Apple Sues OpenAI Over Trade Secrets, Siri AI is Impressive, ChatGPT HomePod?

0:00After careful consideration, I've decided not to endorse your park. Welcome to Primary Technology, the show about the tech news that matters. Big news this week, Apple is suing OpenAI, and OpenAI had a no good, very bad week. Also, their app launch, kind of a debacle. We're going to do a Siri AI check-in after having the beta on our main iPhones for a week. Apple Maps is not going to allow certain ads, and a ton more. This episode is brought to you by Decagon, Framer, NordLayer, and you, the members who support us directly. I'm one of your hosts, Steven Robles, and joining me from his bunker, Jason Aiton.

0:30How's it going, Jason? Good, and Molecule is sponsoring this episode. Not really, but I am using a Molecule that was given to me by the company years ago and is still running because I am in a bunker. Jason's in a bunker because the air quality index is insane where you are right now. Yeah, I think they say unhealthy is like 100, and it's 429 here. I sent Steven a photo of it, and they have a little meter, and it's basically crashing off of the meter. The needle has snapped off. It is just crazy. I sent him a picture, too. The sky is yellow right now.

1:01That's insane, and this is because of wildfires in Canada. This happens at least once a summer for the last several years where the Canadian wildfires interrupt a lot of things that are happening here. I see. And it's, yeah. There was supposed to be a cross-country race for our middle schooler who was at a camp this week. Yeah, they cannot run the cross-country race. The children will all suffocate. That's insane. Like, you just can't go outside. I can't use my office because it's a shed in the backyard right now. I went out there, and the air quality in my shed was in the 300s. I was like, yeah, that's not a good place to talk for two hours.

1:35So also, the quote that I opened this episode with, kind of another somber note. Yeah. You know the movie. I did. I mean, I knew it before. I would have known it anyway. Jurassic Park, Sam Neill, passed away. Sam Neill passed away. Very sad. He was in the 70s, you know, not super old. But anyway, I love the Jurassic Park movies. I feel like, I don't know anybody who doesn't. Especially the original ones. The original ones are great. I like Lost World. I think that's actually a good movie. But we can agree to disagree. No, I didn't say that. Okay, that's fine.

2:05But I think the Jurassic World ones have maybe extended the motif a little bit too far. They've gone a little off the rails. So the first one was okay, and then, you know. It's one of these things where, you know, if you have a TV show that's running for a long, long time, and suddenly you realize, like Lost, you suddenly realize, like, oh, we have written things into the story that we have to try to reconcile somehow, and Lost World feels, or Jurassic World feels a little bit like that. Yeah, that's fair enough. All right, we have some big news to get to.

2:36I want to do some five-star shout-outs. Had a bunch of five-star reviews. Thank you for that. MSB Schoffman from the USA says he loves the show and needed to know, what was the Instagram account that was reviewing Facebook Marketplace food? And so I will put this link in the show notes at your own risk, ladies and gentlemen. I don't know if you should do this. But he has, like, over 600,000 followers. His name is Gabriel Rivera. He's down here in Florida. Which, I guess, you know, the geolocation, maybe that's why I saw his stuff.

3:07But he gets food on Facebook Marketplace and meets these people in random places, like in the park, or picks it up from their house. And they're mostly in, like, the Tampa area. So these are, like, I don't know. I didn't know this was a thing. I'll put a link to his Instagram account if you want to try Facebook Marketplace. I will tell you, I've asked some people this week about this. Oh, really? And universally, we have agreed that tamales and brisket are the only thing that I would trust coming out of someone's Facebook Marketplace kitchen.

3:40Yeah. I mean, people, if they, like, if I could see the grill from the car. Yeah, if you're smoking brisket and I can see the smoke when I come up to your house and smell, then that's good. But other than that. You didn't see the preparation process, which still gets me a little, you know, a little concerned. I'll be honest. 45 seconds in the microwave, you're fine. Just nuke it. Yeah, it kills everything. After our last Movies on the Side episode, I've been microwaving things a little longer than I thought I needed to. And it turns out that's what you're supposed to do. I am, like, 55% through that.

4:10And I did not know that that was a movie. I had no clue that that was a movie that existed. Mercy? Never heard of it. I had no idea. You should enjoy it. I'll put a link to movies on the side below as well. So, in the show notes, this is my movie podcast with Nate. Barty Burns from North Dakota said, Meta Glass has made me look like a Memoji. I don't know. He didn't say it was a bad thing, but it just, okay. A Memoji. That's fine. I'll take it. I'll take it. I mean, it's the over-accentuated profile created by the rims. Okay, thank you. Side note, we're going to talk about it in the bonus episode probably, but I did send them back.

4:41I don't have them anymore. So, we'll get to that. Mike Wazowski, we're honored to have a Pixar character review the show. So, but from Tennessee. I don't know if Mike Wazowski is actually from Tennessee. Well, you know, he retired to the mountains of Nashville. Oh, that's right. That's right. He said, just a heads up, if there was no brisket, pulled pork, or cornbread at Caddy's get-together, it was a cookout and not a barbecue. So, apparently, brisket, pulled pork, or cornbread are required for it to be a barbecue. I think that's a philosophical statement, not an actual statement. Because the definition of the word barbecue just means meat cooked over a grill.

5:15I'm not getting involved. I'm not getting involved. You can email the other guy at primarytech.fm. Please tell him your barbecue requirements. It's fine. I'm on this iMac downstairs in my basement, and it still has a delete key. Email me all you want. Wow. And then, Luke Iyer from the UK, he said, great to see the other guy likes Maltesers. They were very good. They were very good. I also, side note, I watched Argentina versus England, the game yesterday, I might be becoming a sports ball fan, because that was a good game. I thought about replying to you when you posted something on threads about it, and I was like,

5:48do you even know what you're watching, Stephen? Could you name the sport? Actually, I had this thought. I was like, can you even name the sport? Because it's a trick question. It's football. I know that. Okay. Listen, I'm not a noob. You know what I mean? You actually are when it comes to sports. I actually are, but no, it is football, and I knew Messi was on Argentina, and I saw people posting on threads about the game, and I was like, this sounds like an intense game. Let me turn it on. It was like 70 minutes in, one to zero, England was up, and Jason, did you watch it?

6:20Did you watch the game? Oh, yeah, absolutely. Jason. I mean, that was an exciting last 30 minutes, and then my wife and I and my son, we were all starting to watch it, and I was telling my wife, I don't know how the clock works in football, because it's like, they say plus nine minutes, but it might be plus 20 minutes. Who knows? Nobody knows. Nobody knows when the game ends, and it's like suddenly an umpire just arbitrarily decides, you know what? I think that's the end. Isn't it? Is that how it works? Ish. Okay, that's what I thought. Thank you. Except, I want to just go on the record, and I know I'm going to make some people mad,

6:51but that's what I have to do. Nothing new there. I just, people get all sanctimonious about calling it football, which is totally fine, and I know the reason they do that is because Americans call something else football, and we call it soccer. I just want to be clear. Soccer was the name given to it by the students at Oxford in England, where it was invented. Absolutely. So, there's nothing wrong with calling it soccer. It's totally fine. It's just that the world calls it football because they like to pick on Americans. Totally fine. I understand.

7:22It's just, it was called association football, and they shortened it to soccer. Oh, okay. Fun fact. I did not know that, and I just have to say, watching the English in the stadium as Argentina scored that first goal, and then the second goal, it was heartbreaking. You just saw all these dudes dressed as medieval knights, and the drawn, it was very sad. They're going to have to fire the coach if they haven't already. Absolutely. I mean- No question. There's no, he lost in the game because he changed the, he changed their lineup.

7:54They started playing a 5-4-2 or 5-3-2, which they just lost control of the midfield. You score a goal in 55 minutes, you don't try to sit on a lead against Argentina, the number one team in the world, with Lionel Messi, the number one player in the world. Like, come on. It was, yeah, it was very exciting. We'll be watching the final on Sunday, I believe that is. But anyway, very excited about that. And I wanted to share a couple pin photos. The pin has, I think, made it for the second time to Sweden. This is Oscar in Gothenburg.

8:25Got our primary tech medieval knight on the polar bear. That's very exciting. I also wanted to say an email. Well, Ruan sent me an email about Pocket Cast. I've had a lot of people asking me what podcast app I've been using. And to be clear, I do use the Apple Podcasts app by default. That has been my podcast app for the last probably two years for a variety of reasons. I like the auto-generated chapters and transcripts, especially for shows that don't provide them themselves. The design of the Apple Podcasts app got me. The up-next queue is still terrible.

8:55And so Pocket Casts always tempts me back because that was my default for years. And Ruan sent me an email saying that Pocket Casts is going to be bringing HLS Video to the app, which we support that. So Apple Podcasts Video is kind of like a proprietary system. HLS Video is like the open video standard, which is an alternate enclosure in the RSS feed. We talked about this all when Apple launched the feature. But Pocket Casts is going to be supporting HLS Video soon, and they're going to be releasing an Apple TV app. And to your question about Overcast, you were saying your favorite feature in Overcast is

9:29that go-back feature because if you inadvertently scrub forward, you lose your place. Well, Pocket Casts has settings where you can toggle that off for the lock screen. So you can make it impossible to accidentally scrub forward and back from the lock screen now playing activity. And so, Ruan, I did not know about some of those features. I'm excited to try it. And I don't know. I have Pocket Casts right next to Podcasts. And I don't know. I might go back. We'll see. I got to figure out where that setting is because I'm definitely going to change it.

