Helping Your Friends

Four types of friend problems

0:00Welcome to the show.

0:30Well, hi there, Ralph. How are you doing? I'm doing well, Jim. How are you doing today? I'm doing well. It was fun talking with Sarah last week, wasn't it? It was. And, you know, one of the things, we had a little fun with that one. Yeah, and we should mention that Sarah was a figment, a fig newton of our imagination, right? Yeah, right. Yeah, she was actually Andrea Asaf. And the Crocodile Inspection Society agency is totally made up.

1:02We hope.

1:05Now, you know... Well, I think the AIA, the Alligator Investigation Agency, probably is a real legit one, right? Right. In Florida, especially. And the sewers of New York, and maybe the sewers of Mount Pleasant. Yeah. So here's the thing, Jim, that, you know, we often have, in fact, we talked to our recording technician this morning, and one of the things he said is, oh, I've had friends who came to me and needed my advice or needed, you know, they felt I was a good person to talk to.

1:43Yep. And in a practical way, we want to get you kind of more oriented to helping a friend. So I'm going to give you four things that friends do when they come to you. Okay. Okay. So the first one is venting. You mean, I don't want to slay the dragon, I just want to talk about the dragon? Yeah. So I've got a problem, and I really have a handle on solving it for myself, but

2:16I've got to talk about it. Okay. Yeah. The second is the quick fix. Hey, fix my problem. I got a problem, Ralph. I'm, you know, I'm broke. We've used that one before. Yeah. So here's a hundred bucks. Okay. That's good for today. Yeah. I'll see you tomorrow, Ralph. Yeah. That fixes the problem, but not really. Not really. Okay. The overwhelmed. Hmm. Now, Sarah was almost like that. I mean, just, what do I do?

2:47You know, I don't know what to do, but I don't want to do anything. Yeah. I'm working 70 hours a week. Yeah. Okay. So, and the fourth one, and this is obviously the most serious, but it's also the one that you have to be a little more careful when you're helping your friend, because this is the deep crisis. Uh-huh. Define that for me. Well, Jim, you gave the example of what I'm going to play in our scenario for today. The guy who's drinking heavily and has suicidal ideation.

3:24Okay. That's pretty deep, yeah. Yeah. That's pretty deep. So do I say, just ignore the fact that your mind is telling you you want to go sideways and just end everything. Okay. Yeah. Just ignore that. Just ignore that. Is that going to help them? No. So what do you say? Just buck up. Old sport. Yeah. Buck up. Yeah. Okay. So person in very deep crisis. So that, yeah, you might have a person number one or crisis number one, the listening one, you just sit there and listen.

4:01And you might do that once or twice, but after three or four times with the same thing, what's your reaction going to be? Maybe not so much. Well, my reaction is going to be, is the person really asking for quick help? Or are they saying I'm overwhelmed, really? Or are they saying, you know, this is, this is a little more serious than, and so you have to, as the person who's helping, be prepared to make some decisions.

4:32Yeah. It's kind of like triage in a medical sense. You have to decide what you're going to do or what you're not going to do. And will a person live or will a person, you know, live if you, yeah, okay. You, you get the idea, right? Right. So our listeners and viewers can look up the word triage and apply it.

Roleplay of a deep crisis

4:51Okay. So let's, let's start off with me. So I come to you and I say, Jim, I've got to tell you that, that Karen and I, I broke up. Okay. I've, I've been married to her for 30 years, but she came home and said, I'm out of here. Okay. Now that happened two weeks ago. And since then, I've been going through a bottle

5:26of scotch every night. Ralph, you typically don't drink anything. So this has really gotten to you. It has. Okay. So, you know, you asked me to think about this. So the first thing that is kind of going through my mind is, okay, this is very unlike Ralph and this could be this deep problem. Yeah. I mean, if it was, Hey, my wife left me yesterday and you know, let's go out for a drink. That would be

5:59one thing. But yeah, this is, what did you call that fourth stage? The, uh, deep crisis, deep crisis. So in my mind, I'm thinking, okay, this is real serious. Yeah. The ending of a 30 year relationship. Yeah. Okay. And the, the other thing is, I also say to you, you know, in addition to, to drinking scotch at a pretty good rate, a bottle a day, uh, I'm thinking to myself, you know, um, I've got, uh, I've got a

