882: Examining How Environmental Exposures Shape Children's Health - Dr. Erica Walker

Welcome and introductions

0:00Hey everyone, this is Dr. Marie McNeely, welcoming you to episode 882 of the People Behind the Science podcast. Today I am joined by our guest, Dr. Erica Walker. And listeners, if you want to learn more about our show, check out some of our past episodes, find our recommended book list and more. You can visit us at peoplebehindthescience.com. And we have an excellent episode for you today. So I hope you're ready to meet another one of our remarkable people behind the science.

0:31Every day discoveries are made that will change our understanding of the world around us. Dr. Marie McNeely is here to bring you the brilliant minds who are making these discoveries so they can share their incredible stories and take you on an amazing journey. Welcome to People Behind the Science.

0:54Hello, everyone, and welcome to People Behind the Science. Today I am thrilled to be speaking with our guest researcher, Dr. Erica Walker. So, Erica, welcome to the show today. How are you? I'm fine. Thank you so much for having me on today. And I'm very good. I'm very excited about this interview. Well, we are so happy to have you here with us. And I'm looking forward to learning more about you and the wonderful work that you do. But first, let me tell our listeners a little bit more about you and how you got to where you are today. So listeners, Erica is the RGSS

1:27Assistant Professor of Epidemiology at the Brown University School of Public Health. She received her bachelor's degree in math and economics from Simmons University, her master's degree in environmental economics and urban planning from Tufts University, and her doctorate degree in environmental health from the Harvard T.H. Chan School of Public Health. Afterwards, Erica conducted postdoctoral research at UConn Health and the Boston University School of Public Health before joining the faculty there at Brown, where she is today. And Erica, we're looking forward to learning more about you, of course, as a scientist, but also more about

2:01your life outside of science. So can you share with us, how do you like to spend your time when you're not very busy doing science?

Pottery as a creative outlet

2:09I just love doing everything. So I'm a runner. I love running. So that is such a stress reliever. It keeps me healthy. So I love going on long runs. But I am now working to learn how to become a ceramicist. So in my free time, I really like to do pottery. So I have a two-bedroom condo. I've converted one of the bedrooms into a studio. So I love at the end of the day, after all of the emails, the student requests, the research, I like to go into my now studio and

2:41just really lose myself and clay. It's really relaxing and rewarding. Oh, that is amazing. So what kinds of things do you make? You know, it's funny because it was a learning process. I first learned how to build, like there's a hand building in ceramics. So I learned how to hand build stock. Then I learned how to use the pottery wheel. And recently I found these really old vintage slip casting molds. So I've been learning how to do slip casting as well. So just housewares, plates, mugs, cups, bowls. But

3:14I'm trying to challenge myself. I'm trying to make a lamp. My whole challenge for the fall is, can I make a lamp? I think you can do it.

3:23I love challenges. I love challenges. Well, I love that you have this creative outlet in ceramics and pottery. I think that's amazing. And I think that is absolutely a wonderful way to unwind after a busy day in the lab and a busy day in the office working with students. And I'd love to talk a little bit more about the work that you do. So Erica, how do you describe your work to someone who is outside of your field or maybe outside of science altogether?

Environmental health research

3:47I guess on paper, I am an environmental epidemiologist and I'm an exposure scientist, but I like to say I do all kinds of science. The title has evolved over time, but I used to say I was a ride share scientist, a storm chasing scientist, an infrastructure building scientist, a suggestion box scientist. So I feel like I'm a scientist, but I want my ears and my resources. I want everything to be pointed directly towards the problems that matter,

4:18the problems that need to be solved and the people who we tend to overlook. So I like to always have my eyes open, ears on the ground and just work on problems that matter. Absolutely. And I think working towards solving these big problems and keeping in mind the human impact of the work that you're doing can be really motivational for scientists. But I love getting little quotes and sayings and things that my listeners and I can use to keep ourselves motivated as we go through our days. So do you have a favorite quote or a saying, Erica, that really

4:51motivates you or that really resonates? One of my favorite points is a guy by the name of Rainier Maria Rilke. And he has a poem that's called, I love these dark hours of my being. And it's just a poem where he's focusing in on himself and sort of reflecting, deepening his awareness about the world around him. And then he's thinking and he gets to this point where he has this revelation. So there's a line in the poem that says, then the knowing comes and I can open

5:22to another life that's wide and timeless. And I love that because it came from a point of reflection. And I think as scientists, we need to do a lot of reflection. But through that reflection, you're opening yourself up to this other opportunity that's wide and timeless. And I just love that because for me, that is the essence of science, good science. And so I just love that because it's optimistic, it's hopeful, and it comes as a result of deep reflection. Oh, absolutely. Well, Erica, I'd never heard this poem before. I think it is beautiful and

5:55wonderful for science because you're absolutely right. I think sometimes science is sort of go, go, go, and you're always doing things, but stopping and thinking and reflecting is also so critical for making progress. Yes, absolutely.

Mentors and reviewer feedback

6:07So let's talk a little bit about some of the people who might have helped you make progress along the course of your career. Do you have any particular role models or mentors or people who've looked up to? Yes, I really am thankful for people like my master's thesis advisor. Her name is Dr. Mary Davis at Tufts University, who was the first person that told me that I can't write.

