is pissed. He's just across the water in New York, and he writes that the people of Staten Island, quote, after the fairest professions, have shown themselves our inveterate enemies. Wow. Now this is – That's bad. It's in the minutes again. Yeah, is that bad when George Washington calls your island an enemy?

26:41Rowing out oysters. Man, we've really put our chips down now, guys.

26:46Look, are we in or are we out, guys? I don't know. How far do we want to take this shit? I am amazed that Staten Island ever became part of New York City. It is crazy. It is geologically a part of New Jersey. It's like spiritually and geologically, it is New Jersey. It's much closer. It's way closer to New Jersey. I understand fighting that, though. I understand fighting that. Yeah. There's an annexation movement. Oh, to join New Jersey? In 2025. I think it's still afoot, maybe. The Republicans in New Jersey are like, it would be helpful to have that island.

27:19Oh, yeah. I bet it would. At some point, they'll blow up the Verrazano Bridge. That was floated during the secession movement. They were like, when this happens, we'll blow up the Verrazano.

27:33It's kind of awesome. It's just in 2025 to be like, we would like it.

27:41Let's blow it up. Is that crazy?

British Landing and Occupation

27:45On July 3rd, 9,000 British soldiers begin landing on Staten Island. Unbelievable. Led by General William Howe, commander of the British Army in America. On July 4th, 1776. Now, that's a big day. Is it? You know what happened then? Oh, that was when we wrote the song that I got to stand for. That's right. In Philadelphia, the Continental Congress declared the colonies independent. And on July 6th, 1776, in Richmond Town, Staten Island, 500 men gather in the road.

28:17Richmond Town is right in the middle of the island. There's a courthouse, two churches, a tavern, a few dozen houses, so not a big place. A divorce. Divorce. Divorce. Hut. That was at fault. At fault divorce. At fault divorce, yeah. Governor William Tryon watches them. Tryon is the royal governor of New York, and he has been running the king's government off the deck of a ship in the harbor for a better part of a year because the rebels hold the city. Yeah. He's trying his best. Yeah, he is. Yeah. Yeah. And next to him there is General Howe.

28:49In front of them, the 500 Staten Island farmers are sworn into the service of the king. They are from Billups Island Militia. This feels traitorous. It does. Very much so. I was going to say, but there are still a lot of loyalists around, but this is just a giant group of them in one place, but there's a ton of loyalists hoping to be British. In New York at large, but Staten Island is remarkably so.

29:20Yeah. Remarkably. Honey, I think we're Britain again. I'm not sure. They're taking some kind of oath out there. Wait, my favorite thing that Phil told me is that the Islanders burn the Patriot leaders in effigy after word of the Declaration of Independence comes out. And also that there's like all of these letters from the British soldiers when they arrived there where they're writing home and they're like, this island is amazing. And they're greeting us as like saviors from the rebel mob.

29:52And they're just like, they can't get over how happy they are that we're here. They're like, this is awesome. They got effigies in their government. This is a real vibe. This is awesome. They really like us. This is really going good. Babe, I'm famous here.

30:12So the 500 men are out of a total population of 2,847. And that includes children and slaves. Well, if memory serves, they're not considered people. Yeah, correct. So that's a pretty big chunk of the population. Yeah, it's a good hunk. For the colonel and his men, job very easy at first. They watch 15 miles of shoreline facing New Jersey. Okay. You got to keep an eye on New Jersey.

30:43Sure. It's still the same. It's still the same. They arm and assemble every time an alarm goes up with the colonel at the front. They dig dirt walls into the hills for the British to put cannons behind. Really? They got the good job. They are like, is it an island or a pirate ship now? It's taking on that vibe. Column A, column D. Yeah. Like, if you're watching them, be like, Jesus Christ, they're putting cannons in the dirt. There's the skull and crossbones flag.

31:15Oh, my God. Look at that. How did they get parents? They round up several hundred of their neighbors to drive wagons and haul artillery. The island's moving. There's a sail moving the goddamn island. It's getting farther from New Jersey. I think they're going to Britain.

31:32They haul artillery for the British Army, and the horses and wagons go with them. They find the army. It's forage and it's firewood. So they're doing everything. They're the suppliers of the British Army. Okay. So the colonel's mansion sits at the southern tip of the island, right on the water, facing That says a lot. Facing Perth Amboy. The colonel's mansion. Really does sort of justify a lot of this, if you think about it. Back then, all colonels had mansions. Yeah, that's cool.

31:59So they're right across this narrow channel from New Jersey. You can row across in a few minutes. Okay. And New Jersey is rebel ground. So the colonel's house is visible from New Jersey, as is the colonel when he just stands outside. What the fuck? Like you can see him. It's like how Sarah Palin describes Russia. I can see Russia from my house. I can see New Jersey from my house. But you're able to see him like, what is he doing? He's in a robe. He's having some hot beverage. He's really stretching. Oh, he's waving. He's enjoying himself.

32:30Years from now, we'll call it yoga. Yoga.

32:37He's counting gold again.

Rowing Batman and Kidnapping

32:41Across the water in New Jersey is a rebel named Nathaniel Fitz Randolph. Everyone calls him Captain. I'm going to call him Fitz. Okay. He's about 30 years old. He spends the war rowing over to Staten Island in the dark. Okay. And he does it often enough that papers on both sides are writing about how he's famous to the rebels and infamous to the loyalists. So everyone knows who this guy is. Do we have like a rowing Batman? Yes, a rowing Batman. It was a slow news period.