6:37firearm and, uh, you know, I usually use it for hunting pheasants, but, uh, maybe if I turned it on myself, uh, Karen would, would, uh, really be sorry when I'm gone. Okay. Now I don't know if I'm going to get that something that direct, you know, from, from this Ralph character, but because often suicidal ideation is much more subtle than that. It's sort of like, Oh, you know, she'll be sorry when I'm gone is more like what I would

7:13typically hear. But in your case, what we've got is somebody with, um, means, you know, you've got a gun motive, you're depressed and opportunity. Apparently there's nobody around. So, uh, I'm going to take my bottle of scotch. Yeah. And so I'm going to take this seriously. Um, even though it's, you know, not the typical kind of suicidal outreach that I have heard before. Um, so this is, uh, uh, sounding little

7:48alarm bells in my head. Okay. I'm not going to say, Oh, come on, buddy, buck up, you know, you can do it. Or, Hey, it was a good thing that this happened, Ralph, or, you know, anything like that. Yeah. Okay. So the thing is that, um, you would be better to say, uh, Ralph, maybe, um, maybe we should sit down and, uh, um, dig out your phone and I know the number for the

8:27the hotline and I'm going to hook you up with a, uh, uh, good therapist who can talk about depression and, uh, why it's important that you don't, uh, take an irrevocable step. Mm-hmm. Now, well, I would not do that with, with my mythical character, Ralph. I would ask him to tell me what happened. Okay. Well, tell me more about it. Yeah. Tell me more. And, um, yeah, I would get down to the, uh, uh, what, what alternatives

9:03do you have to see if this Ralph character could come up with, well, let's see, I can kill myself. Uh, I can, uh, get a divorce. I can, uh, uh, uh, reconcile. I, whatever they might be. Now they might not work because, but at least we can come up with a list of things that we can now talk about. Yeah. That would, uh, um, not necessarily preclude suicide, but would, um, give the Ralph character, you know, some, some options to think about because when

9:39people are suicidal, they have tunnel vision. You know, all I can do is think about getting rid of the pain. Yeah. You know, so that the pain, you know, you might be able to get rid of the pain in different kinds of ways other than, you know, offing yourself. And drinking a quart of scotch is a way to get rid of the pain. Right. Just don't go out and ride your motorcycle then, right? Yeah. And so you say to yourself, okay, I got rid of the pain every

10:09night for a week and a half, but you know, all that happens is I get up and I'm in pain again. Yeah. Pain from a hangover and pain from what was happening in your life, right? Yeah. So you figure, okay, so that one's not working. Right. So what could work? Well, and we can, yeah, we can talk about, so what could work is, as you said, listing, making a list of three or four or five or 10, however many we can come up with alternatives, you know,

10:47like you, you should maybe think about you, what, what could you do? Yeah. Well, I, I could say, um, it's a good thing that, uh, I'm, I'm free to get divorced and go out and enjoy the rest of my life. You could, yeah. You know? Yeah. Um, so there are alternatives other than I can, I can end my life. Yeah. So as a, a friend who's a listener, one of the things that I,

Empathy versus toxic advice

11:21okay, two things. Okay. This is a, this is a problem. That's that, you know, deep problem kind of things that goes through my head and Hey, I've got a friend who is in trouble. I've got a friend who's hurting. So, you know, I would want to validate that experience. Yeah. You know, Ralph, I, I can see that this is, you know, really something that's hurting you a lot. So we could talk about that. Yeah. You know, that's something that in fact is, and as an empathetic friend, I would want to acknowledge that. Yeah. And you might even

11:57as a friend, uh, say to me, you know, Ralph, I remember, um, 35 years ago when my first wife and I divorced, how much I hurt. So I, I know how you feel. I, I have felt those feelings. So I can empathize because that's an experience that I would have had. Yeah. And then you can say, but you may notice I'm still here. I fought through the pain and I know that there

12:37are things you can do to help you. You know, I think I would avoid that. I would, because again, that seems almost like blaming. Like I'm here and you know, you're contemplating a suicide. So I don't think I'd say that I would validate the experience. It must be really hard. And then, you know, I would, uh, I think, um, I wouldn't use my case as, as a, uh, as an example, as an example, you know, um, cause it's easy for somebody to say,