6:30And like my advisor, when I was at Harvard T.H. Chan School of Public Health, her name was Francine Layden, who constantly pushed me to improve. So those are specific examples. But really, it's anybody from like a random person on the subway or bus to somebody that you're talking to in line at the grocery store. I've loved talking to people that make me better as a researcher, as a human being. And I love people who love and respect me enough to tell me the truth.

7:01I don't want to go through life blind. I want to go through the life informed. I want to go through life aware. So those are two specific examples. But I don't care who it is. I love people that reach out and love me and respect me enough to tell me the truth about myself. And I love people that are open about their shortcomings and want to improve and believe in this concept of like the iterative process. We get better with each iteration of ourselves. So it doesn't matter who it is. I just look up to people like that. And I love being surrounded by people like that.

7:33Well, I think this is wonderful. And I will say I had the you can't write conversation with angry reviewer number two on my first submitted manuscript. So So I intentionally submit papers to journals that are outside of my league. Because for me, it's like that reviewer to feedback. I have gotten some of the best research ideas from no's, from rejections, from failures, from harsh feedback. As a lab, it's a strategy. We literally submit papers to journals that we have no business submitting to just to get that feedback.

8:06Oh, absolutely. And it hurts, I think, at the time. But if you take a moment to sit with it, you're like, yeah, they're right. Yeah. And like that quote in that point, then the knowing comes and then you can redirect yourself to possibilities that are wide and timeless. I think we tend to look at failures or rejections or harsh reviewer to comments as the end of the world. But it's a subtle nod, or sometimes not so subtle nod towards the directions we should be facing.

From noisy neighbors to public health

8:32Definitely. So let's talk a little bit more about your journey in this iterative process that you went through yourself to become a scientist. So Erica, when you look back, can you remember the first time that you started getting interested in science and thinking about the world from a scientific perspective? Yes. Because I grew up in a household of conspiracy theorists. So everything was a bigger conspiracy from the food that we eat to the places we live. So I think just from that home environment of

9:04growing up with a mom and a dad with conspiracy theorists, I think just kind of questioning everything has played a deep role in my life today. But honestly speaking, when I decided to become an adult and leave home and set out on my own, I didn't never thought I would be a scientist. I never thought I would be talking about behind the science. I wanted to be an artist. I wanted to be a furniture maker. I wanted to find books. I wanted to be a bookbinder. I wanted to be an artist. And it was because of a spat with some upstairs neighbors who were really, really, really loud. And me sort

9:37of trying to go through the process of collecting data to take them to small claims forward and get them evicted. That somebody who knew me really well was like, Erica, I think you're going off the deep end. Use this anger towards something productive. And they told me about this bill called public health. So I never set out to be a scientist. It kind of shocks me when I have interviews like this. When people refer to me as a scientist, it's very shocking. But I kind of think that those questions that through the conspiracy theory background, the ability to question everything

10:10is kind of coming handy now. Absolutely. And I love that you were taking this systematic, logical approach to deal with your noisy neighbors, too. It was actually very emotional. It was just like, how can I get rid of them? So once you learned about public health, how did you make that decision? Okay, this is something I'm going to pursue. As much as I like to believe that my artistic endeavors were the best, I was a starving artist. I'm not a great artist, right? I like to do art, but I wasn't making money. And so it was a sort of easy decision. It was like, instead of pair and fight my neighbors, I can still go to like craft fairs, craft shows, or people coming to my website to

10:47buy things like I wasn't making a lot of money. So when somebody told me about public health, I felt like it was a really productive way to address a problem. So through the process of me trying to get my upstairs neighbors evicted, I sort of learned that noise, which is what I studied primarily, was something that a lot of communities were dealing with. And it wasn't just their upstairs neighbors. It was because they live next to an airport or they live next to a major highway or a train station. So I realized that the problem was a lot bigger than myself. So I think I kind of say,

11:18like at that time, I was sort of doing selfish science, but I really wanted to work on selfless science to be able to impact more people than myself. So I sold off all of my stuff and I applied to PhD programs and I decided, hey, I'm going to do this. That is amazing. And then as you were going through the PhD program, I think you start to think about, what is my long-term career path going to look like? How did you decide you wanted to go into

Academic pathways and teaching

11:48academia and pursue a postdoc? I literally just follow the path and trust the process. And again, somebody like myself who grew up poor, somebody like myself that is an artist where you don't know where your next paycheck is coming from, especially if you're a starving artist, I learned very early to trust the process that a lot of things are outside of our control. But if you move in a direction with good intentions, the path will reveal itself. So I just kind of was like, I'm just going to take this for what it is in the moment.

