862: Understanding How the Brain Battles Infection - Dr. Tajie Harris

0:00Hey everyone, and thanks for joining me today for episode 862 of the People Behind the Science podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Marie McNeely, and today I am thrilled to be speaking with our guest, Dr. Taji Harris. This episode is made possible with support from our sponsor, Innovative Research. Innovative Research has provided scientists with quality lab products made in Novi, Michigan for more than 20 years. Their portfolio includes human and animal biologicals, assay and ELISA kits, antibodies, and more. Products can be purchased directly

0:31from their website by credit card or purchase order at www.innov-research.com. That's www.innov-research.com. They offer small quantities of bulk purchases and custom orders. From human whole blood to specialized antibodies, Innovative Research has what you need to succeed in the lab. And today, Taji is going to talk more about her lab, as well as share some insights and stories from her career. So listeners, get ready to meet another one of our brilliant people behind the science.

1:05Every day, discoveries are made that will change our understanding of the world around us. Dr. Marie McNeely is here to bring you the brilliant minds who are making these discoveries so they can share their incredible stories and take you on an amazing journey. Welcome to People Behind the Science. Hello, everyone, and welcome to People Behind the Science. Today, I am excited to be speaking with our guest scientist, Dr. Taji Harris. So, Taji, welcome to the show today. How are you?

1:40I'm doing fine. It's a great day, but spring is close. Spring is almost here. Yes, I'm waiting for it with bated breath here as well. Well, we are excited to have you with us, and I'm looking forward to chatting more about you and your research as we go through our conversation today. But let me first start by telling our listeners a little bit more about your current positions and the steps that you took to get to where you are today. So, listeners, Taji is an associate professor in the School of Medicine at the University of Virginia. She received her bachelor's degree in biology from Bemidji State University in

2:13Minnesota and her PhD in microbiology from the University of Wisconsin-Madison. Afterwards, Taji conducted postdoctoral research in immunoparasitology at the University of Pennsylvania before joining the faculty there at the University of Virginia, where she is today. And Taji, of course, today we want to get to know you as a scientist, but we also want to get to know you more as a person more generally. So, can you tell us what do you like to do when you're not very busy doing science? I spend a lot of time with my dogs. So, I have two rescue dogs, and they're both

2:46lovely and quirky. I spend a lot of time walking them, hanging out with them, but I also love to travel. I love to cook. And over the past year, I've been very into puzzling. So, jigsaw puzzles have been a way to take my mind off the current state of affairs and just really enjoy putting something together. That's awesome. So, what is the most complex or most pieces of puzzle you've put together? I think 2,000 probably. There comes a space issue at the 2,000 piece mark that just is

3:19huge. But I love the puzzles that are beautiful and not too tricky. So, like, that I can really enjoy myself and not become too frustrated if they're too difficult. So, 1,000 pieces was my sweet spot. Oh, that's awesome. And you mentioned cooking as well. What do you like to cook? Oh, lots of things. So, I got an outdoor pizza oven for Christmas, and I've just had so much fun with it. It's kind of become my laboratory at home, trying to work out recipes and all of the

3:49doughs and trying out ingredients and set a few things on fire. But it's been great fun. Oh, Taji, that sounds amazing. And it sounds like you've got a nice variety of hobbies to keep you occupied outside of your science. But you are doing some remarkable work in the lab, and I'd love to talk about that next. So, for people who might not be familiar with your specific area of research or might be outside of science altogether, how do you describe to them what you do? It's very interesting. I'm in a department of neuroscience, but my PhD was in microbiology, and

4:20I would maybe consider myself an immunologist. So, that's a lot of different specialties. But ultimately, what we want to understand is how the immune system functions in the brain. So, I think more specifically, I'm a neuroimmunologist. We study a brain infection. So, this is a situation where the immune system absolutely has to function in the brain. But when we talk about the immune system in the brain, the brain is categorized as immune-privileged because immune responses are just different. They're slow. They're not very strong. And if we have too strong an immune response

4:52in the brain, it can be really bad for the brain. Once we lose those brain cells, a lot of them we can't get back. So, we're trying to unlock these mysteries. And we do that in the context of a brain infection that's caused by a parasite called Toxoplasma gondii. Can you tell us a little bit more about this parasite? It's an interesting one, right? So, it's more like us than it is like other microbes, right? So, it's a eukaryotic cell, but single-celled, and lives inside of our cells. So, this is a true parasite. It cannot live on its own. It has to be inside of a host cell.

