883: Unearthing Clues to Reveal How People Lived in Early Mesoamerican Cities - Dr. Verónica Pérez Rodríguez

Welcome and introducing Veronica

0:00Thanks for joining me today for episode 883 of the People Behind the Science podcast. I'm Dr. Marie McNeely, and this week I'm excited to reshare our interview with our guest, Dr. Veronica Perez-Rodriguez. Listeners, Veronica is an archaeologist and anthropologist who is interested in studying people and life in cities over time. She examines how people lived in the islands of the Mixteca Alta in Mexico as early as 300 BC, as well as what brought them to cities,

0:30what made them stay, the trade-offs, and the environmental impacts. And in our conversation, Veronica shares some great stories about her life and science. So get ready to meet another one of our wonderful People Behind the Science. Every day discoveries are made that will change our understanding of the world around us. Dr. Marie McNeely is here to bring you the brilliant minds who are making these discoveries so they can share their incredible stories and take you on an amazing journey. Welcome to People Behind the Science. Hello, everyone, and welcome to the People Behind

1:12the Science podcast. Today, I am delighted to be joined by our guest scientist, Dr. Veronica Perez-Rodriguez. So, Veronica, welcome to the show today. How are you? I'm well, thank you. Well, thank you so much for taking the time to be with us today. We are so excited to learn more about you and your work. But let me first start by telling our listeners a little bit more about who you are and what you do. So, listeners, Veronica is an Associate Professor of Anthropology at the University at Albany, SUNY. She earned her bachelor's degree in anthropology, as well as a

1:44bachelor's degree in linguistics from the University of Texas at El Paso. Veronica, then attended graduate school at the University of Georgia, where she was awarded her PhD in ecological and environmental anthropology. She served on the faculty at Northern Arizona University before joining the faculty at UAlbany in 2013. And in our interview today, Veronica is going to tell us more about her life and science. So, Veronica, we're looking forward to learning about it all. But can you start by telling us what you like to do when you're not doing science?

Reading in Spanish and daily routines

2:15Well, it depends. If I'm with my children, sometimes staying at home and trying to rest is good or watching whatever is PG. And if I can, I try to get them out on a hike or something. And if I'm alone, I honestly like to go for a run or knit or read fiction. Awesome. So we love talking about reading on our show. And I love giving our listeners book recommendations. So that was the perfect segue. So do you have a favorite book that you can recommend for us? I've been reading whatever I can find at my local library. And even though it's upstate New York,

2:48I try to read in Spanish because it's my native language. And I work in English all the time. So I like to just read in Spanish just to take a break. But one book that I've thought in the past, I'm a runner. So I've always liked that Haruki Murakami book of what I talk about when I talk about running. And just different things of fiction. Right now, I'm reading The Treasure Island, which I'm still finding a little surprising that it's supposed to be for children. They were different times, right? Times have changed. Yeah. I try to read it to my son and he's like, that's scary, mother.

3:21So we stopped. And I kept going with the book. Gotcha. Well, wonderful to hear what you've been reading lately. We will add these recommendations to our website for our listeners to find there. And we've talked about life outside of work. So I'd love to

Studying ancient life in Mexican cities

3:34chat about your work next. So Veronica, for people who aren't very familiar with anthropology and maybe your specific work within that field, how do you describe what you do? I'm very interested in people. We are a very strange species. And in particular, I'm really interested in life in cities. We think that the way we live now has always been how you were supposed to live. And the really powerful thing about archaeology and anthropology is that it makes you take a step back and look at how others lived and realize that the way you think the world

4:06works maybe isn't the only way. And the powerful thing about archaeology is that you do that and you multiply it by thousands of years. And in particular, in the last nearly 20 years, I've been really interested in what brought us to cities in the first place. And then once you get to live in a city, what makes you stay there? And what are the trade-offs? And what's the environmental bargains, I guess, that city living puts us in? And I work these issues in a place. It's the highlands of Oaxaca

4:37in this Mixteca region, which if you go there today, it's a very rural community. And they say the biggest expert of the Mixteca right now is its people. A lot of people are not finding economic opportunities. And they move into Mexico City or the U.S. And yet this was a place that was one of those cradles of urbanism and complex societies for thousands of years. So I'm interested to learn how the same region that today sends its people out to find other opportunities. In the past, it was a center of city building and innovation and a place that we think today is like environmentally challenging.