33:12There wasn't, nothing big was happening in, you know, world historic events. Who is Roman?

33:20But even the people who hated him conceded that he was decent to the many captured and did not let his people rob houses. Sorry, who is he capturing? Yeah, I missed that. So he is rebel American going over and grabbing whatever, a soldier or whatever, or an important person from Staten Island. Okay. So he's anti-Staten Island, obviously. So he's... He's anti-British and therefore anti-Staten Island. Yes, because Staten Island's part of Britain. He rows over and he does a comedy set. Yeah. He comes back. Yeah. They boo him.

33:51That did not go well. So he's rowing over there and he's grabbing like someone of note and then he's bringing them back to the mainland and people are like, oh, it's good. That's right. And they're like, what the hell are you doing? He's like, it's a vibe. Staten Island, it's popping. This is how bad comedy is in Staten Island. David Tell went before me and he got off stage and was like, oh God, get me out of here. It is bad. I want to hear more about these Staten Island sets you guys did.

34:24I didn't even realize there was a comedy circuit that went through there. I one time did, I think I did stand up on the ferry to Staten Island and it was a death sentence. They're just slamming on the accelerator. It was the first trip that took 10 minutes. I was like, that's a lot of smoke. You're really cooking. That was, oh God. I know who books that gig or did. The guy who booked it for me was a guy named Pudge, I believe. Oh, okay. That's different.

34:54Yeah. And it was, it was horrible. I bombed and then I bombed and then could hear people talking about how I bombed. I literally at one point said to someone, I go, I can hear you. She was like, oh, sorry. I was like, yeah, it's okay, but keep your voice down. Yeah. So grandpa's was in New Dorp, grandpa's comedy club. And grandpa was Al Lewis from the Munsters. That's who owned it. That's why it was called grandpa's. Wow. Dave's 80.

35:24Dave, Dave fought for the British. I did. A little bit. I still am. This is going to happen. He took an oath after his set. Should we reconsider? They paid him in oysters. 250 years, it's been long enough. It's not a bad idea. The rogue guy grabs him. Oh, come on. You're going back to the mainland. So the colonel puts a hundred pound bounty on Fitz's head. Okay. So then Fitz, in response, put a hundred pound bounty on the colonel's head. He's not allowed to do that.

35:55And he one ups it and said he was going to have to go get the colonel himself. Wow. So I guess he gets his own bounty. Yeah. Do you pay yourself for taxes? Self-dealing. That doesn't happen until 250 years later in American history. You got to be president to do that kind of thing. Insider rowing.

36:15He then gets a tip that the colonel will be attending a ball on Staten Island. Who's the tip from? This guy keeps looking over there and he can see everything.

36:26With bald eyes. He can just. How do I know? Because there's actually a ball going on right now. The colonel's at it. So it's several miles inland from his estate. So Fitz heads to Staten Island. And he goes to the house where the ball is happening. This guy's wife, by the way, definitely was like, he's cheating. He's a hundred percent. Oh, you're going to Staten Island again? You can just tell me if it. Okay. What's her name? I'm going to Staten Island again to try to get the key. Uh-huh. And he, so he goes to the ball.

36:58He peeks inside so he can get a look at the colonel and see what he's wearing, worried that he might grab the wrong guy in the dark. So he wants to see. Poorly lit ball. What a setup. I'm going to have to, I'm going to have to go by feels. Should we immediately option this to be a movie? A major motion picture? This is like a Marvel plot. Roman. So, so Fitz, Fitz, Fitz Rant, Fitz Rant, he's a wanted rebel.

37:33He has a price on his head, a hundred bucks or pounds. And he goes into a ball of a room full of loyalists on an island held by the British Army. Did he dress up? Yeah. I don't know how he pulled it off, but some people did recognize him, but acquaintances, but they didn't say anything. So he just, but he must've, he must've been playing the part a little bit. I don't, I don't, you imagine he's just winking at a lot of people. How good are the British, huh? Look at all these oysters. This is awesome.

38:03This is living. This is great, huh? I hope the mainland rower never comes this way. Oh, Colonel, nice outfit. Wait, how do we know that some people recognize him? It's like after the fact, it's like, oh yeah, I saw that guy. I knew who that was. You don't get invited back. It's gotta be in the letters. Yeah. I don't know how else you'd know. That's all we got. That is a weird thing to put in your letter though. Some people knew him. Others didn't. Definitely people wrote about it years later. So maybe that's why. Okay. The next morning, the Colonel is riding home from the ball.

38:36He's tired. He's half asleep. So he did an all-nighter at the ball. He's probably hungover. He did an all-nighter at the ball? Yeah. Yeah. And when Fitz steps into the road right in front of him and seizes him. And the details have been lost to history, but for some reason, by July 27th, he's back on Staten Island, resuming his duties. The Colonel is? Yeah. What? They caught him. He caught him, which he's trying to do for a while. And then all of a sudden, he's free. And we don't know why. What is the time difference between when he caught him to when he was back on the island

39:06We don't have the date of- Wait, the Colonel never wrote, like, an extremely self-aggrandizing book about all this? He just- He tweeted a bit. He assumed history would. No, he didn't. He assumed that history books would be like- And he never anticipated this. No, he never was like, this won't work?

39:25He was probably exchanged because he was kidnapped for the sole purpose of trading in a prisoner exchange. Okay. So he's probably traded. Okay. But this is not- I would hold on to that one. Yeah. Yeah. This is not close to over.