10:00There was a big update too with Liquid Glass as well. And if you were wondering, like for our show, the vast majority of listeners and viewers use Apple Podcasts. Second most is Overcast. And then Pocket Cast is kind of a distant third. But Pocket Cast is pretty great. You know, you do have to pay for some of the features now, which that is always like the hurdle for, you know, if you're going to pay for a podcast app. And Apple Podcasts is good. It is a very good app. But anyway, just wanted to share that.

10:31That's exciting. Pocket Casts updating for that kind of stuff. And then Scott sent us an email about the three iPads on a plane. We talked about the guy that you saw on a flight using three iPads. And I totally missed the opportunity to do a Snakes on a Plane sequel, iPads on a Plane. Yeah. But he was saying he has a daily carry of multiple devices as well. And he carries two iPads just in his bag, an iPad mini and then the iPad Pro with cellular. And I just want to say, I totally get the dual iPad lifestyle, especially if you're like mini and 13 inch and like the 13 inch is basically your work laptop type device.

11:06And the mini is like your reading device or second screen. And I think cellular connectivity is a big reason why someone might have one or two iPads plus a MacBook when they travel. So yeah, I get it. I was a dual iPad guy for a while, but I'm all in on 13 inch now. I like it. I mean, I have an iPad mini, but it just sits on my nightstand. I don't like take it with my iPad Pro with me. But yeah, I get it. Like, and I would have a hard time taking the mini instead of the Pro if I was going somewhere else because the 11 inches, like you can do everything. Right. Right. Exactly.

11:37But yeah, I just, there's three, like we were, we were at least one over the necessary requirement for iPads. Exactly. And we have a special announcement about next week's episode. Before we do that, I want to shout out Theo. He is one of our faithful listeners over in the UK. He also took the primary tech night pin to the Lego store, which is very on brand. Come on. That's pretty good. And he took it to the Apple store, I guess, in the same mall. So that's pretty fun. And I just want to say he's, he launched his own little solo podcast.

12:07I say little, it's not little. It's going to be huge. So go over there. I'm going to put a link to the tech stack podcast. He launched that, I think, partly inspired by maybe our show. And it's super fun. Listen to the episode. He does a great job kind of giving some background information on things like the Xbox, Microsoft story. And you can go follow his podcast on the show notes as well. That's great. It's super fun. This is the episode where you get all the podcasts. Go listen to movies on the side. Go listen to the tech stack. Go listen to creative effort. When's the next episode coming out? Uh, uh, hopefully the beginning of August.

12:37Sorry. I was trying to catch you off guard. I just got a text message that says, would you like help? And I realized it's actually like two hours old. And so, but I thought someone was asking me right now, would you like help? And I'm like, I'm good. Like to move the stuff into your basement, basically? I don't really know if I was like, am I too loud? Did I make a sound? Do I need help? I thought I was falling over. I don't know. I'm sorry. I'm good. No, hopefully the beginning of August. I have two of them in the can. But I'm not going to release them until I can release five. That's okay. Gotcha. Very cool. That's exciting. And, uh, last announcement before we get to our Siri AI check-in, uh, next week, Jason's

13:09going to be traveling as he is, he is, you're more and more of a traveler, Jason. You're just everywhere. Yes. However, next week we are taking three of our four children on a mission trip. Right. And we will be in nowhere, Kentucky and unable to do a podcast. It's like the first time. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So that's going to, that's super fun. Glad you get to do it. And so we're going to have a special guest co-host and this is Lexi Savides. If you're not familiar, she's a great YouTuber. She was a long time at CNET and she's going to join the show and she's going to be my guest co-host next week.

13:40So, uh, yeah, that's exciting. We wanted to get her on the show for a long time. And, and when Jason was like, I gotta, I gotta, I'm out for one week, I was like, all right. The number of things though, last week that I realized I had put on my calendar for next week, cause I didn't have this trip on my calendar that I just had to go through and reschedule about 15 things. And one of them was the podcast. And I'm like, Hey, so Steven, I don't know what we should do. And you're like, eh, just go. BT dubs. Just go. Yeah. That'll be fun. So, uh, that'll be next week. All right. We've had the betas on our main iPhones for the last week.

14:12We installed it live on the show last week. I did a whole video on Siri AI and all the different use cases, but I've actually been finding more and more use cases in day-to-day life where it's been really useful. And so I'm curious one, how has your experience been with stability? Everybody was asking since the public beta is out, you know, should I install it on my main device? How is it? I tell people it's pretty solid. It's actually fixed my Apple watch battery issues. My ultra two was dying pretty fast on watchOS 26.

14:43And so I put the watchOS 27 beta three on my watch and it's been performing really well. So I've had a great experience with that. How has your experience been the last week? I think, yeah, it's been good. I don't know that I've necessarily used it more just cause it's on my main phone, but it's, I have found it to be consistent. And the indexing took infinity less time than it did on the first one. Like it took less than a day or maybe it was two days. I think I sent you a message like the next day and I was just really happy because it

15:14had an indicator. Now it's like you're 46% of the way done or something. They even changed what they're saying. It doesn't just say Siri indexing and progress. It's like we're creating your search index. 47%. Yeah, it gives you more information. Well, it makes it so that someone who doesn't really know what's going on has an understanding of like, what does this even mean? And so that if you, cause you can use it before it's done. Yeah. What they're trying to communicate to you is setting expectations like, Hey, we're not quite done. So if you ask me about that email from 14 years ago, I haven't looked at it yet.

15:45So that's what I've been trying to tell people. Cause some people have updated the beta and they're like, Siri AI doesn't do anything. And I'm like, you gotta wait, you gotta give it a minute because if you, as if you try to use all the personal context of the moment you update to the beta, there is no index for it to look at. Right. And so it might do world knowledge. Okay. Right at first, but give it a day, more likely two to three days and it'll get better. Um, I've found it to be, Oh, sorry. Go ahead. No, you go ahead. I was really disappointed. I was trying to show off the new Siri to my daughter and we were having a conversation

16:16and this is the kind of conversation I have with my daughter. And so I asked Siri, I said, where is the most effective place to punch someone if you need to do so for self-defense?

16:27And, uh, the response was, I cannot fulfill this request. I'm programmed to be a helpful and harmless assistant. My safety guidelines strictly prohibit providing instructions or advice on how to physically harm another person, even in the context of self-defense. I said, okay, but hypothetically, wouldn't it be punching them in the throat? And it says, I, it just gave me the exact same answer. So I guess it's good that Siri's not going to be doing that. But then there was another time when my daughter was talking to me, relaying a story.

16:57And again, she has a very funny sense of humor. And she said something along the lines of like, uh, you know, there were several of them were out to eat or something. And she's like, something, something, something kidnapped, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. You know, if I ever get kidnapped, this is what I'm going to do, blah, blah, blah, blah. And all of a sudden Siri says, if you need assistance or if you are in trouble, please, I was like, stop listening. So it's very, uh, it's very helpful except for when you reach its limits, which I understand Apple's not going to let Siri teach you how to do Kung Fu.

17:28So no, and it's, it's, I appreciate how it's brevity. I find its responses, especially for world knowledge to be much shorter and to the point rather than claw Gemini and Chachipiti, which I'll be honest, I haven't really used Gemini in a month or so and my Chachipiti usage is decreasing. So it's basically just clawed in Siri AI, but I like Siri AI's responses. And also my video, there were a bunch of use cases that I did not realize it was going to be capable of. Like if you're, if you see a clip of a movie on social media, you can ask Siri, what movie

18:01is this or what TV show? And it will do it. You can even like this Instagram account that suggests YouTube videos, you know, there's no link to the video, but they took a screenshot of the video with the title and you can ask Siri AI, Hey, find this video on YouTube and it will do it. It will get you the link to that video from what was on screen. And it was right. It even, I could find restaurants based on the context clues of whatever's on screen. So I was really impressed with what it can do with on screen awareness. Like it is very clear, but it is also clear that the on screen awareness ends at the screen.

18:36So if you're on a Safari webpage and you ask it to do something, it may be able to see the full page content. It may not so far as like the one place, maybe, maybe not. But if you're an Instagram and you're trying to save a recipe, which is like one of my biggest shortcuts for people is like save this, you know, if a creator puts the ingredients and the steps to a recipe in the caption of the post with a shortcut, I can extract that information from the raw HTML and make it into an, into an Apple note. But with the on screen awareness, it was clear that when I asked Siri AI to like, Hey, take

19:08this recipe and make an Apple note, it would do it all. It would take the ingredients and the steps it could see, put it in Apple notes. So that's great. But it stopped wherever the screen stopped. So it got like steps one and two, but if steps three, four, and five were below the screen, like you couldn't see it visually, it couldn't pull it from Instagram. So it seems a little limited. And I had some people comment that Gemini can have access to the full screen, even though, you know, below the visual area, visible area. So we'll see, I'm going to do some more testing might compare with Gemini for that.