5:24And Toxoplasma has a remarkably broad host range. So, it infects any warm-blooded vertebrate, including humans. So, that's kind of impressive in itself that it's found a way to survive and persist in all of those different types of animals. A third of the world has Toxoplasma. And most people never know. It's something people acquire, usually, in contaminated food or water over a lifetime. And the way we track if people have ever been exposed is they'll build antibodies.

5:55And so, in a blood test, you can see if people were ever exposed to Toxoplasma. And the idea is that this parasite goes dormant, and it goes dormant within the brain. So, only when people become very severely immunocompromised. And so, examples of that included people with advanced AIDS disease or people that are getting a transplant and then very, very immunosuppressed, the parasite can start to replicate again, and then that's really dangerous. And so, to us, this just illustrated a situation where a healthy immune system deals with this parasite

6:26beautifully, and it's a parasite that's in the brain. So, in the lab, we can learn so much about what the brain is capable of and what the immune system is capable of using this model system. Well, I think this is fascinating, Taji, and I look forward to talking more about your work as we go through our interview today. And I think just doing really cool research can be inherently motivating, but I love to talk to scientists about what motivates and inspires them and maybe keeps them going when times are tough. So, do you have a favorite quote or a saying or just something that really motivates you?

6:57There's a few things at different points. And so, I think one quality of scientists in general is that we often will work diligently for a very long time towards a goal. So, we have a lot of delayed gratification or delayed celebration, but there's an importance in showing up every day and just moving things forward. And that's akin to just row the boat. Some days I come in and I'm like, let's row the boat, let's move it forward. And that also kind of captures also the team aspect of science of we're all

7:30doing our little part and together we can really achieve a lot. So, that sort of day-to-day, that's kind of can be a motivator. Like, let's just get in there and do it. But yeah, there are a few other quotes that I don't really love, but I do use. A lot of people talk about the models we use in the lab that none are great, but some are useful. That's also one that pops up often because I think it's a way to reorient ourselves when we might be picking on a certain model. But some are really useful. We've developed some good therapeutic stuff, not the greatest models. And it's good to sometimes focus

8:02on some positives. And so, I like that as a reorienter. Definitely. And I really love this idea that you shared of the row, the boat. And I think just the accumulation of small actions can take you really far. These things that may not seem earth-shattering or groundbreaking in the moment can keep you moving forward. I love that. Yep, absolutely. Well, fantastic quotes to share with me and our listeners today. And I'd love to talk also about some of the people who motivated and inspired you. I think as a scientist, you get to work with some amazing colleagues and mentors and role models. So, when you look back at your own career, were there particular people who maybe inspired you

8:36initially or helped you get to where you are today? Oh, absolutely. I grew up in a small town in Minnesota and I had a high school teacher. I took an advanced biology course. And I remember how much I love that class in comparison to the others I was taking. I was just like, wow, we can explain things through genetics. And I was just all in. And so, when I was thinking about college, I was thinking about going down the biology route. And I went to a relatively small state school, so Bemidji State at the time had about 4,000 students, but had fantastic mentors there that identified ways to get me into the

9:11research labs. So, there were some small research opportunities at Bemidji, but remember Dr. Patrick Guilfoyle, he was like, we need to get you a summer experience. Why don't you apply to this one? And that's how I first went to the University of Wisconsin, was for a summer research program that was sponsored by NSF. And it was just fantastic to give me the opportunity to be in a research lab and see if it was for me or not. And I just fell in love with it. And I had fantastic mentors in graduate school. And then as a postdoc, my mentor, Chris Hunter, was particularly amazing at recognizing the

9:48humanity of the scientists in his group. And he was so good at getting us through times where we just needed to row the boat, but we were just feeling either down, he could recognize that. And it seems like something so simple, but he was incredible at it. And he's trained so many independent scientists. And I think it's through this magic of recognizing our humanity. Definitely. Well, it sounds like you've had some fantastic mentors along the way. And you mentioned that already in high school, you were starting to get interested in biology specifically. Were you interested in science before then?