Prisoners and Winter Raids

39:40In February of 1779, a waiting party from Staten Island comes for Fitz in Jersey. Oh, okay. At three o'clock in the morning, a party of loyalist troops cross from the island. They land. They walk into town. Nobody sees them because it's 3 a.m. Nobody's up. And they go straight to the house where Fitz lives. This is going to be very validating for the cheating thing, though, for him. He'll be like, see? I've been wrong. I'm telling you. They're coming to get me.

40:10Unbeknownst to the raiding party, a rebel scout from a nearby post has stopped to spend the night at the house. Okay. So there are 12 rebel soldiers inside with Fitz. Oh, tough. That is brutal. It's not what it looks like. No, no. Yeah. He's like Jason boarding the room. He's like, there's only candles. So the sentry does not see the loyalists until they have nearly surrounded the building. Okay. And then he fires a musket once and runs away.

40:42Wait, who does Fitz? No, the sentry. Oh, the sentry. Okay. Oh, that guy. I love that guy. That's me. That's what I'm doing. I'm shooting at once and I'm taking off. Well, to be fair, I mean, he's like, it's going to take 20 to reload. Yeah. Absolutely. Words out. I'm going to get a coffee. So when the gun goes off, the loyalists storm the house and they just take Fitz and the other 12 guys easily with that incident. They're just like, ah, they're probably all laying on the floor asleep. Yeah. Yeah. On the way out, they steal the buckles of the shoes of the women in the house.

41:12Smart. Tough. You got to get your stuff. That's just economics.

41:17I'm like, how is everyone arranged? There's like one room with like 12 guys on the floor and then there's like bedrooms with the women of the house. When I picture these times, I always just imagine the three stooges. Sleeping caps. One of them's like.

41:33Oh, there's definitely a couple. If there's a bed, there's definitely three or four soldiers. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They do the 69 sleep. When up until, I don't know when, the fire departments in the late 1800s, it was just always two dudes in a bed. That's just the way it was. Which is what I say we should do. Moving in fast motion. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, right. Yeah, yeah.

41:55So he's put in a provost prison in New York and then the British put him in irons. Oh, dear. Now, the rebels keep coming for the colonel. And in March, the New York Gazette reports that two or three different parties have lately been at his house, quote, in order to captivate him once more with a view to get him for an exchange. So they're trying to get him to swap with for fits. They just think he's valuable. They're not like this guy is quarterbacking the whole thing.

42:28They don't think he's like the linchpin of the British effort. They just think they'll do anything to get him back. Yeah. Why don't they take him? Why don't they? The colonel? Yeah. They can't. They just can't have been able to steal him. Seems like it couldn't be that. It's hard to grab a guy, especially if you grab him from New Jersey. Yeah. I mean, it's hard to grab him. He's right there in front of his house. I could go get him. How can we not get this guy? He's doing yoga every morning at 9 a.m. We can see him.

43:01So they do a couple of raids. They both fail. But then a third on June 23rd, 1779. Does not. As previously mentioned, the colonel's house can be seen across the water. So the rebels station men in the steeple of the town church and give them orders to watch for the colonel to come home. Is this a Trojan church? Literally like, you guys, I got a great plan. Hear me out. How did this take years? We watch his house.

43:31Huh? So someone on the mainland invented hiding. And this is going to be, this is going to be huge. This is a huge technology, a huge breakthrough. What this is, is not revealing where you are right away. It works better in summer when there are leaves. You guys remember surprise parties? It's that, but for kidnapping. This is going to change all war. This is big. Peter Thiel has the copyright. So he comes home. The rebels head across.

44:02So they wait for him. It's not like they're waiting in Staten Island hiding. They're still across in Jersey just watching the house. The rebels. How did nobody, how was nobody like, we could do this over there? Also like, to be visible from New Jersey, you have to be at like the most extreme, like outer edge of Staten Island. Like he must have been the farthest south point of New York. I believe it is. I believe it's right there. He is taunting at this point. Yeah. You really, I mean, obviously if there's only like a little bit you can see and you're

44:37like, I choose to live there. You would think he would just be going out, dropping his pants and slapping his butt cheeks. Yeah, he's spreading. He's doing the spreading again. There he goes. He's spreading. So they head across in a boat in silence, muffling the sound of the oars, as you do. Sure. They land. I don't think you, it's probably quite ineffective, but you maybe just have to lay it flat. Yeah. It's really, it's really taking a long time to get there. They land, they walk up to the house. We're back on the mainland. In a single file, they walk up to the house.

45:08They give the countersign and go inside without anybody raising the alarm and the colonel's in bed. Yeah. He's sleeping. Sure. So they just grab him. And when they're taking him out of the home, he asks for time to grab his hat.

45:27Well, I mean. It was really different back then. There are rules of engagement and there are war crimes. And obviously you've got to let the guy get his hat. We do. There's a lot of hat stuff on the island. Hat fetching. Yeah. Well, we've gone through a lot of the hat respect. There's like, if someone is in disarray, the papers are always like, he was without a hat. Like that's to describe how messed up things were. No, if you think taking your hat off for the national anthem is a pain in the ass, you have no idea how lucky you are.

46:00They don't allow him to grab his hat. What? Wow. The actual fuck? Oh man, things have changed. Well, that's not good. Well, that is just, I mean, that is not gentlemanly. Death. His own guard is posted a short distance away, but never noticed a thing. They got comfy. One rebel goes into the stable and takes the colonel's horse, beautiful animal, and takes it down to the water. But the horse, because he's a jerk, will not get in the boat. So the man shoots the horse.