13:11well, that's you, but this is me. So I want to keep the focus on the me, the person who's talking. And, um, yeah, you've been drinking a bottle of scotch every day. Wow. That's, I don't even know how you can afford that, Ralph. A little chuckle there. And, um, uh, how else, what else has been happening? See, that puts it back onto the individual. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's what we want to focus on because the person that, uh, is, uh, contemplating

13:43a suicide is not going to take my suggestion. Oh, why don't you call it the suicide hot line and talk to somebody? Cause that person is now talking to me. Yeah. That's, they don't want to talk to the suicide hotline. They want to talk to a flesh and blood, you know, friend. Right. And I might not be comfortable with it, but I have to kind of suck it up and not freak out. Right. And, you know, and I'm not going to put my unease onto somebody else like, oh, well,

14:15I know a good therapist in town that you can talk to Ralph. Uh, no, no, you're talking to me. Yeah. Right. And so I've got to deal with my, anxiety, you know, with a friend who has just said, Hey, I think I'm going to kill myself. Um, and, uh, uh, you know, how do I do that? Well, I keep talking. I think that's, you know, that's, yeah. If, if, if you, if it was a, if you were, um, let's see, barricaded into a room with a gun

14:49and you were shooting outside, you know, that would be a, not a, that'd be a different scenario. Yeah. But what, what do the police want to do? They want to get the person to talk and what, keep talking, right? Keep talking. Yeah. So we're, we're going to call on the phone and try and get you to talk on the phone because we can't get in because you're shooting through the window. Yeah. Right. But in this case we're face to face. So, uh, I can't just refer this person to

15:20the suicide hotline and then say, well, see you later, Ralph. I've got to go, I'm going to a party.

Setting a follow-up contract

15:27I'm going to go drink some scotch. And the other thing, uh, and, you know, and this is often one I think that happens is, uh, you as the friend, uh, the person says, oh, you know, uh, she left me two weeks ago and I've been drinking a lot of scotch and, and, uh, I'm thinking of ending myself. And you say, uh, well, you know, I can understand that. I couldn't understand how you stayed together with your wife for 30 years. I

16:01mean, she's a real bitch and you know, how, how do you, how did you manage to do that? Yeah. You know, and then that would not be helpful, would it? No, it wouldn't be helpful. And the thing is the person would say, well, no, she was basically a really good woman. And you know, I don't understand why she left me and you know, what did I do wrong? And then we might be able to talk, you know, just you and I talk about that. Yeah. I don't know what you did wrong or what, you

16:34know, the perceptions were, but we can talk and you know, we could get it. We've been doing this one now for about 10, 15 minutes. And I think our viewers and listeners can see that it's not a quick fix at all. It's, it's something that we've got to, you know, and at the end of, you know, talking to you, suppose I have to go to work. Um, Hey Ralph, I got to leave right now, but let's talk about this again. Let's, you know, continue to figure this thing out tomorrow. Okay. Yeah. And, and make a contract. We will meet tomorrow at three o'clock.

17:09I have, yeah, I've got some time at three o'clock tomorrow. So let's get together and talk about it. Yeah. What are you going to say? I'm going to say, um. Ralph, three o'clock tomorrow.

17:23Yeah. Well. Three o'clock. Okay. Okay. What time? Three o'clock. Okay. Here? Uh, yes. Okay. So we'll see you then. Okay. Okay. So you've established contact with the person, you've shaken hands. You've got an idea that, okay, we're going to not kill ourselves in the next 24 hours. Until three o'clock tomorrow. Yeah. So you've got some time to, first of all, help yourself kind of settle down and then hopefully have, uh, a Ralph character settle down, you know, as

18:01well, you know, maybe at today, instead of a bottle of scotch, maybe he sees some light at the end of the tunnel. Okay. Maybe Jim is going to be able to help me figure this thing out. Maybe there's an alternative other than killing myself. Right. Yeah. And maybe tonight I sit down with my bottle of scotch and I have two drinks or three or four or half or half a bottle, half a bottle, not a full bottle. Right. So, so, you know, that's an improvement

18:34and the contract to meet tomorrow, that's an improvement. It bought you some time. Now, the thing is that this, we jumped into immediately the deep crisis scenario. So not everything that you have from a friend who says, I, you know, I, I've got a little problem here. Yeah. Not everything is going to be immediately deep crisis. Correct. Yeah. You know? Yeah. So I've