10:20Always wanting to know how the world worked. And the fact that we could start to have some explanations for things was really cool. Even in chemistry, just how salts form and why heating something to a certain temperature would matter. That all sort of filled in some gaps that I thought was really fascinating. But I also loved my language classes. I was really into speaking German and loved math as well. So I was just sort of gravitating towards biology the most. And that continued in college as I also took more advanced math courses in physics and chemistry. But it was

10:55really biology where my heart was. That makes sense. So it sounds like you had committed to biology by college. Yeah. So what are some of the key steps, Taji, that then took you from that point as an undergraduate student to where you are today that were really pivotal for you? That's interesting because I think there were inflection points where I was applying for certain programs or experiences and then deciding which ones to take. Those seem like the more memorable inflection points. So I mentioned before that my mentor team or advising team at Bemidji State

11:27was really keen on getting me into summer programs. I was accepted to a couple. But when the offer from the University of Wisconsin-Madison came in, I was like, that's the one for me. And I was just really, really happy to be there. I just felt like the city of Madison really fit with where I wanted to be at that time. But yeah, I think I talk about this a lot with my own mentees of try to keep track of science that inspires you or scientists that you're intrigued by, because at some point you may want

12:00to come up with ideas of where your next step is. And so I had done that. I kept a little tally in a drawer in my desk in graduate school of scientists that I thought were doing great work. So the day I needed to find a postdoc, I just pulled that list out of my desk and started sending some emails. And that's how I ended up at the University of Pennsylvania. And then for my current faculty position, I saw the job ad for my current job and I didn't apply because one of the requirements was to teach neuroscience. And I was really intimidated by that and thinking, well, I can't do that.

12:36But then I met the people who had posted the ad at a meeting and they're like, no, you'd be perfect for this position. You're studying a lot of the things we care about and using the technologies we want to integrate. Please, please, please apply. So I did. That was an interesting point. So it was really just being out at a meeting and networking with people that led me to the University of Virginia. I think that's amazing. And maybe we'll back up. Can you talk a little bit about what your postdoc experience was like at UPenn? That was pretty incredible. So there was a group of labs at

13:06the University of Pennsylvania, and there's still a group to this day, but that's why there are about four research groups that were very focused on the immune response to parasites. And they met every week as a whole super group. And I was really impressed by this, just the quality of the science and the ideas that were kicking around. So it was incredibly inspiring. And it was around really, really smart people and really, really dedicated people. So that was a really interesting time because

13:37I was also for the first time, not as constrained by budget. It was just sort of like, what do you want to do and go and do it? So I developed a lot as a scientist. And I was in that position for about six years. And it was hard at first to not be frustrated with what I perceived as a lack of progress. Or maybe it was just getting a little impatient, like, oh, there's so much I need to know. And I just can't seem to get ahead of it. But it all did start to click and fall into place. But I just remember that time is being surrounded by such outstanding scientists. And I'm friends

14:13with so many of them to this day. We all had trained together. And it's so great to just connect with them now and be like, what are you experiencing? How's your science going? As we've navigated our postdocs together, and now we're running labs together. It's pretty great. I think that's wonderful. And I think having this little cohort of people that you can go through the career stages with together can be really helpful. So you can help each other when you get stuck. Absolutely. And you mentioned that you sort of happened upon this position at the University of Virginia that you weren't originally going to apply for and ultimately applied. Was it intimidating then

14:46entering this Department of Neuroscience with more of a background in immunology and microbiology, as you described? Yes and no. Yes, it was. And when I stepped into a human neuroanatomy lab for the first time with the task that the following week, I was going to teach basically the major blood vessels of the brain to medical students. And I was like, how am I going to learn this? But I did. But it's kind of been a cool gift to be sitting in a department with a different scientific focus than the one I was trained in, because I've been able to soak up new ideas, but also really be in this space,