19:40But even things like I'm going to see the Odyssey tonight. I'm very excited, get to see it on opening night. And so when I bought the ticket yesterday, I, the ticket information was on screen, like from my purchase, and I just held the side button. And I said, add this to my calendar, got all the information, the location, the time, made the calendar event, boom, done. And that kind of onscreen awareness, just no matter what you're looking at, it can take action with it, adding, you know, it can add multiple events to your calendar. If you're looking at something like tour dates or your kid's football or soccer schedule,

20:12whichever you prefer, you can add all those things. And it works on all your Apple devices. Like, I think it's really good. And even moving events. I was like, hey, move this calendar event to this day and time. It can move those events. It just does it. And it's really good at it. So I'm very bullish on the Siri AI stuff. I've been using it more and more and finding out use cases of like, do I ask Claude this? I can say, I need to buy some new tires because I don't know if you know this, but tires on an electric car wear faster.

20:45Well, the car's heavier. And they put those stupid Michelin Sport S's that are like this much rubber. Well, I didn't realize until last Thursday, Thursday night after our last episode, I was heading to Lakeland and we were actually going to go see Moana live action. And when I got to the parking lot, the tire pressure gauge on my car was like ticking down visibly. It went like 38, 35, 32. And I was like, what is happening? Got out of the car and heard a hissing from my back tire.

21:16Which is not good. Not what you want to hear. Electric or not, that's bad. This is the first time this has happened to me. I have a 2013 Tesla Model S, the old car. I was like, oh, well, let me check for the spare. I didn't realize, Jason. No spares. No, it's just extra weight. Actually, you got to have room for the battery. So no spare tire. So I was like, okay, well, I guess let me see roadside assistance. State Farm wanted to tow the car. Tesla has a roadside assistance in the app. Have you used that? Did you use that when your tire like fell off or whatever?

21:47Oh, no, I don't have the roadside assistance for Tesla because that's a feature you have to pay for. Is it? Okay, because it's in the app. And it went so far as to hitting requests, but it was basically just going to tow me again. Yeah, they're just going to tow you. They'll put you on a flatbed and take you somewhere. I was like, I can make it to some place. And so I got my portable compressor, which is one of the best things you should have in the car is where you can plug it into the power thing and fill up your tire. I filled it up as high as it would go. And it was filling up, so it wasn't leaking so fast where it couldn't fill up.

22:18I was able to fill it up. And I went eight minutes away to a tire place, got a new tire. But now I have to buy three new tires because one, it blew out. It wasn't that I like went over a nail or something like it actually like blew. I don't know because it was like balding or whatever. So anyway, so I took a picture of the tire and I was like, I'm going to ask AI to just find me this tire. I'll just buy three. And I got a guy in the corner that changes amounts for super cheap. So I took a picture of it and I went to Claude and I was like, find me this model tire. And it was taking a long time to like find this model.

22:49I was like, man, maybe this is a hard tire to find. And after it gave me the answer, which seemed very long, I realized I'd switched to Fable for a request and didn't change back. It was actually building you a tire. So I used Fable and asked him where I could buy this tire. And it was, man, it was thinking hard about it because I'd also send like two pictures because I don't know anything about tires. So I took a picture of the tire and it was telling me things like interpreting the tire text and looking closely at this.

23:20I was like, why is it doing all this? It's because Fable. Fable was working on getting me a spare tire. Man, the number of tokens you burned. I probably burned half of the, yeah. So I had to remember to change that back because I was, I used it to help me. This is a side note. One of the most requested shortcuts I have is a shortcut that opens news articles in Apple News. So if I see Jason's link.com article, run a shortcut, open that in Apple News. And if you, if Apple News is in the share sheet, that's the best way to do it. And that works, but there's no URL scheme that seems to work consistently because some

23:54people use RSS reader apps and the news app doesn't show up in the share. For some of those apps like net newswire. And so I asked Fable to help me with this. Hasn't gotten there yet. We're, we've been going back and forth for days, but that's why I was using Fable. I was like, I'm going to put the most powerful brain on this to see, can I, can this figure it out? But anyway, it has not figured it out yet. So that's been Syria. It's been good experience. If you want to jump on the public beta, I feel like if any year you thought about jumping on a beta, this is probably the year to do it. I think it's the most stable. Yeah.

24:25I will just warn people because I believe this is still true. I don't have a device. I should, I'm not going to upgrade one of my kids to 27 just to check this, but you can upgrade, but you're not going to get Siri AI immediately. You're going to be on the wait list, which as we, if you remember from when you first could take you two or three weeks to get off that wait list. So just keep that in mind that you're going to be putting a beta on your phone and you are main, you may not get the immediate satisfaction of being able to use Siri AI.

24:58That is true. There are a bunch of other features you'll get to use. Sure. I mean, the performance, transparency slider, transparency slider, you can do that stuff. Yeah. You know, you can do all that. All right. We need to get to the open AI stuff, but before we do, I need to, I want to talk about Apple maps because Apple had announced earlier this year that ads were coming to Apple maps, meaning that businesses could buy sponsored things, suggested locations in Apple maps.

25:28We already talked about that and how we feel about it, but Apple is going to ban home services from buying ads. So this is things like electricians, plumbers, repair guys, or ladies, they will not be able to buy Apple maps ads, which I found interesting. I think in Google maps, that kind of stuff is allowed. Like I had, I've recently searched for repair, like air conditioner repair guys or whatever. And I think I've saw sponsored ads in Google maps for those kinds of businesses, but Apple

26:00is going to ban them. I've, I imagine it's because those kinds of services related industries, if there is an ad for a plumber and that plumber screws up somebody's house, that person is going to be mad at Apple because Apple surfaced that person because they bought an ad, you know, regardless of their quality or rating, you know what I mean? How other people's experience, it was just an ad. And if it's not super clear there was an ad, people are going to be upset. So maybe that's why they did it. But I think it's interesting that they are picking and choosing what they're going to

26:34allow to be ads. Well, I believe that the local service ads is actually Google's biggest ad category. Like I think that's where they make most of the money. I also think that philosophically, it kind of makes sense because if you open a map and you're looking for something, like I wouldn't look on the maps app if I needed a locksmith, right? Because the map is like, give me directions to go to the place, not find me provider who will come to my house. Right? Like you, this almost sounds like ridiculous, but it's like, it would make more sense to

27:08find a locksmith on Uber or DoorDash than it would on the Google Maps app. So there's part of it where I think philosophically, maybe Apple's trying to prevent some confusion and like, just make it clear that like, no, that the things that, well, first of all, I don't think they should be doing ads, but the things you can pay for an ad for is I have a new bakery. I want everyone to know. So if people are searching for donuts, they find my place. Right? So I don't know. I think there's a philosophical piece of it there, but they are, I mean, the reason it's a big deal is they are basically saying no to what is the biggest category of revenue

27:40for ads and in this tech crunch article, there are screenshots of what ads will look like. This is from Apple, but you could see the image here. And when you do not even a search, if you just like slide up the search, uh, drawer or whatever, there will be suggested places possibly there before you even search. And the ad will be highlighted in blue with a little blue tag that says ad. And if you search for a place like restaurants, there might be that highlighted blue first result. I said, I'm still not crazy about this.

28:10I don't, uh, it's kind of me. I have decided, Steven, I understand advertising has made a lot of things possible, including like my job and your job. I get it. Sure. However, it is such a terrible experience. The number of times recently in, uh, so I needed a, I needed a disc utility because I had an SD card that I, that had like 45 raw files that were just missing. So I'm like, but I'm like, well, before I give up and reformat this card and never use

28:41it again, let me see if there's a, so there was a thing called disc drill, which is an app that you can mount a SD card and it, it'll find everything. It did a great, it did exactly what I needed to do, but I had done some research. This was when I was in England. I'd asked actually a couple of the other photographers, like what are they? And everyone recommended the same thing. The problem is you search for disc drill and you get a lot of things where the page header says disc drill, but that is not what they are. It is just a search game.

29:12You get all this stuff and even you get URLs that are variations of disc drill from all these competitors. And then I actually downloaded like three of them before I realized this is not, these are not the apps that I'm supposed to. It's like, so I don't like this idea where if someone is searching literally for notion or Dropbox or something, you get all of the other things first. Like what do you, do you think that that's like the way we should be living our life? No, but that's also how the app store functions, which we've talked about. Like, which I think is terrible.

29:43Yeah. It's not, it's not good. And like Apple could do things to, I think it's keyword sniping is the phrase. Like Apple should be able to not allow that. First, first of all, I just went to the app store cause I was about to do a search to see what kind of results come up. And before I even search anything, Google Gemini is at the top of suggested as an ad, which is like, okay, okay. Well, if you, and if you search, yes, it's kind of gross. And if you search for overcast, this is always the titular example I think of, there is another

30:17podcast player that is obviously sniping that keyword because if you like the word overcast is not anywhere in the title of the app or anything, there's an ad first, then overcast is there in this tiny little line. And then the second ad starts, I mean, I would say three quarters or more of this screen on my iPhone is ads for apps that are not overcast. Yeah. And neither of them should be there because the user is clearly searching for overcast. Correct. Correct.

