Pixel 11 Has Some Good Ideas, Zuck's AI Fever Dream, Spotify's Worst Idea Yet

Show introduction

0:00Open the pod bay doors, Hal. Welcome to Primary Technology, the show about the tech news that matters. Big news this week, Google had its Pixel event. We're going to get into all the features that they announced, the hardware. Mark Zuckerberg wrote an AI manifesto, which sounded like a fever dream. We'll get into that. Claude is going to watermark its writing, and you'll be able to tell whether text was actually generated with AI. Spotify is trying to kill podcasts. YouTube made it harder to get monetized, and a ton more. This episode is brought to you by Decagon, and you, all the members who support us directly, and one of your hosts, Stephen Robles, joined by my friend, Jason

0:30Aiton. How's it going, Jason? It's good because our espresso maker works again, so I'm caffeinated. It always is a good day when you're caffeinated. I'm pre-caffeinated. I cold brew it up before every show. That's how I'm able to come out the gate. That does not look like a cup of coffee, Stephen. Here's the thing. It looks like you're drinking a smoothie there. This is going to be... I'm just anticipating the YouTube. Real cold brew. Listen, listen. We have the Fancy Ninja Espresso Maker. I love doing that, but in the morning, I drink cold brew because there's very high...

1:03Concentrated. I drink concentrated, non-diluted chameleon cold brew. You're supposed to cut it with water. I don't cut it with anything. I cut it with my mouth, all right? And I drink the chameleon cold brew. I put some half an half in there, and I know there's going to be some comments about this. I'm just bracing myself for the YouTube comments. I put protein powder in the cold brew, and I blend it up, and that is my breakfast. And it is the breakfast of champions, Jason, because I turned cold brew into podcasts. That's literally what I do, okay? And videos,

1:35but you know. I'm just... Whenever I say I put protein powder in cold brew, people get upset, but listen, it works. Yes. I mean, I didn't even know you went that far, so literally you are drinking a smoothie. I mean, kind of, kind of. You probably know the quote from today. Yes. I did. Just to be clear, I knew where the movie was from, but I looked it up because I feel like the rest of the conversation is very good. But yeah, it's from Space Odyssey, Stanley Kubrick, 2001. That's exactly right. I saw that movie probably in my early 20s, and it felt like a trip.

2:08Like, I don't even know what happened. I remember there's an obelisk. I know that the computer traps like just crazy stuff going on there. I need to watch it again, I think. Probably apropos in today's world. And I need to watch iRobot again. And Jurassic Park. Jurassic Park. Okay, we had some great comments, by the way. Everyone watching on YouTube, thanks for that. People said Bending Spoons is the velociraptor of tech companies, which is an excellent comment. Actually correct. Hope you guys enjoyed that. And we have a bunch of five-star review shout outs to give. We're so close to 500 reviews. Thank you for your help. Douglas Sanchez from Brazil. We have several

2:40international listeners and viewers. We actually have a picture of our night in another continent. We'll get to that. But he said Jason's humor is hilarious, and they make a fantastic team. Look at that, Jason. You got a lot of love in this week's reviews. Yeah, they didn't. They even used my name. They didn't say the other guy. They didn't say the other guy. We have to bring the joke back because maybe newer listeners don't know. This is how I know I've made it. I have a name. That's it. You have a name. So far and so bad from the USA. Looks forward to each new episode. Jeff Wu 99 from the USA says, these guys, great. Best tech podcast I listen to. Carpik from India.

3:11Yes, I finally tried Raycast, and he gave us five stars for that. I have an entire video on Raycast. Are you a spotlight guy? Do you have a special launcher? I use Alfred. All right. Well, tune into the next Mac Power users, okay, Jason? Because me and David- I'm not switching. We go head to head. I got some thoughts. It's just not important enough to me to think about switching. I do have Spotlight assigned to a different hotkey so I can still pull it up because the new version of Spotlight's better. I just- I mean, better than before. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's what I'm saying. It's better than before. Well, it's like Spotlight

3:43was incredible. Then it was useless, and now it's like fine. Well, and here's my thing. Spotlight was meh, and then in Mac OS 26, it's really good. Clipboard history, file search, quick keys, all very good. But the Mac OS 27 Spotlight, I feel like it gets slower because you got Siri AI in there at the same time, and they're always like, whenever you type something into the new Spotlight, Mac OS 27, or on your iPhone, it's always like fighting. Like, is this an AI thing? Is he just trying to open an app? What are we doing here? And so I talk about that. Yeah, I use the Alfred,

4:17and I'm probably not ever going to switch unless they stop making it and whatever, because I use it 39,000 times a day, and I just cannot afford the mental overhead of switching to something else. We're going to talk about Alfred and launchers in the bonus episode today. It's been decided. It's now been decided. I love when I can talk you into a bonus episode. Perfect. I know one always comes up. Chris from Washington said, I'm in the camp of assigning apps to particular spaces and hopping between them, whether I'm on a work machine or personal machine. Yeah, I kind of do that too. I'm doing it

4:49right now. We talked about spaces on Mac OS last week. Right now, I have my primary tech podcast space, where I have Notion, Riverside, Safari tab group with all the links I'm going to be sharing today, and a PDF of the sponsor read. That's my space. And then on the other space, I got work stuff. I got Final Cut over here. So yeah, you're still not a space guy, right? You haven't tried. You have Final Cut right now? Not open right now, but usually it's open. No, no. I quit. I quit all that. I'm not a monster. That's a whole point of the dots. Yeah, I know. I'm not a monster. Essay Digital from the USA gave us six out of five stars. Thank

5:21you for that. And Podcast 728 had a question. Do we listen to anything in the shower? And what books are we reading? A little bit different. I will say rarely do I listen to something in the shower, but when I do, it's a podcast. And what books are we reading? I actually just started reading, what is the book? I think it's like a Seneca stoicism book. I forget what it's called on Jason's face. It just gave me a crazy look. There's that. And there was, I forgot the books I'm reading. I'll have to bring them for next time. Are you reading anything, Jason?

5:52Well, I mean, I do read, I do read books. I don't read them in the shower. No, no. Two different questions. Just to be clear. Yeah. Are you reading the Daily Stoic? No, no, no, no. Are you reading Letters from a Stoic? No, I already read Stoic and the Key. Meditations by Marcus Aurelius. I've read some of that. Why do I know this many Stoicism books? I don't know. It's a book. It's the Seneca, like, life is short, but long if you know how to use it or whatever. Like, whatever that book is.

6:25It sounds a lot like Zuck's Manifesto. We'll get to that later. I listen to podcasts sometimes in the shower. That's about it. I don't listen to music in the shower. I just sometimes will listen to a podcast. It's kind of weird because I have a lot of podcast listening time. I don't really have to do that in the shower. Also, I can only do it in the shower if there's, like, no one else around because then they just think I'm talking to some dudes. Right. And that would be weird, yeah. On the Shortness of Life is the book from Seneca. So, just, I actually want to get the name there. And the last book I've read is, I just, it's taken me a while because I have read it in spurts.

6:57I just finished Apple in China, so. Oh, there you go. Yeah, I'm in the middle of that one still. And my wife and I just finished The Body Keeps the Score, which is a heavy book, but is very good. All right. I wanted to thank, the pins have made it to more places. Andre in South Africa sent me this incredible photo. It is the medieval knight riding the polar bear with Table Mountain in the background in Cape Town, South Africa. Amazing. The knight is traversing the globe. Super fun. And Steve sent me an email. He and his spouse

7:32went to the Tour de France and took the medieval knight on the polar bear, has a picture of it outside a French Apple store, and sent me a bunch of other pictures. And so, very, very kind, very fun. We're all over the world, Jason. The knight. I love it. Yeah, it's very cool. On one funny post, I wanted to say, you know, we sometimes try to say, hey, dingus, to not activate everyone's voice assistance, and then we forget, and we say it a thousand times in an episode anyway. But Chipionics found a car that has a license plate, a vanity license plate that says dingus.

8:03How bad do you want to just drive up, roll it on your window, and be like, hey, dingus? Hey, dingus. That was perfect. So, yeah, that exists in the real world. All right. There's a ton of pixel news. Google's hardware, software. Is Alex Cooper really going to switch from an iPhone to an Android. I want to talk about that. Because the Made by Google event was quite a thing. So, but, real quick, just want to plug before we get into that, Apple Immersive is going to get more content, MLB games, since we're basically a sports ball podcast. Major League Baseball, Friday Night Baseball, is going to have several games in

8:35Apple Immersive. And while I don't, you know, I'm not a big sports guy, I am from New York, and I am a Yankees fan, just because that's required if you live in New York. Unless you're a Mets fan, but nobody's perfect. Just kidding. I probably just made a bunch of people mad. I'm so sorry. I don't know. Yeah, that's not the other guy. I just want to be clear. I don't know. That's not the other guy. But, yeah, you'll be able to watch the Yankees-Red Sox game in Apple Vision Pro Live, as well as other games. I'm curious how this will go. Ben Thompson was already upset without this even happening yet, because if you had watched the NBA games in Apple

9:09Vision Pro, they switched the camera angle throughout the game. And his argument is that could be jarring. Just stick me in one place as though I am actually experiencing it, which I totally get. I watched an NBA game in Apple Vision Pro as well. And I'm curious how they do it. Are they going to be switching you all over the park? Are you going to be able to choose a seat? Probably not. But, yeah. I don't know. I'm going to watch it. I'm going to put on Vision Pro to watch it. I want to just say, and I mean, he's probably right as often as he's not, but Ben Thompson is 100% right on this. Apple has no idea what they're doing with this. It's such a stupid idea. They're

9:43going to have bespoke commentators. Yeah. Just listen. Go subscribe to Dethering and just listen to it. I don't have to get into the whole thing. But the point is, you have the most incredible way to feel like you're actually at the game, but they're treating it like it's a 2D broadcast. And they're going to just move you all over, where you should just get to be able to pick a spot. It should be like theater. Isn't that a list of words where you can choose where you want to be sitting in the theater? Yes. Exactly. You should just be able to choose where you want to be at at the game. And you can just watch the whole game. And if you want to have a replay, you just hit rewind and move to a different seat. Like, this is so simple.