15:23the intersection of neuroscience and immunology. So we're called the Center for Brain Immunology and Glia. Many of us have different backgrounds. Some are cellular immunologists, molecular immunologists, biochemists, peer neuroscientists. And so we all bring our different backgrounds to basically solve similar questions. And this cross-pollination has been really incredible. So in 2015, I was part of a group of scientists that rediscovered these lymphatic vessels that came out of the brain. And I feel like

15:54this neuroimmunology center was one of the only places where this work could really be done. So it's been a really special thing, because there are so many neuroimmunologists, we all speak this weird, really unique language. And that's what really drew me to the position. When I was interviewing, I was speaking with all of these graduate students who were talking about the same cells, these unique little cells, and we're really thinking deeply about that. And I'm like, oh, this is incredible. We're going to be able to do great things here. And that's been the case.

16:25Well, Taji, it sounds like you found a fantastic fit there at the University of Virginia. Is there a particular project that you are working on at the moment that you were just the most excited about and want to share in a little bit more detail with us today? I think I'll just chat a bit about a recent story that is getting a fair amount of attention. So we wrote a little press release on it. But it's a kind of a story that happens when you get a scientific result, and you go, oh, that's funny. And you continue to chase it. We had no idea that this story would end the way it did. But anyway, we got really interested in whether or not cells in the brain

17:01might die in order just to limit an infection. So this isn't a super new idea. But if you have a pathogen that needs to live inside of a cell, a very smart and good defense mechanism is just to lose that infected cell. So basically have it die for the greater good of the organism. And so this happens. But when we were thinking about a brain infection, we're like, well, that could be really bad because you start to lose these brain cells that you really need. But we should look into this. So the whole field of cell death has just expanded dramatically recently, defining that

17:36cells just don't die in sort of a chaotic way. But there's really a molecular cascade that controls cell death. So we were able to ask questions about the different modes of cell death. And so we were studying one that's mediated by this molecule, caspase-8. So this molecule, caspase-8, is most connected to a very clean form of cell death where cells are triggered by sort of a signal outside the cell just to die in a clean way that doesn't alarm anything. We're like, well, that could be a great way

18:09to get rid of this parasite in the brain, just trigger this cell death. And that'd be game over for the parasite. So we started to investigate that. So we used complex genetics to remove this caspase-8 gene from a ton of different cell types. We thought it might be important in neurons or maybe the astrocytes that are the support cells of the brain, or maybe even microglia, which are the immune cell of the brain. And so we worked our way through it and we were just getting an answer of, nope, not important. No, no, no. And so again, this is the importance of being persistent. And then we did

18:41a really fun experiment where we used parasites that when they invade cells, they inject basically a DNA recombining enzyme. And then if we cross that to a mouse where then cells become fluorescent when they see this enzyme, any cell that could see our parasite would become fluorescent. And we're like, well, this is neat. Maybe this will tell us which cells might be using this fancy cell death. And we went through all of this and all of a sudden we saw all these little green immune cells that we never

19:14thought about testing. And they were T cells. We're like, okay, this is cool. And we're like, wow, T cells, which are meant to kill pathogens, to kill this parasite, are actually getting infected themselves. This is really fascinating. But we never knew this was happening because normal, healthy mice always have caspase 8. So until we took this caspase 8 out of the T cells, we started to appreciate that T cells were absolutely dying in order to limit the parasite. So we were very

19:45surprised by this result. And we're like, well, how many pathogens even infect these specific CD8 T cells? And the answer was not very many, but all of the pathogens that do this mess with caspase 8. So we thought this was just really fascinating because as it turns out, any cell in our body can be really vulnerable to being infected. But sometimes pathogens only like certain cells, but often pathogens are developing ways to sort of circumvent the host or the immune system. And so

20:16a lot of viruses mess with caspase 8. So it's been a fun story. And we never thought we'd be studying this whole pathway in T cells. But we did. Well, Taji, this is a really exciting project. And you mentioned that there were, of course, these challenges and unexpected results along the way, and you just had to keep on pushing. And I think this is relatively common in science. And we love talking about these challenges, these struggles and the stories of persistence in science. So do you have another example of a major failure, a time that you really struggled with something that