12:21I'm going to be open to being the person that I'm supposed to be, and I'm just going to see what happens. So I knew that I needed to finish the PhD. I knew the traditional route was to finish the PhD, to do a postdoc, to apply for faculty positions. So I guess I kind of took the path of least resistance. But at the end of the day, I always knew that I wanted to question some of the experiences that I had in that process, because I personally don't believe that that process leads to the best science. So I took the path of least resistance. But I said, when I'm in a position

12:56that I can act on the things that I see about academia, about public health in particular, that need to change, in my opinion, I'm going to change them. So I also knew that if I wanted to change those things, I will need to be in a position that I can actually change things. Definitely. And how did you choose where you were going to do your postdoc? You ended up, like we mentioned, you did a postdoc there at UConn Health and the Boston University School of Public Health. What brought you to there specifically? People who were working on things that I was interested in working on,

13:27not actually having a job after I graduated. So when I got my PhD, I was like the majority of people looking for a job. I was trying to apply for a grant. I needed to make sure that I had funding to fund my postdoc. So again, I sort of took the path of least resistance. I think if I had an autobiography of my life or a biography of my life, it would be the path of least resistance, the Erica Walker story. But some of it was from necessity. But also too, as I went through the process, I saw people whose research I really liked and I wanted to do that kind of work. So

14:00I kind of wanted to just position myself to where I could be in those spaces. But up until recently, I have only taken the path of least resistance. I don't want to oversell who I am, but I just knew that I need to move in the direction that I eventually want to be in and just kind of let it go from there. Definitely. And I know you had a lot of great teaching experiences as well along the course of your career leading up to joining the faculty there at Brown University. Can you talk a little bit about how this teaching informed your career choices and maybe what impacts it's had on

14:31you? So when I was a doctoral student, we probably made about $20,000 a year in terms of our stipend. And if you got a little bit more, if you did TA ships and things like that, which were very competitive. So I knew that I needed an outside job. And for me, because there was a school literally in between where I lived and where I went to classes, I needed to have an outside job. So I started when I was in graduate school, I started just adjuncting. So I just did it to help pay the

15:05deals. I lived in Boston. My doctoral stipend didn't even pay my rent. My apartment was $2,000 a month. I lived by myself and that didn't even cover that. So I started teaching because I needed to make rent and I needed to be able to take care of myself. So I started adjuncting. I really like that. I really love working with students. There's just something so infectious about young, unjaded, open minds because I get a high off of that kind of freedom. So in the process of trying to do this adjuncting to

15:36make rent, I really became addicted to the mind that was student. I really took seriously my role in shaping their minds. I just kind of fell in love with that out of that necessity, but really am attracted to their ideas, what they bring to the table, their energy, their enthusiasm, their optimism. It's really infectious. It's probably the best part of my day. That is wonderful. And I know you ultimately, as we mentioned earlier in our interview, joined the faculty there at Brown University. Can you tell us what attracted you to Brown?

16:11When we apply for jobs, we sort of take the jobs that are offered to us, right? Like we just cast a wide net and we just hope that something sticks. I actually wanted to be in an urban planning department. I'm just going to keep it real with you. I wanted to be in an urban planning department because I felt like in my experience as an urban planner and working in urban planning schools, I felt like it was the way that I could best have impact. So I actually didn't want to be in an epidemiology department. I wanted to do urban planning. But what attracted me to Brown was through the interview

16:46process, through looking at other professors who were there and who were successful, I sort of realized that it offered this opportunity for me to do things that I wanted to do. So when I would ask questions, like, can I do this? Can I do this? The answer was always, yeah, sure. So I felt like out of all of the places that I did get offers from, this was the one that would give me the most intellectual freedom. Also, like I said, the Brown students are very special. So I was attracted to

17:18that. But it was mostly, where's the place where I can have the most academic freedom? And I felt like that was Brown.

Community noise and water crises

17:26Excellent. And I know you've been doing phenomenal work since starting there on the faculty at Brown and launching your own independent research program there. So can you give us, Erica, a high level description of something that you're working on right now that you were just the most excited about? So when I was a postdoc, I started Community Noose Lab at Boston University, and I took it with me to Brown. My expertise is in community noise. So the project that I'm going to talk to you about has nothing to do with noise. It is actually an example of the importance of trusting the process.

17:58So when I got to Brown, another thing was like Brown has a natural connection to my home state of Mississippi through the Brown-Civilu partnership. So I knew that I didn't have to do all the background information and explaining what Mississippi is. They knew it. They'd been working with students and faculty and staff at Super Bowl College for like over 40 years. So that was also a major attractant. I knew that I wanted to come to Brown and start a research program in Mississippi.

18:28I wanted to open up Community Noise Lab in Mississippi, and I really wanted to do community noise work in Mississippi. I applied for a SEED award, got the SEED award. And when I went to Mississippi, I was immediately confronted by a whole bunch of things that had nothing to do with noise. And then actually, when I had a community meeting, people were like, Erica, we don't care about noise. We care about the water crisis that's happening. So I started Community Noise Lab in Mississippi, right at the heart of the Jackson water crisis, where the literal water infrastructure failed.