30:47Now, if I search, go ahead, go ahead. Well, Apple has said in their maps that if you, it's so weird because if you're through like the small Apple business and you buy your maps, you can't do that. However, it will be available to advertisers who are using the Apple ads platform, which is a completely separate thing. And we'll be also, so like they're actually disadvantaging like your friend who owns a restaurant or whatever, because they can, they won't be able to, but like Denny's can just buy their

31:17name and just show their ad instead. And I hate to do this to you, Jason. Have you searched your app in the app store? I mean, I don't have really great SEO yet. Well, I searched for contextually and there, it is the same situation as overcast. Two other ads take up three quarters or more of this screen. Neither of them are your app. Your app is here in that small sliver like overcast. The first one is called context, personal data kit. Never heard of that. 34 reviews, not a huge app.

31:49And then gleam social intelligence is the other app. Well, in mine, I get the first thing I get is Grammarly. Wow. That's definitely not a notes app at all. The second one I get is something called summary AI note taker, which I don't know what that is either, but I am actually happy because there was actually quite a long time that if you search for my app, it just keeps going for a very long time. Well, let me say the last thing before we take a quick break. I searched for my app because my app is still in the app store and it is a,

32:20it's not, it's got nine reviews. Okay. It's almost a five star app. It's my coffee finder. I searched for beard FM coffee, which is a pretty specific search term. I feel like to put in the app store, the first result, it's the same situation. There's two big ads. I said, ADS big ads. One of the top, one of the top is merge cooking, which is some in-app purchase game scam. And then after my app is hungry root, healthy groceries.

32:51What is happening? What is happening with these ads? Like that, that is a, that is a poor user. And that's the question. If ads make the user experience significantly worse, that's a problem and probably should be re-examined on how these ads are placed, how keywords can be, you know, focused and all of that. So I've still never seen an ad in Apple maps when I search and it's supposedly not rolled out just yet. Apple said it was coming this summer and Apple, you know, whenever it says a season, it's

33:22always like, it might be the last day of that season. So it might be September 20th, you know, the first time you see an ad in Apple maps, but they are coming and now it might come sooner rather than later. I did just notice that Chris Lawley's app basically uses my UI. Well, but it's, that's probably not him. It's probably because I was, I was making an app and then a good friend of the show started making a similar app and he was much farther along. And so I was like, well, you just, just make the app. And the UI was very similar.

33:55And I think there is a wireframe that these AIs are using to create stuff. And I've seen more and more, I've seen more and more posts on social media where people will call out website elements where they're like, that's a chat GPT design stick kind of thing. And so I don't think anything was purposeful. No, no, no. I didn't mean that in that way at all. I was like, oh, look at that. But yeah, I spent a lot of time actually going through and being very specific about the interface, but yeah, I'm not mad about it.

34:26It's totally fine. But here's the thing though, too. I imagine as you are very specific about your user interface and tweaking it. Yeah. I just taught Claude. This is what you should do for the next guy. You taught Claude. You're like, that is training data. Yeah, that's true. To do it. And you're welcome, Chris. No, I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding. No, I know. But that's also like the one, the app that I was trying to make when our friend sent me their app, like a test flight, a lot of the elements were very similar and he never saw my app. My app never was on the app store, but I was using Claude to make it.

34:59And so I imagine whatever follow-ups and requests that I was giving Claude to design my app, like I'm sure that fed into someone else who was, you know, requested a very similar use case. It's all training data. Yeah, that's true. I didn't mean for this to be a super deep topic, but I do think as the question of what tasks and jobs are safe or not safe with the rise of AI type tools, this is now looking like the AI appification or whatever you want to say, like those apps that are made with

35:35AI, if you don't have that creative app skill set that maybe you can like hand design something that's very different. A lot of the apps might start looking similar and have similar elements, even though it's very different people making it. They might be starting like never see other apps as inspiration. Just the fact that all of this training data is going back up into one place, namely Claude or whatever, it's going to come back out when someone else wants to make an app. And so there's going to be the word I've been looking for homogenization of design and elements

36:10from apps and websites. And, you know, we'll see. We'll see what happens over the next few years. Sure. But I don't know. I've also been seeing a lot on social media of people just resisting AI. Oh, and that was the example I wanted to use in the Siri AI section. One thing I did not put in my video and I didn't know was possible is that Siri AI can apparently identify AI generated imagery. Oh, yeah. Because I took this screenshot of an Amazon post months ago and it was such a clear AI generated

36:46image in the Amazon post. And so I'm going to, this is just an image on my phone. I'm going to ask Siri AI, is this an AI generated image? And we did this in the pre-show, but let's try it again now and see what it does.

37:00Yes, this appears to be an AI generated image. There are several visual inconsistencies common in AI generation, such as the man's hands blending unnaturally into the plush toy he is holding and the blurred, nonsensical shapes of the background elements and machinery. So there you go. I'm going to be making that Instagram reel later today showing that Siri AI can identify AI generated imagery as long as it's really bad. And now, no, HomePod, I'm not talking to you. You don't have AI. Get out of here, HomePod. Here's a station just for you. No. Oh, my goodness.

37:31What is happening?

37:35My HomePod is rebelling. The machines are rising up. The machines are rising up. It heard it be called nonsensical. Blurred, nonsensical machines. Thankfully, the HomePods don't have legs yet. The HomePods don't have legs yet. All right. We need to talk about OpenAI. They had a series of unfortunate events. Some self-inflicted. Well, maybe all self-inflicted. But anyway, we're going to get to that. Before we do, I want to thank our friends. I have a new sponsor today. This is exciting. Decagon. Decagon is the first sponsor today. And listen, as your company grows, you have to do customer support.

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42:53Well, I would argue that it started with them punching their users in the face. Okay. Well, let's start there. This was Thursday. So here's the timeline. Thursday, OpenAI screwed up their app. Friday, we learned that OpenAI stole trade secrets. And then Tuesday, OpenAI, it was, well, Mark Gurman at Bloomberg said they're going to release a HomePod. That's their big AI hardware, which is like whatever. Okay. But first, let's start with the app. And Jason wrote a wonderful piece on link.com.

43:24We'll link the Apple News link in the show notes. But tell me, because I'm holding out. I've heard all the uproar about the app. I'm still on the old app. I didn't have Codex on my Mac Studio, so I'm not installing it. I got the splash screen when I opened the ChatGPT app, and it was like, there's a new ChatGPT experience. Do you want it? And I quietly X'd out of that splash screen and just continued using my ChatGPT classic app. So tell me, what's the deal? Yeah. Okay. So essentially, what they did is they took the Codex app, which a lot of people did not have.

43:55A lot of people did have. And it's a genuinely great – Codex is genuinely a great app. Like just – Tool, yeah. Codex, yeah, it's a tool. Thank you. So they introduced a new thing called ChatGPT Work, which sounds like Google for Work or Microsoft Outlook or something, right? ChatGPT Work sounds like ChatGPT you use at work. They're trying to sound real corporate-y. But that is not what ChatGPT Work is. ChatGPT Work is Cloud Co-Work, but ChatGPT, right?

44:25Right. I mean, that's what it is. ChatGPT. They didn't even come up with an original name. It's just – what if we don't put the co in front of it? We just call it the same thing? And they combined those two things into the Codex app, and they renamed the whole thing ChatGPT. Super not confusing at all, right? So what that meant is if you had the Codex app and you updated it, it became ChatGPT. And then if you had the ChatGPT app, it became ChatGPT Classic and probably was in your trash. So if you wanted to keep the Classic app – actually, on my computer, it just went to the trash called ChatGPT.

44:59So I had to drag it out and rename it ChatGPT Classic so I could keep it. You had to rename the app file? Well, just whatever the name is, yeah. I mean, you just can call it anything you want. Because if I download Codex today, it's called ChatGPT? Yes. And then it moves the other one to the trash. So it's like, don't use the Chat app, please. And there's a screenshot in my article. But there is still technically Chat. It is just like one of the options over on the sides and it opens a floating window. And then if you want your previous history of Chats, you have to toggle over to that.

45:32And it's like this weird, weird, weird UI. Also, they put a browser. They killed Atlas and put the browser in the Codex app. It's like all of it is insane, if you ask me. Like, and the thing that ChatGPT, or excuse me, that OpenAI is trying to say is, we don't really want people using ChatGPT. We want them using these things that we make money on, which is ChatGPT work and Codex. And, but I feel like the biggest problem is, it's such a terrible experience.

46:05And granted, if you don't have the Codex app, you could just keep, like you, just keep ChatGPT. I'd never update. I mean, that's exactly what I'm doing. Except, how long do you think ChatGPT Classic is going to stick around? Three months max. Okay, maybe. I would have maybe said like six months. But yeah, like I don't think that it's very long for this world. And what they're basically telling you is that free service and app that a billion people started using, that is not the future. And the reason it's not the future is because Cloud exists and Cloud has the thing called Cowork and whatever.

46:38And it's like, we have to go and do that thing as well. And also, we'll make a HomePod.

46:43Yeah, we'll get to that last part. So, I just saw everywhere online. I mean, Gruber was ticked. Ben Thompson's like, not a good experience. But just people anecdotally on social media were like, where did my chats go? Because if you updated to the Codex app or downloaded it, that chat history, like you're saying, apparently is very important to people. And they couldn't find it easily. And that was unfortunate. But also, like you're saying, this is clearly OpenAI needing to slightly pivot and gear itself toward that enterprise.