5:13Certainly. And I think working to uncover these stories in the culture of civilizations of the past is absolutely fascinating. So you probably aren't short on motivation, but I'd love to hear a little bit more about some of the things that motivate you. Do you have particular quotes or sayings or just forces that you find really keep you going, Veronica? Well, lately, I think it's my kids. I have brought my children to the field and I like to see their curiosity in the world. And I like it when they see that we are curious about the world and that it's a pathway of life. And I also really love the communities in which I've worked. These are

5:48people that for the most part, they don't want to migrate. They want to figure out how do you make a living here? And the economic system, of course, is very different. It's not the same as being a farmer in the past as now having to compete with global market forces. But there are people who are interested in staying in their communities and valuing their way of life. So to me, it's also very inspiring to make friendships and relationships with the people in the communities that are right next to the site and that also care about the place and that they want to know. And as a Mexican originally, I grew up there and I'm a product of the education there. And we're not really taught

6:24about our history prior to European contact. So a lot of the pre-Hispanic history is not known to us. And the communities in which I work, they want to know. We all want to know what we were prior to being a colony. And that's also a big driver for me. And this is why I also try to make my results available in forms that are reachable and understandable to non-scholars, to non-academics, and also non-English speakers. So I've tried different mediums of communicating my results.

6:55And it's a challenge. And I think that's also what keeps me on my toes and inspired to do what I do. Absolutely. And Veronica, I think that is amazing. And I'd love to chat more maybe about some of the people who inspired you to pursue this path or just had a big impact on you and on your life. So are there people that really rise to the top in your mind as mentors and role models and these inspirational figures?

Family background and choosing archaeology

7:18So my grandparents didn't receive a formal education past second grade or something like that. And in the past of my grandfather, he had been a worker, a peon for one of these excavations by this really famous female archaeologist in the 40s, Eulalia Guzman, who was back then excavating in Guerrero, looking for, I think, the remains of Cautemo, one of the last Latwani crew of the Asterix. And when I would go visit them, we would always go to sites, archaeological sites. So they would take me to Iwaka or Cholula. So I've always was very interested. At the same time, when I declared that

7:52I wanted to become an archaeologist, I will be really frank, my family was not very happy with it. And in particular, my grandfather, he said, I did hard labor all my life. Why would you go into something? It's hard labor. But as time progressed, and as I move forward in my studies, and then later on my career, they understood that it's a little different. I don't move as much dirt as one of the workers does. But I love archaeology because it's physical. And at the same time, it's cerebral, you know, it's intellectual. And they came to respect that. And when I told them I was going into

8:25archaeology, they were not happy. But they said, we don't care if you decide to sweep streets, just do it well. So there's always been that idea of do whatever it is to do it well. And they've come around. So they're drivers. And at the same time, they were also the first critics.

8:41That sounds awful. But I really had to explain archaeology and my love of it to them. And I would invite them to field situations. But if I ever invited my mother in the field, that's when we would encounter like a rattlesnake or something. Things that never happen. I'm alone. But if I invite a parent, this is what happens. So they have an idea that it's dangerous. But movies haven't been kind to archaeology. But they are my drivers, because at the same time, I had to prove that I was not making a mistake with my life.

9:13Absolutely. Putting the pressure on it sounds like from an early age. Oh, that sounds so inspiring. Well, wonderful to hear about this grandfather of yours, who really inspired you to pursue that field of archaeology. And I love this vision of you visiting these archaeological sites from a young age. So can you tell us when did you make that decision that this was something that you wanted to pursue? As long as I can remember. I was a Montessori kid. And I remember in elementary, you could write papers about things that interest you. So I kind of remember like somewhere in fourth grade, wanting to write

9:46papers about the Phoenicians. But at the same time, it's something that you tell your kid, oh, it's so cute. I'm sure you'll grow out of it. And I didn't. Gotcha. And did you know then how you would get there? Did you have an idea of what the path looks like? No, absolutely not. As a Mexican person, if you want to go into archaeology, it seems like you can only do Mexican archaeology. You don't hear a lot about Mexican archaeologists coming to the US, for example, to study Cahokia. There are some realities about the power dynamics of your passport.

10:17And back then, I did not want to study Mesoamerican archaeology or Mexico. I was interested in the old world. But, you know, realities of cost and where your passport can take you. These paths just kept opening up in Mexico and Oaxaca. My family is from Oaxaca, my father's family. So there were some opportunities that for us were more approachable. But then I just fell in love with the place. And it's also a place where I happened to be really lucky because my family comes from a place where you can really study the rise of urbanism in the world.

10:49Absolutely. And we mentioned in our introduction that you went to the University of Texas, El Paso for undergrad. What was that experience like for you? It was great. And people don't realize that Cuartes and El Paso is basically like one big city. So I lived with my parents. And then it used to take an hour of standing online across the border to cross the border. And then I would go to class. So you just have to wake up earlier and get to class. And then at the end of my school day, I would just drive back over the border back home.