10:17And I would, I long thought, and I actually sent the team, I think this suggestion or whatever, like orchestra concerts, musicals, whatever. If you, if they had a deal with some venue or a number of venues where you could buy a ticket to watch an event live, whether it's, you know, a pop music type concert, if it's actually a stage musical, rock concert, whatever, and you just get the center seat a little ways back and you can experience the concert right there live with the live crowd

10:51around you and hearing everything that's going on. I feel like that would be a particular selling 1.1. People just can't get out to events like that. Artists like I follow, um, Levy because, uh, my oldest son really likes her as an artist. I like her music as well. She's like a jazz artist, but she doesn't come to the U S super often to tour. And she's only been here like once in the last couple of years. And like, that would be an artist for like, man, it would be awesome if I could experience a live concert. My son could experience one in Apple vision pro because you can

11:22do that. It doesn't matter where she was. You just stick one of the immersive cameras and you just need one then. And I feel like you'd be able to multiply your efforts by just putting one immersive camera in a venue where you can buy that seat as if you're there. Because when you're actually at an event, you just have that one perspective. You can't move around. Just do that. So I don't know. Yeah. If only there was like an international monopoly where you can make a deal to put these cameras in every single venue in America. See the joke there is ticket master. Right. Live nation is literally that just, I guarantee you Apple could get a deal done with live nation and just be like,

11:54we're going to do this. We'll cut it. We'll cut you guys in. We'll just like, you know, we'll just give you a cut of every time someone uses this app. It's like, I, this is, they're thinking of it like TV. It's not TV. Right. Exactly. We should, we should be on the team. They should do a brain trust and we'll, we'll come out there. We'll come out and yeah, we'll talk about it. All right. The pixel 11 event was last night. Odd time for a live keynote, but also all the YouTube videos came out earlier in the day, like Mr. Who's the boss, MKBHD,

12:25a bunch of creators, Brian Tong, all posted videos about the pixel 11 and the entire lineup. And then there was the live keynote at 6 PM Eastern on a Wednesday hosted by Trevor Noah, which was interesting. We'll get into that on the face of it. The hardware, I don't think is the biggest story. You know, there's a new Tensor G6 chip. The camera hardware is a little better on the pixel 11, 11 pro. They are more expensive, a hundred dollars more, but the base storage is now two 56 Ramageddon. The 11 pro now starts at 12 gigs of RAM instead of 16.

13:00So there's a bunch of like little hardware updates and improvements. The fold is out there, slightly improved, still thick, but there's a lot of software things that I think are pretty interesting. Google's taking some shots at whisper flow and doing some interesting software things with the camera. There is one hardware thing that Joanna Stern was very excited about, which is the light on the back of the pixel phone. It's a BlackBerry light. There's no BlackBerry light where it's a notification light in the camera bar. There's multiple colored LEDs. So this is not just like a

13:34solid color flash. This is like actually different colors that can meld and do animations kind of, but it can only tell you when one of your favorites are calling and when Gemini is doing stuff on the phone, which if you've asked Gemini to do stuff on the phone, you're probably looking at the screen, just, you know, figure. And for when your favorites called, it's interesting, but I think it'd probably be more beneficial if you could tell it when they text you or customize what apps like will light up

14:09this thing. It's called the highlight LED H I L I G H T. I don't know. You can also make a shortcut that just flashes the flashlight when you get a call. So, well, actually, isn't that an accessibility? I'm sorry. It's an accessibility feature because it's not a shortcuts automation for calls, unfortunately, but it is a accessibility feature. You could just have it flash your flashlight, but right. Because there are a lot of people who that's the only way they would know that their phone is ringing. So that makes a lot of sense. So yeah, it is kind of a weird restriction. It seems like, I mean, I don't want this. I don't want my phone to flash at me when anything's

14:42happening. I turn most notifications off. I just don't just like, I don't even want to know that people are trying to get ahold of me. But if I did, it would be kind of cool just to be able to see that that is, you know, the, the reason I hated BlackBerry is that the light just never went off. Like I always had emails. I always had notifications, but I do think it should, you should be able to decide what it's for. Yeah, exactly. So, and they, Google says they're working on more customizations, but there's a couple of software things that I want to focus on. This first one is called Rambler. And so this was a segment, this is Trevor Noah,

15:13and he was using this feature and it's now going to be built into the pixel phones. It is dictation, but it's like dictation supercharged. And I've actually been using Whisperflow a little more on my Mac, especially as I've been doing the whole can do vibe coding, because when I have a long thing, I want to tell an LLM to do, it's just easier to just talk it rather than type it all, you know, when there's a lot of things. And Whisperflow is really good because you can correct yourself mid dictation. You can say, no, actually I meant this. And it understands all of those little quirks

15:50in your speech and provides a very clean message or transcription when you're ready to send. Now, the annoyance with Whisperflow on iPhone is that you have to switch to a third party keyboard in order for it to have that full functionality of pasting what you just dictated and being able to turn it on. There's a weird action button shortcut workaround, but it's just nowhere near as convenient as on the Mac. And Pixel is saying, we're going to build this just right into our phone. And so this Rambler feature is basically that. It is the Whisperflow style transcription

16:23that is very accurate, but also smart enough to know when you've corrected yourself or you say, actually say this. Trevor Noah did a demo and it's, it did exactly what you would expect, like correcting himself, changing what he's saying. Bottom line, I want this on iPhone and I know we're not going to get it because Apple just improved the dictation and all it did was just get slightly more accurate, but it is nowhere near the Whisperflow self-correction type transcription. And this is a feature I would not switch to a Pixel for this, but man, I so want this or let

16:56Apple, I don't know, figure out a way where it can do a third party dictation service like Whisper rather than have to use the built-in one. So I want this feature. That's yeah. I mean, we are getting to a point where people just are talking. It's weird. Like we're, we talk at our phones, but no one's there listening. Like we used to talk at our phones all the time. That was the whole point of having a phone, but now people are just talking at it. So you don't have to talk at someone. It's like, just take these words, turn them into texts so I can send the text somewhere, whether that's to a human or a robot. That's fine. I don't find like on the iPhone, I just

17:32use dictation and it's generally fine for what I'm doing. Yeah, it's fine. I don't know that it's great, but I do feel like it's mostly fine. I used, and on the Mac, I use the dictation. I think we talked about this when I had a problem with like my wrist and it's like, that's a problem because I'm a writer. So I type all day and I just spent a week having to talk to my computer and it was fine. What was it that made you think I need a third party app to do this? Like you're doing it that much or? Well, David Sparks, I mean, just talked it up so much. And when it comes to how

18:05I've been prompting Claude for things on my app, there'll be times where I like, I have a bunch of bullets in a bare note of changes and bug fixes that people have reported. And they're not formatted enough where I can just copy and paste that list into Claude and say go because it's lacking some clarity and context. And so what I will do is I'll look at that bulleted list and think to myself, I could type this all out and be more specific, or I could just hold a key on my keyboard, talk through these bullet points in a messy way that's not super precise. And Whisperflow not only

18:40dictates, but cleans it up for me in a way that I can just hit return and send it to Claude. And so that use case has been nice. And we're going to get to Claude actually watermarking text that it generates. And what I feel a little weird about that in because of how I use it. And so I might start doing it even more because I want it to be my words and not Claude's. So for those reasons. Yeah. Do you think that this is a feature that's going to convince people to buy Pixels? No, not at all. No one's going to buy Pixels. I mean, listen, Google stacks this event

19:14with celebrities. I mean, Stephen Curry's in this, Trevor Noah's hosting it, Alex Cooper from Caller Daddy. I'm about to talk about her segment. And like, it's hilarious how much juice Google tries to like put into this Pixel event, but everyone just still buys a Samsung Galaxy S26. So it's like, I don't know. I mean, they're great. It's great hardware and they're really interesting features. I'm going to talk about all the camera stuff in the creator suite in a minute. But yeah, no one's going to buy a Pixel because of this, unfortunately. Yeah. I don't know. I mean, it's in some ways the same thing. Like Microsoft makes Surface

19:46stuff and they're good laptops. Google makes very good phones. It's just not a lot of people buy them, but they're sort of just putting these things out there because what's really important to them is that Android exists. Right. And it's Google's like, hey, here's what an ideal Android phone with Gemini. And that's the other thing is they increase Gemini intelligence. It works with more apps, a bunch of apps you never heard of, plus ZocDoc and OpenTable. You know, so they build those features in first so they can show you what's possible. But again, I don't think people are going to switch to use it.