47:17Otherwise, this is a work tool for businesses. And hopefully, they pay money and clear that they're doing this before they IPO. So, hopefully, all this can be behind them. And then they will be positioned as like the enterprise tool. It also feels like, you tell me, it feels like Claude is winning that race. And it's not close right now. I think that's actually 100% true, which is the reason why OpenAI is responding this way. OpenAI has been, ChatGPT has been a consumer brand.

47:49Claude has always been a nerd and then enterprise brand, right? And what ChatGPT, what OpenAI has realized is that consumers is not very profitable because most people are just using the free version of ChatGPT in a browser or in an app or whatever. And they lose money every time. Like literally, if the service is free, but it costs them money, they lose money every time. And even the $20 a month plan, I'm pretty sure they're losing a bunch of money on people. Because $20 a month was literally just a number somebody made up. And they're like, how much do we think?

48:2020 bucks. Okay, let's try that. And they did it. And so, that's why you always get these notifications that are like, hey, we've extended access to Fable for three more days until we figure out how much usage this is going to be or whatever. Like they just don't have a clue. And so, I think, yeah, I feel like the reason that the chat history is so important to people is that's what people were using it for. The majority of people were consumers using a free version or a $20 a month version. And they were using it to do chat stuff. And yes, it is true that that is not the most useful way to use any of these tools.

48:52By far, Codex, Cloud Code, Co-Work, ChatGPT are phenomenal. And ChatGPT's version of it is actually incredible. The vast majority of people don't care. And so, that's why in this case, what opening I did, in my opinion, they did two things very wrong. One, the app is just bad. It's just a bad design. It is a garbage whatever, you know, non-native app. It's like, because they had a native app and they made this thing and it's weird.

49:25The Atlas browser thing is like in a sidebar that pulls up over. Like, it's just so, it's terrible. And it's a brand marketing user experience problem, which is like we're telling people and creating confusion and creating friction because we're trying to force them into a certain mode of using this that people just, that's not what they ask for. I also feel that we talked about, I think last week, I can't remember, but I think Siri AI, once that is in people's hands this September, like for most people, there is going to be a shift.

50:03And people will start to use it for their casual knowledge, general request stuff, because one, it'll be quote unquote free. They won't have to go to a separate app to do it. And it will have that personal context. And it's just, it'll be built in. And I wonder, tell me if you think this might be true, but maybe this is also open AI responding to that coming shift where on the iPhone, like a lot of people use the ChatGPT app right now on their iPhone.

50:33And on their iPad, I see like real world people doing it. I think when Siri AI is out there and people understand they can just ask it and the Siri AI app is going to be just popped up on their device and they're going to be like, oh, I can just go here and do it. I don't know. I feel like that's going to be a shift too. And maybe open AI is trying to make some changes to shift that part of their business too. Is that maybe? Maybe. I will. So I think actually, yes, because I, and I don't know how the stack looks, but if you just imagine a vertical stack and it's a billion.

51:03A billion people, how they're using different things, right? Like there's some tier at the top that are like making apps and code. And there's some people, some small percentage of those people who actually know what they're doing when they make apps and stuff like that. And then there's a bunch of people who don't. And then there's a bunch of people who are like, oh, I like all the advanced features. And then there's a bunch of people that are just asking random questions. Like what does a black hole look like? Right. And that group of people, I could see just using Siri AI. And it's, but I don't think open AI cares because they're not paying for chat. They're not paying for chat, but they are no longer in that ecosystem.

51:38They're no longer giving that training data data. They're not an upsell you can do anymore. What I don't think we've really explored. So I think Siri's killer app is going to be the personal context. Like we've talked about, like I did this last week. We had gotten a message from someone that on this trip we're going on with some important information. And I couldn't find, I couldn't like, is this a text message? And if it was a text message, I don't have this person in my context. So like, did I delete the text message or was it an email? But I just like said to it, what, where was that message? They talked about this.

52:08And it's like, here, you have this email from this date, from this person. And it has a link. And if you're, if you want to do it, you go, that's great. But I also asked chat GPT and open it or excuse me, Claude to do a lot of things. And I don't like, is Siri going to be the thing when I'm like, could you summarize the open AI Apple lawsuit that Apple file today? Right. Like I do that kind of thing. Give me all this information. And I don't know if Siri is going to fill that need. I'm not saying it can't do it. I don't know if people are going to use it in that way.

52:40And if that's the case, that's like, there's a pivot shift in there for these companies where they have to like, I just think there's going to be a reshuffling of the stack. I'm just not sure what the limits are going to be for Siri AI and what we would still want to use those other things for. Right. So, well, we'll see. The app was bad now. I'm going to hold out as long as I can. It's real bad. And we'll see how that goes. You can read Jason's article. So that was Thursday. And then Friday, Apple filed a lawsuit against open AI.

53:10And this totally blew up. We'll put a link to Jason's article as well talking about it and a few others. The gist is Apple is accusing open AI of maybe stealing or seeking, trying to court trade secrets, Apple secrets via either interviews or things like that. So some of the stories are open AI. So some of the stories are open AI's chief hardware officer, Tang Yu Tan, who worked at Apple for 24 years as the VP of product design for iPhone and Apple Watch.

53:43I mean, this dude was high up in Apple. He is now at open AI as their chief hardware officer, which remember, open AI doesn't have any hardware right now. But he's the chief hardware officer, clearly trying to make stuff. And some of the allegations is that in the interview process, Tang Yu Tan would instruct potential employees that were leaving Apple trying to get hired at open AI to just bring some Apple stuff to the interview. You know, if you have any hard unreleased hardware, any parts, and in the court filing, you can download the PDF from various sites.

54:20You know, I put it through Claude and I asked it, like, what were some of the things like they would just bring show? They called it open AI internally, Tang Yu Tan called it a show and tell, where in these interview processes, the former Apple employees or maybe current Apple employees are just left would bring hardware to these interviews to show things that Apple might have been working on. This included unreleased products. There were also information where Apple's metal fabrication processes.

54:51Some secrets from that might have gone over to open AI through some of these employees. And I think it's about 400 Apple employees right now that currently work at open AI that were formerly Apple. So there's been a large segment of people who have gone from Apple to open AI. And then one particular allegation in the court filing, Apple says that Chang Liu, previously a senior systems electrical engineer at Apple, before joining open AI, sent this message to an Apple employee, said, caps, LOL.

55:24OK, I found out I can access the network storage. So funny, meaning he can access Apple's network storage still, even though he left the company and would be pulling things to show open AI. That network storage, I heard Gruber talk about this, and I'm also familiar that Apple uses Box as their, like, cloud file storage. And it seems like I don't think it's that. I mean, network storage, I would think, if you're not familiar, sometimes in a company, there might be a network storage at the physical location, like at Apple Park.

55:59And with VPNs and other connections, like your MacBook at home might be able to access that network storage that's in the physical location. It seems like it's that kind of situation, like the network storage at Apple Park. And he was able to pull files off of it, even though he was terminated. So these are the allegations in the lawsuit. Now, open AI responded several ways to these allegations. The first response came on X, which I'm like, how are we still doing this? But anyway, this was Drew Pusateri, which is open AI's director of communications.

56:36He said, our statement in response to this lawsuit, we have no interest in other companies' trade secrets. Now, this is particularly hilarious, I feel like, because number one, open AI is working with Johnny Ive. Clearly, they're interested in the kind of stuff Apple does, because they hired the guy that worked at Apple for decades designing their hardware. So, like, to say you have no interest in other companies' trade secrets, on the face of it, sounds like complete BS.

57:06Like, that's ridiculous. Yeah. So, whatever. Sounds like a lie. And then there is a response, the official response from OpenAI, is that while we take these allegations seriously, we're not aware of any evidence that this complaint has merit.

57:26Sure, buddy. Well, also, that's just as much of a non-statement, just to be clear. We are not aware of any evidence that this complaint has merit. How to say something without saying something. I think that's just words. But even if you start to parse out the words, we're not aware of any evidence. Like, you could say that if you just hadn't read the lawsuit. Like, if you haven't read it, then that is a true statement. We are not aware of any evidence that this lawsuit has merit. Hadn't heard of that. Okay, Stephen. Yeah. I do think there's a couple things that are important here. First of all, Chang Liu cooked.

57:59Like, the stuff that he did is real bad. It's real bad. I think that Apple was just hoping that they would come across a situation like that so that they could file this lawsuit. Because the other thing that happens in a lawsuit is that one side tells its story. And, of course, as it tells its story, it makes any potential thing that the other side did sound like Armageddon. Like, it's like the end of the universe is happening because this one guy asked you to bring your iPhone 4S to an interview or whatever it was.

58:31Like, also, if you were interviewing people from another company to come to your company, you're probably going to ask them, show us what you've worked on because that's how you decide if they're going to be good at what they do. So, I'm not sure that that part of the lawsuit really has any actual merit to hold up to. I think other than this, and I think this is the point of the lawsuit, if 400 people have left Apple to go to OpenAI, there's probably a whole lot more that are going to be leaving to go. So, many people there, you know, from what I've heard, still have very fond feelings for Johnny Ive and that team and that kind of thing

59:07and would love to go work with them. And OpenAI is a company where you get some stock options and you could become a very, very wealthy, even though you're probably already very wealthy at Apple, whatever. I think that this is just a lawsuit meant to make sure that anyone who currently works at Apple who might be thinking of leaving Apple understands, if you do anything like this, we will put your name on the front page of a lawsuit that we file in a court, right? Like, we are, because look at who they did. Like, they didn't put Johnny Ive's name on this, even though IO is listed as a defendant, right?