11:19And UTEP, I'm really grateful. I love that program. They had this program for those of us kids on the border. So you can pay in-state tuition as a Mexican citizen on the Juarez side that you would pay like in-state tuition. And I know that I also applied and got a bit of a scholarship. We need the Juarez scholarship. And UTEP, even today, is like a Latino serving institution. It was approachable. It was great. And I had this great professor, John Peterson. So I had like really supportive professors there. So it was a life changer for me.

11:51Absolutely. And were you able to get out and do fieldwork there as an undergraduate student?

Undergraduate fieldwork in West Texas

11:55I did. And for the first time, I did fieldwork looking at a presidio site in San Elisario in West Texas. So for the first time, it opened up like, oh, you could do archaeology on the U.S. side. There's all these sites in the Southwest. So my professor would do these field trips on like to New Mexico. So I started to learn a little bit past Mesoamerica. And it was great. I knew that there were also field schools. Some of my classmates were going to field schools like in Ireland or Italy and all these things. At that point, that was beyond my financial reach. So I never pursued that.

12:28But one of my professors said, I know some researchers down in Oaxaca. Why don't you go and work with them and get some school credit, writing some papers? And that kind of got me in the field for the first time in Mesoamerica. And again, it was a very powerful experience to see what it is day in, day out. And I loved it. Certainly. Well, it sounds like a wonderful experience. And then can you tell us then next how you made that decision to go to graduate school? Well, whereas in the U.S., there is cultural resource management as an option for archaeologists.

13:00In Mexico, it's more through INA. Archaeological resources are investigated and cared for through this National Institute of Anthropology and History. And it seems, you know, rather centralized and you had to be trained. Sometimes most of the training is out of certain schools out of Mexico City. And I wasn't trained there. And in those visits to Oaxaca, I met who would be my future advisor, Dr. Steve Kowleski in Georgia. And he had been working in Oaxaca and the rise of social complexity there. And I don't know, it just seemed like the next step. So I did it.

13:32Absolutely. So then what was your experience like there at the University of Georgia?

Graduate school at the University of Georgia

13:36It was very overwhelming at first because it was my first time being fully in the U.S. and having to read a lot in theoretical text, everything in English. So I definitely had that imposter syndrome mixed in with some culture clash and some linguistic. I felt like my English was not up to par. I mean, I had struggled with the GRE and I still think it's a really flawed instrument. So at first it was challenging. I had a great cohort and we all would help each other. And

14:07that was really helpful to get through this. And then after a while, I started getting into my groove and just kind of going through the classes. It was really interesting to me that because it was a program that is not just anthropology, it's ecological and environmental anthro. So it really expanded my understanding of ecology and ecological theory as applied in anthropology. And it's a multi-subfield department. So it expanded my view. I also had never thought even about like the South or anything. And so I got to taste some really good food. Georgia traveled around quite a bit. I'll be

14:41really honest. It was the first time I've dealt with like a lot of humidity and trees because I grew up in the desert. So I'm very used to like, you can see the horizon. And so I remember thinking it's such strange. As a runner, again, I always associated running in the woods, like something scary. So I don't know, it was a very powerful experience personally and also professionally. And I just had the best advisor that anybody could ever hope for. And the poor guy can't get rid of me. He still advises me and I still ask questions. So I was very fortunate as well. And he pushed me

15:15to excel, good research and if something didn't fly, he was very direct and strict. And apparently I'm good with that. Oh, that's awesome. Veronica, it sounds like you had a great experience then through your academic training. Can you tell us then how you ended up there all the way in New York at UAlmany? Well, UAlmany has a lot of colleagues that work in Mesoamerica. I have colleagues that work Mesoamerican languages, Maya and Triqui language. And there's a couple of sociocultural anthropologists that work also in Mesoamerica and a couple of archaeologists that work. The Maryland Mass in

15:49the Maya area and Roberts and Swag in the Sokonusco region. So there's an Institute of Mesoamerican Studies and they were looking for another Mesoamerican archaeologist. There was also like this program, I think a SUNY-wide program of trying to diversify the faculty across the state. And I was kind of sought out. And so they contacted me. At that point, I was working in Northern Arizona and I was approached about it and I was interested. There is a focus here in Mesoamerica and it's nice

16:19to have a community of scholars. And actually right now I am serving as the director of the Institute of Mesoamerican Studies. Phenomenal. Well, congratulations. Thank you. We'll see if I can pull it off. I think you're doing great already. Well, it sounds like you've got a wonderful environment there at UAlmany. So can you dig into a little bit more detail, Veronica, and tell us about one of the current projects that you're working on that you are so excited about?