20:47you could share with us? I think along the way, there's always the sort of classic, well, that didn't work. And why? And you're troubleshooting various things. But I thought I'd share that when I was a new postdoc. So I already had several years of training. And I had done a lot of injections on my own. But it's a whole other thing to be injecting an infectious microbe. I was so nervous at first, really nervous. And I just had these memories of having

21:17like take deep breaths and sweating and being like, I have no choice. But to do this, I got to get it together. And it was kind of those points where you start to say, Oh, I'm like cut out for this. But I got through it. It became easier every other time after that. But yeah, those are the points where I think everybody goes through those growth phases of something's really difficult. And you got to keep going. And not everything does get easier. But so many things do. When I tell this to my people all the time, that first one might really hurt. And it might take you more hours,

21:51but you're going to get better at it. And it's going to get easier. Absolutely. I think just getting more experience and performing under pressure can be very helpful. For sure. So then when you were standing there sort of hands shaking, holding this infectious agent that you had to inject, what kind of helped you calm yourself and make it through? It's kind of funny, but I was a little bit like, you are much larger than this mouse.

22:16You are in more control than you think. That and also just knowing that if I was jittery, that a deep breath, just trying to slow your heart rate is so key. So I'd psych myself up, take a few deep breaths, give myself the mantra of like, you are giant in comparison to this mouse, go in and get it. Well, Taji, I think this is a fantastic story. And I think really showcases just some of these hurdles that you face in science that people may not even think about as being part of the job that you just have to kind of go in and talk yourself through it.

22:48Absolutely. Well, Taji, thank you again so much for sharing one of these difficult moments in your career. And I think these are so common in science, which is one of the reasons why we love talking about them on our show to show listeners out there that they're not alone in these struggles. And I think to get through some of these challenges and struggles, it can be really helpful to have good collaborators and partners and suppliers that you can count on. So we'd like to take a moment to thank our sponsor, Innovative Research, and to talk about their portfolio of flow cytometry antibodies and matched isotype controls. For scientists developing biological assays, running immunophenotypic analyses,

23:23or characterizing and isolating cancer initiating or stem cells, Innovative Research's deep catalog of flow cytometry antibodies stands ready to support your research and provide you with the accurate and precise results you need, when you need them. Visit www.innov-research.com, that's www.innov-research.com, to view the entire line of Innovative Research flow cytometry products. And getting back to our conversation with Taji today, Taji, we don't just want to talk

23:55about the struggles and the difficult times. I'd love to talk about some of your successes as well. I know you've had many to celebrate over the years. Do you have a favorite success that you would like to share with us, whether it was a big win or just a small but particularly meaningful victory for you? There's a lot. I would say there are times when we know a whole research project has the green light, essentially. I think one of the challenges is that we can always come up with a lot of good ideas and a lot of hypotheses to test. And the harder part is that maybe we're right one out of

24:2910 times, sometimes worse, sometimes better than that. But we really try a lot. I can remember so distinctly when we've pulled in a piece of data that says, oh, we're on to something. There's something here. Sometimes that moment is like a what? I think related to this story I was telling about CD8 T cells and the parasite and caspase eight. I was on a plane and my graduate student sent me an email saying, hey, really interesting results. And I don't often buy internet on the plane,

25:04but you better believe it. I did. And I was like, I need to know. And sure enough, she was showing me that a ton of these T cells had encountered the parasite. And I sort of was like, oh, wow, this looks so unbelievable that I wonder if something went wrong. That was the moment where I was like, this story just got really interesting. So those are the moments and they don't always come with a ton of pomp and circumstance, but they come with maybe that little bit of like, oh, this is exciting. This is why I do this job. This is so fun that they really keep me going. But in general,

25:39we love to celebrate all of the wins in the lab, usually with mimosas and sometimes baked goods. So we do that for all exams and papers. Well, that sounds fantastic. I'm in. And you mentioned, I think you brought up such a good point here that this wasn't a momentous occasion. This was sort of like, oh, wow, this has gotten more interesting because I think science is a more protracted process, right? You get this cool result and you're like, wait, is it real? So then you have to go back and verify it. And then it's this long timeline where there's not an obvious place where you know where you should celebrate success.