19:03And they also had a pause in sanitation pickup. So there was also an illegal dumping crisis. So noise was not a top 10 priority list. And as a matter of fact, when I brought it up, people like literally knocked me out of the room. They're like, no. So I had to literally pivot to studying water. And I literally had to pivot to studying illegal dumping. So while these things are things that are solely outside of my comfort level, what mattered to say were the things that mattered the most to the community that I was operating in. And through that process, I sort

19:39of opened my eyes to another area of research that I would not had access to had I been just like, hey, I'm Community Noise Lab. I'm going to do noise. Whatever else you're talking about is a youth problem. And it's something that we do do as researchers. We sort of follow our own agendas. So in this process, through the water research, and in particular, I'm very excited about the illegal dumping research. We have just been able to contribute so much, I believe, valuable insights and research into a problem that I otherwise would have literally stepped over. When I go home,

20:13I literally see trash on the ground. I just literally step over it. But I think that process of paying attention to the needs on the ground, number one, made me a better researcher and made me develop tools that I didn't have expertise in. I never knew how to test trace metals and soil. I never thought I would own a gas chromatograph mass spectrometer. Like I never thought that I would be creating an illegal dumping database. I never thought I would be doing those things. And I never thought that I would

20:45be in that space. So it's not necessarily a specific project. It is the process of being open to the unknown and the uncertainties. And again, trusting the process. The only time, because I've been talking to you of how I have taken the path of least resistance. In this time when I did not take the path of least resistance, my eyes were just open to so much. It's not necessarily a project. So we're

21:16going to a lot of projects, noise, air quality, illegal dumping, water quality, soil quality. But it's the process of paying attention to the right questions in the right places with the right agenda that has opened my eyes up to another part of myself I didn't even know exist. Absolutely. And I think this community informed research can be so powerful because I think scientists often go in with assumptions, right? We've got this expertise, we've got these questions, and we assume that that's going to be something that's

21:47going to have a big impact on a community, but that's not necessarily the case. So taking the time to stop and listen is so important. And I'm curious, were there things, maybe particular things that surprised you the most from these community conversations? It made me question everything. So I am in a school of public health. It made me really question what is public health. It made me question what my role is as a researcher. It made me question and make definitive decisions about how I want to be as a researcher going forward. I guess I can share

22:17with you like a paper where we had some interesting findings about illegal dumping sites impacting the soil quality. Like I can share some of that stuff with you, but I think for me, the biggest insights have been from the process and the process of the importance of being at the right place at the right time, answering the right questions, and also being a researcher where people feel like they can share with you their insights and trust that you're going to do right by them and follow through and leave it all on the

22:50field. So for me, it was the process that was much more important than the findings that I will write in a journal that no one will read. But it's the process. Oh, absolutely. And I love how you've painted science as this process, this journey, this kind of iterative learning experience, because I think you're absolutely right. There's just always something to learn from. There are these struggles, these failures, you're sort of constantly getting lessons, whether you want them or not. So can you share an experience that you've had that was maybe a major failure or something that you really struggled to recover from and maybe talk

23:25through how you got through those difficult times? Can I share two, if you don't mind? Of course.

Navigating failures and research integrity

23:31Okay. So for the first one was me failing my comprehensive exam as a doctoral student. Oh, no. So that was the first one. And for a few reasons, because I remember I failed that comprehensive exam. And I remember literally walking out of that room and going to a bus stop and sitting at the bus stop and crying. This bus driver felt so bad for me. He like stopped at the bus and he was like, are you okay? And I'm like, I'm good. I just give you a couple of minutes. I need to get myself

24:03together. And he stayed there. He was like, I'm not leaving until I'm sure you're okay. And I'm like, I'm not okay. He was like, you know what? Just get on the bus and just finish my ride with me. And I was like, okay, I'll do that. Right. So in that process, I realized that there's other directions to go. Like there's another bus to get on. Like I'm going to go somewhere at some point. But it also made me confront some things about myself. Like, was I up to the sniff test? The answer is no. Did I do a good job? The answer is no. Could I have done better? Was I prepared? The answer to

24:38all of those things? They were no's. And so in that process, I learned that in order for me to make it here, I'm going to have to not operate from a sense of my ego. My ego was bruised. But again, I learned so much about myself and I had to confront so many realities about myself. And in the process, once I confront them and address them, then this won't happen again. So it taught me the importance of self-reflection, the importance of honesty. I guess it was a thing like people didn't share

25:09when they fail their comprehensive exam. And it was really nice to be able to actually just share that so students could know that there's a life after failures so that students can come to me with advice on how not to fail. You don't have to fail. That I can reflect to address those parts of me that were lacking. And that I know that there's a direction. There are people out there that care, that are people that are going to let me ride for free. They're going to take me to new destinations, but I have to have that level of self-reflection. And this is one that's a little more recent,

25:44but I do community-facing research. And people always typecast me as a community-engaged researcher, but there's a whole field of community-engaged research and scholarship that I had not contributed to and that I'm not really read. So I don't want to do a disservice to that field because I am not a community-engaged researcher, but I do community-facing work. And in the process of that, I had to have a difficult conversation in separation from a community partner. And in the process of

26:14that, it was very painful. The community partner made a lot of false accusations and I was under investigation for that. Oh, wow. And in that process, I really learned that regardless of what I do, I will always make the right decisions, even if it costs me a lot. And that costs me a lot. And I'm still struggling to rebuild my reputation around that fallout. But at the end of the day,