Excavating Cerro Jasmin and ancient pottery

16:44Well, right now I'm waiting to hear on some grants. For the last 12 years, I've been working at the site of Cerro Jasmin and it is this huge mountain on the northwest edge of the Nautixlan Valley. And here we have the development of an urban society by around 300 BC. So for a couple of years, we mapped the site. It's a really large site. And then after that, I obtained another NSF grant to excavate. So I've been excavating different parts of the city to learn how people

17:15live there and get a really good handle on the chronology of when the city was built and lived in and expanded or contracted or reoccupied. The city does seem to have like this kind of fluctuation of occupation between 300 BC and up to like the 14th, 15th century. But my work has focused on those first 600 years of occupation. And I've been looking at how living in the cities impacts your way of life in terms of your health and your diet and your occupations. And I've also been looking at

17:49different sectors of the city to see if different activities happen in different sectors. So one of those hallmarks of urbanism, I guess, is that the sites, these settlements are internally specialized. So there's different sectors of the city for different things. So looking at different parts of the city, we found that near the hilltop for a while, there was some feasting. Later on, they focus on expanding a public area, kind of more accessible further down northern slope, and trying to figure out, you know, what are the different strategies that the city and its rulership engaged in to keep the

18:23population there. And there does seem to be a period of somewhat of a demise after 300 AD. And for the next nearly 8 to 1000 years, there were people there, but it was not such a center of growth like it had been. I'm also looking in the future with some colleagues looking at how some environmental fluctuations impacted the population up here, and how people reacted to rapid climate change. So different lines of research. And working on Cerro Jasmin, I started getting more into the ceramics

18:57that we thought were of a certain time period. And now it turns out that they're earlier than thought out. I've also been trying to figure out where they're making different types of pottery, and trying to look at nearby communities that have potters today. And pottery making kind of has to compete with aluminum and metal and plastic now. So traditional pottery making is somewhat endangered in the region. So two years ago, I got a National Geographic grant to do some ethnographic and ethno-archaeological work at the nearby town of Santo Domingo, Tonaltepec, which is the nearest

19:33community to Cerro Jasmin that still does pottery. And we recorded how pottery was made and the knowledge, the ecological knowledge, and also the embodied practice of how do you sit, how do you build a jar, or how do you make a comal happen? And I've been working on getting clay samples from there to compare them to our archaeological claves to see if any of the pottery at the ancient city may have come from the area that is now this pottery making town. So just from one city, you can get to so many directions of research. So we've been doing the urbanism and the questions

20:05of how urbanism impacts your health and your life, but also trying to get at the nitty gritty of where they're getting their pottery from. Absolutely. I love the scope. And I think it's so cool that you get a window into the past all the way back to 300 BC, which is just mind-blowing to me. I love archaeology. So can you tell us, has there been something that was maybe particularly surprising or something unexpected that you've discovered about these ancient civilizations? I think I teach an urbanism class here in New Albany. And when I start the semester, I always ask students, what's the city like? And we have these ideas that honestly are kind of limited.

20:41Being so close to New York City, I think students expect skyscrapers and a lot of people. But we never think of cities as food producers. And I think that's because we carry in us these really Western models of what cities are supposed to be like. But when you look at cities in ancient Mesoamerica and in the Americas in general, in the world, food production in cities is not a new hipster thing to do. It's what makes sense. So I think the more we look into urbanism, the more we see that they were

21:12agricultural producers, that there are green spaces within cities, and they probably impacted positively on people's ways of life, but also that they were sources of food, of income, of diversity. So I think that's been one of the game changers in my mind. We underestimate how much food has to or should be produced in cities to keep them going. And for ancient Mesoamericans, this was just the way you do cities. Certainly. Well, it sounds like we could learn quite a bit then from some of these ancient civilizations in terms of how to make our cities more sustainable. And I imagine in studying

21:48these sorts of questions and topics, you encounter quite a few challenges because unfortunately, you don't have that time machine to take you back to see what life was like then. So I love talking about the challenges and walking through some of the difficult situations that scientists have to go through in their careers, because I think people don't often get to hear these stories. So Veronica, do you have an example from your own life and career of a challenging time that you experienced or a major failure that you had that you can share with us?