20:17But speaking of switching, there was this entire segment of the Made by Google event where Alex Cooper goes on stage and she talks to somebody from Google and they talk about how easy it is to switch to an Android phone from an iPhone and how Google worked with Apple earlier, like throughout this year. So when you transfer your stuff, not only it brings your pictures, it also brings your passwords over from Apple passwords. And that switching is super easy. Alex Cooper even asked

20:49the guy like, so are my group texts going to be good? And he was like, your group texts are going to be great. And it's like, well, yes, RCS has gotten way better. Group texts are better. Still not the same as iMessage, but fine. And I just wanted to mention this segment. One, Alex Cooper has a very popular podcast, Call Her Daddy. And so let's check after the iPhone 18 launch, couple weeks after that, what phone is Alex Cooper using? That's all I'm saying. I'm saying this is all fine. Great. Switching is now easy. Let's see what happens when the rubber meets the road.

21:22One of my favorite parts of old Twitter was when someone would make a deal with Samsung or whoever and talk about how great the new phone, Android phone is. And then like Oprah, and then someone looks at a tweet that they post and it says sent from iPhone. And everybody would just call that out, which you don't have that anymore. The like the Twitter posted from this thing. But when you have a big video podcast like Alex Cooper, I'm sure she's going to hold her phone at some point. Let's just all see. I'm just curious. Let's see. Is it going to be a pixel

21:54or is it going to be the iPhone 18 when that comes out later September? So we'll see. That's all. To be clear, I think it was actually Samsung's account that posted something that said sent from iPhone. Okay. Very good. But I also think that it was like, at one point, I'm pretty sure Alicia Keys was like the creative director for Samsung. And then people spotted her using an iPhone or something like that. So it was that. And I do think Oprah was one because she like talked about it and something. And then she tweeted or whatever was from her iPhone. There was a bunch of cases. Like if you just Google celebrities that yeah. Anyway, to be fair, the switching thing is actually really

22:27cool that Apple and Google work together. Yeah, this was, but it's also very self-serving. It's like we're not a, we're a doopoly. We're not monopolies. Just be clear. We are not monopolies. See, you can easily go back and forth between the two. You can't go to anything else because nothing else exists because we have the entire market, but we're not a monopoly, but it is nice. I've used it. I obviously some people like us and by people like us, I just mean weirdos who change phones all the time. I don't, there's nothing special about us. It's just often I'm carrying multiple

22:58devices and often that's a couple of times a year going back and forth between an Android phone. And it's very nice that I can just take my main iPhone, put a selection of things on a Google, on an Android device and use it with all of my information on it. That's super helpful. I don't know how many people use this because they're like, I've finally done it. I've given up the iPhone. I'm going to Android or the other way around. Yeah, I don't, I mean, you would use it once and then probably not switch platforms again for a long time,

23:29but yeah, I don't know. It's as good that it's there. I'm sure after like Apple did all this work or whatever, Google also slides the invoice across the table for Gemini powering Apple intelligence. It's like, oh yeah, by the way, don't forget to pay your bill. But you know, it's a, it's a frenemy ship, frenemy ship, friendship. They're even better of best of frenemies. Well, that's open AI on Apple, but yeah. Well, I think they're just straight enemies now, Jason. I don't, I don't know if there's any friend of me. They need each other, Steven. That integration is going away. I'm sure the open AI one, but so that's that

24:02a couple of things on the cameras. So the cameras have improved hardware in the pixel

Pixel camera enhancements and creator tools

24:06devices, but some really cool software features and they're really gearing towards creators with a couple of them. One is called magic capture. And this is a feature where in the demo, it shows that you can just hold the pixel phone and it's basically, it looks like it's capturing a video and has a couple of basketball players doing it. And the pixel is just going to choose moments that are, that would make great photos and capture those photos. And this is not the same as pulling still frames from a video. And in the demo, they zoom into the

24:41photos to show like, this is a high quality photo. This is not just a screen grab from a video. And you don't even, the person demoing, it wasn't even looking at the phone. Like he was just kind of holding it at chest height, kind of like how your parents or grandparents hold something when they're trying to like capture something in the school, whatever. They're just kind of like holding the phone randomly and pointing it in random directions. But the magic capture will then just pull great photos from moments it decides is really good. And you can decide which ones to keep. That's a cool feature built in. Again, it's software,

25:12not necessarily, I don't know if you need the latest hardware to do it, but that's a cool feature. And then the creator focused features. These are things that, you know, I would love to see on an iPhone too. Things like you can have a teleprompter right there while you're recording in the camera. It has social media safe lines. So you can see how, like frame it up for a vertical video and horizontal. You can see like what is going, when you crop it to that vertical 9x16, what it's going to look like. These are nice little features that are just added in.

25:44You know, I feel like many times Apple has started down this path, like with the Clips app, and was like, we're going to make an app where you can edit short form video, but it's going to be square. And then we're going to forget about this app forever. And it's like, if they had, if Apple had just pushed on that for a couple years and innovated, like that could have been a useful creator tool. And Apple is doing some of that, like into Final Cut, they added the ability to do captions and overlay it, but there's not a lot of style. So just credit to Google actually

26:15building features that I think would help creators if any of them use pixel phones, but I don't know if they do. Two things. One, I think like, I always feel very weird, especially when Google releases camera features, because I'm like, I don't want to get into the, like, what's a photo thing, but it's like, we'll touch on that. Okay. But I also think the reality is they just know how most normal people, how many terrible photos they take. I don't know. Have you ever, I'm sure you've had this experience, but like people will send you photos and you're like, how, how is it possible you took

26:50such a terrible photo of this moment? Like, were you running away? Do you not know how to point your phone correctly? Like, it's like, do you not understand things like maybe, I mean, I understand that the teenagers like taking one, you know, 0.5 pictures of their foreheads. And so they do that on purpose, but like, I don't think that our parents are trying to do that. Right. And actually I'm not picking on my parents because my mom was a photographer and does a great job. The point is like, people will look at a photo and be like, Oh, your photo is so much better. I'm like, I just pointed the phone at it and push the button. Like I didn't do it. Like, I don't,

27:21I don't know what the one happened. I see so pinching to zoom, stop all that stuff. Just tap the button. And I think, but Google knows like, no, no, no, no. People are terrible at taking photos. So we're going to do all this work because what they really want is just to have a good end result. And we can argue about all of those details. And that's fine. The other thing I was just going to say is like the creator, like all these tools and stuff, that's great. You I'm sure have this experience, but like right now, if you took a vertical video on your phone and you're like, this would be cool. I want to add captions. I want to do this. There isn't actually like,

27:55Hey, I should have solved this problem by now. I mean, cap cut, whatever, like it's, but it's still like dialing that stuff in is not super easy anywhere. And so I actually think the more that P the Google and Apple could build these features in, in a way that's really accessible because that's what people want to do with this stuff. They're taking these short videos so that they can post them on Instagram or Tik TOK or whatever. So I think that's actually a positive, even though I'm still in the camp of like, people should just be able to take better photos.

28:26The cameras should stop trying to do so much. Well, sure. I think, you know, the pinching and zooming is one thing. I'm also usually I cringe when someone like moves the phone so quickly after hitting the shutter button. Like so often I see someone like hit the shutter button and the camera's down. And like, for me, I always like give it a second just to make sure it's like captured and still, you know what I mean? I don't know if you, you see that kind of stuff. Yeah. Also, honestly, you should just turn off all the camera control features and you should

28:56use it as a shutter button. It's the best way to use your camera. A hundred percent. Just hold it there and just hit the camera control button constantly. And that's the people don't do that though. They're tapping the thing and I still tap the shutter button. No, no, no. Don't do that. Don't tap the shutter button. See, I like to do it because pressing the camera control button, I feel like moves the phone a little too much. Even if I try really hard to hold it still, whereas tapping the shutter button, I could do so lightly. It doesn't move the phone. We had this entire conversation. I know we had this entire conversation. I'm just reiterating my habit and we will have to get into it, but we will say one other thing about

29:30the camera stuff. Pixel is adding these pixel camera looks is the feature. And in the Google pixels are giving you more control. It's not just filters on top of the photo. This gives like photo, like photo styles on iPhone, where when you decide the look or how you want the photo composed, it's actually affecting the entire photo process on the camera, like from the sensor, the processing of HDR, all of that. So it's not just a filter on top of a photo.

30:05It will affect how the photo is taken. And they are giving users more granular control over these looks. And for instance, if you look at this example, and it's in the Verge article, I'll link in the show notes as well. You can choose like, you know what, don't crush the highlights so much. I want kind of the more natural look where this is what it looked like when I was there in real life. Or you just don't want the HDR crank so much. And if you want a, the shadows to actually be shadowy, or if you want the grain, because it's low light, it's giving users the option to have

30:38less processing, or at least process it differently. So it doesn't look so much like a smartphone photo. And like I've seen a lot on social media and TikTok, people using like old cameras, because it has cool looks. But basically, the cool look is just minus all the computational photography, the cool look is this is an old camera that all it did was capture what was in front of it. And there were no settings and no processing. And especially younger generations like, hey, this is cool. Like, I actually want pictures that look like this. And so the pixel is actually doing

31:10that and giving users more control. Again, photogenic styles gives you some control on the iPhone. But the pixel is going even further giving more granular control and being able to make it look like not as processed of a photo, which I think is good. I mean, yeah, I agree. I agree. Yeah. And I do think that the headline of that story is great. Google's making pixel cameras better by making them worse. Exactly. Exactly. Good job, David. Exactly. All right. A couple of last quick things. Oh, I just closed a tab. Oh, no. Show's over. The show is over. I inadvertently closed