46:31Jesus. I don't know why. I don't think we need that detail. What else are you going to do with the horse? I mean, look. If it's not going to get in the boat, what other options are there? So I just killed it. What? Yeah, yeah. Just let the thing go. It's a nice horse. Yeah, I should have. I should have. What are you doing? It's all happening so fast. Yeah, but there's so many moving pieces. It's not happening fast. This is the slowest thing ever. I know. Hiding, hiding, I'd kind of turn my mind around. And I did stomach, so it's a slow one. Why would you shoot him in the stomach? I just completely...

47:01No, we walked through a lot of versions of this. We never talked about that horse. Well, you're not supposed to take a horse. What is with a horse not getting on a boat? Doesn't it understand? Who thinks a horse will get on a rowboat? I completely agree. Completely agree. Can you do stealth mode rowing when you have a horse passenger? Trying to get a horse. The oars are quiet, but the neighing is very loud. Trying to get a horse on a rowboat. It's making it harder to row. Horse was definitely behaving rationally.

47:32It's like, A, you don't need me. B, absolutely not. I'm not going to go. Yeah. No. No. So the gunshot alerts the British that something's going on. The idea that you could have just left the horse, not only for ethical reasons, but to sneak off better. Yeah. Well, I shot the horse. The British know. I buckled. He looked mean. He looked real mean. He was going to be weird. What do I want me to do? I buckled like a lady's shoe out there. I shot the horse twice.

48:05But it's too late because Jersey's so close that by the time the British organizing get down there. All right. We're ready. They're back on the mainland. Yeah. They're in Jersey already. So Colonel's now a prisoner. But it's not so bad. Basically, he promises the Continental Army he will not escape and will not take up arms. In exchange, they let him do his thing in New Jersey. So he's basically just cruising around in Jersey now, and he promises not to do anything bad. That's the prisoner situation. I don't understand.

48:35That's how it works with officers. It's a gentlemanly agreement. But then why not let him take his hat? Exactly where I was going. Well, here we go. Exactly where I was going. He's going to hold a grudge, isn't he? As he should. Just walking around all that time. I mean, he can see it from where he's being. He can see it from where he's. It's right there. Right there on the hat rack. It's right there. I mean, I can grab it. Right next to the yoga mat. Yeah.

49:01So as long as he keeps his word, he stays out of his cell, right? So for four months, that is Colonel Christopher Billups' sentence. Okay. Exile in New Jersey. Yeah. Yeah. May I go in the jail now?

49:20But then in October, New York State blows that agreement up. The legislature convicts him of loyalty to the king. Yeah. We knew this. Yeah. We all knew this. Yeah. We knew. What are we doing? We knew that. The four months is the issue. He's in the legislature being like, we should all. Yeah. And you are sentenced to no hat. Well, guys. Guys. So the colonel is banished, and everything he owns is taken by the state.

49:51You're going to Staten Island. So they take his 1,078 acres, the stone house, his grandfather built, the dead horse they take. They take everything. Damn. The hat. Jesus. In New York, the British are holding- Put it on in front of him. No! No! In New York, the British are holding two American prisoners in irons. One is Nathaniel Fitzrandoff. So New Jersey decides to answer that by doing the same thing to a loyalist, and that's Colonel Billup.

50:25Okay. So the governor of New Jersey wrote a letter saying the state had no personal resentment against the colonel. Quote, it is his particular misfortune to be in our possession at this melancholy juncture. Hate to do it. We got to put this guy in prison. The amount of things that were emotionally written back then, and the amount of things that weren't, and this is one where he's like, it's melancholy. We're down. I'm really sad. I got to put this guy in a prison. It's tough. And what, he was just like bopping around New Jersey, and then they were like, things

50:57have changed. That's right. Events are such that now you must be in manacles.

51:05That was tough. But it is where he wrote, Borden to run. So on November 6th, the colonel is actually sent to prison. There are two letters that are sent with him. The first is for the jailer. Quote, you are hereby commanded to receive into your custody the body of Colonel Christopher Billup, prisoner of war, herewith delivered to you, and having put irons on his hands and feet, you are to chain him down to the floor in a close room in the said jail, and there so detain him, giving him bread and water only for food.

51:39Comma with melancholy. Yeah, that feels very standard as far as... Doesn't it? Yeah. They're like, okay, yeah, so he's a prisoner. Got it. It's like the hiding thing. They're like, we got to really spell this one out. Yeah. Don't get him wet. Don't feed him after midnight. Comma New Jersey, comma Earth. Yeah.

52:03The second letter is for the colonel. By the way, bread and water.

52:09You give me that for three days, I'm not upset. Really? That sounds pretty good. I think it was longer than three days. Yeah. No, eventually I'd be like, can I get some butter? But for the first few days, I'm carving and loving it. So the other letters to the colonel, the official who signed the first one says he is sorry. He writes, quote, to be under the disagreeable necessity of treating him this way. But retaliation is directed, and the colonel can end it any time he likes by writing to New York and arranging better treatment for the two American prisoners.

52:40So they're saying they just want Fitz and the other guy out of irons. Right. And he can do that. Yeah. He's like, yeah, how about you get involved? Wow. What a... We can unmanacle the right hand or the left if you're a lefty. That is such a strange situation to be in. So he is chained to a jail floor eating bread and water in order to improve the living conditions of the guy who kidnapped him in the first place. Wow. So weeks go by, and a message comes to the colonel from George Washington.