Facing hostility in the field

22:14There's been a couple. I'm Mexican, like I said, my family's from Oaxaca, but I did grow up on the border and I am kind of taller. And for Mexican standards, I'm blonde. There's a term now that's like white. So I was working in this community. I was doing my dissertation, my excavation. I was living with a family who I'm very close with and everything was going well. And I started, I guess, in September and Christmas came around. So a lot of the people that are from the community, but live outside of it, came to spend Christmas with their families. And they learned of my presence there and they were

22:47really weary of my presence there. They said that obviously I was probably a gringa and that I was probably there to exploit the town in some way. And it didn't kind of go well. Then I was asked to come to this Asamblea and I did. And I came in with my whole crew and there were a lot of local people, but they asked us to come in with all our artifacts. And at that point, it was boxes and boxes of them. And there had been like some misunderstanding. People think that archaeology is basically looting. And unfortunately, TV shows don't help. So there was a moment there where they didn't want to let us

23:21out of the hall. Oh, no. It was like the Municipio building. They wanted us to surrender all the artifacts. And I explained to them that I had a permit that the artifacts are under my care by federal law and that I was not going to surrender the artifacts. They were not analyzed and that I couldn't. I mean, just legally could not. And fortunately, the people in the community who knew me, who worked for me, they had seen that I was not there for nefarious reasons. They backed me up and they helped me out. But it took a series of negotiations of going back to Oaxaca City, to the offices of the

23:54National Institute of Ina, where basically somebody had to tell them, yes, she's a researcher. I was very young, you know, and also they didn't think that I looked like a doctor. I didn't look like the archaeologist. They thought I looked like a foreigner. And at this point, it really honestly, it sounds awful, because it was like this committee of mostly guys that had been in Mexico City, and they thought I was taking advantage of the community. They had to go there and the director of Centro Ina Oaxaca, who was also another man. Had to explain to them that, yes, I was an archaeologist, that, yes, I had permits. And he

24:27kind of even did really something very curious, but at the same time, very smart. He recounted all like my genealogy, like who I was, who I was the daughter of, that I was from Oaxaca, that I was Mexican. And then also recounted my academic genealogy, who my professor was. And it was a hard thing. I remember kind of crying a lot in private after that, because it felt really sexist to have this one guy kind of vouch for me that I am. But at the same time, I realized that I was very young, and I don't look the part of a doctor in archaeology. And then also, I'm taller, I drive. I remember it

25:04was like, she drives. And women in this part of the world, more and more, they're starting to drive. But also, it was scary. That was my first project. And to surrender my artifacts to a group that just doesn't believe that you're there for the right reasons was scary at the time. So that was one of the challenges. Things kind of smoothed over. And after that, they invited me to keep working in the community. And it helped that I lived there. And I kind of made family ties with people there. In archaeology, a lot of times you live in these places for months or years. And that was the

25:34challenge. And then more recently, I think also as my career has progressed, that project that I was telling you about that I wanted to look at the nearby pottery making town of Tanatepec. I did have like a senior researcher try to block me getting a grant, because he felt that he had worked there decades ago, and that was his territory. In retrospect, I don't know if I should have asked permission, because it feels rather colonialist to own communities. But there are some things about when you ruffle feathers as you're doing research. But what led me to that community was the research

26:07question I never wanted to impose on somebody's research territory. And so sometimes there's some challenges there in archaeology. People would like to think that the most challenging thing is like being out in the elements, but that's actually the good part. You get to be in nature. You get to hike for an hour before you get to your field site. And I absolutely love that and miss that when I'm out there. Well, Veronica, you brought up so many important issues in your stories here. And it is unfortunate that you had to really go those extra steps to go that extra mile to be accepted

26:37in the communities you were working in. And also just it sounds like in your profession in general, which I'm glad to see in some cases, there are things moving in the right direction. Some of these changes are being made so that the culture is more accepting. But I think these are some huge challenges. So for people who are going through this themselves, maybe, do you have advice or what really helped you make it through these difficult situations? I must say my family is really helpful in terms of sometimes you just have to like buckle in and press on. And a lot of times I had moments of doubt and the imposter syndrome, because you have to do

27:10everything in another language. And even today, like I've sent in manuscripts for publication and they say, you know, like the grammar is weird. It's my second language. I'd like to see you publishing like that instead. So just to kind of press on and like this amount of grit or just you do what you can with what you have. And there's moments of doubt, but you can doubt with your friends and with your family. But in the public, then you just have to own up to the yes, I'm the doctor. Yes, I'm the archaeologist. It's a little funny. And after a while, when I come into some places, sometimes if