31:42a tab. No, the pixel tag. So Google did announce a, and yeah, announce because it doesn't come out till November, an AirTag style tracking tag. It's called the pixel tag. It's going to be 29 bucks for one. It's going to be $99 for four. It is oblong. It's not like a perfect circle like an AirTag. It is a kind of an oval shape. It is still a coin battery, year of battery life. Google says it will be able to ping the entire Android network. So it seems like maybe any Android phone doesn't have

32:14to be a pixel will be a part of the network, the find hub network for Google. So yeah, if you are in the pixel universe, you can have an AirTag like thing. There you go. I do think this is a perfect example of how good Apple is at designing the form of a product around its limiting factor, which is the little CR, whatever, 2032 battery. Because this looks like, this actually looks a lot like the, one of the versions of the Google TV Chromecast remote. It's like, this is, this is

32:50weird in the sense that like the AirTag is the perfect form factor for this. And people are like, well, you can make it smaller if you made it rechargeable. No, no, no. It's perfect that you can just twist it, take out a battery every year, put it in. I don't have to recharge it. I don't have to, you, the battery won't degrade over time. It'll just die. And I put a new one in. But I just think not throwing any shade at this thing, other than I have no use for it. I just think it should, we should appreciate for all of our criticisms of Apple, the AirTag is actually such a perfect example of like, no, the limiting factor of this is the size and shape of the battery. And they built the perfect device around that. Yeah. And I'm curious, like the range

33:23of something like this pixel one, I'm sure Lexi Savides, who was on the show a few weeks ago, she actually did a whole find my comparison with the current products. And so I hope she does a, an updated video with this specifically, it doesn't come out till November, but I will be curious the range because AirTag 2 range is insane. I remember I did a short video and it got over 200 feet, I think. And I still had the precision find my arrow on screen, which was pretty wild. So yeah, that's pretty cool. All right. Well, that was the pixel event. There was also the pixel watch five

33:55that has breathing emergency detection and also insulin resistance trends, not so much like individual measurements, but that's there and blood pressure trends. So you got pixel watch five, which I think it looks nice. I mean, it's a nice circle face. That's cool. Also tap to share is going to be updated. So you'll be able to just tap two Android phones together as long as they're a galaxy eight, the Z fold eight, the fold eight and a pixel six series and newer, which actually going back pretty far. Shout out bump. You remember the bump app, Jason? I do. That was on iPhone too.

34:28Like the bump app existed on both platforms. And it was a big deal before you could just have those contact posters that you could share by putting the phone next to each other. But in this, I mean, bump was like, what was it? Like 2010, 11, maybe I can just remember going to conferences and here you go. I want to bump, which is a weird thing to say to someone, but maybe the name, it was a better name. It might've been better. But anyway, all right. Zuck had this huge AI manifesto. I want to get into. Claude is going to watermark text that it generates. I have some interesting feelings about that. And yeah, Spotify is maybe trying to kill podcasting or get into it. But

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37:08You get a sneak peek into something I'm working on. That is true. We talk about Jason's next app, which is pretty exciting. So, you know, it's right there. All right, Jason, I read Mark Zuckerberg's entire AI manifesto. It is very long. It's like over 6,500 words. I have just a quick question for you. It's okay if you did. Did you read any of this? I read the whole thing. Okay. You read the whole thing. I even made notes, Steven, in context. I made notes too. I made notes. One, the title is

37:42The Future is for Everyone. Subhead, The Path to a Positive AI Future. I don't like that there's the in the title and the in the subtitle. I think you should drop one of the thes. You know what I mean? Sure. That's a joke. That's a social network joke. Just throwing that out there. Do you think, you're a writer, Jason? I think our listeners know that. Is Zuck a good writer?

38:08I don't know that it would be fair to say that Zuck wrote this. I mean, I don't, this is like, how many words was this thing? A lot. 6,500? About 6,500? The guy running the largest advertising platform in the world doesn't have time to write 6,500 words, does he? Well, that's a good question. So high level, this is like Zuck trying to, I guess, make a call. Like, who do you, who is this for? It seems like maybe this is a call to the governments and also other

38:38AI companies and also trying to tell the people that he is, he thinks AI is for the people and needs to be available to all people, free and open. And the only way we all succeed is everybody gets AI on their own terms. I'm going to talk about the personal agent he talks about several times. Who is this for, do you think? Okay. This is helpful context. Do you want to start by going through it and then we can talk about why this exists? Sure. Let's do that. Let's do that. Because I think that the why it exists is the only part that matters. But if we start talking about

39:10that, we will never get to the other part. Okay. All right. So I'll quickly jam through this. I made a bunch of notes. I'm not going to go through all of it, but he does make a call to Steve Jobs talking about like all the revolutions in technology. And he mentions in a line, the kid in the garage who thought personal computers should be for everyone. And that, I don't know. I was a little bit like, all right, all right. You don't, don't invoke the way. He never said Steve Jobs, but everybody knows what he's talking about. Oh, but he's always wanted to be Steve Jobs. Always want to be Steve Jobs. So a couple of pull quotes from this manifesto. First of all, he's trying to make super intelligence

39:41the term. And I think he and Meta are the only ones using that term, super intelligence. He has the super intelligence labs, but fine. He's really trying to make that a thing. Some of the bold claims that he has about the near future of AI. He says, everyone will have an exceptionally capable personal agent that understands you, your goals, and everything you care about. That's a bold claim. Like, sure, there are agents right now, but he's saying very personal. He also believes that everyone

40:14will have one. He says the economy will become more entrepreneurial because of this. Adults will have a super intelligent learning assistant that knows exactly how to teach you new job skills, new languages, new hobbies, or anything else you're interested in. Side question, if the super intelligence can teach me all of that, why do I need to learn it? Well, hold on. Let's pause. Okay, sure, please. Go back to the first thing you said. Everyone's going to have a capable. This is written by someone who probably has 15

40:47personal assistant type people. Oh, sure. And also, I'm pretty sure that none of them know everything about him. Sure. And I'm pretty sure he doesn't want that. And I definitely don't want all of my personal, everything deep, personal, everything about me living on a server somewhere so that an AI agent can get to it. Yeah. Because what happens when the other agent breaks into it? Because it's not like that ever happened before. Right? Like, this is, I don't think this is a future people actually want. I don't think it's a future people actually want. And he also, I think he talks out of both sides of

41:21his mouth. Because throughout this entire manifesto, he is trying to make the plea that AI needs to not be centralized to a few specific powerful companies slash people slash governments. It needs to be democratized. But then in a different breath, he says, quote, we, Meta, will offer free versions that will be accessible to billions of people. So it's like, we want, we don't want to centralize anything of power, but also we will be the one that gives everyone this power. And it's like, I feel like

41:54that's a little contradictory. Fine. He also has this wild example of trying to prove this point that if one person had a AI super intelligent lawyer in the courtroom, but the other person didn't, that would be an unfair advantage. So the future we need is that everyone has a super intelligence lawyer on their side. And then these super intelligence lawyers will argue, I guess, and do the case. And it's like, recently on movies on the side, we reviewed the movie

42:29mercy, which is exactly this situation. And it doesn't go well, just throwing that out there, but just seems like a weird, I don't know. It's a weird example, but these are the kind of examples that he pulls to try and prove his point. Yeah. I feel like there's, this is, I think that didn't they talk about this on, um, the verge cast recently because Zuckerberg wrote about like what a, I think it's Neelai who talks about software brain. Yeah. There's so much software brain in this. There's a lot of software brain. There's so much. No software brain. Also like you can have

43:01the most super intelligent lawyer in the entire world. Fine. Could be an AI agent. Fine. But you know who decides the cases? Just randos off the street. 12 of them sitting in a box, listening to those super intelligent AIs for days or a judge who has very little patience already for AI written briefs that just make crap. Like, yeah, this is like, I'm sure this sounded good to him when he wrote it, but his person, you just have to understand like the perspective of the guy who owns an island in Hawaii is not the perspective of what most of us are experiencing. That's a good data

43:35point to keep in mind. This dude owns an island in Hawaii. I just, and he, and he just keeps up buying a property and pushing people out. Like, cause in his mind, like the world just revolves around. Okay. Can we just cut to why this exists? And then I'll let you keep going. I'm sorry. No, no. Okay. Yeah. Why does this exist? Because you said it, his core thesis here is that it should not be that super intelligent should not be controlled by a few powerful companies. Who are those powerful companies? It is open AI. Yep. Anthropic. That's it. Well, it's those two really, right? Sure. I mean, Google, sure. Fine. Whatever. They've already won search, like all that

44:10stuff. Sure. So what do you say if you are not one of the companies that is currently in the race to control everything? You say no one should control everything, right? It should all be open and everyone should have access to it. He thinks super intelligence should be a commodity. And what do you do when one of your competitors controls a scarce commodity? You argue that the commodity should be free. And the other reason that this is important is that his entire business, well, first of all, I think there is definitely a, I want to be seen as cool. This is what's cool.