53:17George tells him to resign his command of the militia, and he can go home. Nobody will touch you or your property during the war or after it. So that's a pretty good deal. That is the perfect deal. Take it. Yeah. He says no. What the... He likes being in charge of the militia. Dudes are... Men have never been sane. He's like the king... This is the rather than go to therapy. Yes. Exactly. This is just like, dude, look, just say you miss your dad. No.

53:47No.

53:49Chain me tighter. He says no. It's psychotic. But regardless, in December, the two sides work out a trade, and the colonel gets to go home on the 26th. 19 days later, the water freezes. Now, the winter of 1779 into 1780 was the hardest of the century. Water rays around New York froze solid enough to carry infantry, artillery, and cavalry across... Calvary across the... Roman was like, this is tough. Just on foot. I've been made redundant.

54:21Yeah. So, on the night of January 14th, 1780, Washington... They thought everyone was Jesus? Another Jesus!

54:30So, on the night of January 14th, 1780, Washington sent 2,500 men across the ice into Staten Island on 300 sleds borrowed from New Jersey farmers. Whee! Whee! This is fun! Huh? Yay! The whole British force on the island was 1,800 men, so not enough to... Yeah, so Washington's done fucking around. Yeah. So, the British army asked the colonel to call out his militia. In town, the militia is mostly... Up until now, they've been mostly just doing the grunt work, right?

55:02Right. Building stuff and bringing the supplies. Okay. Digging. So, yeah. Digging. Mainly digging. Mainly digging. A lot of holes. What are we digging for? Not sure. Keep going. So, combat like this is something new. So, the colonel goes to his militia, and he asks them to come into the fort at Richmond, and then he begs them. He tells them what the Americans will do to this island if they take it, which is... The Americans. Hang some of them, right? Uh-huh. And ruin the rest.

55:33Sure. Hang some. And then... Do a set. Burn some. Yeah. Another set.

55:40May I be hanged? And then he walks into the garrison, like, let's go. And then nobody, nobody follows him. Not one man would join the garrison. They then go to the public houses instead to drink and hear the news, or they just went home to see about their cattle or their land. And these are not secret rebels. They were men the American government had marked, many of them refugees out of New Jersey.

56:10Some who had every reason. That is just remarkable. Some New Jersey refugees. That's what they call them in New York City. We've been through so much. Aren't you just doing this to make money on oysters? Yeah. Our home is gone. It's there. So some of them have every reason to expect to be hanged if the Americans win and lose everything they had, right? But they're still not going to step up and fight.

56:40Wow.

Destroyed Fences and Churches

56:41The truth is, the British had overstayed their welcome and then abused the island and its people badly. Yeah. So a man named Blake, interviewed years later, said, quote, the soldiers in general behaved at first very well, paying for everything that they took. But when they came back from Jersey, they stole everything they could lay their hands on.

57:03They started with fences.

57:07Wait, they started with stealing fences? That's right. What are you going to take? They fenced fences? Wow. You guys are being too literal. All right. Now this is how you fence, right? No. If we put this up on the battlefield, they'll never get us. Look at all these posts. Idiots.

57:28Fences are very important for a farm community like Staten Island. They keep the livestock from eating the crops. But the British soldiers needed firewood. So they just used the fences. So wait. My cow's over there.

57:43It's chaos. Oh, my God. So, yeah, we got all this wood for our fences. And we're quite cold.

57:53Is that possible?

57:56Local Isaac Simonson, quote, the fences were all destroyed, not a rail being left in three months. Wow. At that time, things were very cheap. After the British came, prices more than doubled. Can I say, like, in the eternal Staten Island-ness of this story, this is, like, 18th century NIMBYism. They're, like, literally not in my back. You're, like, you took away what demarcated my backyard. That was the taxes also. You think NIMBY's bad now. Yeah. I mean, the British were so, the thing my mind always goes back to is when they took Philadelphia, you know, they just took over houses.

58:34And instead of using an outhouse, they would just, they just cut holes in the floor. Oh, my God. And we just used that as their toilets. Oh, my God. So, they're not great. Not good guests. That's tough. There's an outhouse. There's also an in-house.

58:54Christ. And that's how bathrooms are invented. We call it the loo. Yeah. By the way, they weren't, the pitch was good. The pitch eventually. Directionally, yes. Eventually, we got there. A pipe and maybe. There's nothing worse than the long hike. Dad's pooping.

59:14He's taking that long walk of shame. The first time the army went to New Jersey, a proclamation went out. Or if there was no toilet paper in the outhouse, that weird walk back to the main house. That is a rough one.

59:27Dad, were you shot? No. Without a teepee. They just used their jacket and throw it away behind. It's tough. It's a good conversation, though. The first time the army went to New Jersey, a proclamation went out telling everyone to put their fences back up.

59:45What? We found the issue that really gets them going. It's just like how we get an amber alert. Oh, God, it's a fence alert. Then the army came home and destroyed the fences again. Damn it. What did the British use for firewood once they used up all the fences, you ask? Well, the churches, of course. Oh, my God. Tough. They're like literally the stuff that's most important. They're like, let's do that first. What about the trees? Is there a church here?

1:00:12There was a there was a reformed Dutch church at Richmond town. A frame building finished right about when the war started. A minister named Van Pelt, quote, the British used it gradually up for firewoods. Wow. They just used up the whole church. Wow. Well, now take the priest. A Presbyterian meeting house became a hospital and was then destroyed. This might be how they started burning people at the stake. Seriously. They're like, we got we need more firewood. No, they needed the stake. What about that lady?