27:43there's like a male colleague or a student, sometimes I'll direct to him the conversation. I'm like, no, no, no, it's with me. I will say that getting older helps because now I look older. So they figure it's probably that lady. The great hairs give credibility. Yes. I mean, it's awful. So just press on and believe in yourself, even if you're not believing in yourself. Sometimes you have to bluff a little, just keep going. And I don't know, sometimes I feel like I'm a very fortunate person

28:13and just the strength of friends and family. Kind of like when I was mentioning, when I was struggling in Georgia, I had a cohort of friends and we came to each other's aid. And just kind of being a good colleague, I think goes a long way. Being a decent human being sounds funny, but it's important to be decent. Definitely. Well, I think you really emphasize this importance of building that network of support around you, which I think is so important. And we really appreciate you being candid about these difficult times, but I don't just want to focus on the negatives. So Veronica, I'd love to talk about your successes as well. Do you have a favorite one you'd like to share with

28:46us? Well, recently with that project of the pottery, we did all these interviews. There was a bit of a challenge. There were some seeds there against us kind of planted before we got there. But once we started getting footage of these women, mostly women doing the pottery, I realized that we were the first people to record systematically with video. How do you make a pot of this sort? Or how do you make a comal? How do you make this? And a lot of times pottery making in the community, sometimes it's frowned upon. It's working in the dirt. It's like dirty work. But sometimes you're saying,

29:20I come here with an NGO grant. I want to know your knowledge. It's important. We ended up making a documentary. I went back with my kids and with everybody. And we projected the documentary and the community was there and the authorities and school kids. And they responded really positively to it. They wanted to share it. So I ended up honestly putting it on YouTube. And I've noticed that since then, there's been a lot of interest in pottery making in that community. There's been talk about making these talleres or like workshops that the young kids learn how to make it. And there's been

29:54other projects from other NGOs. And I guess it's like a sort of two sides. I don't know if it's because that's not the right way to say it in English. But anyway, that that could come with some good and some bad. But at the same time, I think that it has exalted in Altecido, the craft of pottery making there. And I'd like to think that we had some doing in there. We also did a survey, an archaeological survey, and we recorded, you know, where the clay sources are from and we're chemically characterizing them and mapping them. And it seems that this is a pottery making

30:27community for centuries, if not longer, for thousands of years. And I'd like to think that as they're competing against plastics and other things, this is a tool to say what you do is valuable and that maybe we shouldn't be all eating out of plastic and that this knowledge is worth sharing and passing on. So that actually felt really worthy of what we did.

Documenting traditional women pottery makers

30:49Absolutely. I think this project is amazing. And I think you're absolutely right, sort of giving validity to this craft that has been passed down through the generations for hundreds of years is really valuable to the community and to the people and to kind of keeping the enthusiasm for it alive for generations to come. And in particular, it's been a craft for women. So once I started interviewing, these things came up saying, you know, my children ate because of this pottery. They went to school because of this pottery. And that's one of those communities that, again, it's losing a lot of people to migration,

31:19a lot of people in Mexico City. And when I asked them, once you're in Mexico City, can you make pottery? And they said, no, it's like the situated knowledge of where the clay sources are and where things are. But at the same time, a lot of these families then send their kids to spend summers with grandparents back in Tonaltepec. And they're talking about it, well, maybe like these summer camp resorts, which is not something that is done in Mexico. But the idea is using those summers that those kids are back in their home communities, then to pass on this knowledge and to value it. And it's been such an empowering craft for women. It's very powerful to see that, to record that and to write

31:53about it as well. That is so cool, Veronica. And thank you for sharing one of these amazing successes that you've had. And we've touched on some of the different places that your science has taken you. And I think this is a wonderful aspect of the career that people may not realize as they're entering is a big part of it. So when you think back on all the places you've gone for, whether it was fieldwork, conferences or to work with collaborators or for training, what is the most memorable place that your science has taken you? There's been a couple of things. I mean, in terms of conferences, I like that in academia, you get to talk

32:25to people from across the world. I had a former, he was a student, a Japanese student that came to Mexico because he always was interested in Mexico. And he worked in some of my projects. And then eventually, he made it back to Japan. And he's an archaeologist there in the island of Kikaijima. And a couple of years ago, the World Archaeological Congress was held in Kyoto. So we went there and met up with Nobu. Nobu is my colleague now. And it was great to see how archaeology can be so universal. So now he's doing archaeology in Japan. And we are all facing the importance of households and understanding what

33:00happens in all societies at the household level, because you can really see the impact of different socio-political systems. So he's excavating houses in Kikaijima. And at that point, I was continuing on doing work in Cerro Hasmin. And at the same time, we can talk to each other about excavating homes and households. And it was very fortunate to see Japan. I was very impressed. And I'm also a baseball fan. So I went to a baseball game and it was great. Oh, wow. I don't know. I like the universality of archaeology. And a conference like the World Archaeological