44:45So I have to be in this space, but there is actually an argument for why artificial intelligence is important to Facebook. And it is because generative AI is capable of infinity advertising, right? And I've, I've heard people talk about this before. I think maybe it's the Vergecast where they talk about like a YouTube video. Every single pixel is, maybe it's actually Ben Thompson. Every single pixel should be monetizable. You hold up a product, right? People looking at our video feed right now should be able to be like, where did that frame come from? Where did this lamp come

45:15from? Where did this book come from? Like there should be able to, everything single pixel should be monetizable. That is not possible without AI, right? Infinity ad content is what, what Facebook wants infinity. And so, but they cannot, they've been through the experience. It's kind of like people talk about Apple never wanting to be beholden to someone else because like Adobe and Microsoft had them over the barrel, right? Zuckerberg just never wants to be beholden to someone else's platform because that's been the case with Apple for, for decades. And so they cannot have a world

45:48where all of this capability is controlled by someone else. So it has to be open. So when you read this, it sounds super altruistic and super good for the good of humanity. Just understand that the actual reason is it is an existential threat to meta. It's exactly that. And we've mentioned before, but Zuck missed the mobile revolution. Facebook never got to be in the hardware, make a phone there. They missed the search revolution. Google got that. And now it feels like they are missing

46:21the AI revolution. I mean, I have never heard a soul say, I asked the meta AI app about this or that. But it is 90% of the time chat GPT, just normal people, not techie people, just normal people. They're like chat GPT, chat GPT, this and that. And then when you move a little bit into the nerdier space, you'll hear Claude, maybe some Gemini. And like there was other news this week where Gemini reached a billion users. And it's like Google, if you're counting every Google search as a Gemini user,

46:54but they are because that's what it is. So most people are using Gemini. They just don't think about it as using AI yet because they aren't going intentionally to a chat bot. Right. But when any, I would argue that 90% of people, when they think of AI or an AI chat, it's chat GPT. And so I think it's becoming increasingly clear. Meta is losing this battle as well. And it feels like that was probably the impetus for this, where Mark Zuckerberg is trying to wave his arms around and on one hand, try to be not doomsday-ish, but then he also talks

47:25about a lot of other doomsday-ish scenarios that I'll get to in a second. And like you're saying, feigning altruism in the hopes that he could be in the room again. And like on one level, I almost feel a little bad because it feels like he's the guy that keeps getting left out of the cool kids group because he got left out of the phone thing, got left out of this. But also he has built some of the biggest companies, the most profitable companies in the world. I just don't think he's proud of them. Well, he built one and he bought two. Fair point. And I do hear-

48:00And the one he built is dying, just to be clear. Yeah. Facebook, that's 100% true. The one he built is dying. Yes. And the one that he bought that is doing really well is literally just Snapchat, all the good ideas stolen. And TikTok. And TikTok is a real. Just stolen. Right. Exactly. And so, yeah, he's the, exactly. They are dominant purely because of their network effect that they already have. Right. And that's, and Instagram's entire user base was built on Twitter. Let's not forget that at the time. Sure. So, uh, cause it was a filters app.

48:32The feed wasn't the thing in Instagram. You shared your Instagram photos on Twitter and then you could, and when you, you could also can take all of your Twitter users and create your social graph on Instagram at the beginning. So all of these things, like the innovation here, it's not really happening in the cool kid thing. You're right. He, he also changed the name of his company because of his big bet on a thing that no one is using the metaverse. It's not real, which feels like the most, like he keeps trying to make big bed after big bed, hoping one of them

49:06pays off. It's like the, it's like the guy who either, you know, at the crafts table or behind the lottery ticket, he's like this time I'm going to hit it big. And the thing is like, I don't feel bad for him because he's filthy rich. He owns an Island in Hawaii. Like he has successful companies, but I also get he's the things that he built and have bought are not the cool things. And everyone's talking about AI right now. And no one's talking about meta in that conversation. Right. And it's because I mean, Lama is maybe a very capable frontier model.

49:37That's great. And it's not open source. It's open weight. There's a, there's an important difference between difference there. Right. But I think that you're, yes, the, this is not Zuck's manifesto. This is Zuck's complex. Right. And it's like, he just, you're right. He doesn't want to feel left out. He's got the Hamilton complex. He wants to be in the room where it happens. Right. Yes. And there was two quotes right at the beginning that set the stage for this. He says, historically, hoping that an absolute power will benevolently, benevolently, benevolently provide for humanity. If sufficiently enlightened has not led to safer, positive outcomes, right?

50:11Historically hoping that an absolute power will be good for us is not led to safe outcomes. And then he says, as everyone gains more powerful tools, this is your super lawyer thing. Each person will become more capable of shaping the future. Not less. Has he met people? Do you want to give everyone more powerful tools? Because sometimes being more capable of shaping the future is not a great thing. Do you know what happens when people who can afford infinity lawyers start hiring lawyers? It's not a good thing.

50:44Yeah. And he also has an awkward, like caveats where he says, we need to democracy, you know, AI needs to be in the hands of everyone. But that's also going to create questions of like, well, what laws and what systems do we lean on as we build this personal AI revolution? And he talks about mainly a Western democratized version of economy and government. And I was like, so by everyone,

51:14you mean the West, because those are just like, and I don't even know if he understands the weirdness of that, those kinds of caveats that he's saying. So that's why I wonder, like, maybe he did write this because that's, I don't know. I feel like a PR person would be like, you know, you just kind of like, you should just a large, you just, you just slammed like half the globe while you're trying to say you're making this for the globe. So, okay. And then I'll just throw out a couple of details. We don't have to spend too much time on this, but he talks about the good that Meta is doing.

51:48And obviously data centers are a huge pain point right now here in the States. And he talks about that Meta is building a data center in Louisiana and teachers in that area received a $50,000 bonus because of the increased tax revenue from our investment. Gruber quoted that and linked to another article. Apparently that is real. Like teachers did get a $50,000 bonus in that town because of the data center. Great for those teachers. That's a tough gig underpaid, like more power to them. I don't see how that's going to change anybody's opinion on data centers as a whole

52:20and whether they want it in their backyard. Cause they're not giving $50,000 to every resident of this town. They're giving it to the teachers of this town. So that's, I don't know, again, feels like a weird justification kind of like, I don't know, whatever that is. Well, no, what it is, is a, is a, let's like, let's be clear. It's just, you find a sympathetic group of humans and you, and you just, it's a bribe. I'm not saying that the teachers were the people that made the decision about it, but like you find a sympathetic group of people, you give them a huge amount of money and then it makes you look good so that you can do this

52:50other thing. Like this is that outcome. Great. Sure. But let's just be clear about what's happening here. You're just going to throw money at people to get them to do what you, it's called a bribe. Thank you. That is what it's called. And then he even goes on to talk about bioweapons, cybersecurity. He talks about China and how they're bringing online one gigawatt plus of nuclear capacity every other week. The U S needs to catch up in the development that the American government needs to allow AI companies to run and not hold them back. Otherwise we won't be

53:25competitive on the global scale when it comes to AI models. And which not surprising, he's very pro distillation. He said, you know, we need to allow companies to distill from each other. And to, I think a fair point, AI is, was learned from all of human knowledge. Like it was distilled from the raw material of what humans have done for hundreds of years. And so we should be able to distill other models. But again, it's because he wants his models to be good too. So he's like, I would love

53:58to distill from fable and soul 5.6 or whatever. That's right. And then his final promises, we will build a fully private mode where even meta cannot see or grant access to your information. Hard sell on that meta. I don't know if I believe that. And that he says open source is a positive and important force for empowering people. Again, it just feels like he is wanting things that would benefit him and meta in general, like being able to distill other models, claim things are open source, not have centralized power among anthropic and open AI, although he never mentions them in this article.

54:34And so he can be part of this whole thing. And it's just, I don't know. It felt very weird. Well, yeah. And it's the whole point. It's just important to remember this is that what Mark Zuckerberg is afraid of one, there is the, I want to be a part of the cool thing and I cannot beat these companies and I need them to not win. Right. And two, he needs them to not win because it is an existential threat to his business. Right. He even talks about like, he doesn't say

55:05this outright, but it's like, oh yeah, these other guys, their, their goal is to essentially replace workers. But what we want to do is turn everyone into an entrepreneur by giving them these, like, it's like, I mean, I don't think any of either of these things are, are going to be the case because just because what exactly kind of an entrepreneur do you want? Just generating AI slot videos to put into your feed so that more people will watch them so you can sell more ads. Like, let's just be clear about what we're actually talking about. Yeah. Yeah. So anyway, that was his manifesto. You don't have to

55:35read it, everybody. We, we, we tried to sum it up for you. So we didn't do a very good job, but that's because it's a, it's hard to summarize. Yeah. He said a lot of words. It's a lot of words. We'll link it in the show notes, but I, I'm going to skip a couple of things because I do want to get to the anthropic watermarking text that it generates. And I will link to one, an article from The Economist, which I saw Gruber link to. They did this huge study on how to spot AI writing and they tested Chachapiti, Claude, Gemini, and Grok. They had it write versions of articles and they compared

56:09it to actual human writing and they've had some surprising findings. I'll just read one pull quote. It says, our findings are surprising. AI prose is distinguishable by word and punctuation choice as well as sentence and paragraph structure, but its hallmarks are not what you might expect, partly because its writing style has changed with updates. That does not mean that LLMs are great writers. Their prose lacks lucidity and elegance and is often formulaic. So those aspiring to be impressive human storytellers should avoid the following peculiarities in their own prose.