26:45I would do it again because I always want to do what is right. So losing your reputation, even if I mean, it's, you know, like I read some of these scandals that some professors go through because they're like plagiarizing and doing all this kind of stuff. It was nowhere near that. It was a very internal, professionally handled investigation. But the fact that you lose your reputation and your reputation is so hard to gain back was very humbling. But despite all of that,

27:16it just reinforced the fact that no matter how painful the decisions are, we always have to do the right things. I think that's one thing that we don't talk about in academia. We just sort of talk about the highlights. Hey, I presented at a conference. I got this award. I got this grant. I got these evaluations. But there's an uncomfortable side to it, especially if you're putting yourself out into the public. But that process kind of showed me the importance of doing the right thing, even if it costs you. Absolutely. And Erica, I really appreciate you sharing both of

27:50these stories because I think, especially jumping into the second story, building trust in a community when you're trying to do this community facing research that you're doing takes time and a lot of effort. And it can be so difficult if you see that starting to erode when you feel like you're trying to do everything right. How did you, I guess, start to rebuild after this fallout? It's still an ongoing thing. When you lose your reputation, it's not something that comes back overnight. It's just by continuing to do good work. And it's just continuing to basically operate

28:25under the assumption. I can show you better than I can tell you. So it reinforced the kind of desire to do is right, to continue to work forward. But it's something that I think about all the time. I don't think I'm out of the clear. I don't think that people are like, oh, okay. Now that that's been resolved, we can move on. But I think that we are actually at the same, I'm speaking only for public health. I think that what I experienced in my very, very, very small example, because like I said,

28:56this was very professionally done. You're like, it wasn't a scandal, right? You didn't have the media at your door. Yeah. Yeah. I didn't have the media. I'm making it sound way more serious than it was. I had definitive proof that I was in the right and I made the right decision. But what I went through is a smaller example. And again, I'm only speaking for public health of what we are actually going through in public health, because unless you're living under a rock, the reputation of academia, of scientific research, of scientists has also taken a blow. And I don't think that we're at the

29:31point we are willing to talk about that. So I feel like what happened to me on a very, very, very small scale is what is happening to public health field, to academia, and to scientific research on a whole. And the reputation, whether it's warranted or not, is your reputation. You can build up your reputation, but all it takes is lack of trust, lack of follow-through, mismanagement to bring everything crashing down to the ground. So the reason why I brought that second example

30:07of that up is that I feel like we as academics, we as researchers also have a stain on our reputation and that we're going to have to really work hard to rebuild that trust. And it's not going to come overnight, but we need to really, really, really pay attention to that and try to mitigate it before it turns into the point of no return. Absolutely. Well, I'm so glad, like I said, that you shared these stories. And I think it's so important to have these honest and open conversations about this topic,

30:39because I think you're absolutely right. Oftentimes, it's sort of pushed into the corners or talked about only behind closed doors. So bringing this to light and encouraging people to think about it and think about what they can do to help build that public trust in science, I think is critical at this stage. And I appreciate you also sharing the story of the failure of your comprehensive exam. And I think this is a story of redemption, right? Because you proved yourself that failing this exam does not have to be the end of your scientific career. You were ultimately able to turn it into a success. We don't live in a fairy tale. There are happy endings. And this life of an academic is a

31:15rollercoaster ride. So there's going to be ups and downs. But I think like you said, the moral of the story is that you can take a licking and keep on ticking. You were down, but you can get back up. Absolutely. And I think oftentimes, these happy endings, these positive successes don't come easily. So we love showcasing the journey to a success because I think oftentimes people only see the beautiful paper in print or hear about the grant announcement, but they don't hear the whole story. So do you have a success story that was really meaningful for you, Erica, that you would

31:45like to share and kind of give us a behind the scenes look at what happened?

Survivor guilt and hometown impact

31:50My successes and failures sort of bleed into each other because like I said, I am ultimately chasing the new look at things. But I'm very proud of the fact that I have been able to go back to my home state of Mississippi, which has so many issues and be able to contribute to my home state through research and very happy to be able to have in its fourth year, a longitudinal cohort study,

32:22study the impact of a child's environment on their health and wellbeing. I'm happy to say that we're in our fourth year and we were in our fourth year, despite getting initially cut, our funding got cut and got reinstated. And all of this stuff around the community partner happened during all of that. So all of my funding was in peril at that time, but I'm happy that we lived to see another day and I'm still able to continue this work in Mississippi. I grew up in Mississippi, born and raised. We

32:53actually have a noise and air pollution monitor in my hometown. And through therapy, I've been able to kind of come to this realization. A large part of my work in academia has come through this kind of unresolved survivor's guilt, which I have talked through in commentaries and articles and podcasts. I grew up in a Mississippi that doesn't exist. And I know that if I grew up in the Mississippi that exists today, I wouldn't have a PhD from Harvard. I probably wouldn't even have been able to have an uninterrupted school year, thanks to a whole bunch of environmental issues from no water coming through