1:00:43Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Can't use a good stake for that. Yeah. All right. Not the stake. We'll burn them on her. The two women. Tape them together. Dolores, stand as long as you can. Do you understand? You've had tape this whole time? Yeah. You guys don't have tape? And yoga? Yeah. You guys don't do. You don't have tape and yoga? The Dutch church at Port Richmond had a balcony, a steeple with a bell on it, and shingles from the ground up. Those are gone. Good night. Soldiers lived in it until eventually it blew over in a storm.

1:01:19No one is inside, but it blew over at New Dorp, which is a name I'll never get over and no one should. And when it blew over, they all said, Dorp. Yeah. A chorus of voices rose up. Oh, Dorp. Soldiers set fire to Gamble's Moravian church, then came into the parsonage one evening, frightening his family, destroying their furniture, and carried off the congregation's records, probably to burn.

1:01:49Gamble wrote that a complaint by civilians to British officers commonly makes bad worse. One islander said he obeyed the two officers quartered in his house without ever objecting because there was no use in it. Quote, if I'd done so, we should have been requited with a curse and a blow of their swords. Awkward. It's just amazing that they're treating the people that they're helping, that are helping them like this. Yeah, right. And that the people are taking it like, well, okay. So civil, civil government is... There's an outhouse, guys.

1:02:20No. No. Civil government has stopped existing at this point. The courts were closed. The courthouse was burned. Jesus. Can we get that gavel?

1:02:32And yeah, these are their allies. So by this point, the militia members aren't really feeling particularly inclined to lay down their lives for the crown. You guys don't seem to have that... You're not excited anymore. Am I crazy? What's going on? So when the American rebels arrive, nobody is there to stop them. Uh-huh. But the garrison held. The British spies had warned them Americans were coming and they were ready. And the soldiers stood on a frozen island in a blizzard for a day and a half and went

1:03:02home without incident. But after the army came hundreds of American civilians with sleds. They were dead set on looting the hell out of Staten Island. This is how it happens. Stop saying we. Not an invading army. No. People like... Way better. ...getting stuff.

1:03:21They emptied a man's store while he stood in it and burned another man's two sloops. His two sloops? Sloops. Sloops ships? Ships. Some kind of ship. Small ships. Sure. They took cattle, horses, carriages, bedding, and furniture. They took people. Long after the war, a man named Pompey Prowl remembered that night. He said ice was so strong that, quote, the Americans come over and steal colored people and sell them for slaves. Oh, sweet God. Never. Never good.

1:03:51Gotta make a buck, right? Never good. At all costs. You gotta make a buck. Wait, the first part of that is ice was so strong? Yeah. So they could just run across the land. Their funding was in the Homeland Security bill. You're thinking, yeah. I get the... In today's environment, I get the mix of... I was just trying to parse. What was being claimed about the climate? This is... Imagine a time when Tom Homan had teeth. That's what was happening in this area. No such time. The Colonel's house was looted to, of course. Quote, the severe frost at last gave the rebels an easy access to his farm on the ice

1:04:26when they carried off a black man, his cattle, horses, carriages, bedding, and other furniture to a large amount. Not the bedding! Not the bedding, yeah. No!

1:04:37Magistrates valued the lot at 944 pounds. It also, he said, compelled him to move his family out of so exposed a situation. So he's like, well, I gotta go. He's lost it all, I think. Yeah, I gotta get out of here. This is full repossession. I also... Yeah. Go ahead. This house, I believe, in... I think it is Billup's house where the attempt at a truce conference in the beginning of the revolution is held. Like, after the British launched the big battle in New York City from Staten Island, on September

1:05:1411th, I think, 1776, they're like, all right, now you've seen what we can do. Do you want to make nice? And they invite, I think it's Ben Franklin and maybe Adams, over to Billup's house on Staten Island. Wow. And they're like, we can make this all disappear. You just, like, agree that nothing happened, and you love the king, and it can all go back to as it was. And that's, like, that's the moment when we all, we could have just remained part of Great

1:05:44Britain and we chose not to. Oh, my God. I forgot that. That's so great. They were probably like, this is the most important thing that'll ever happen on 9-11. Yeah, exactly. This is huge. History will remember this. They will never forget what happened in here today. Phil Pappas remembers this. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, right, yeah. So, the colonel moves. After he comes back from prison, he stops sleeping in his house. Every night, he walked up from Bentley to his father-in-law's to sleep, and every night,

1:06:18somebody sat up to watch over him while he slept, because the colonel was a very hard snorer, and he was worried he would sleep through another kidnapping attempt. Oh, my God. Come on. That's REM I've never experienced. That's amazing. You're stressed enough that you're worried that you're going to be kidnapped at any point, but you're still sleeping deeply enough that you need someone to watch you. It's like, I would be up all night. I get 12 hours. Yeah, all night. I mean, once I'm out, I'm out.

1:06:48Snoring. Also, the logic of that makes no sense. It's like he's snoring loudly enough that he can't hear. That's probably what he thinks, yeah. I would imagine. This is a different time. They didn't know a lot about sleep apnea back then. He's still got a Casper mattress. Yeah, he does. Actually, Helix is actually the mattress he probably had. Not to jump on your sponsors, Ben, but even back then, if you want a mattress, you could be kidnapped off of him. You know what? If he's sleeping that deeply, it's probably a Helix.

1:07:20Sounds like he has a California Duxlux, which is quite up in. The Staten Island Duxlux use promo code STATENISLAND or promo code BILLUPS. It's filled with wooden fences. Yes, nice and comfy. The new Helix horse meat mattress. Filled with a whole horse. It's one of a kind. Listen, why did we shoot it? We don't know, but we stuffed it in some felt. Now you're going to felt a good night's sleep.