33:31Conference really sets that out. And you can talk to scholars working in all parts of the world. And I'd like to think that you can drop me in the middle of, I don't know, Mongolia, and I can do archaeology because there are certain tools and the questions about humanity are kind of universal. Definitely. I think that's one of the things that I love about science is it does build these bridges between people and cultures. And I think that is one of the great aspects of being in the field. Yeah. And then another aspect, I was part of a doctoral committee out of the Sorbonne. And she was about to defend, but it kind of coincided with the due date of my second child.

34:07Oh, no. And I remember asking her, hey, can you postpone your defense like a month and a half and I'll be there. And I did it. Like we went with my husband and my kid and everybody to the defense and my six week old to Paris for defense. And then at the same time, I thought, am I crazy? I'd work so hard. The dissertation was so high quality and I wanted to be there. And at the same time, I realized that I have a newborn. So sometimes, I don't know, it was interesting to fly with a

34:39six week old and a four year old for the sake of a defense. But at the same time, I think I like the fact that my kids are seeing that science matters and that the world is bigger than the community you grew up in. So they're curious. So that was always so, so very eye opening. And I kind of wanted to show that hopefully you can have a kid and your research doesn't stop. It changes though, but it doesn't stop. Well, I'm sure it was so meaningful for the student to have you there for the defense, because I know that committee is just such a great source of support.

35:10Yeah. To me, it was interesting to see how another country does defenses. So it was good. It was interesting. I can understand French mostly, but then I would respond in Spanish. And it was great. It was nice to see it and to be part of it. Oh, so cool. And you've hinted throughout our conversation at some of these amazing people you've been able to work with over the years. And I think that's not often how scientists are portrayed. And you talked about some of the stereotype issues that you've faced in your own experiences in science. And I think people just have these preconceived ideas about what scientists are like and what life as a scientist is like. And we try to break these on our show by

35:43talking about some of these human moments and just showcasing the diversity of senses of humor and creativity and just personalities of scientists. So do you have a story or an example, Veronica, that you can share with us of this human side of science from your own experiences? Well, archaeology is a field-based science. That means you live with people. So I think social skills are important as much as book smarts, but also some street smarts and some decency. I really liked,

36:15over the years, I've been able to assemble like a dream team of people that I like to work with. And I try to get on my projects. But really, you learn from people. It's interesting because you're working there, you're sometimes exhausted, or you've got rained on and you come in with mud into the house and you're cold. I work in the Highlands. So people think it's warm, but sometimes you're really cold up there. So sometimes it goes a long way when people can laugh at themselves and keep a sense of humor. And if a person is nice enough that when you come into the field side, just make a big

36:45pot of coffee for everybody or something warm for everybody or adapt, it goes a long way. And then just being able to sometimes just relax around each other. And with it, of course, you're interested in collecting good data, right? As always, it has to be like the data cannot suffer. But at the same time, you'll be able to just relax and talk to your colleagues as fellow humans. And it's been really helpful to have good people around. But as far as like a funny one, I'm not sure you encounter so many weird little things and they see you at your best and at your worst.

37:19I'm just really kind of grateful with my fellow archaeologists and their good humor and their flexibility at working with me. Absolutely. So are there any field traditions that have sprung up that your dream team does when they go out together? A lot of times I've taken my kids to the field. So for the first time ever, they're living with children. It is impossible to childproof an archaeological field, house and lab. But I do thank them for trying to like keep the really sharp artifacts kind of up on the roof or that sort of

37:50right. And then we check out what's really big on Sundays is barbacoa. It's like this goat or sheep pit roasted for overnight. So Sunday, you go to the market, you buy your veggies and stuff and have some barbacoa together. It just forms into like a little community. We always try to throw a party at the end of the field season. And lately, they've been somewhat kid friendly. So they include piñatas and whatnot. But I'm kind of thankful that they're flexible because now they're having to go to the field with me and kids. And for them, it's eye opening. I almost think that they're never probably

38:22going to reproduce because of me. I'm sure your kids are lovely. Yeah, they are. But they are children. And I think I look back when I was in my 20s and never had children on my mind. Like we would wake up and they would wake up later. And they're like, why are you up at six on a Sunday? I'm like, well, because the kid is up and I have no choice. They want breakfast. Yeah. They want breakfast. For them, it doesn't matter if I'm not going to go up the hill. So it's eye opening. But at the same time, it's been interesting. And it kind of tells me who is like a decent human being to work