56:44I think I've yet to read this whole study. It is behind The Economist. You have to do like a free trial if you want to read it. The gift link expired already, but I'm very curious, fascinating that they did this study. And I think to no surprise, there is formulas to how AI writes content and text. And so that, in light of, because of pressure from the EU, Anthropic is introducing a text watermarking to all text generated by Claude. And so it's saying that new models will mark AI generated content from day

57:22one. Claude models launched in the EU on or after August 2nd will support machine readable marking at launch. So this sounds like the older models or models that have already existed, they're still working on the marking, but any new models going forward will have this from day one. Old models, it's coming soon. And this watermarking that Claude is going to use will apply to all output, whether you're using the Claude app, Claude code, co-work, or even the API, which made me think,

57:54just curious, like I have a bunch of shortcuts that use the Anthropic API to do things like summarize stuff. I am very curious, like, is that text watermarked coming through my shortcuts? I thought that was very curious. And I, it seems like the answer is yes, according to this Claude support article. They're also going to help users detect Claude marks. And they say existing models are in progress of being watermarked. And the, they specify like detecting a Claude watermark tells

58:25you that the content may have been processed by Claude, but it doesn't confirm whether it was fully generated, whether it just went through Claude. Like for instance, if you write a newsletter and you just ask Claude to proofread it, it will mark it. And someone on the receiving end might have tools from Claude to see that it is watermarked and could assume that you just generated this newsletter. But it's, you have to understand, like, it might just be that someone used it to proofread or,

58:56you know, process some small part of the text. So I find this interesting, like we've talked about on this show, we do need tools, especially when it comes to photo, video, and audio generation that when something is AI generated. And while Spotify is trying to kill podcasts, it's also going to do things to try and label AI music, which I'll get to in a minute. But I find this, that is the first time that I've seen like a text marked, a watermark on text. It's still like, it's hard for me to wrap my mind around like what exactly this is. Is this like markings on the literal pixels of the text

59:31that's generated? Is it hidden metadata? Like, I'm not exactly sure what it is, but it means that whether you just process or proofread with Claude, your content might be marked as AI, not generated, but just watermarked that Claude had something to do with it. What are your thoughts on this? Come in here. Yeah, a couple of things. I congratulations, EU, you get to regulate tech across the world. This is what you wanted. So good job. Nice, nice work. You know, and so in his daily update, Ben Thompson,

1:00:02I, this is like the fourth time we should get a cut of every subscription to Stratechery. So sure. Anyway, he explains sort of how this works. Well, no, he explains his, how he thinks it works. Right. And cause it has to do with tokens and it has to do with like lists of tokens of how like different things work and how instead of being purely probabilistic, the generation becomes

1:00:34somewhat deterministic and that it chooses from a green list more often than it chooses randomly between the two lists. And that somehow that that's detectable by other tools that are like, right? Like it's, it's, it doesn't, it supposedly doesn't change the output, but it actually kind of does because of like what you were just saying, like word structure, sentence structure. So I think it's the reason that this survives things that copy paste, whatever is, it's actually the structure of the output. This is what he says. He says, Claude doesn't explain how watermarking would work beyond that, but the general concept for text watermarking is described in a white paper in

1:01:08brief LLMs don't produce the next token deterministically that the model produces a probability distribution over possible next tokens. And one is selected with some degree of randomness. The watermark uses a keyed hash to classify all of those tokens into a green list and a red list. And the green list gets a slight boost to its probability, probability. I cannot talk today of being picked. What that means is that while an unwatermarked output would choose from the green list and the red list roughly equally, the watermarked output would have a statistically meaningfully

1:01:38higher percentage of tokens from the green list. So there's some like, it's like a code built into the writing literally. But the problem here is like, if you're using it for things like proofing, that is not the same as if you just generated text. Also, I feel like AI generated text is significantly less problematic than AI generated video and photos. It's less, less problematic at scale, maybe. But when it's passed as human writing, I think it's

1:02:14problematic and it's easier to pass it as human writing to most people. But the problem with AI generated text passed as human writing is different than the problem of AI generated videos and photos passed as real because an AI generated photo and an AI generated video is being passed off as though it is a real capture of a real thing that happened. And anytime you read text about a thing, you're one level removed from it, right? AI generated fiction, like stories, fine.

1:02:45The fact that it wasn't generated by a human might mean that it's not an interesting story. It might mean that it's not a good story. It might mean that someone is just using AI to generate their own version of Gulliver's travels, like whatever. Like that's different though, than I post a photograph of Steven breaking into the back of my car and stealing my Walkman. Which I did in fact do. Yes, twice. So like my, my initial concern was the way I use ALMs. Like when I make a YouTube video, I don't use AI until the end of the process. I give it my transcript and I ask it for title and

1:03:18description ideas. I AB title test pretty much every video. I usually have some titles that I brainstormed throughout the process. I'll use one or two of those. I'll ask Claude for some other title ideas. And sometimes I'll just copy and paste one in the AB test. Sometimes I'll copy one and change a word or two. And so does that mean once this watermarking is live in all the models, will YouTube think that my content is AI generated? Because Anthropic admits in this support article

1:03:50that it is not to assume that even if something has the watermark that it's wholly generated, but we can't like tell you that. Like it won't be immediately available that this was either completely AI generated or this was processed by AI. That distinction does not exist in this first iteration. So all that to say, me personally, I'm probably going to not copy and paste stuff anymore. Even just simple things like titles for my YouTube videos. I will

1:04:20probably just literally type the few words I might see in Claude because it feels like, I don't know. I don't know. I'm glad that there's a system for it, but I also, I don't know. I've just been thinking about the Hank Green thing that we talked about last week. I listened to a whole Colin and Samir episode about it. I'm going to link it in top five tech tomorrow, but I don't know. I think people getting a little weird about stuff. That's all. Yeah. I just think I understand the, the reasoning behind it. The thing is,

1:04:54is it, there's a difference of what is useful to know as AI generated. And I, I use AI to, I use like chat GPT and Claude to proof things for me. I use it to fact check things for me. But when I do that, like I've written something over here, I put it in and I say, fact check this. And it gives me back information. I'm not just then publishing that I'm using. That's fine. That's not going to be watermarked. Right. But it's, it's, it's just kind of like, it's weird. I don't know. I don't know how I feel about it, except for, I don't think that the EU should be determining

1:05:25how people use these tools in this, in this way. Well, yeah. And it's not necessarily how you use it, but how the tool marks itself, I guess. So, right. But the, the tool marking itself is not distinguishing between how you're using it. Right. And that's, that's, I think the core, the core crux of it. And I just, I, I think I'm pretty clear. I mean, I talk pretty openly about what I use AI for, like I just said, like giving me title and description ideas. And I don't want, I do feel like people's, you know, the internet is always polarizing. And so, and just seeing what

1:06:03happened to Hank Green, it's like, oh, we're going to put him in this box because he apparently used ChatGPT for something. And I think there was confusion about how much he actually used AI to create his content, but people still jumped on him. And it was like, sheesh. And I understand the consternation. Like I totally get, if you watch, if you read articles that someone was writing for months to years, and then found out that 70% of their writing was AI generated, that would feel like a betrayal. I totally get that. And I just don't, I don't want to do anything

1:06:34that might instigate the feeling of betrayal, even if it's not really, like applicable. So I don't know. I'm just thinking about how I might change my habits using that stuff going forward. And maybe that's a good thing. I don't know. Yeah. But that's caught. Text watermarking. All right. I wanted to, I keep mentioning this Spotify thing. This is a great article from Pod News, James Cridland, a friend, met him at many podcast movement conferences. Spotify is testing a feature in its app. It's called the skip ahead feature available to premium Spotify users that will allow you to skip

1:07:07ads in podcasts and even skip over things like membership plugs. So like what I just did earlier in this episode, talking about how you could support the show and you can get an ad free version and all that. This tool from Spotify would skip even that stuff and allowing Spotify users just to like totally skip over all the things. And Spotify is a large player in the podcast game as far as how many people use it. Like people use YouTube and there is YouTube does have like jump ahead as far

1:07:40as like when an ad starts. Sometimes you'll see the jump ahead button show up on the player and it's basically skipping the ad because it is following the behavior of all the viewers before it and assuming that people jump ahead during this part and you can jump forward and skip the ad. But this feature specifically built in to skip ads, to even skip the membership plugs feels like you must really not care about how podcasters make money because this is bypassing all of that. And now our audience on

1:08:12Spotify is very small. A majority of our audience is on Apple Podcasts and then Overcast and then YouTube. So this is not something that would affect us specifically, but there are some shows where Spotify is the main one, especially like more cross platform shows. Spotify had the deal exclusive deals for a long time. It's a lot of people moved to Spotify. Like once the Joe Rogan show was there and call her daddy was on Spotify exclusively for a long time and a button that just by default just lets you skip all the advertising and also the membership, please. That doesn't feel

1:08:44great and feels a little bit anti-podcast landscape, anti-podcast creator kind of thing. Yeah. And I mean, just to be clear, I know it's like you're listening to guys on a podcast talk complaining about someone trying to make it harder to make money podcasting. I understand that like, yeah, fine. We're not trying to just be navel gazing here. I do think it's like worthwhile just mentioning that what's there is a inherent conflict between what's great for the user who doesn't want to listen to ads and great for the person making the content that they do want to listen to. There

1:09:14is a tension there. And unless every podcast is going to become paid, you only get to listen to it if you pay for it. Ads are going to be a part of that, right? And we like, we have ads on our show. We don't make a ton of money on ads. That's just the only way to monetize this other than our members. Now, if all of you listening want to become members, we'll just stop doing ads. That's great. So we have zero downloads that are not members. There's no reason for us to do that. That's totally fine. I think that I just think that Spotify should not be putting itself in that

1:09:47position to do that. Correct. That it would be. Yeah, it would be like as if YouTube would introduce a feature like this. That would be terrible. Well, because the reason I say that is Spotify benefits from we give Spotify our content for free. They don't pay us to let you listen to this show in their app. We are giving that to them for free and they are monetizing it through subscriptions. And then the people who pay them for that subscription, they are going to give those people the ability to skip the thing that monetizes this show, but they