1:07:49So Staten Islanders are now refusing to serve in the loyalist militia, and they go further. What's their problem? Some are passing the Americans information about the strength and condition of British troops. A private complained that the residents were spying for the enemy, ambushing patrols, and taking every opportunity to shoot at the soldiers of the garrison. You're not on the same side anymore.

1:08:16It's pretty clear. It feels like it's turned. It feels like when they're actually shooting at you. I'm starting to understand how Staten Island became a part of New York.

British Evacuation and Claims

1:08:26The British had had enough, and they evacuated Staten Island on December 3rd, 1783. We've all done it. Residents came down to the shore to watch the fleet go. One wrote, quote, We are very boisterous in our demonstrations of joy. We clapped our hands. We waved our hats. We sprang into the air. And some few who had brought muskets with them fired a foot of joy. Fet of joy? I have no idea. A few others, in the exuberance of their gladness,

1:08:58indulged in gestures which, though very expressive, were neither polite nor judicious. Wow. The old fingers. One guy from Philly ate horse poop to celebrate, and everyone felt pretty weird about it.

1:09:11That is so funny to listen to how they wrote about euphoria. Boisterous. Demonstrations of boisterous joy. There were demonstrations of boisterous joy. We were waving our hats. A few gentlemen shot muskets. Hey! Remember, we have nothing. Some people left some sleds on the island, but other than that. Some people didn't realize it was the spring and tried to sled to the island. This was great. I shot a horse. Why?

1:09:41What are we at? Woo! Nobody knows how many loyalists left with the fleet, but the island came out of the war with more people than when it started. Wow. 2,847, and it was now 3,835. So they gained 1,000 people.

1:10:01And Colonel Christopher Billup left, and in September 1783, he filed his claim in London. His claim? For losses from incursions. One hat.

1:10:15Three good night's sleeps.

1:10:19My mommy gave me that hat. One yoga mat and a lot.

1:10:26Wow. Horse, obviously. Yeah. That was a tough one. Unnecessarily shot. That hurt.

1:10:33Okay, so losses from the incursions of the enemy, 1,500 pounds. Losses. Wait, I thought they were saying it was valued at 944 pounds. Did you say? Where is that inflation? That losses of the ice in one night, 944 pounds. So that's when all the people came after, when all the people just ran over and stole everything. Losses to the British military, 1,441 pounds.

1:11:06For living away from his family for seven years, 1,500 pounds. That was very tough. You could have just stopped. No, that was a tough time. For the forced sale of his land, 4,752 pounds. To prove it all, he brings deeds going all the way back to 1687. He's got orders from three generals about him having to stay there. And an American newspaper reporting on his spirited conduct in the only battle he was in. So he brings, that's his record.

1:11:37Two generals swear for him. His claim for loss of property entered in the commissioner's ledger is 5,171 pounds and 10 shillings. That's like the rest of your life, right? Yeah. You're set. That's a nice chunk. Well, then they just give him 400 pounds. Huh? What? And they offer him 80 pounds a year, I guess, in a pension or whatever. Oh, my God. The British are not looking good in this. No, they're not.

1:12:07Maybe the revolution was a good idea. For the first time ever, the British are coming out a little scathe. That is crazy. All that, they're like, we'll give you 490 a year. How's that sound? You all see it. It's terrible. It's a bad deal. Almost averted the entire thing. I gave my life up for what you were doing. Yeah. Anyway, get out.

1:12:32One sentence was added to the decision, quote, At the time, we think it is necessary to say that on his going to Nova Scotia, we mean the said allowance shall cease. So he goes to Nova Scotia, the 80 pounds is over because they know his plan is to move to Nova Scotia. And when he does, he gets no more money. He does move? Yeah. He ends up moving anyway. In those days, that's a lot of crisscrossing. It's like, why go to London from Staten Island just to ping pong right back again? Right?

1:13:03Yeah. That's how you don't make small talk with the decision makers. I was thinking, Nova Scotia is pretty nice. And they're like, got it. Newtage. I mean, I hate flying to the East Coast. I can't imagine. Oh, it's your life. Yeah. My life's been pretty much three boat rides. That's been pretty much it. Or he was sleeping there. In a couple months in New Jersey. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Billup does very well in Nova Scotia. He sat in the first New Brunswick Assembly and then on the province's council by appointment of the king.

1:13:37And he died at St. John in 1827, age 90, worth at least $75,000. Wow. That's a lot of money. That's a real. Ninety, too. Are those Canadian dollars? Yeah. Oh, yeah. There's a difference. Never mind. So it's $7. He was a bomber. Living to 90 with all that. That's really impressive. Yeah. 90 and those. That's crazy. Those are solid stats. His headstone says that his uncompromising loyalty. His headstone at the end says, turn over for more.

1:14:09Second episode to follow. Yeah. Yeah. His headstone says that his uncompromising loyalty during the American rebellion obliged him at the termination of that contest to abandon without compensation his hereditary property on Staten Island. That's what you're saying about book titles. The headstone is still just like bitter. And the headstone is also just like, you're like, wait, what? It's like, he was a traitor.

1:14:36Staten Island was under occupation for seven years and five months, longer than any community in America during the revolution. Wow. That is crazy. Yeah. At what point did I start calling it an occupation? Because at first it's like. Yeah. Like three years in. All right. Wait. Fuck this. No, no, no. You know what? This is bad for me. All right. Wait a minute. Wow. That is so. I, you know, that's what's so funny about this sort of stuff, at least for me, is I never think about these little wrinkles of how difficult this was to actually get done.