26:11So how does that work in your lab? When do you decide that, OK, this is a success? Oh, that's, I think, a good example of everything we do now is guaranteed to have a timestamp on it, right? And just to realize from the date where we found something interesting to doing all the replicates and making sure that everything was done soundly and maybe in a different way to really double check and be thorough, we can be sometimes two to three years beyond that initial finding. And so that's why I find it particularly important to celebrate like the acceptance of a

26:47paper. Because at that point, that first initial discovery is so far in the past that we don't even connect the energy from that moment to that final paper. So we create all these times to celebrate success. And graduations also really exemplify just putting everything together for five to six years, like really important. So yeah, we try to make excuses to celebrate often. You're absolutely right. So much has gone into these successes by the time you're able to celebrate

27:19them. And I think that can be a good way to get the lab together and kind of take your mind off some of the everyday challenges and struggles that you're facing. But I think another way to maybe distract yourself from things that aren't going well in the lab is reading. And I love recommending books for all of our listeners out there. So Taji, do you have a favorite book, whether it's related to science or not, that you want to share with us today? The Poisonwood Bible by Barbara Kingsolver is one of my favorite books of all times. And I just reread it not too long ago. But I'll read anything that she writes. So she wrote Demon Copperhead, also fascinating

27:53book. And then one book I just finished was City of Thieves. And that was a particularly wonderful story for just transporting me to a whole other environment. It takes place during World War Two, and it's very cold. And it's in Leningrad, and there's food shortages. And I just felt that book, I felt it so much that when I was thinking about eating, I was like, even more grateful to have warm

28:23food and something to eat. So I just thought that book was a masterpiece in transporting me to a new place and making me feel like I was somewhere else. So I thoroughly enjoyed it. Definitely excellent recommendations for listeners out there who have not yet read Poisonwood Bible or City of Thieves. We will add those to our reading list on our website for you to find there. And speaking of transporting yourself to a different place, I think science does that a lot for you in terms of the travel opportunities that you get. So I'd love to talk about those next. Taji, do you have a favorite place in the world that your science has taken you?

28:55I have absolutely taken advantage of pairing my own travel with scientific travel. So I was always the one to be finding the meetings in the really beautiful and exotic places and traveling. One of my favorite places is there's a Gordon Research Conference site in Tuscany in Italy. And I've been fortunate to go to a couple meetings there. And near that meeting site, there's the Cinque Terre. So there's five cities on the Italian coast that are just magical. So every time I go to that meeting,

29:29I have to do a stopover in Cinque Terre and swim in the water and have some seafood. And it's just beautiful place. I highly recommend. Amazing. So are there specific sites in Cinque Terre that you think people must put on their itinerary? Absolutely. You want to hike between a few cities, stop in for a gelato. There's a lot of things to do. You want to sip limoncello in the evening, hit a beach. And the hiking is really spectacular. So hiking between the cities and catching

30:00a restaurant and just enjoying the views. Well, that sounds amazing. And I know these Gordon Research Conferences are really cool opportunities. What was it like the first time that you attended one of these? I remember going to one of these meetings and being the only person for my research group there. So it was a postdoc at the time. And so that can be fun and exciting. It really forces you to meet new people and make new friends. I remember that the second meeting had the Gordon Research Seminar, which is meant to bring trainees together before the meeting. And

30:32these are spectacular because you basically take all of these potentially people that are there on their own and connect them to all of the other trainees. And so then you can experience the rest of the meeting together. It was incredible for me to put faces with names of all the people I had been reading about their research to see them present and to be in an incredible venue. And one of the other things I absolutely remember about that meeting is that we had these really long sit-down dinners. We were in Italy and they walked around and instead of a standard maybe buffet line, we were