38:54with. So it's like the great leveler. Certainly. Well, it sounds like you've had so many wonderful experiences working with your colleague in the field. And you're all answering some really fascinating questions. And I imagine there are barriers, Veronica, standing between you and being able to answer all of your dream research questions. So if we were to get rid of everything standing in your way, funding was not an issue, staff, technology, feasibility. What is the one question you would most want to answer? Well, across Mesoamerica or across my part of Oaxaca, something

39:26happened kind of at the end of a terminal formative around like 300 AD. And I think I would love to do more work in terms of paleoenvironmental reconstruction for that time period. Also, the end of the classic period marks another period of transition. So being able to really map that out in terms of what is the environment acting like back then and then how people reacted to it at different levels. Yeah, I would love to be in the field every year or all year or most of the year and keep analyzing because I think that's the question of the moment, right? How are we going to react to climate change? And in a

40:01way, we can see other examples of when this has happened before at different scales, a much different scale, but see what people did to survive or to adapt or to keep moving on. And I'm also really interested in food production and agriculture. The communities I work with are terraced. And I would love to get more of a handle of what were they being used for, these green spaces, these terraces, these really narrow little places that sometimes are a meter wide that I don't think they were wide enough to have a house in. But I think that they were, what were they farming? What

40:34are the gardens like? How do you feed people of tens of thousands up here in the highlands where today we cannot keep communities of like over 500 people here sometimes? So that would be to me the question. And being there over the years, I think there's people in these communities that want to know, how do we make life thrive here? Places are struggling today economically and also environmentally because the erosion in the region where I work is really quite dire. So yeah, I would like to know how did these communities thrive? How do you make cities thrive for a long time in this

41:08environment or in any environment? Absolutely. Well, Veronica, I think this is a critical question and I'm so glad you drew these important parallels with the research that you're doing and the modern world and how we can kind of learn from the past to help our own selves. So I think that is critically important right now. And we've shared so much during our conversation today. I'd love to ask you for one more thing, and that is advice that our listeners can apply to their own lives or science. So what is the most helpful piece of advice you've ever received? Sometimes it really pays to be an optimist. I think

41:41I was hinting to it earlier in terms of sometimes you have to bluff your way through it. Then everybody gets doubt, but don't let that stop you. Just keep moving forward and hopefully something will turn up. And the other thing I always think back on what my parents said, we don't care what you do if you're like a street sweeper. Just do it well. So whatever you do, try to do it well. Well, I think this is wonderful advice for our listeners. Veronica, is there any last piece of advice or a last message of inspiration you would like to leave everybody with at the end of our

42:12conversation today? I'd like to say something in terms of science. Sometimes archaeologists, we are told that we're not scientists. I've been told that I've been in parties. It's like, no, but NSF doesn't fund archaeology. And I'm like, oh, yes. Yes, they do. Let me show you my grant. Yes. Yes. And at the same time, as an anthropologist, you realize that this paradigm of science is this Western construct, right? And that other people, other societies in the past and the present have other ways of understanding reality and experiencing it. But at the same time, I value and I love science

42:45because you don't have to like it, but the evidence is the evidence. And that just seems so revolutionary these days, which is sad. But we have to think of science as something bigger than that. You don't have to look like this lab coat wearing person. I think a lot of other communities, indigenous communities have been observing the natural world and have been making observations and creating like a body of knowledge based on direct observation. And we also think still that

43:16indigenous people don't have science. And I think I would like to cast the net wider in terms what is science. They're looking at the natural world and they're making observations. And sometimes you're trying things out. So, yeah, we are scientists and other people, too, are scientists and they have knowledge that needs to be valued, even if it's not generated by people with PhDs or people in academic jobs. Certainly. Well, Veronica, I'm so glad you brought this up. And I think it's a wonderful note for us to end our conversation on today. And if our listeners are intrigued and they want to learn more about you

43:49and the phenomenal research that you're doing, what is the best way for them to do so? Well, there's the UAlbany Anthropology webpage and there's my faculty webpage. And I also keep another webpage. And I know this is a mouthful. It's vpererodriguezarcheologist.wordpress.com. And the webpage, I think, has a link to the video, the YouTube video. Excellent. Well, listeners, definitely check out those websites. Definitely check out that YouTube video as well. It's awesome. And Veronica, thank you so much for joining us on the show today.

44:20Thank you. Thanks for inviting me. Well, it was a pleasure to chat with you. We've learned so much. And listeners, it's been great to have you here with us as well. We'll see you next time on another episode of People Behind the Science.