1:15:11Like, I feel like it's just like, yeah, one day it was done. And then it's like, no, no, no, no, no. Staten Island was a traitorous island. Well, and they had like, obviously it was the right position. They were just like, yeah, we have access to the British Empire. Rocking the boat is going to mean there's going to be guys on sleds coming over and kidnapping. Like, let's just. I mean, it's like a mini Hormuz.

1:15:35Well, it's almost like, like, almost like medieval or, or before. Like, you just think of all of a sudden the river's frozen and then all these people just running across the ground. Sledding. Sledding. It was actually the invention of the ice luge. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It was the Bob sledders. Sources. Philip Pappas. That ever loyal island. Staten Island in the American Revolution. Charles Anthon. Anthon. Who dropped? Pull the Y off there. Dave Anthony.

1:16:05So he's obviously taking issue. That doesn't make any sense. Yeah. It's personal now. Completely personal. The Y is the whole thing.

1:16:16Interview Notebook. Staten Island. History of Richmond County. Richard Bales. History of Richmond County. JJ Clute. Annals of Staten Island. And William Davis. The conference or Billup House. Staten Island, New York. Yeah. Wow. That was great. That's wild. Amazing. Now you didn't really know any of that, which also surprises me. I didn't know anything about the Billup story. I knew about Staten Island's preferences during the American Revolution.

1:16:48Yeah. But Billup is really an amazing, as they say in story terms, he's a great donkey. Yeah. Yeah, he really is. He really is. Well, Ben, thank you so much for joining us. I mean, this was great. Yeah, this was a blast. Thank you, guys. So just remind everyone again where they can go if we've wet the pallet of Staten Island. Yeah, if you're just like, what I need is more Staten Island stories. If you want to hear this happen in 1989 to 1993 and think about it as a parable for what's going on in the country now, then you should come listen to the Staten Island problem on Revisionist History.

1:17:27I mean, all I was thinking reading this is like, oh, so you supported a king-like sort of thing, and then you cut shit all over, and now you're mad? And how did that go over time? Interesting. How did that go in the long run? Layers. Yeah, well, thank you, Ben, and yeah, enjoy what Ben does, and your Ben listeners enjoy what we do. Yeah, this was great. Thank you, guys. This was really, really fun.

1:17:58Thank you. Part one, Dishonest Conversations. I want the wheels of time to jump the track.

1:18:09I want to leave all my troubles and not look back.

1:18:17Chapter one, A Shooting Lesson.

Shooting Range and Gun Culture

1:18:21Forty minutes outside of Raleigh, North Carolina, deep in the piney woods, there is an outdoor shooting range. Nothing fancy. A winding gravel driveway. A little shed where you sign in. A series of long shooting alleys hollowed out of the side of a hill. A man named Greg Wallace drove me there one day in his SUV. A big bag of guns and equipment in the back. Wallace is a law professor and a competitive shooter. Gray hair, thoughtful, friendly.

1:18:52We set up cardboard targets in the shape of a man's head and torso and put on ear protection. All right. We're going to start off with this one right here. This is a custom-built AR-15. It has the adjustable stock. It has a 14-and-a-half-inch barrel. But with this right here... He handed me the gun. It was much smaller than I thought it would be and much heavier. A solid block of metal.

1:19:23Yeah, yeah. All right. You want to shoot it? Yeah. Okay. All right. I will... Let's get you comfortable on this here. So, see if that works. Now, what you need to do is to hold it up here. Okay. He adjusted the rifle so it fits snugly against my shoulder. All right. And then you need to lean your head over a little bit where you can see with your... You keep looking with your right eye. You want to see that... You want to find the red dot in there.

1:19:51I want to see the red dot. You see it? Yep. Yep. I want you to bring your left foot forward. Get in that kind of boxing stance. There you go. There you go. All right. Bend forward just a little bit. All right. Now, I'm going to take it off of safety. Now, once you touch that trigger, once the safety goes off, it will fire. Okay? I fired. Once. And then twice. I missed the target badly. Wallace stepped in and made some adjustments. My feet were in the wrong place. I had taken my eye off the target.

1:20:23I hadn't been prepared for the way the rifle moved after I pulled the trigger. Then I fired again. Much better. Wallace gestured towards the cardboard cutout of a human torso at the end of the range, now with a neat bullet hole to the chest. He seemed pleased with my progress. He told me, would have put him down.

1:20:44Guns are the great distinctive feature of American life. No other country has such a wide variety of firearms owned by such an enormous share of its population. For generations, Americans have struggled to make sense of this fact. If you've ever seen a bumper sticker on a gun enthusiast car saying something like, guns don't kill people, people do, you'll have a sense of what the argument is about. Are guns the cause of America's ills or the symptom?

1:21:15In this book, we will come to a consideration of those questions in due course. But in this, the first section of The American Way of Killing, I want to focus on how dishonest this argument has become. By dishonest, I don't mean that one or both sides in the fight over guns are deliberately lying. Dishonesty comes in many more subtle flavors than that. A conversation that starts with the best of intentions can become dishonest for any number of reasons.

1:21:46When either side pretends that something is consequential when it is not. When either side avoids the right conclusion because it is too difficult. Or when either side blinds itself to the truth through laziness or indifference. The American conversation about guns is rife with these kinds of dishonesties.

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