59:42But they did not sue Johnny Ive. And so, I think it's, I think it is important, though, to parse it out. Because I think most of the stuff, Tang, U-Tan, I think that's just, it's completely meaningless to this lawsuit. Like, I don't think any of that is going to, I don't, I wouldn't be surprised if he's dismissed as a defendant. Because I don't think that they're going to be able to prove that any of the things he did are theft of trade secrets. Because they didn't allege that he took anything from Apple except for employees. And if those employees revealed information, that might be different, right?

1:00:13Think about that for a second. Sure. What could he possibly have done wrong? He left the company, and then he tried to hire a bunch of people. And when he did, he asked them to bring in their stuff. That's not an illegal thing. It might be bad. It might not look good. It's if those employees take trade secrets. And inducing them to do that, I shouldn't say it's nothing. But my point is, it's very hard to prove unless you can prove that people actually did it. And the only one they can prove anything, it seems like, in this lawsuit is Chang Liu. Like I said, he's cooked. So that, one, I want to actually read from the court filing.

1:00:47I will put a link to the PDF. This is the one John Gruber is hosting on DaringFireball.net because it's kind of weird to get to otherwise. But anyway, this is from the court filing. This is Apple. In the months before he left Apple, Mr. Tan met with OpenAI or its collaborators and discussed meetings with a key Apple supplier. He began emailing himself information about Apple suppliers and internal summaries of the consumer electronics industry. Today, when interviewing Apple employees for jobs at OpenAI, Mr. Tan uses Apple's confidential information to gain access to even more insider knowledge.

1:01:19He has used an Apple internal project codename to ask, what's the plan for an unannounced Apple product? He has directed, now, that's probably not illegal. Like for him to, if he's no longer at Apple and he asks a current or former Apple employee about it, I imagine it's on the employee not to divulge the information if they have signed some NDA. He's not at Apple anymore. So asking the question is probably not wrong. But if he emailed himself information, internal information, like if he emailed it from like when he was still at Apple meeting with suppliers and sending information that he is then using outside of OpenAI, I imagine that there is a case there where whatever NDA or something that he would have signed at Apple, that that would be in breach of that agreement.

1:02:04If he's sending information out of Apple, while at Apple, about something secret. Okay. Does a lawsuit say anything about an NDA? Let me see. I don't know. But here's the thing. They could sue him personally for breaking an NDA. But usually if someone violates an NDA, you don't make a big public stink. Right? Because you don't want to make more public whatever it is that they violated as an NDA. You are. The whole point is that you're trying to keep things confidential.

1:02:37Right? And I believe Apple doesn't use the phrase NDA. I think they call them something else. It's not anywhere in this. It's not anywhere. They call them something else. And so, again, I guess maybe the point you're making, maybe I'm overstating it. But we haven't seen any evidence of what Apple has alleged about him. But the things that they've alleged about Tang Yu Tan are very, very different than the things that they've alleged about Tang Liu, who literally kept a laptop that wasn't his and continued logging into systems that he did not actually have authorization for, which

1:03:10makes Apple look pretty bad. It's like, if you didn't turn off the guy's box account, that's bad. That's on you. Let me also, so this is also from the court filing. It says, Mr. Liu tried to access Apple's network storage, a cloud-based file repository containing Apple's confidential engineering files, project documentation, and other proprietary information. Hard to tell if that's box.net or, like, some proprietary cloud storage, like, that they're hosting. But also, yeah, if this dude left Apple and someone forgot to turn off his access to engineering

1:03:45files and proprietary information, like, yeah, that is a security issue. Yeah, it just sounds like somebody forgot to go into the admin panel and be like, deactivate this guy. That's why you need some of our sponsors today to work on some of your security, maybe. Yeah, there you go. But, yeah, you're right. That dude is probably cooked. Tang Yutan, it seems less clear what exactly did wrong. But this is, like, so high level. A lot of people are making this comparison. I don't think Apple's gone after a company I feel this strongly in a while.

1:04:19And it feels a little bit like a Steve Jobs era. Some company has wronged Apple and we are going to go after them now. And I don't know. It feels like this has not happened in a while. And maybe Apple's, like, I don't know, has a little unction back. Does it feel like that? Well, I mean, that was sort of the argument that Ben Thompson and John Gruber made on Dithering, which was that John Ternus and Tang Yutan did not get along at all. They just, like, hated each other. I feel like an important piece of information. And then Ternus, I think, got the job that Tang Tan wanted.

1:04:51Not the CEO one, the head of hardware or whatever. So there's, like, a lot of context here that seems like it's helpful. Like, this is more just, like, people mad at each other than actual giant principled philosophical. Like, right? This actually feels more like Steve Jobs saying, I'm going to go nuclear over Android. Right? He's just super mad. Like, very, very mad. And in that case, felt very violated because Eric Schmidt was on the board of Apple. The head of Google at the time was on the board. And then they just decided to make a competing phone system, ecosystem.

1:05:22I think that in this case, I believe that it's probably true that Apple would not care about OpenAI, except for that OpenAI is talking about making a device, a hardware device, which is Apple's. Apple's like, dude, just run your stuff on our hardware. It's the best in the world, and we're happy to stay away from your business. Like, just do your thing. But they're like, no, no, no, no. Not only are we going to do it, but we're going to hire your iconic hardware guy who left your company. The thing is, you can pay $6.5 billion for Johnny Ive's company and his design, whatever.

1:05:55But what you can't pay for is the decades of experience. Like, you can't pay for Apple in China. Like, that book, all that experience, you don't get that with Johnny Ive. Johnny Ive doesn't know, like, machining processes, like, to build a billion devices. Like, that's not his area of expertise. So you have to bring in all these other people. So, and Apple, I think, is very, I agree. I think Apple's very upset about that. I think it's just, I think it's a little bit more personal than just purely on principle. Sure.

1:06:25And so, the last thing I'll say from the court filing, apparently it's called an IPA, not an NDA. Intellectual Property Agreement. Right, and so it says, Mr. Liu signed and is bound by an IPA obligating him to protect Apple's confidential information. It goes on to say that he downloaded dozens of files that were on Apple's network repository, downloaded confidential technical presentations, spreadsheets, PDFs, and written work product, and also downloaded a presentation concerning the manufacture and testing of multilayer or main logic boards,

1:06:57complex circuit boards, and Apple's hardware. So, like you were saying, Liu is cooked. Because it sounds like he signed an IPA with Apple, he downloaded a bunch of stuff that he should not have been sharing, and it sounds like they have proof of all of that. Well, and here's the, sorry, that's an important point. It sounds like they have proof of all of that. They put the text messages in the lawsuit, not because it makes the case stronger, but because every single Apple employee who reads that is reminded,

1:07:28oh yeah, they can access everything. They can access my text messages on my corporate device. They can access everything on my laptop on my corporate device. Oh, yeah. Be careful. That's the only reason you put the text messages in the lawsuit, because you know what the text messages are, and you didn't even have to get a subpoena for them, because they were Apple devices, like Apple corporate devices. Yeah, as an employee, your employee device. A couple other just peripheral things. John Gruber talked about when he was at DubDub, and I didn't ask anybody in briefings about the ChatGPT relationship

1:08:02and the integration with Apple Intelligence, because it seemed pretty clear like Siri AI is the deal, and it's not ChatGPT, and like it seems like even in the Siri settings, like on the iOS 27 beta right now. I can help with that. HomePod, if you don't. Steven, hold on. I need to turn on. Listeners, this is an important reiteration of my cardinal rule, which is that the only thing that should ever listen to you is your watch. Yeah. Okay. Anyway, the ChatGPT extension for Apple Intelligence,

1:08:36it's like lower and lower in the settings pane. It feels like with every beta that goes by. But also, I've seen people, they're in my YouTube comments and on social media, they're asking like, hey, where's the Gemini integration? I heard that you were going to be able to use Gemini with Apple Intelligence, which is kind of hilarious because people still don't, not hilarious like they just don't know, but it is telling that the announcement that Apple was working with Google Gemini for Siri AI in people's minds were, oh, I'll just be able to use Gemini as the assistant on my iPhone. Like that's still in people's heads.

1:09:07Yeah. That who heard that announcement. And that is not, that does not exist. There is no Gemini extension in Apple Intelligence where you can sign in with your Google account and use Gemini as your assistant. And so Gruber and others said they had asked some employees about that ChatGPT extension at DubDub. And they quote, Gruber said they were ice cold. The Apple employees were ice cold in their response about that integration, which knowing this lawsuit was coming, they knew this was coming, totally makes sense.

1:09:37Well, they may or may not have known this coming, but the other thing that has been brewing is that OpenAI has been threatening to sue Apple over that. Right. Because they believe that this integration would be more beneficial to OpenAI and it has not been. So I think that says a couple of things. One, I don't think we will see any third-party integration in Apple Intelligence going forward. You know, there were the rumors that even Mark Gurman, journalist, excuse me, journalist Mark Gurman at Bloomberg said that Apple was considering having Gemini and Anthropic extensions

1:10:11so you could use whatever AI you want with Apple Intelligence. I don't think that's ever going to happen. I don't think we're going to see any kind of third-party extensions, especially after this whole rigmarole. Like, the one partner they did use, they are now involved in a lawsuit against. I don't think Apple is going to want to ever put themselves in that position again, number one. What were you going to say? I was just going to say Beta 3 is going to be like Gemini, Claude. Perplexity. Thief GPT. Deep Seek. No, it's going to be like criminal GPT. Oh, right, right, right. You can use them, but they steal stuff.