33:28the pipes. Borg is so hot and the HVAC systems are broken. So I think there's an unspoken part of me that has used academia to address or make up for the survivor's guilt that I feel. Like, hey, I made it, but I know that the kids behind me don't have the same kinds of opportunities. Like literally the libraries that my parents took me to when I was growing up are now closed. The schools that I went to when I was growing up in Mississippi are now closed. So I am very proud that I have been able to

34:01go to therapy, process that survivor's guilt and directed towards making sure that the children that are there now can be provided the same opportunities that I had when I was growing up so that they too can have a life that's wide and open and they can be filled with optimism and they can reach their potential. And I think the biggest success is that I've been able to work through that guilt and that grief and to actually work through that in a way that's not self-centered. It's actually outward

34:36boring. So I'm very happy about that because a lot of us don't know how to manage our dysfunction, myself included. We will take it out on the waitress. We take out our frustration in Israel and other people, but it's like, no, I went to therapy. I identified the issue and I am pouring that out into the place that made me who I am today. And I think that's wonderful. They're able to have these impacts and try to solve some of these big problems that are happening in the place where you have this really strong personal connection. And I think that sounds like this was a particularly meaningful success and something that you continue

35:09to have the opportunity to be engaged in over time. So do you have, I guess, a vision for what you would like to see in an ideal world, the kinds of impacts that your research could have there in your hometown, in your home state? My work in Mississippi, anybody can do this work. We can get grants. We can do research. We can self-prescribe meaning and value. I'm not doing anything that's different than anybody else is in academia, right? But I think that for me, the bigger picture is that I hope that we as

35:44scientists, and again, I'm speaking from public health, I'm hoping that we really get back to what the public means in public health. And I hope that I can show that we can still do meaningful research by changing the mindset to think about working on problems that matter to the community, the ability to really die to self or die to ego and really think like, hey, this is what's important to the community. I'm going to focus on this, that we really think about our roles as public health

36:19researchers. And we sort of kind of understand that we have a duty and an obligation, especially in a field like public health, to do meaningful, impactful, people-facing work. So I hope that my research can provide evidence that this is the way that we should be going. So I hope that my work is good enough that people can see that this is a viable, rewarding,

36:49and personally and community-facing way to do science. And then I hope that through the work that we do, that we can rebuild some of the lost trust that is prevalent today towards scientists, towards researchers, towards academia. In many cases, it sounds like science is the starting point. We need some data to be able to start to get traction, to be able to change some of these bigger things in the real world. And I think it's so important to encourage people to think, though, beyond their research, beyond their lives and

37:22what's immediately in front of them and get outside of their ivory tower and their white coat in their lab, because I think that's how you see what problems exist in the real world. And another great way to expose people to new ideas and just give people a sense of what has happening in other places and other cultures and those sorts of things is through reading. So we encourage everyone to read broadly. And I'd love to hear from you if you have a particular book that you would like to recommend for me and our listeners that you've really enjoyed, whether it's science related or not. I have been on this nostalgic kit. So like growing up, I used to read all those Sweet Valley High books

37:56and think there's like River Heights books. So I went on like a whole eBay binge and I've purchased those series of those Sweet Valley High, Sweet Valley Twins, River Heights books. I literally purchased the series and I'm actually sitting down and reading all of those books. I'm a child of the 80s, right? So I grew up in all those kinds of stuff. So it's so weird to read those books from the perspective of a supposedly serious adult. So if you can get your hands on some of those old 80s

38:28series books, they are so funny. And it's just, wow, there was a world where people weren't on cell phones. They didn't have the internet. They were actually going through a phone book. So it's just put me in this really interesting headspace. Unfortunately, I can't give you any great autobiography or some scientific book. It's literally those 80s series that are so trashy, but it's such an interesting snapshot of a time that I once lived. And I think that's fantastic. Going back and revisiting stories from a completely different

39:02point in your life can give you these sort of insights and things that you maybe didn't appreciate or didn't realize at the time when you first read books. So I love going back and rereading things as well. Maybe not Sweet Valley High, but it is what it is. I love those books brought up. It's interesting perspective. Definitely. Well, thank you for these recommendations and lovely to hear that you're going on this nostalgia book tour. And I think

Conference travel and urban planning

39:25in addition to some of the wonderful people that you get to work with and the research that you get to do in science, another thing that's wonderful about the career are some of the opportunities that you get to go to different places. So whether it's doing your research there on the ground in Mississippi or going to conferences or working with collaborators at different places, do you have a favorite place, Erica, that your science has taken you? This is going to sound so bad. I promise y'all I'm a serious person. First of all, I hate conferences. It's probably the worst thing in the world for me. They just feel like bubbles and it feels like

39:56they're these self-important bubbles. We're all trying to network, we're all trying to get on that next train to somewhere. It just feels very self-centered and self-interested. I rarely go to conferences. And when I do go to conferences, I make sure I plan time before and after to go somewhere else. For the past few years, I have been going to conferences that have surprisingly either been in Germany, Switzerland, or Austria. But I try to look for conferences in that part of the world because I love going to Austria. I love Innsbruck. I just love the sounds. I love the way the air