19:07got a little problem. I, I like riding my motorcycle, but my wife hates it. Um, well. Yeah. We can talk about that. We can talk about that, but that's, that's not a life ending problem. Right. Unless, unless, unless you ride so badly. Unless you, you know, ride your bike out in the rain. Yeah. Yeah. Well, we've

Social media harassment scenario

19:30been looking at the, the suicidal, um, Ralph character. Now, Mike, my scenario is, is different. Uh, I'm not Sarah, but I'm Jane, maybe Jane. Jane. Yes. Okay. So I have the, uh, I have the, uh, female, the XX role. Uh, and you know, I'm really depressed. You know, um, so people, so why, why people hate

20:06me, Ralph, they, they, uh, you know, I'm online and I've on my social media groups and I'm posting and, you know, most of the time people are very, very kind. Uh, but just recently, I don't know unless there've been some people out there that have really been shooting at me. Um, you know, I've been, I've been ill and, uh, you know, I put some of the pictures of me as I'm, you know, feeling better up on, um, um, social media and I'm getting responses like, uh, oh,

20:41you really look thin. Your hair's getting thin. Well, you know, I'm not in chemotherapy or anything like that, but I, I'm, I'm not feeling very well. And, uh, uh, sometimes there are some days that I just don't think I can carry on. And then I get, you know, somebody shooting at me on my, uh, um, social media account. Uh, well, when you say social media, uh, like what do you mean by shooting at you? What are they, what are they saying?

21:13Oh, I'm, I look tired, that I look haggard, that I'm skinny. Okay. Um, all of those are real negative things. That's pretty ugly. I, I can understand why it wouldn't make you feel very good. Yeah, that really doesn't. You know, I've had people say when I've told them that I'm feeling badly about this and, and, you know, I'm kind of in despair. Um, somebody posts, I don't even know the person who did it posted, uh, yeah, well, why don't you

21:46just kill yourself? Um, I didn't think you could do something like that on, on social media, or you could do something like that to a friend. And these are all my friends. Well, uh, I guess one of the questions that I might ask is, do you think they're really all friends?

22:07Hmm. Well, probably not. Okay. If you really, uh, want to be honest, you're probably the only friend I have, Ralph. This is Jane. Uh, and, uh, yeah, no, they're not, they're not my friends. They're not real friends. Okay. So once again, empathy, discussion. Now, could we, could we go into some planning? I wonder if that's the best, I wonder if that would be premature. Okay. So

22:42empathy, discussion, um, if we can get Jane to talk about, she opened it up a little bit and said, well, no, they're not really my friends. Then I wonder if we could get her to talk about, well, who are they? Well, they're, you know, just some anonymous people that are, and would you take advice from some anonymous person in the, on the street or something like that? Yeah. That's a possibility. I don't know if, you know, that's a door that we could try to open at least. Yeah. And,

23:16um, Jane might say, well, you know, there, there are people that I know who write to me and they don't say things that are quite so awful, but there are a lot of people who use names like Donald Duck, um, you know, and they say things that are really anonymous. Well, do you think you're really talking to Donald Duck or is that a pseudonym? I think it's probably a pseudonym. Yeah. Yeah. And so

23:47you say, well, you know, the people who don't know you, the people who are hiding from you. Why should you take advice from them? Why should you take advice from them? Yeah. Um, and you know, we could continue on, you know, with that. And then at some point you could maybe say, okay, you're getting dumped on a lot. Uh, what can you do? Well, you and I know what the answer is. Stop going onto social media, close out some of your accounts, but that one might not be

24:23apparent to Jane. So you're going to have to let her think about it. Well, I can't do this, but what can you do? Well, it's kind of like in our last scenario, uh, uh, at the end, the Ralph character said, well, um, I'll probably drink less scotch and I'll see you tomorrow at three o'clock. In this one, the Jane character could say, well, maybe I won't spend quite as much time online since the problem seems to come from online. And maybe, maybe one of the things that

24:57we could say, um, is before that, uh, maybe ask a question. Well, you know, on average in a, in a given day, how much time do you spend online? Yeah. Jane's going to say about the same as everybody else, about six hours. And we might say, well, we wouldn't, we're not, we're not going to give her the real data that most people spend less than six hours, right? Yeah. But we're going to say, well, you know, do you think, do you think that amount is healthy?