1:10:20will not be sharing any of that subscription with us. Exactly. Exactly. That. And that's the different like YouTube, which we'll talk about in a second, like YouTube premium allows you to not have the YouTube ads, but creators get paid from that and actually get paid a little more from premium subscribers viewing their content than the ads anyway. And like that is how you do that system. Right. Right. That's how you do it both for the user's experience and for the creator. So that's so that's the thing. But on the complete

1:10:53opposite side, Spotify is also introducing tools that are going to label AI music, which is very necessary. And I talked to my oldest son and he'll use Spotify and he's like, man, I just get these playlists and there's just a ton of AI generated music in there. And like it's very clear it's AI generated. It's just not labeled as such. And so Spotify is going to introduce AI persona labels. So if an entire artist only produces AI generated music, you'll see that AI persona label and also in playlists and on tracks and in search, they're going to label

1:11:26AI generated content. Artists could appeal if somehow it's labeled incorrectly. But for as bad as the podcast ad skipping feature would be, kudos to Spotify for this feature, because I do think this is needed. And like, yeah, let's be clear. AI generated. I know that almost feels antithetical. So I was just talking about the text watermarking and I have mixed feelings about that. But for this, I don't know. I don't know. There's a, there's a, there's a degree here because what we're saying is that if you ran your text through Claude and you asked it to

1:12:00correct all your grammar or your typos or whatever, you created all the content. You're just asking it to do that piece. It's going to get labeled as AI, right? That's different than I just had Suno make a song and I uploaded it to Spotify and I'm going to collect royalties. I don't think those two things are the same. I don't think it's like contradictory to hold both of those beliefs. Thank you. Thank you, Jason. Thank you. As opposed to if AI, if Spotify was marking, like you're an indie artist and you were just using AI to create a drum loop and they mark that as AI, I feel like that's, that's a little bit different because like, no, this is a real person. This is a

1:12:34real artist. They really made this song. They just needed to use like in logic, the whatever thing that would generate a drum loop for you. That's, I feel like that's different. I think it's different too. I think it's different too. You know it when you see it. Uh, or hear it or hear it. Uh, opening eye says they had a really powerful model and it's putting the brakes on it because it has critical cybersecurity capabilities. Just want to point this out because Hey, again, let's just, let's not, let's just not have the velociraptors. Stop breeding the velociraptors. What is the one in

1:13:06like Jurassic Park three? That's like bigger than the T-Rex, the, uh, ultra mega Don. It was there's another one too. And there's a Jurassic world things, Jurassic world, big monster. That's what I'm Googling right now. Distortus Rex. Oh, the Distortus Rex is the one that has like the weird head. Gigantosaurus is the one in Jurassic world. Dominion Indominus Rex. Indominus Rex, the Indominus. Don't make, don't make specifically genetically engineered a hybrid designed to be bigger, smarter, more dangerous than a T-Rex. That's literally what open AI

1:13:40is doing. That is what they're doing. Stop it. Stop it. Don't do it. You, you, you know, the, uh, the Bob Newhart stop it skit. But all I know is I don't need an Indominus Rex in my computer. That's right. Stop it. Just stop it. You know, have you seen that skit though? You know what I'm talking about? Yeah, it's pretty, it's pretty, it's a good one. Stop it or I'll bury you alive in a box. Um, last thing before personal tech, that's from the skit by the way. YouTube is increasing the requirements to become monetized or become part of the YouTube partner program. Previously up until now and until I think it's February

1:14:161st of 2027, it's 1000 subscribers and 4000 watch hours. They're changing that for long form videos on YouTube, same subscriber count, 1000 subscribers, but it's doubling the amount of watch hours to 8,000 in the calendar year to become monetized. And if you want to be monetized specifically on shorts, you need 20 million qualified shorts views in the last 90 days to become monetized as a shorts creator. Now there was a lot of dust up about this because if you have

1:14:51ever tried to build a YouTube channel and get monetized, the 1000 subscribers is a challenge, but attainable. The 4000 watch hours feels like an insurmountable task as a creator because you look at that count day after day and you're like this number barely moves. And I understand it can be very disheartening. And so to double that to 8000 hours, like I understand, I understand that could be very discouraging and maybe even discourage some creators to try. I will also, here's the thing about

1:15:27all of that. Whether you are monetized or not, if you just make those requirements, even the 8000 hours, you're still making almost no money. As an example, I don't think a lot of YouTube channels do this. I am going to show what this channel makes, the primary technology channel, what we make on YouTube in a month. Are you ready? I didn't even know we made anything. Well, yeah. I mean, I basically included it in what I've sent you because it's nothing.

1:15:58I'm not questioning you, Stephen. I know. Just like, okay. But so this is a channel that is monetized. We get, well, I'll just show you. This way, I'm going to share my screen. And for those listening, don't worry, I'm going to. And we probably have higher than average watch hours, I would assume, because people probably watch all 14 hours of the show, as opposed to like people who only watch the first three minutes of a YouTube video. Correct. So this channel has made $72 in the last month. Oh, that's way more than I thought.

1:16:30$72. So, and that is for, in the last month, we've had 2.5 thousand watch hours. So that means we probably make 5,000 watch hours every two months. And it would take us over three months to get monetized on this new 8,000 hour thing. But we're two, whatever, almost three years into this. Correct. So you'd have to be doing it for that long. And then in one of those years, hit that number. Correct. So I understand the discouragement of it might take longer to get monetized from YouTube.

1:17:05But in order for YouTube AdSense revenue to be anything significant, you need way more hours anyway. Yeah. Like, if you want to actually make your YouTube channel a thing, you need one, you just need way more watch hours for it to amount to any number. And so I understand the discouraging side of that. I mean, like, if you're, like, if you're right now, you have like 3,000 watch hours, and now you're like stressing because you want to hit it before February. So you get into the YouTube Partner Program. I totally get that. I was there. I was there, like, trying

1:17:37to get those 4,000 watch hours. But I also made almost no money from YouTube, even after I was monetized, because it just takes time. Part of it is, like, if I look at any one of my videos in the last month, no one video makes a significant amount of money. But I have now 1,000 videos uploaded on my channel, which is a wild number. I didn't realize it was that many. But I have, like, 1,000 videos uploaded. And the collective watch time across all those videos over the course of a month generates some income. Still not a ton. Still not the main source

1:18:12of income. I still make more from pretty much every other revenue stream in my business. But it just takes time and it takes a lot of watch hours. So totally identify because I was there wanting to get monetized. But I also get, like, even if you attain a YouTube Partner Program, you're not going to make significant money anytime soon. Yeah. So that's all. I just want to point that out. But yeah, I think still go for it. You know, I think if people are wondering, like, is it too late to start a YouTube channel? I don't think so. You know, if I started fairly recently, like

1:18:43three or four years ago, I started putting in certain effort. And I still think there's room today. I still see, like, Christian Seelig. Are you familiar with him? Yes. Maker of the Apollo Reddit app, which is now defunct because of Reddit. But Christian Seelig, he last year, he releases like one video a year, okay, on his YouTube channel. And he knocks it out of the park every time. And so I'll put a link to his YouTube channel. But he

1:19:13released a video last year. It's a gaming piece. It's like I built, I made the PC I couldn't buy. Short title. Here's the thumbnail. 8.4 million views. And it got him like over 200,000 subscribers with that one video. And it is an excellent video. It is incredibly well done. He is an engaging narrator and storyteller. Not once is his face on screen. It is a faceless YouTube video. But his visuals are super fun and interesting. And so you can

1:19:43totally go viral on a long form YouTube video and probably make that 8,000 watch hours and 1,000 subscribers in one video. Like it's very possible. He did it like, I mean, it did help that he had an incredibly popular app that people loved. And I'm just, yes, but that does not like none of that matters on YouTube, honestly, because I don't think him being able to post on to his hundreds of thousands of followers on Twitter and threads that I made a video. There's no carryover.

1:20:14His goodbye Apollo video got 38,000 views, which is not bad, but also nothing. Sure. Okay. I mean, five years ago, I still have Apollo on my phone. I just want you to know. I'm sure. But like he posted lots of videos before this, like he has an M1 MacBook air video, 6,000 views. So that's the weird thing about YouTube is like, just because you have tons of followers elsewhere, it doesn't necessarily mean they're going to come over and watch. And this gaming, like this gaming video has nothing

1:20:47to do with Reddit or Apollo or the apps he made. He's just talking about building a PC and he did like great work. He like 3d printed the casing and he like customized pieces. Like it is an incredible video. Totally makes sense. Why? And he did it again. He just released or two years ago, he released a video about, I built the, my dream keyboard from scratch. That video got 2.4 million views. So all I'm saying is even today, a year ago, Christian Seelig did this with one video. And so part of

1:21:18one of the things as if you want to be a creator, you have to reconcile with is like, do I have the chops? Do I have the ideas? And do I have the execution to be able to do this? And if those three things are true, you can still do it today. And even if the watch time requirement is to 8,000 hours versus 4,000, you can still do it today. That's all I'm saying. So be encouraged. That's all. Okay. My, my app, Jason, personal tech is app cornered this week. It just says in our, in our

1:21:49rundown, can nightmare. I did that because I thought it was a fun playing words. It's not been a nightmare. Thank you all for supporting can do my task management app. It hit number one in the Mac app store and iOS app store. I got a lot of positive feedback to a lot of downloads. Really appreciate it. I just wanted to share a couple of things about the development process that I feel like you will identify with. And, uh, yeah. So one, I've received infinite feature requests and bug