40:34smells. It sort of gives me an idea that a well-planned, a well-designed city or community can smell good, sound nice, look good. For me, Innsbruck, I'm sure it has their own problems. Like I'm looking at this through a tourist lens, but I love Innsbruck. So I tried to choose conferences where I can go travel outside of that to Innsbruck. But I hate conferences. I hate traveling to them. I hate being there. Networking gives me the hives. I don't like hearing people talk about

41:06themselves. It's the biggest waste of time in the world to me, speaking for myself. But I try to use them as the opportunities to travel to places I would otherwise not visit if I didn't go to this conference. And everybody knows I hate conferences. It's like one of the things that I get dinged on in my evaluations each year. Like you need to go to conferences, you need to network. And I'll probably pay the price for that. But right now, the price doesn't seem that severe that I will change my behaviors. That's fair. So what is it about Innsbruck? You mentioned you love the sights, the sounds, the smells. Are there particular things that you've done there or places that

41:38you've gone there that really made that place the most memorable for you? I actually live near a major highway. I live near a water treatment facility that smells like sewage when the temperatures get a certain way. And I know that where I live is a result of for urban planning. So sort of like our mindset when we're in the United States, and I love my country, but we sort of accept a lot. So when I go to Innsbruck, for example, it smells nice. The air is

42:10clean. It's crisp. The food is good. I can't eat bread in the United States. But when I go to Europe, I can eat the bread. It just feels like a different one. So I'm like, there can't be a better life. There could be the opportunity that we can make better choices or we can be provided better choices. But we just kind of we're in the state of arrest in the United States. And I'm like, look, we can have a better life in these kind of ways. Our food can be better. Our air can be cleaner. Our soundscapes can be more beneficial and more peaceful. Public transportation can run on time.

42:44I cannot have to spend two hours to get to a grocery store on a bus that's like five miles away. I can bike down the street and feel safe. We're so used to being deprived that we've fallen in love with the neglect. So when I go over to Innsbruck, for example, I see and I'm like, oh, life can be better. But when I'm here, I accept poor public transportation. I accept poor health, poor air. I accept poor noise quality. I accept poor food. I accept unsafe infrastructure for cyclists and pedestrians.

43:17So I feel like going to other places, even if it takes a conference to get me there, kind of opens my eyes, especially when it comes to environmental issues, urban planning issues in the United States. Certainly. I think travel does afford this opportunity for you to see the possibilities and see how people live differently all over the world. And whether you like it or not, you are making these connections with people from all over the world. And I think that's another thing that's sort of unique about careers in science is you end up with this network of people and collaborators. So can you share some of these human moments in science? Because I think there

43:49are so many stereotypes about what scientists are like and what life as a scientist is like. So do you have a story or two of your own that really showcases what it's like to be a scientist and maybe some of the quirky lab traditions or things that spring up or just any funny or fond memories that you've shared with colleagues that go against some of these stereotypes people may have? So I think that people think that scientists are all knowing, all planning. We follow the methods process because at the end of the day, our work needs to be reproducible. So sometimes we make

44:21really stupid decisions. I just remember one time I was in Mississippi with two other researchers. We'd all traveled down there because we were measuring sound levels at data centers. So I remember we drove over into Arkansas. We were in Mississippi, but one of the three researchers I was with was like, I've never been to Arkansas. Can we just drive over to Arkansas to check it off my bucket list? I think I had a bucket list of like 50 states. So I was like, yeah. So we ended up just driving into Arkansas. We had been driving for a while. We needed to go to

44:53the bathroom. So we had two choices. And the choice was to either go to this rest stop or go to this casino. And I made the choice. So let's go to the casino because the bathrooms were probably cleaner.

Human flaws and future questions

45:06So we went to the casino and then like we were walking out and I was just like, well, what if there's a picture somewhere of all of us coming to Mississippi on this research trip? But then we're like all on camera leaving the casino. You would think that we would be thinking about these optics, but it was like at the end of the day, we were just laughing about some big expose of these federally funded researchers are spending taxpayer money at the casino. That may not have been what you wanted to ask, but I just kind of thought about people think that we are better than that,

45:40that we think things through. I definitely didn't think that through. I just needed to use the bad throwback. I just remember when we were all walking out of the casino and it was just like, this is not good. The moment of realization. Yeah. We just like, well, we didn't gamble. But I think that also too, we're human. We have emotions. We are processing our own issues. We are processing the issues of imposter syndrome. We are dealing with failures. The world sometimes feels like it's on our shoulders. Sometimes we know that we may not be good enough. And sometimes we pit on

46:15these facades. And I don't think that that is necessarily beneficial. I think that we should be honest about our feelings. Like, hey, I failed this, or I feel like an imposter today, or I'm tired. I need to take a day off. I need a mental health day. I'm not at my best today. I didn't write that correctly. Or, hey, I used AI to generate this paragraph. Like, I think that we need to be more human and not hold ourselves to these standards that like really nobody put on us. I think we're