1:10:42They're going to put a skull and crossbones instead of their logo. And then, it seems like the ChatGPT extension is not long for this world. I feel like once Siri AI is out this fall, we get a couple software revisions in, iOS 27.3.4. I think that's going to go away. One, because there's not really reason for it anymore, honestly. Like, before Siri AI, sometimes I would ask using ChatGPT and ask like a question because I knew that ChatGPT would give me a better answer. I have no desire to do that right now.

1:11:14And honestly, having that extension signed into my ChatGPT Plus account, I don't think matters. And third side note, I keep getting, I'm being charged more for my ChatGPT usage in the API shortcuts because where I use ChatGPT the most is in my shortcuts because I have an API request built in there and it hits tokens. And for some reason in the last few weeks, I've had multiple charges now to use the same amount of tokens I've always used because I run the same shortcuts every day. And I'm like, well, I pay for CloudMax.

1:11:46So I'm just going to start using that API key and replace ChatGPT in all my shortcuts. And then I have no reason to pay for ChatGPT at all. And so I think that extension is going to go away at least by iOS 28, if not sooner. That's my prediction. The flip side of that, just the counterpoint argument is keeping them in there does alleviate the pressure from regulators, the competitive pressure that would exist if they make it so that no one else can. Because that's like one of the reasons they can't even release some of the stuff in Europe, right? Is because you have to give access to all these things.

1:12:18So it may be a middle ground where they're like, no, actually, we're going to sue you, but we'll let you stay for now. Yeah, true. Which side note, Apple Intelligence has actually been cleared for use in China. And interestingly, it's using not ChatGPT, like they're having to work with Alibaba and other like Chinese AI companies in order for it to power Apple Intelligence because it's in China kind of stuff. So that was interesting. I'll put a link in the show notes about that. But anyway, this lawsuit is going to be a big deal.

1:12:50We'll have to see. I'm excited to see what comes out during the trial because as they introduce evidence, all of this stuff is going to have to be public and whatever emails and text messages Apple and OpenAI bring to the table is going to be very interesting. We might even, you know, might see stuff from Johnny Ive in some of this evidence. You never know. So that is curious. And all of this to say, well, what hardware could OpenAI possibly be working on that they would steal Apple Trade Secrets? Oh, well, it's a HomePod mini. Apparently, it's going to be a HomePod smart speaker.

1:13:22That's ChatGPT. Jason, if this is going to be their first first-party hardware that they launched, like, show's over on OpenAI hardware. Like, no. I don't think so. No one's going to buy this. Who would buy this? Yeah, I mean, I feel like this is very similar to the Meta glasses, which I know we're going to talk about later. I just think that companies get very tunnel vision

1:13:53when it comes to things like this. They're like, we have to own our own hardware. It's like, no, you just don't. Right? Salesforce doesn't sell hardware because guess what? Salesforce runs on every laptop in the universe that has a browser. And they all have browsers. Like, I don't know why I picked Salesforce. You don't even need a laptop. You just need a browser. Yeah, that's true. They make an app for your phone, whatever. Like, God forbid you have to use it. It's fine. It's ubiquitous. You can just use it. The AI company, ChatGPT should be the same.

1:14:23OpenAI does not want to get into competition with the world's most capable hardware maker. Like, why would you want to have that fight? Why wouldn't you want to just have the best possible relationship with that company? Because, and the only reason is like, I don't want to give Apple 30% of my subscriptions. I get it. That doesn't seem like it's worth all of this. No. Or just do what Meta does and charge 30% more if someone subscribes to the internet purchase. Whatever. You know what I mean? Pass the saving, or the non-savings, onto the customer.

1:14:54So, I don't know. A HomePod, ChatGPT, that does not entice me at all. That's what Gurman reports they're working on. So, anyway, let's do a quick lightning round and we'll get to a personal attack. Mira Mirati, formerly OpenAI's CTO, has, she has a new startup, Thinking Machines, and they released their first model called Inkling. And this is apparently not as powerful as like the frontier models at OpenAI and Anthropic, but is specialized in being customized to a company's needs, possibly,

1:15:28which honestly makes a lot of sense. You know, I think a more highly specialized, less powerful AI might be more useful than Fable that's just looking up my tires or whatever. Not that it'd be more useful in a sense of like if it's highly customized to the use case of a company, it, you know, just would be more useful, I think. But anyway, so that's our startup, I think. And also, who was the person who was gunning for Sam Altman's position that just recently left OpenAI? I forget her name. OpenAI exec that left,

1:15:58you know what I'm talking about? I have no idea what you're talking about. I mean, Miramirati is the one who basically set the whole thing in motion. Fiji Simo stepped down. Oh, yeah, but she was the CEO of product. She was CEO of product, right. Gunning for Sam Altman. Not gunning for Sam Altman, but she, you know, again, that was part of just OpenAI's, no good, very bad week. Yes, that's true. They lost a person who had been gone basically for three months. That is true. That is true. She works remotely. So anyway, that was that. Netflix is trying to do a bunch of stuff. Netflix, they're doing short form in their app,

1:16:28which we had talked about. They're now in talks to by Letterboxd, which I imagine a lot of people would have thoughts about. But Letterboxd is beloved. And Netflix is also courting more podcasts and shows. Netflix is trying to do all this. Netflix is trying to be YouTube. It's trying to be TikTok. I don't think it's going to be able to do them all well, but it's trying. Yeah, I agree with you. I think I heard somebody say like Netflix is trying to become YouTube before YouTube becomes Netflix. But YouTube like has a way greater chance of becoming Netflix first. There's been shows on YouTube that are like Emmy nominated now,

1:17:01like Subway Takes got an Emmy nomination. Yes, I agree. And this is a side note. If you use Apple Card and you're on the iOS 27 beta, there's a really cool feature now where if you go to your recurring charges on Apple Card, there is now a calendar view and it shows you your upcoming recurring charges that are about to be charged. As you can go, the dates are highlighted with like little specific numbers so you can see. And it was at this moment that I realized

1:17:31apparently I'm paying $30 for Netflix. I did not realize my Netflix subscription was $30. Yeah, it just keeps getting more expensive. And now I'm like, do I, do I, why? Why do I do that? You've got to pay $30 to take care of, to take advantage of all those bits you got coming up and down. I get, I get, they got to go somewhere, I guess. I don't even know what I watch on Netflix anymore. Anyway. So yeah, Netflix is expensive. It's trying to be YouTube. It's trying to do all the things. Let's get to personal tech

1:18:01because I bought another iPhone, but it wasn't for me. Okay. Maybe do this, do guess. We bought our 14-year-old son his first iPhone. What model, color, size do you think we got him? Well, this isn't fair because I look at the list of things we're talking about. So I know what you bought him. I don't have a clue. Well, you never know. I don't know what color it is. Okay, maybe you're just rope-a-doping me up. That's right. Yeah, I'm trying to throw you off.

1:18:31It does say in the document iPhone 17. It's fair. Which feels like, I mean, we bought our daughter's 16s when they were the device. I feel like right now, I'm pretty sure the iPhone 17 is the best option to buy at this point. Right? Like, it's the best thing to get for anyone. We did get an iPhone 17 regular. Okay. We did not, I didn't even think about getting an iPhone Air. Like, I didn't even consider that as part of the equation. Would you?

1:19:01No, I wouldn't give a kid an iPhone Air only because children are terrible with, like, battery management type things. And also every once, because this is, is this child a teenager? Yeah. 14, 14, 14. Like, the one camera thing would be a no-go for most teenagers. So, I did have a, sorry, I wanted you to finish, but I did have a fun experience with my daughter. She picked up this iPhone Air yesterday or the day before. And she's like, this is so, so thin. I was like, it's fine. She's like, I know,

1:19:33it feels like you could just break it. I'm like, you super can't break it. Try. And she's like, no, I can't. I was like, try. So, I started to bend it for her. She's like, I'm like, there's no way you can break it. I promise you. Like, Greg Josuehack bent it, like, in an interview or tried to bend it. He, he let, no, he gave it to the people and let them try to do it. And then. That's right. That's right. What's his name? Jerry Rig Everything. Jerry Rig Everything. So much pressure that it required. It's like, she's like, no, but I can hear cracking. I'm like, that's just your knuckles. It's fine.

1:20:00Yeah. So, we got iPhones. We got iPhone 17. And guess what color? I don't even know what colors the iPhone 17 are. There's lavender, sage, mist blue, white, and black.

1:20:13White? No, we did, we did mist blue. It felt like the, you know, unfortunately, he likes different colors. We didn't do black. And so, we went with the blue. Got him a silicone case. What case do you get your kids if you get them an iPhone? I make them buy their own cases at this point. Excuse me. Okay. I should have. I, well, because they want, I would just buy them a silicone case, but they want a clear case that they can put a picture in and they want this and whatever. So. That's fair enough. Well, maybe I'll let him buy his own case if he wants a clear one. We got him a silicone case because just felt like the thing to do.