31:05served each course and the meals went on for two, two and a half hours. And so it really gave us time to connect with all the people that were at our table. So it sort of forced us to really enjoy those moments and get to know other people in the field. And I'm sure enjoy some really great food as well. Absolutely. Well, Taji, this sounds like a fantastic experience. And I think these travel opportunities are definitely something that's a perk of life as a scientist, but also the people that you get to work with are absolutely phenomenal. And I think oftentimes this is not how scientists are

31:38unfortunately portrayed in the media. We have these stereotypes of people being chaotic, messy, working by themselves in the lab as robots every day. And I think that's just not what so many scientists are like. So we try to break some of these stereotypes by giving people insight into these human moments in science, whether it's just fun lab traditions that spring up over time or just funny and fond memories that you've shared with colleagues. So Taji, do you have an example from your own experiences you could share that really shows this human side of science? I couldn't agree with that more. I think particularly as I transitioned out of the day-to-day

32:10lab work. So we start our careers learning all the techniques, being at the bunch, the grad school, postdoc. And then as we sort of become principal investigators or assistant professors, we start our own groups and we're immediately managers, something that we haven't necessarily been trained in. We've been trained in the science, how to do the experiment. And it instantly pushes us to need to understand other people, how they work, what motivates them, all of those things. And I feel like, luckily, I think I gravitated towards scientists early in my career that were particularly good

32:46at interacting with people. I don't think I was really thinking about that at the time, but I sort of could see this quality in the people I was working with. And they were all promoted to chair and deanships because of this. They all became leaders at the university because they were particularly good at interacting with people. And I would sort of say, I'm not sure if I've got a very specific story, but I think that that sort of idea just bleeds into every interaction that I have with

33:17my trainees of trying to figure out who they are as people, what motivates them to try to understand their why, to know what's going to get them out of bed every morning. And that's really different for every scientist I've worked with. But I've also known that that can be a really great source of strength as every day if we're just rowing the boat. What gets us out of bed? Reconnecting with our why, it can be so motivating because we might get distracted or be like, oh, that assay isn't working or I'm very frustrated with some personal interactions in the lab. But if you say, oh, I'm here

33:51because that joy of discovery, that knowing the unknown, that moving the needle to improve human health is really what's guiding you every day. That's hard to argue with. And that's pretty motivating for me. Definitely. And I think you brought up such a good point here in that connecting with people is key. And just being a people person in science, you're not just a scientific professional. You're a member of a department. You're a member of a lab. You're sort of part of all of these different communities and you have to bring your whole self to every day. Yes. I love this idea that you mentioned of kind of getting in people's heads to motivate them. I think

34:23being able to apply the psychology in your favor in the lab is beneficial as well. So do you have examples of how this shows up in everyday practice in your lab? Yeah, I'll just use an example that is so recent. So just before I came on this interview, I'm planning a retreat and we're going to do an art exercise where people are going to really reflect on why they're a scientist, but in an art form. We're going to make zines. I'm not sure if you're familiar with these, but these are really small little books that you can make out of

34:54a piece of paper that's an eight and a half by 11. So I'm organizing a little session at our upcoming retreat so that people can reflect on this. But I think as a mentor, I'm always trying to figure out what people might write down. So we're actually going to do that in art form in a couple of weeks, but I'm just really knowing what might appeal to them. Then also thinking about who they might work well with, because I think a lot of really amazing things do happen when scientists work together. Now spend more of my career trying to figure out these secrets, how to unlock and get

35:27people to collaborate. How do I think about synergy? And that might just be because people are thinking about a research project, but I also sometimes I'm like, I think they just might enjoy talking to one another. So I also do that as a part of my job is thinking about how can we get people to interact differently, whether through like a game or through art or something that might strengthen their connections as scientists, but maybe not always relying on science to be the connection. Definitely. And I really like that you're putting a lot of thought into cultivating the ideal lab

36:01environment to ensure success and productivity and kind of getting the best out of everybody, because I think that is exactly as you described, something you're not really trained to do until you're in the thick of it yourself. Absolutely. Well, wonderful to hear more about you in your lab group. And I think being able to harness their creativity and motivation and excitement about the science is critical for answering some of these big picture questions that you're working on. But if we took away the things that normally hold you back, whether that's things like funding or time or feasibility or equipment, whatever the case may be, what is the one question, Taji, that you would most