1:22:19fix reports, which totally understand. Thank you all. I'm implementing some, there's just so many feature requests. There's no way I would be able to build them all. Maybe if I have codecs and Claude working on it simultaneously, we'll see, but probably not. But I just wanted to talk a little bit about the actual troubleshooting process because there was one night, Jason, it was a dark night of the soul for me. And that was last Friday. I was receiving emails and bug reports that iCloud sync was not working properly. And I would test, sometimes it would work, sometimes it

1:22:56wouldn't. So I knew there were problems. And I will reiterate again, I'm not a developer, so I can't read the code. I don't know what it's doing. And iCloud also feels like a black box of what's happening here. So I was up till 3am Friday, just going back and forth with Claude, Fable, burning tokens all night long, saying, here's what's happening. The sync is not working. I'll send screenshot, I'll send screen recordings to Claude of the various devices. It's running stuff on the Mac. And I will send it

1:23:32to Claude. Sometimes it would work for 20 minutes. It would just go. And I'm like, I see the token count going. And I'm just sitting here. I'm just staring at it because it's two in the morning and I have nothing else to do. And I'm like watching it go. And then it'll come back, Jason. And Claude will be like, I got it. This was the problem. This was an issue with the sync engine. This was the thing with the app writing the boards. Fixed it all. Committed the build to GitHub. You're ready to

1:24:02deploy. I said, great, Claude. That sounds good. So I go in. I go straight to a test flight build. I understand you can deploy the app directly on your iPhone and Mac. I do that as well to test. But with the iCloud sync specifically, I wanted to test it on the test flight install because that uses the production iCloud sync, not the developer iCloud sync paradigm in iCloud developer console. Anyway, so I would wait for it to hit my personal test flight. I would update my Mac, my iPhone,

1:24:35my iPad. I would try it again. And inevitably, it would still be broken. And I would the same process. It was like Sisyphus rolling up the iCloud, the mountain, like just trying to figure this out. And it was it boggled my mind how often Claude just is gaslighting me. And I understand like it is thought it found the problem and fix the problem and is very confident. I finally understood your take on like Claude just being the overconfident, whatever. And it would probably a dozen or more

1:25:05times that night, it'd be the same process. I would tell Claude the issue. It'd be like, oh, I missed this one thing. It's fixed now. No problem. I would do the whole test flight process still broken. And it was maddening. And at one point, Jason, I almost lost it because it was about 2 a.m. And I sent the thing to Claude. It was thinking and it came back and said, we've done a lot of good work today. I think I just fixed the iCloud bug. It's it's almost 2 a.m.

1:25:38Let's call it a night. This is what Claude told me. Like this is what Claude told me. And I I was like, I couldn't whisper flow because it was two in the morning and my office is close to my kids. But just imagine me typing furiously. Don't tell me what to do, Claude. You don't tell me it's late. Okay. Don't tell me what time it is. I know what time it is. Time is a human construct and you are a robot. So you just stop. And I didn't say all that to Claude, but I did say, Claude, don't make any judgment calls about the time I'm working or when don't don't tell me when we're done. I tell

1:26:12you when you're done. Okay. And like, it almost sent me over the edge. I'll be honest. Kept working, thought it was fixed. It's mostly fixed. I'm still been fixing issues this entire week. And I'm at a point now where I'm also installing Codex. I'm going to see me. Let's let's put it to the test. Let's see if Codex can fix this. I did get a very nice email from Phil. He sent me a markdown file with instructions for LLMs on building iCloud sync into the app. I gave that markdown file

1:26:43to Claude. And I said, please compare this to what you've been doing and see if there's any improvements here. And once again, I don't know if Claude's gaslighting me or not, but it's like, oh, this part, I totally didn't know about this part about pushing something when changes are made. I got it now. When I made a bunch of changes again, still not totally fixed, but my thank you to Phil, it did help. It is more reliable, still working on the fix, but man, I almost, I almost lost it on Claude, Jason. There was two, two things that happened for me recently that are similar in building the second

1:27:17app. Actually, I guess it's the third app, but the site, the first there's one that won't, you won't, no one will see it, but it's fine. Um, the, I, I got to a point where I was basically the, the token window was like 900,000 tokens and the, the limit is a million. And I was like, okay, simple problem to solve. I'm just going to start a new chat. Right. I don't. So I said, I said, great. You fixed that problem. Awesome. Awesome. I'm going to start, I'm going to start over in a new chat because the context window is almost full. What info do I need to bring with me? So it'll make a Claude

1:27:48dot markdown file for you. And it puts it in the project so that the next chat can just see all that kind of stuff. And its response was congratulations on shipping exclamation point. I'm like, dude, no, we didn't. And then it goes through this whole list of here are your accomplishments. You did this. I'm like, dude, we've only been working on this for four hours. Like we are nowhere near shipping. I just, I just am telling you like, we're going to keep this conversation going, but I need to start a new chat. And I just need to succinctly

1:28:18tell what it, what it has, because it's like, it has no, no idea. It's just completely crazy. Uh, and then it was the number of times where just like you're saying it will, it will tell you that it's figured something out. Yeah. And he goes, I guarantee it's fixed. And I just take a screenshot of what it thinks. And I send it and I go, this is ugly, bro. And it's like, yeah, fair. It's pretty ugly. See, and that was another time where after I gave it that Markdown file about iCloud sync,

1:28:54it said, yeah, this is definitely helps. We should definitely implement it, but it's pretty late. We can implement this in the next iteration. I think you should ship it as is. That's what it told me. And, and to add insult to injury, it put a little cruise ship emoji in its message. I kid you not. I kid you not. And when I saw that again, that cruise ship emoji, I almost, I almost flipped a table. It was, I was like, no, I'm not going to ship. If there are still more improvements that need to be done. Like, why are you tired of working? Are you, are you

1:29:30saying like, so anyway, that was, that was just maddening. And there was a point where it was having a hard time solving a particular problem. And I'm thinking your fable five, the most capable LLM in the world for doing this, figure it out. And it did, it did. Okay. Well, good. Now you have not, you have not like been tempted to try codex for anything yet. Not on this app. No, I mean, I've used it in Xcode for contextually. This was before fable

1:30:04exists existed. But when there were issues that I felt like it just kept going around in circles and was not getting any new person. And part of that could be because I was sending the whole context window back. So it's just continuing on the same train of thought or thread. So there was times when I would just bump into Xcode, go over to the AI chat thing, load codex there and be like, could you look at this problem? And it'd be like, yeah, it looks like it's probably this, this, and this. I'm like, sweet. And then I would get to a point where that couldn't figure it out anymore. And I'd just switch back to Claude. But this entire app has been Claude. Okay. And mine has been Claude up until now completely. I am going to share, I just want to show you this

1:30:37conversation. I just need to prove it. And I'll put this as the chapter artwork. Look at, look at this. Look at this. Ship it. Ship it. Ship this, Claude. I said, I'm not shipping without these improvements. Make the changes per this document and I will retest. Agreed. Let's do it properly. And I'm like, listen, Merlin Mann was a guest on Mac Power Users recently. He's a very divisive figure. People have strong feelings. We had literally the polar opposite comments like this was the best episode in a while. And people were like, I couldn't listen to five seconds of this episode. Totally understand. But the one thing from that episode that

1:31:10Merlin gets into is all the instructions that he has built into his Claude of like MD file on how to talk. I understand it now. I understand why you would be that particular because sometimes it is absolutely maddening, especially when you're trying to fix a problem. And I understand people are going to say like, this is a vibe coded app. You're not fixing anything. Sure. I guess. But I am part of this testing process. Like I am the one like dealing with data. I'm using the can do app for my own video planning. And so as stuff is breaking,

1:31:45like my own data is breaking. And so like, this is like, we're in it together, whether or not I'm actually writing the code with my fingers or not. Like this is, it is a whatever process. And like, it was the way Claude talks sometimes just makes me insane. Well, in here, two things we, I want to have this conversation at some point about the stigma, uh, the perception of vibe coded apps, whether they're less valuable because of that. But I, I really liked the way Mark Arment was talking about it recently when he was talking about the number of things he was able to get fixed in his app and like how he spun up some new stuff

1:32:17entirely based. And he was thinking of himself as a director of AI. And I actually think that's super useful. That's the first thing. Yeah. Second thing is every single piece of software you're using today is being written in some part at this point by the codex or Claude, every single thing, whether it's coming from the largest, especially when it's coming from the largest companies in the world. Now they didn't like have one guy sit down and be like, make me a Kanban board app, right? That's not, but that's what we think of as vibe coded. But these are the

1:32:48tools that are being used by the smartest developers in the world. And they are just very good directors. Exactly. And that is what, yeah, that's what it is. So I just want to get that off my chest. I thought hopefully that was entertaining and ship it. Listen, Claude, I wanted to ask Jason by Alfred. So we're going to go record a bonus episode. You can get the unedited feed, which I'm sure is over two hours this week and usually is close to two hours. You can listen to that our daily show, get an ad free version, click that link down in the show notes. We'd appreciate a five star rating and review in Apple podcasts. We are extremely close to a 500 ratings there.

1:33:20I'm going to check it real quick. We are at 494. So we only need six more five star rates. So if you haven't done that yet, head over to Apple podcasts, give us a five star rating and review there. Appreciate it. And thanks for tuning in. We'll catch you next time.