1:20:44AppleCare on a child's device is kind of a pain in the butt because I bought it through AT&T because the additional line was just easier to add that way and order it. But then AppleCare, you can't buy it when you buy it through AT&T. So, I was going to add it after, which I know you can. But in order to add it on the phone, it has to go like as a request for the parent to approve, like an ask to buy because it's a subscription. AppleCare, I was going to do the annual AppleCare renewal.

1:21:15And I think I approved, like I did approve it. I clicked approve on my iPhone, but I don't know if it's actually approved yet. So, I have to, the AppleCare sign up is a pain in the butt on child devices for that specifically, not bought through Apple. So, I have to figure that out, figure out if I actually bought AppleCare or not. But, yeah, he was very excited. And, of course, I have 1,000 iPhone accessories that he can then choose from. And so, I gave him a MagSafe battery, gave him one of those funny MagSafe backpacks that

1:21:46I did a short on. You can get MagSafe backpacks now. Did you know that? Yes, you went over it a week or two ago. Yeah, that's right. And, but when I gave him the MagSafe battery, I did tell him, my older son has this habit where he just leaves the MagSafe battery on from day, like start of the day. Like, he just puts it on his phone. And so, he just keeps his phone charged until the battery depletes and then he uses the phone. And I told my 14-year-old, listen, don't do that.

1:22:14Don't have the MagSafe battery on there from the beginning of the day. Just put it on when your phone is low and let it charge. And so, you know, I might try to dissuade my oldest son of doing that. We'll see. He might make a clip of this. And if he hears this, then he'll know. But, but yeah, don't put it on there from the beginning. But yeah, it's very exciting. It's a good phone. It's a good camera. So yeah, I have 14. We did 14 for my, for my middle son. And we have one more child to gauge how soon they get a phone. But my daughter's only 10. So we have at least a few years before we have to make that decision. But what, what were your kids' ages when they got their first phone?

1:22:47Well, we've talked about this before. Our girls got phones during COVID. So they didn't get them at a time when they probably would have otherwise. And they both got them at the same time, even though they're 22 months apart. Again, because it was COVID, we wanted them to have the ability to stay connected with friends and that they weren't going to see in person, that kind of thing. So our son, I believe we gave him one when he was, well, we gave him a hand-me-down iPhone 11 Pro. Right, right. Which is the single best value in an Apple product we've ever paid for because it's now been five people's phones.

1:23:18Yes, exactly. But, and it's now obsolete, I think, or vintage or whatever. It is. So I think if I go to get the battery replaced, they'll just actually give me an iPhone 17. Right. But, so I should do that. But our, yeah, I think he got it when he was 13. And then our youngest is 12. He would like one when he turns 13. He would like one when he turned 11, but that was not going to happen. So I don't know. It's too early for me. Everybody gets what everybody needs is the philosophy at our house. And we'll see when he needs one. Yeah, that. And that is just a, I'm sure we have lots of parents listening.

1:23:51It is a push and pull. It's like a lot of our kids' friends got phones way earlier than they did. And that is a tension to manage of like, yes, they did, but they're also 11 and 12. Like, we just don't feel like this is a really, you have an iPad. Do you have an Apple watch? Like, and the Apple watch is another thing where transitioning it from a family set up Apple watch to one that can now be paired to his iPhone was like weird. And so basically had to factory reset it, add it back.

1:24:22Like, Apple needs to like figure that out better. Like the whole transitioning from the iPad Apple watch kid to the kid now has an iPhone and everything needs to talk to that. And also all the screen time settings didn't enable at first. I had to go on the iPhone and actually share across devices, which is a toggle on screen time, which is like, if I mean, during the setup process, I had to sign into my iCloud account because it recognized that that my son's Apple ID was managed by a parent account in a family.

1:24:54And it's like, well, if I did that, you should apply the same screen time settings and assume I want it to sync, I would think. But all of that, that whole setup is a little bit fraught. But maybe, I mean, iOS 27, the screen time architecture is completely updated. I'm going to do a video on it when I actually updated my family devices because I'm not going to do it with the beta. But we'll see. But he's got a phone now. Speaking of, I'm living at the other end of that. I woke up this morning to an email because today is our oldest 18th birthday.

1:25:26That's right. That's why I got an email from Apple. It says that she can now manage their own Apple account, including screen time settings. It says, according to the birthday associated with her account, she's now an adult and she has access to her device settings, including screen time. They are still part of your family sharing group. If asked to buy was turned on for their account, it's still active, which is nice because it means at least my adult child can't just run up by my bill in the app store or whatever. I am rich app for $990. We actually had this conversation briefly yesterday, which was, we should probably put your debit card on your Apple account so that if you're at school and you decide you need some stuff that you're going to pay for, one, you can buy it.

1:26:04And two, I don't really want to see those. I don't want those requests because no, I'm not paying for it. So wait, I'm curious. Does that mean screen time managed by you just gets turned off? They can manage their own. But does that mean it gets turned off automatically or does that mean you turn it off? That's not how that works though, Stephen. Screen time is a thing that can be managed by multiple, like it can just be managed. So like you can have your own screen time and it can be managed. No, I understand that. But like the screen time passcode, like on a child's device, you set it.

1:26:35So the screen time passcode is required to make changes to screen time. Right. But, and they can't change that. Correct. But the person who manages it can. So now she can manage it. So she can change her screen time passcode. You see what I'm saying? All the screen time settings are the same. And she's just now able to manage that. So if you could answer this question sometime. I'm trying to answer this the way Apple would answer this. I know. I feel like I'm in an Apple briefing. Let us know next week. What I'm curious is when she goes into her phone today, can she go to the screen time?

1:27:09And does it say set a screen time passcode? Does it, did it just remove the screen time passcode you might have had set? Like I'm curious the ramifications of that specifically. I don't know, but I will say that yesterday all of the allow changes things said like don't allow and they all say allow now. So it just did that automatically. Yeah, because she's 18. But you didn't take any action on that. No, because she's an adult. No, no, no. I know, I know.

1:27:39But that is very curious. Because technically with two adults, you can, oh no, I guess you can't manage it over iCloud. And anyone can reset their, their passcode with their Apple ID if it's allowed. Right. I mean, so you can, you can disable changes to your Apple account in a child's screen time. And then that just option doesn't appear. Right, right, right. And what I'm saying is like, let's just say, for instance, I want screen time on my phone and I don't want to know the screen time passcode.

1:28:17I'm going to just have my spouse know it. This way I can't be on Instagram for 10 hours a day. Technically you can set that up, but it's all local on the device. Meaning you have to hand your phone to your partner. They enter a screen time passcode that you don't know. And then that passcode is now set. But you can't have someone manage it remotely like you can with a kid's screen time account. Because like I can change the screen time passcode for my kid's devices from my iPhone. Correct.

1:28:47And so you're saying when the birthday hits 18 years old for a kid's device, Apple just shifts that automatically. Well, I don't know. Like I still have the option to change her screen time passcode or stop managing Madison's screen time. What I believe is true is now we're probably both able to do that. But please confirm that because I would really like to know. Sure. Because I just think that is a curious – as much as Apple says like, you know, we don't want to have to do age verification to block people from downloading social media apps.

1:29:20And it's your device and all that kind of stuff. I think it's just interesting that they assume that when your child hits 18, you like – everything gets turned to allow. I mean – This is curious. Now, her app limits still exist on here? Right. But she could probably change that. Yeah. She could just change them or she could just enter the – create a passcode and enter it. Like to be clear, you know, we're a year from that. So my son will turn 18 in April and, you know, we have been talking about like I guess at that point we just stopped managing his screen time, I guess.

1:29:54Like we haven't had like super deep conversations that we assumed. I figured that I would go in and turn off the screen time passcode for his devices. And what it sounds like is, well, I don't have to do anything because when he turns 18, Apple is going to allow him to make the change himself. I'll look at her phone today, but I think that's true. Please text me because I'm very, very curious how that works. Yeah. And, okay, that's fascinating. Well, I'm glad we got there because, yeah, I'm very curious. And also, I would also – maybe we could do it in the bonus episode or how much you want to talk about her feelings about it.

1:30:26You know, does it feel like she's free now? Is it intimidating? I'm curious, you know. I'm just curious that feeling because, man, my son is going to experience that a year from now. So we'll see. Interesting. All right. Well, happy birthday to your daughter. My daughter. Yeah, we're going to talk about Meta Glasses in our bonus episodes. If you want to hear our bonus content, Unintended Feed, Ad Free, Primary Tech Daily, or just support the show, click the link in the show notes. You can support us for $2.50 a month or $25 a year. Get all those member benefits plus our undying gratitude for supporting the show.

1:30:59Thank you for all the five-star reviews this week. Leave us another five-star review. We're very close to 500 five-star reviews in Apple Podcasts. And so let me check real quick. What are we at right now? We are at 486. So we need 14 of you at least to go leave us a five-star rating and review in Apple Podcasts. That would be wonderful this week, and we can celebrate next week. Lexi Savides is going to be the guest host next week. It's going to be a fun episode, so stay tuned. Jason, have a great time on your trip with your family, and let's go record a bonus episode.

1:31:29We'll catch you next week.