36:32want to answer with unlimited resources? That's a tough one, because I'm so torn between solving an infectious disease question versus solving something more related to neurodegeneration, something like Alzheimer's disease. But I think that that's kind of, it's also related to what I'm already doing in that trying to understand how you keep the brain healthy. So there is an infection caused by an African trypanosome. So trypanosoma brucii, the really dangerous form is trypanosoma brucii rudisiancia. It causes sleeping sickness. It is a pathogen that is basically if you get one

37:08parasite, it can be lethal. We don't know much about it. And I just feel like with some resources, we could go for it and develop some new therapies and really understand how disease happens. But at the same time, I could say the same thing about Alzheimer's disease. And I think where I'd start there is going back to square one and trying to design some better models of the disease. And that's really kind of a hard thing right now, because I think we are still trying to understand exactly what Alzheimer's disease is. So then it's really difficult to study in the lab unless we have

37:41that essential piece. And so I think I would dedicate a lot of time to rethinking that. That would take a lot of time and a lot of resources. So I think it's one of these questions or one of these research areas that would really benefit from unlimited budget and unlimited time. Well, Taji, these are both excellent dream projects. Tackling these important diseases that are a problem across the globe is really important. And I appreciate you dreaming big with us on the show today. I know it was a tough choice. Yes. And I know you've shared a lot of insights and experiences with us today, but I'd love to end by talking about advice. I think for a lot of our

38:15listeners out there, if they're at a pivotal point in their career, it can be helpful to hear from somebody who's been there. So do you have a piece of advice that really helped you at some point that you can share with everybody out there today? One of the best pieces, and it's a more specific time, but I think it's as people are developing their research program. It's always a good reminder that when you start, you are the most trained person in the lab. And that almost seems obvious, but it also sort of is saying, maybe you should be in the lab as much as you can at

38:45first. Really good advice that really launching your research program, being a big part of it at first was helpful for me. And I do get that advice often as people are starting their own groups. Definitely. I think making sure you have a solid foundation is critically important. Absolutely. Yes. Well, wonderful advice. Taji, is there any other last piece of advice or maybe a last note of inspiration that you would like to leave everybody with at the end of our conversation today? In this business of science, we're doing experiments, we're doing a lot of things, but we do work with other people. And sometimes as you work with people, there will just be conflicts.

39:21There can just be interpersonal dynamics. Sometimes those aren't as easy to control, but they exist and they can get us down. I've often felt when I've been frustrated with work and just wondering if science is for me, I will say, what am I really upset about right now? Am I upset about the interpersonal dynamics or the science? And I'll be like, ah, I love science. There's no problem there. And it'll help me just sort of say, let me try to work on whatever

39:53issues going on, but just be reminded that I do love science so much. And I think that can be helpful when the going gets tough, trying to separate out whatever sort of extra stress or strife might be there to be like, is that really science or is that something else? And it can help me reorient and keep my eye on it, that I love my job. I love what I do. That's been really helpful. Oh, definitely. I think taking that moment to reflect on, do I hate this project or am I just

40:24mad about the tone of reviewer number two? 100%. Yep. Put everything in perspective. Well, Taji, fantastic advice. Wonderful note to end on. And if our listeners want to learn more about you and the exciting work that you're doing, what is the best way for them to get more information? So I do have a website that's through the University of Virginia in my home department, which is neuroscience. There's also a list of our publications and Google Scholar under my name, and you can easily find my email address from there. But yes, reach out. Love to hear from you. Wonderful. Well, listeners definitely get connected. If you have specific questions,

40:57check out Taji's lab website to learn more about her amazing work. And Taji, it's been such a pleasure to chat with you on the show today. Thank you so much for your time. It's been fantastic. Thank you. Well, I appreciate you spending your day with us and listeners. It's wonderful to have you here with us as well. We hope you'll join us again next time for another episode of People Behind the Science.