46:46like, hey, we have a PhD. We should be making right decisions, right? I should know not to be walking out of a casino in this time period where all federal funding is under. On a work trip. Yeah. Yeah. But I just feel like we need to be more human. We need to lean into our chaos and our insanity. And we need to be more open because that makes science more accessible. Because when I ask people what they think about me, they like think I don't sleep. They think I don't have a good time, that I don't make mistakes, that I think that I'm all that, that whatever I apply for, I'm going to get,

47:21that people listen to me. And I think being open to sharing those kinds of things helps tear down the barriers that people see because it puts a real lens on who we are. We're not these special people. We are flawed human beings that make bad decisions. At the wrong times, we get in trouble, we do things wrong, we use AI, we fail, we forget to grade exams, all these kinds of things. And I think that we need to be honest about that. Definitely. And I think it's so important for people to kind

47:53of understand that science ultimately, like you said, there's this rigor, there's this need for reproducibility and this need to advance and make changes to have these big impacts. But it's ultimately done by people, right? And the people doing science are no different from the people who aren't doing science. So I think this was a great story to illustrate that, like you said, sometimes things go completely off the rails, not according to plan. And scientists are just people living their lives and doing the best they can. And I think that is such an important message for people to hear, because you do have this pressure to be solving these big challenges and these societal

48:26problems that everyone is facing. So if we took away the things that normally hold you back, Erica, things like funding, staff, technology, feasibility, none of those were issues any longer. Do you have one dream research question that you would want to answer most? Yes. Number one is, are our cities louder today than they were back then? I think that would be the main one, because everyone asks me that all the time and there's no proof. I don't know. I don't know the answer to that, but it's something that people ask me all the time.

48:57What do you think are the impacts then if cities are louder now than they were back then? I have a sneaking suspicion that they were as loud. I don't know what the impacts are. I just kind of want to know the answer to that because I started to like dig through historical documents, paying close attention to how people described their acoustical soundscape. And Henry David Thoreau was complaining about trains. People at Pompeii were complaining about barking dogs. People that were living in Philadelphia and like in the 1700s were complaining about church bills. I just kind of

49:29want to know what they sounded like and are they louder today? I think we had access to more technology where we could answer those questions and then we could relate them to human health. But I'm just kind of curious from like an archaeological sociological point of view. I think that is a fascinating question, just kind of understanding how our environmental sounds have changed over time or if they have changed over time and starting to dissect what kinds of impacts that may have on whether it's mental health or even physical health and how people are just living their everyday lives. So this is fascinating. Yes. And then just a non-scientific one. If we get more, are we happier? I think as a researcher,

50:07I'm always, why did I do this to get tenure? I got to do this to do this, but I don't see happiness. So it's like, what am I chasing here? What is the carrot here? But if we get more, are we actually happy? Or can we do more with less? I think about that with grant funding all the time. Can I do just as impactful work with half the amount of money? Is my happiness going to increase if I get tenure or not? Are we happier when we get more? I think the answer is no, but I want to see that question answered when it comes to academia. I think that is such an important question. And I think this idea, like you said, of chasing these

50:41goals all the time, you feel like you can never stop. And I think that kind of stress, that kind of pressure builds on people. And so thinking about how we can make these happier, healthier environments in academia and beyond, I think is so important. And I know, Erica, you've shared so much with us today, and I would love to end with some advice. So for our listeners out there who are working through their own iterative learning journey in life, do you have a piece of advice that really helped you that you can pay forward today? I would just say, don't be complacent. There's more facts out there. And just embrace being wrong.

51:14I think that's part of the scientific process. But embrace that. Truly lean into that. Be open to being wrong. Be okay with making mistakes. Be okay with learning. We just did a study where we looked at trace metal concentrations in soil, and we looked at volatile organic compounds in soils. And we did sort of like a site prioritization list for the city to choose which illegal dumping sites to remediate. So when we had the list based on trace metals, the prioritization of sites

51:48was one way. But then in our own lab, using just another piece of equipment, looking at another set of pollutants, we saw the prioritization list change. So science is fast. It's vast. It's all encompassing. You may even prove yourself wrong. You may even do work and undo what you've done and embrace that. I loved having to go back to the city and be like, on second thought, well, we included both of these things. This is the order by which you should start remediating the sites. And I also

52:18know that if we considered another pollutant with the site prioritization would change. So we're only doing a snapshot in time. And as we unearth more, we'll learn more. We may be proven wrong, but embrace all of that because that is learning. That is knowledge. Absolutely. I think that is a powerful message. And sometimes there's just not this easy, simple answer. Life is complex and messy and science has to find a way to contend with that, I think. Well, Erica, it's been a pleasure to chat with you. If our listeners have enjoyed the

52:50conversation and they want to learn more about you and the work that you do, what is the best way for them to get more information or get in touch? So if you just Google Erica Walker Brown University, you'll find my email and just email me. I respond to emails and I love dialogue and conversation. So just email. Wonderful. Well, listeners, definitely take a moment to reach out to Erica if you have any particular questions and want to make a connection. And Erica, thank you so much for your time today and for sharing a part of your story.

53:21Thank you so much for having me. Thank you so, so, so, so much. Well, it was a delight to meet you. Wonderful to chat. Listeners, so great to have you here with us as always. We hope you'll join us again next time for another episode of People Behind the Science.