25:29Um, are, is there anything that you could do to reduce the time you spent? Yeah. I think there's, there's two questions there. The first one is a good one. Do you think that's healthy? And Jane can say, obviously it's not, it's hurting me. Yeah. And then the question of, you know, can you reduce? That's kind of like with Sarah last week. She knew that not delegating was a problem, but it really took a lot of conversation to get her to say, okay, I can't, I can trust enough to

26:04delegate to somebody else. So it might take Jane a while to say, yes, I know it's unhealthy, but I'm addicted to it. It's unhealthy, but I need to, you know, whatever they'll, the Jane person will have a rationalization as to why she can't, she can't reduce. Yeah. And, let me give you a real world example. This is two, three years ago, something like that.

26:35Uh, Jim and I were talking about social media and, uh, he mentioned TikTok and I said, Oh, you've never heard of TikTok. Yeah. I said, well, I, I know that TikTok exists, but I've never been on it. I don't know what happens. So I got onto TikTok and I stayed on it for about a week. Almost couldn't get off. Right. And then I found that I had gone from 20 minutes

27:07to about two hours. And I said, watching cats in hats. Yeah. And I said to myself, you know, this is not a good way for me to be reacting to social media. It's addictive. Mm hmm. Yep. And so one of the things that Jane might say, well, I, I'm addicted. She might, you know, or she might not even realize that she's addicted. Yeah. You know, but she might say I'm addicted. Yep. And so what's our response there? Our response is, uh, well,

27:41the way to, um, to deal with an addiction, like an addiction to scotch is to reduce. Mm hmm. Now that's difficult. We understand that. So, you know, you're going to try and cut down to three hours watching and you're going to slip, but that's okay. Just go back to three hours. Yeah. And again, that might be too, too much information at that time, but it's hard to say.

28:12I mean, but I think the one thing you want to deal with is kind of thing we dealt with, with, uh, with Ralph, because Jane said, maybe I should take their advice and just kill myself. I said, and I assume that Jane is more rational than Ralph, the Ralph character was. So the, the friend says, you know, is that really the best solution? No, you know, it isn't. I've, I've got a lot to live

28:42for. I, you know, Jane can, uh, catalog what those things, you know, might be. So, but we say, you know, can you reduce? And she's talking about, no, maybe not. And, you know, how unhealthy is it? So you get her to acknowledge that it's a toxic environment and that you wouldn't put other people into it. And then, you know, well, if you wouldn't put other people into

29:16it, why are you putting yourself into it? Well, cause there's nothing else for me to do when I sit at home. Yeah. So then we can begin to talk about something else to do and sitting at home, right? Right. Yeah. Okay. Well, so the thing is you have to, and you know,

Reflective listening as a friend

29:36we, we know that all the people that are out there, uh, very few of them are, are trained therapists, but everybody can be an empathic, sympathetic friend. Yeah. A reflective listener. Yep. And try and hear what the person is saying and try and gently nudge them into better decisions. Mm-hmm. Even if that is, you know, on the first time, just giving them hope. Yeah. You know,

30:10I'm here to, I'm here to listen and I, I'm not criticizing your, you know, what you look like. And by the, by the way, I also would not say, oh, you look really good. You look really nice today. Cause the person hears, yeah, today I look nice. What about the last 30 years? Yeah. Or what about yesterday? Yeah. So you got to recall, remember that your friend is probably catastrophizing, probably seeing the worst case scenario. So if you can help them get a glimmer of light at the end of

30:43the tunnel, that's not an oncoming train, you know, that's going to be a good job, good, well, job well done for, for today. And that's, that's what a good friend can do. Yeah. Listen, empathize, reflect, encourage. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. I think, well, this was interesting, Ralph. This is, something that we really haven't done before, except last week with, with Sarah, you know, playing out these little scenarios. I hope our viewers and listeners, um, enjoy it.

31:17I hope so. And, you know, I would, I would hope that when a friend comes to you, you think to yourself, venting, quick fix, overwhelmed, or deep crisis. Yeah. I mean, do that triage thing right off the bat. And then that'll help. Help adjust you. You. Yeah. As you try and work with your empathic, uh, listening, reflective listening. Well, woo. Yeah. I'll see you tomorrow at three. Oh, definitely. And in the meantime,

31:59as we say to our listeners every week, keep your stick on the ice because we're all in this together. you. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah