857: Mathematician and Communicator with an Eye for Modeling Cataract Development in Populations Over Time - Dr. Talithia Williams

Introduction

0:00Hi, everyone. I'm Dr. Marie McNeely, and I'm delighted to have you here with me for episode 857 of the People Behind the Science podcast. Today, we are rebroadcasting our interview with Dr. Talithia Williams. Listeners, Talithia is a mathematician who does disease modeling. She's been working to create models of the rates at which groups of people develop cataracts over time. Left untreated, cataracts can cause partial or complete blindness, but treatment isn't accessible to everybody around the world. So identifying the areas of greatest

0:31need is key for making use of limited resources. And in our conversation, Talithia discussed her career and her experiences in life and science. So I hope you enjoy this episode of People Behind the Science. Every day, discoveries are made that will change our understanding of the world around us. Dr. Marie McNeely is here to bring you the brilliant minds who are making these discoveries so they can share their incredible stories and take you on an amazing journey. Welcome to People Behind the Science.

Guest Introduction

1:10Hello, everyone, and welcome to the People Behind the Science podcast. Today, I am thrilled to speak with our wonderful guest, Dr. Talithia Williams. So Talithia, welcome to our show today. How are you? I'm fantastic. How are you? I am doing quite well myself, and I'm excited to have you here with us today and to be able to learn more about you and the work that you do. But before we dive into our official interview questions, Talithia, let me take a moment to introduce you to our listeners. So listeners, Talithia here is an associate professor of mathematics and associate dean for research

1:43and experiential learning at Harvey Mudd College. In addition, she is host of the PBS series Nova Wonders and author of the book Power in Numbers, The Rebel Women of Mathematics. Talithia received a bachelor's degree in mathematics from Spelman College. And while she was an undergraduate student, she conducted research at the NASA Jet Propulsion Laboratory. After graduating, Talithia went on to earn a master's degree in mathematics from Howard University, a master's degree in statistics from Rice University, and a PhD in statistics from Rice University as well. Prior to joining the faculty

2:13there at Harvey Mudd College, Talithia conducted research at the NASA Jet Propulsion Laboratory, the NASA Johnson Space Center, and the National Security Agency. Talithia has received numerous awards and honors throughout her career, including the Mathematical Association of America's Henry L. Alder Award for Distinguished Teaching by a Beginning College or University Mathematics Faculty Member, as well as the Claremont College's Diversity Mentor Award. And in our conversation today, Talithia is going to talk both about her life and her work. So Talithia, we're excited to learn more about you as a person, as well as as a scientist and mathematician.

Life Outside Science

2:47But can you start by talking about the life outside of science and how you spend your free time? Oh, Marie, what do I do? I mean, so many things. So I'm a mom and a wife. My husband and I have three beautiful boys that are about to hit teenage years. So they're pretty active and closed. I spend a lot of time with my family. I've been married about 15 years. So that's been a really great, solid relationship. In addition to that, I host a TV show when I'm not just being a professor. So I've gotten to work on Nova Wonders on PBS. So that usually involves a lot of traveling and kind

3:22of being in front of the television screen, which is different from being a college professor. And the past couple of years, I've been writing a book that came out. So that's sort of my first foray into becoming an author. So that's been neat to kind of grow that side of my personality as well. And then I really am a person of faith. So I love spending time with my local church and volunteering and helping the people in my community in that way as well.

Career Path

3:47That is fantastic. So we've talked a little bit about life outside of science, but we are going to talk about the science and math that you do next. So I'm curious, when people ask you, maybe that dreaded question, what do you do? What do you tell them? I used to tell them I'm a mathematician. And then they get this look on their face like, I hate math. And I remember it like it was yesterday. I was in the fourth grade. And so I would get like all these horrible stories. So now I say I do disease modeling and people are like, oh, diseases, tell me more. So I like that it gets a better response.

Cataract Modeling

4:18One of the areas that I work in is in cataract modeling. So looking at how people develop cataract over time, the rate at which different groups of people get cataract in order to target populations so that they can be removed and their sight can be restored. So in the US, that's not really an issue here because cataract surgery is quick. You go in and half an hour later, you can see again. I mean, it's not even something that we really talk about. But in other countries and in other parts of the world, people are blind because they have cataracts. And the surgery could literally restore

4:53their sight in a matter of minutes. So I got to partner with the World Health Organization to look at some cataract data for different countries in Africa and to try to model the rate at which different groups of people develop cataracts over time. And the goal of that was really for the World Health Organization. When they get ophthalmologists that want to volunteer to work in these countries, they really want to send them to places that have the highest need. And until we had looked at and modeled this data, they didn't really know what areas had high needs. So we were able

5:23to develop a statistical model to do that. So that's been really exciting and impactful. And it's the way that people are like, oh, that's so cool. Like, by the way, that was a math model.

5:36So it's neat to be able to connect people to the work I do and then tell them, oh, by the way, I'm a mathematician. Because usually when I would lead with that, it was like, oh. Conversation killer right there. Yeah. Totally. Now, if I didn't want to talk on a plane, I intentionally say, I'm a mathematician. And they're like, oh, don't talk to me. I'm like, okay.

5:54That is phenomenal. Well, I love that you've put the spin on it to really capture people's interest and excitement from the get-go. And I think that is so important for scientists when they're communicating with people who maybe aren't very interested in science, or maybe do kind of have this fear of math and statistics and technical information. That's right. Because I feel like sometimes I might be the only scientist or mathematician that people see in a day or month. Even though in my world, I'm always around scientists and engineers and mathematicians and statisticians, other people don't operate in that space. So

6:26what I want them to leave with after they have an interaction with me and not that I'm trying to get them to switch and to go back to school and get a PhD in mathematics, but just really gain an appreciation that they may not have had before.

Motivation and Inspiration

6:38Absolutely. Well, I look forward to talking more about the work that you do as we go through our conversation today to Lithia. But I do want to take a moment to talk a little bit about motivation and inspiration. I think we've talked about so many different things that you do in your life, and it can be hard to do it all. So do you have a favorite quote or a saying or something that really motivates and inspires you? So my husband and I work out regularly. So we're always listening to these songs and anything to motivate you to keep pushing in the gym. But there's this quote that is in one of the songs that I

7:08listened to. And it's a Will Smith quote, and it's long, but he says, there's a redemptive power that making a choice has. Rather than feeling like you're in effect of all the things that are happening to you, just make a choice. Just decide what it's going to be, who you're going to be, and how you're going to do it. Just decide. And from that point, the universe will get out of your way. So he gives this quote actually in an interview. And in the interview, he's just sort of talking about how he made this choice in his life, the type of actor that he wanted to be,

7:40the type of movies that he wanted to do. And from that choice, the universe started moving out of the way to make room for his dream. And in a lot of ways, I feel that same type of favor. Like I feel like once I made a choice, like, okay, I am going to get a PhD. And then all of a sudden doors are opening and opportunities are showing up. And then I had to be bold enough to step into those opportunities as well. So deciding that I want to write a book to highlight the lives of women mathematicians, we're going to do this, even though it feels so intimidating and at times impossible.

8:13Like this quote is really grounding for me. It's like the universe is going to move out of the way so that you can manifest your dream, but I got to keep pushing forward. I can't just stop. So I really love that quote. It also helps push me in the gym when I'm ready to quit. Well, you're at least making the choice to get to the gym, which is something I'm not good at lately. And even the part about not feeling like you're just an effect of what's happening around you. I get to choose the experience. It's not that life is happening to me. I am choosing the life that I want to lead, not just sort of accidentally moving through it. So I really appreciate that

8:48about his quote. Definitely. And I like the part that you highlighted the second portion. You don't just make that choice. You have to take action, even if it's something that's a little bit scary. That's right. And it usually is, right? If it's a big choice, it usually is scary. The easy ones that we feel we can do aren't the ones that are intimidating. Exactly. Well, wonderful motivation to share it with me and our listeners today. We'll have to bring it with us to the gym next time. And I'd love to hear a little bit next to Lithia about some of the people who might be motivating or inspiring you in your daily life or maybe at

9:18some point along your career path. So do you have particular role models or mentors who've

Role Models and Mentors

9:22really had a big impact? Absolutely. I think especially being an African-American woman in math growing up, I didn't really see images of women who look like me who were mathematicians or who did science. So I had a mother, my mother, Dolores Daniel, who's still alive, was also a gifted elementary school teacher. So she would come home with all of these like activities that she'd do with her students and I would end up doing them. You were the guinea pig. That's right. And I enjoyed it. So that really sort of grew me. And I think her expectation that

9:55I could do it and that I was smart and I could be anything and do anything. I think all parents say that and mean it. But for me to see her believing that I could do that. So I think she was sort of my first role model in terms of really seeing someone who literally looked like me, but who was successful, gone to school, was teaching and motivating other young kids. It wasn't until I got to Spelman College for undergraduate school that I met an African-American woman with a PhD in mathematics. And it was sort of shocking to me at the time. I was like, oh, wow, here's a Black woman

10:26with a PhD in math. And I remember looking up the number. And at the time, this was in 1997, there were less than a hundred Black women PhDs in math. Oh, wow. And I was like, really? And then when I did the math at the rate that we were producing Black women PhDs, I could be in the top 100. Like if I went to graduate school and graduated in another seven to 10 years, I was like, we're only producing like two a year. And somehow that floored me. But one of my professors there, Edda Faulkner, who was maybe the seventh or eighth or ninth Black

10:59woman to get a PhD in math, she was one of my mentors and one of my teachers. So she really pushed me to go to graduate school. Because Marie, I had not planned to go to graduate school. I was like, I'm getting an undergraduate degree. Going to get a job. It's going to be great. Yeah. Well, like I'm going to be set for life. And she's like, you should go to grad school. I was like, why would I do that? More school? Yeah. And then she talked to me about income and like, oh, with a master's degree, you can make this. With a PhD, you can make this. I was like, so now how do I get into this PhD thing you're talking about? So she was really the one who saw me as a graduate student and saw me getting a PhD.

11:33And when I looked at her, I'm like, well, if you did it in the 60s and 70s, when society as a whole was just such a different place then, surely it would be easier for me to do it in the new millennium or so I thought. Probably my third role model was Claudia Alexander, who has since passed away. She was my NASA mentor. So the three summers that I worked at the Jet Propulsion Laboratory, I was assigned to Claudia Alexander as her mentee. So she was just young and beautiful and African-American woman. And she just sort of embodied everything that I wanted

12:07to become. Like she had a great job and her hair was gorgeous. And in some ways it seems shallow, but it wasn't. Part of me also wanted to be a young woman who was working, but still able to do fun things and buy nice things and dress a certain way. So she really embodied that. And she was smart. She had a PhD in space physics and I was like, wow, she's got beauty and brain. I'm like, I can do that. You can put the two together and still be cool. So Claudia gave me that example. Absolutely. Well, I love that you highlighted these kind of early mentors and specifically

12:39this one who had that conversation with you like, hey, you should go to graduate school because I think for so many students, that's not something that's on their radar. That's not something they've ever, like you mentioned, seen themselves doing. So just having that conversation is enough to completely change someone's career trajectory. That's right. It's amazing how you can speak into someone's life just by asking them or offering something to them that they had never considered before. Definitely. Well, I love hearing about some of the people who motivated and inspired you, but I want to talk a little bit next about your path. And we talked about how your mom

Education and Career

13:11was a big influence early on in your life and kind of getting you interested in maybe academic studies and math and science in general. But can you tell us a little bit where you went next from being this curious kid starting to do these fun activities with your mom? I was always sort of fascinated by science and I did okay in math. I wasn't like a math genius or anything. My senior year in high school, I took an AP calculus course and I took other AP courses as well because my friends were taking them and I was like, well, that's my study group. So I guess I'll

13:42sign up for these AP classes. But in my AP calculus class, I had a teacher who really affirmed my mathematical ability. And after class one day, Marie, he says, Talithia, you should think about majoring in math when you go to college. And I remember thinking like, why would this older white guy in his mid 50s, maybe early 60s, which I realized as I get older, is not old at all. Not old. No, no, no. He was a young man. But at the time, you know, my 17 year old brain was like,

14:14what are you talking about, grandpa? So I was like, here's this person who looks so different from me, who believes I could major in math, really? And not if I go to college, but when I go to college. So my mind was just sort of blown away. And again, it's not like my mom probably hadn't said the same thing, but she has to say that. Like she's my mother. Right. This is the external validation. That's right. Mr. Norman, I'm like, he doesn't have to pull me to the side after class to say anything to me. So that was really a pivotal moment because I realized that someone else saw me as a

14:48mathematician in spite of my race, in spite of my gender. He saw my mathematical ability and he affirmed it. And it wasn't like I was the top student. I was probably like middle of the road, maybe a B minus average. It wasn't like he saw a genius in his classroom at all. It was later a 10 year reunion. I realized he did that to every student. Oh, well, you should think about maybe that. I was like, oh, OK. But at the time I felt really special. And in some ways it worked. So when I got to Spelman, I could see myself as a math major. And then I also had examples

15:20of people who look like me who majored in math. I started a PhD program at Howard University in math after I graduated from Spelman. And while I was there, I took a biostatistics class as an elective. And that was the first time I'd taken a stats course. So all of a sudden I'm playing around with data. And we were looking at this data set of pregnant women who either smoked or didn't. And then we had data on the length of gestation, which is the time that the baby was in the womb.

15:51And then the birth weight of the baby and like the mother's ethnicity. So our teacher said, we're going to look at this data. We're going to model it to see what information we can gain from it. I'm like, OK, you got mothers, whether or not they smoke, like where'd they get this data set from? Like what mom smokes? Like everybody knows that you don't smoke if you're pregnant. So this was a data set that came before the cigarette surgeon general's warning that now is on every package of cigarettes that you would buy. So we looked at this data and I said, oh, my goodness, look, for moms who smoke, their babies were being born after maybe 33,

16:2634 weeks. And they were like three or four pounds. And for women who didn't smoke, they had full term, healthy, heavier babies. And our teacher says this is the data that was used to require the surgeon general's warning to be placed on cigarettes, because prior to whatever date it was, 1960s or so, women who were pregnant with smoke because there was no data to suggest that it did any damage to your baby. And in fact, the tobacco industry fought this result because they said, oh, it's not true.

16:57It's not the tobacco. It's something else that's causing it. And we were all like, what? No way. So that was the moment where I realized the power of data and the power of data to tell a story or to unveil an inequity or harm the way that a product is harming a consumer. And I thought, I want to know how to do this. How do you communicate? How can you change policy with information, with data? So that's what got me thinking about a PhD in statistics. And Howard didn't and still doesn't have a statistics department. So I left there with a master's degree in math and looked for stats,

17:32PhD programs, which is how I ended up at Rice. And then when I got to Rice, it was great. I spent five years there, had a wonderful advisor, and then finished my PhD in 2008. Gotcha. So then tell us what you did after your PhD. I know you've had some really cool research experiences afterwards, both at NASA and then at the National Security Agency. Yeah, I spent a summer at the National Security Agency. Of course, I can't tell you what I did. That's right.

17:58I loved working at the NSA. I think part of what was so great about it is that everybody is just so down to earth. And a lot of them are like NSA lifers. So they've been there and they showed me the ropes. I mean, it was just a really great group of mathematicians to work with. The other thing I loved about it is because you have top secret security clearance, you cannot take any work home. You can't talk about work like when you go to lunch. If you just go to the cafeteria or anytime you step out of your area, you can't talk about any of your work because everyone in the

18:30building doesn't have the same security clearance. But in a way, it then forced you to interact with people differently. So we'd go to lunch and it's like, well, we can't talk about work. So what'd you do this weekend? It just created this really great environment of a collegial group of people because you were forced anytime you were outside of the office space to talk about other things. And then I think in terms of work-life balance, it was great because I'd go home and I couldn't do anything. I couldn't send emails. I couldn't take work home. I couldn't do work at home. So it was like, oh, when I left work, I literally left work behind. Nowadays, it's just harder for

19:05people to do that. Work absorbs every moment of your day. But the beauty of working at the NSA was it couldn't because it was top secret. And then my summers at NASA were just amazing. It was fun to be in that environment. We all called ourselves rocket scientists. So every time there was a joke about... It's not rocket science. It's not rocket science. Oh, but if it weren't, I could explain. It was just so corny. We had like these rocket science. Why? Yes, I am a rocket scientist. And it was just fun to work around

19:36that group. I got to work on the Europa mission probe. So for that team, we are trying to send a thermal probe to Europa, which is one of Jupiter's moons, to sort of melt through the icy layer and see if there's life underneath. So my team was tasked with trying to develop a solution that could sterilize the outside of the probe. So if we send a probe to Europa, the last thing you want to do is have bacteria around your probe. Contaminate Europa. Yeah. You can go in and you contaminate like, oh, look, we found, oh, wait, we brought that with us. So

20:08you want a solution that's strong enough to clean the outside of the probe, but then you also don't want to introduce new bacteria. And so we got to play around with different concentrations of different liquids to try to see what could sterilize it, but also have an environment where new bacteria won't grow in. So I must say you've painted a wonderful picture of both working at the NSA and working at NASA.

Career Choices

20:30And I have to ask, how did you decide then what you were going to do next? What path you were going to take, whether it was going to be academic or in one of these types of institutions like NASA or NSA? I talked to my advisor about it. So my PhD advisor is such a great mentor. And so I said, what do you think would be good for me? And she's like, you know, I think you would do great as a professor at any institution. She wanted me to go to more of a research one. And I said, yeah, but I want to have a family. I don't want to be stressed out. So my idea of what a research professor does was just working all the time. She said, well, have you thought about liberal arts

21:02colleges? I'd come to Spelman and Howard and Rice. So I was like, oh, I love those experiences. The liberal arts environment. So then I went on the market to look for tenure track positions at liberal arts colleges. I'd also recently gotten married a year or so before I defended my PhD. So I kind of wanted a life where I could just sort of settle in and be married and start thinking about a family. So the position at NASA would have been fine. It would have been just sort of a regular nine to five. Same with the NSA. I don't know that we would have wanted to move to the DC area to be in

21:35the NSA. And so we were trying to be also closer to family. So we were just sort of balancing a lot of different things as well. Gotcha. And now you are at Harvey Mudd and you're doing lots of cool things. So Talithia, I'd love to talk a little bit more about your current projects. Is there one in particular you want to tell us more about today? There is. The main project that I've been working on is probably the NOVA show, which has come to a close. We're talking now about a NOVA Wonders Part 2. So that's the really exciting thing that's possibly in the works. But for the NOVA Wonders show, this is a show that came out on PBS this past

22:10April. And they reached out to me about three years ago after they saw my TED Talk and said, might you be interested in hosting a six-part documentary series on some of science's big questions? And I'm like, sure. Yeah. And next you're going to ask me for my bank account. And so I wrote back some little reply and I just sort of kept going because I thought, this isn't real. Anyway, this email dialogue happened over the course of about a year. And I was like, oh, I think they're serious. We had some meetings where they met me and

22:40they were really trying to see, could I engage them enough? Could I hold an audience? Could I keep you from clicking away from the TV screen long enough to sort of stay engaged? And I think they were pretty pleased. And then we started taping. So we taped in Boston for the past two and a half years. So at one point I was just like, is this really going to happen? It seems like all I do is fly and tape and tape. I did a lot of voiceover reading in LA. So I drive into Los Angeles where there's a ton of studios and I go into a studio and record. I'm like, oh my

23:11gosh, that's my voice in the background of these shows. So then when it came out, it was this media frenzy. All of a sudden I went from not nobody. People had sort of known me from the TED Talk, but the platform sort of literally overnight changed. And all of a sudden I was a science communicator. So that's been really fun for me to explore, working with PBS, working with NOVA, thinking about how we can communicate science in an exciting way that's going to really invigorate the next generation of kids that are coming behind us.

23:41Absolutely. So I have to ask, was it hard during this maybe two and a half year period where you're trying to squeeze in these extra recordings, fly back and forth from California to Boston? How did you balance everything? Oh, I have an amazing husband. Let me just say that. Yeah. And my father-in-law was living with us at the time. So we were juggling, not just kids, but we had elder care and responsibilities. So it wasn't easy. I think my faith really sustained me a lot during this period. I was just, I don't know if I can do this. My kids were also really,

24:13even though they were sad that mommy was gone, we FaceTimed a lot and it felt like I could be there. And I could see them sometimes at FaceTime to sleep. So like I just turned FaceTime on, like I'm going to go to sleep. I'm going to set my phone up right here and you just get to hear mommy snore. So like small things helped them to really feel connected. And they were just so proud. That's the other thing. I think they felt like any success that I had was success for our whole family. So even the kids were just super excited to get on board and cheer me on as well. So it was

24:44definitely a team effort. Oh, that is awesome. So Talithia, what was it like then the first time you watched one of those finished episodes? I was like, oh my gosh, they made me look so good. That makeup artist, she was just, what? I was amazed. I mean, in the studio, we taped in, in the design district in downtown Boston. So we were just sort of in this open warehouse area that was not glamorous and look like, okay, it's an open space. How are we going to make this work? Yeah.

25:14Right. Like this public broadcasting, oh, this must be low budget. But I didn't know that was on purpose because of course they do all this magic in the background. So when the show came out, I'm like, oh, where did these colors come from? And this stuff is happening around me as I speak. And then all of a sudden it comes together. A lot of the background readings that I did about these scientists and here we are in Chile with such and such a person. So all of a sudden I'm like, oh, wow, here's the footage of that person in Chile, right? So it just really came alive in a way that

25:47throughout the process, I couldn't see because I only saw my little part, my little face on the screen without all of the glitz and glamour that they add to it. So the graphic artists and the producers do so much. We're sort of on the front line as the host, but it's really the work that they put in that makes it the show that you see on the screen. Because otherwise it's just me talking and you would turn from that really quickly. It was so much fun. Well, me and our listeners are excited for this potential second series or second season of the

26:18Nova Wonders that you mentioned then. And we sort of hinted at the challenges in talking about just the process of being engaged in this program. And I think it's so important to talk about these challenges in careers in science, because most people don't get to hear about them. So Talithia, I want to ask you today, do you have a favorite story about a failure or a challenge of your own that you can tell us about? I think my major struggle was with my dissertation. When I was finishing my dissertation, literally I was practicing my presentation with my advisor. I was going to

26:49defend my PhD the next day. So I'm going through and she's like, that looks good. And I'm talking about my data. So I had simulated data, which is just fake data. And I had a real data set. So I written this model to look at rainfall and predict rainfall. And on my simulated data, my model worked beautifully. Oh, look, the data goes in, look at how I model, analyzes it, and accurately predicts the rainfall rate within this air. But then I try running on a real rainfall event and it crashes. Future work is to get my model to run on real data. Thank you. Questions. And she's

27:25just like, you can't defend if your model doesn't work on real data. And I was like, but I've been trying for six months, but it just doesn't work on this data set. I don't know what's wrong. Like my model is great. Look, it works on simulated data. Like, why does that not count? And she said, well, you used your model to simulate the data. Of course, it's going to work on that data set. I was like, nah, stop it that way. You're starting to sweat a little bit. But you put it that way. So she said, well, if you can't get it to work on your data set, you can't defend tomorrow. And I'm like, we've got a party. People have come in. I got to defend. So we went back

27:59up to my office and she was standing over my shoulder as I pulled up my code. And mind you, Marie, I have pages and pages and pages of computer code. And it's not just like three lines of here's my model. It's pages. So I really just panicked. And I was just like, oh God, I am not about to defend. It's come down to this moment. And it's about to be another three months because I don't know what else to do to get my model to work. So that was one of the rare times that I think I actually heard the voice of God speak to me. And I recall because I thought it was so crazy. And he was like,

28:31oh, you should cut out the beginning and the end of your data set and just feed the middle in. I was like, feed the middle of my data? Who does that? Yeah. But okay, here's this random thought to just feed the middle of the data. So I did. I ran that through and it worked. And these graphs started popping up. And she said, oh, that looks good. Put that in your dissertation, presentation, and I'll see you tomorrow. So I'm like, print free. Don't touch anything. Yeah. So what happened was my data was a rainfall event. So at the beginning, the rain amounts are low.

29:03In the middle, that's when all the rain is happening. So you've got a lot of data. And then at the end of the rain event, the rain starts to tail off. So my code was crashing when it had rain that was less than about an inch or so of rain. It couldn't really accurately model that. So I just needed to give it the bulk of the rain event. And it could do a great job of prediction. I didn't know that at the time. I was just like, okay, fine. This weird idea came. You know, I don't know where it came from. It worked. Yeah. So that was probably the most stressful time. I think I really just potentially had a failure and just really felt kind of backed up in the corner,

29:36literally, because my advisor was sort of behind me. And so there was just this high pressure moment where I really needed to step up and perform in the moment. And fortunately, it worked out after I cut my data. So how was the dissertation presentation the next day? It was great. And my husband had planned a surprise party. So I didn't even know there was a party. So that was wonderful. It was catered and had a great time. I think the most special moment is when your advisor comes out and says, congratulations, Dr. Williams. And like, that's the first time someone calls you doctor. And you're like,

30:07really? Are you kidding me? So that was a really special moment. Well, that is amazing. And Talithia, thank you so much for sharing this story, because

Challenges and Successes

30:15I think it's a really good example of some of the challenges that you face. Your PhD work is never going to be easy. I would hope that most people don't get in the situation where they're sort of stuck at the final moment right before they're supposed to defend. But you made it through. And I think that's awesome that you didn't just give up and throw the towel and say, well, we're going to cancel the dissertation tomorrow. That's absolutely right. Well, thank you for sharing one of the tough times, but I'd love to talk about one of your successes next. That story had a happy ending, but can you tell us another successful or happy ending story today? Yeah. When I first got to graduate school, part of what was challenging being a woman and an

30:52African-American person was really finding community. And I was the only female, the only Black person in my cohort at Rice. So in some ways that was really isolating. But for me, I really used it as an opportunity to reach out to the other guys who were in my first year cohort and kind of build community. So my first year there, I sent out an email to the guys and I said, hey, let's meet on Wednesdays to go to lunch and then we'll do our homework in the library together. Let me know how many people you can take in your car to live here.

31:22So they wrote back and they're like, oh, I can take three people. I don't have a car. I need a ride. So I sort of organized the nine of us and we ended up becoming one of the closest classes of students because we formed this unified group. And for me, it was twofold. I could see where everyone else had a partner or two and I was sort of the lone person out. And instead of looking at that situation and saying, oh, what was me? Who's going to be in my group? Who wants to do homework with me? I was like, this is where the action's happening. Either you're going to be in the

31:56action or you're not. We're going to go eat and then we're going to do homework. You want to be in this group. So it was great because that was sort of my way of saying, we're going to be a team together. We're going to work together. And that's exactly what we did. So sort of taking what could be seen as a negative, because often for women and especially women of color who go into STEM or math or statistics, you will find yourself in a place where you're the only one of your type. So for me, I had to make a conscious decision that I was going to build a community, even if that community

32:27didn't necessarily look like me. Definitely. And I'm sure this community building effort was appreciated maybe by a couple of the other introverts in the group who were too scared. Oh, they loved it. It was so great. Yeah. Well, that is amazing. And I understand you do kind of continue this community building and outreach and mentoring in some of the work that you do today. So can you talk a little bit about some of these efforts and just kind of the promotion of STEM that you do? Yeah, I've really been active in especially trying to get girls and girls of color excited about opportunities in STEM and in mathematical sciences and data science. So for the past nine years,

33:01we've had a conference at Harvey Mudd where I partnered with a local nonprofit group called the Sacred Sisters. And we bring in girls from Southern California to come to campus for a Saturday and do hands-on sort of STEM workshops to get mentored by women professionals to form community. The first year that we had this conference, it was great. The girls were having a good time. Parents hung around. And I'm still like, it's from eight to three, come back at three. Your child will be fine.

33:31Your daughter will be fine. We didn't order enough food for you. And these parents were like, I'm not leaving my baby girl on this college campus. I don't know these people. So we did this impromptu sort of conversation with parents and realized that they really needed a community as well. So every year since, we've done a concurrent parents workshop and we bring in counselors. So Nikki Mitchell is a local counselor at Claremont High. And we bring her in to talk to our parents. Many of our parents and our girls come from schools that are under-resourced. So they

34:02might have one guidance counselor for the entire school. So for parents, it's really a way to get, like, here are resources from a counselor at one of the top high schools in the state. And she gives them everything that she gives her parents. So what's been wonderful for me is to build a support group among the parents because we can inspire girls for a Saturday. But ultimately, when they're coming home with a math problem and they're stuck, I need the parents to say, here's how you can do this. Oh, here's the number we can call. I need them to encourage and push. I'm not there to do it.

34:35So having the parents and having them see that they're really an important part of their daughter pursuing STEM and getting excited about math. And here's what not to say. I never use that. Or I don't know. I can't do it. Like, no, no, no, no, no. Here's what you say. That's a great question. Let me help you get the answer. Let's find a way to answer this. So just kind of giving them tools to help them encourage their kids to get excited about and stay interested in STEM has been amazing for me. Well, Talithia, I absolutely love this. And I really appreciate all the work that you're doing

35:07there. And I understand that in terms of communication efforts, as we mentioned in our introduction, you've recently published a book that really highlights women in mathematics. So we'll definitely put that on our website for our listeners out there. Can you tell us a little bit about this book? Yeah. So the book is called Power in Numbers, The Rebel Women of Mathematics. And it's funny. So I didn't really care for the rebel women part. The publisher came back and was like, oh, that'll sell rebel women. I was like, what were they rebelling against? They did math. They weren't

35:37rebels. I wanted it to be subtitled Women Mathematicians with Attitude, like ADD. Oh, that's punny. I know. They were like, no, no one's going to really go over that. But yeah, you could tell sort of, yeah, I was like geeking out over the puns. But rebel women got the vote. Part of writing this book was just to highlight the amazing women that have come before me and current women. Two thirds or so of the book are women who are still alive with us today. Young mathematicians, young women, women of color who are doing mathematical

36:12sciences and not just in academia. Some work for the government or work for industry. I wanted to write a book that I would have wanted to see when I was growing up. So I felt like growing up, I didn't know that there were women who look like me who did math and could do fun things with it. So that's really kind of what I wanted this book to highlight. It's very illustrative. So it's not just like a boring, like want, want, want. It's not a ton of text. It's really these vivid images of these women, the work they did, where they're from, what challenges they faced, just really kind of painting a whole picture of them

36:47in their life. Not just the mathematics that they did, but also kind of their place in history and what they're excited about now. So that's really what I loved about the book. I remember when I went to see the movie Hidden Figures, which I loved, I was crying in the theater and I was just like, I worked at NASA. I had no idea these women worked at NASA. Why didn't anyone tell me that there were women like me who did math for NASA? Like if anybody should have known that I feel like I should have known, I should have been able to rattle

37:17off these women. So I'm in the movie learning about them for the first time and somehow feeling violated, like how dare someone not tell me. So I feature several of them in the book as well. Some of the ones, Katherine Johnson, who was one of the main figures, but also other women who work there. This is what I want to leave to the next generation to hopefully inspire them in a way that I would have wanted to be inspired when I was growing up. That is phenomenal. And I can attest, listeners, it is an excellent book and there are a lot of pictures. I appreciate that. It's not the wall of text.

37:48It's not. It's like a coffee table book. Like, oh, okay, I can share this with folks. Exactly. Well, Talithia, like I said, we will put that on our website. Are there any other books you'd like to recommend for me and our listeners today? Well, speaking of Hidden Figures, it's a wonderful book. If you've seen the movie, the movie is great, but the book, of course, goes into a lot more detail. You'll see some things that happened in the movie that weren't quite accurate. So it's nice to compare the two and really read about the lives of these women and how during that time as a country, we really came together and worked together for a common cause. And I think especially nowadays, it's such a

38:23poignant story to think about ways that we can kind of come together as a nation and that we have more in common than not. So I highly recommend that book. I love it. Excellent recommendation. We'll add that to our reading list as well. And Talithia, we've talked about some of the different things you've done in your career, some of the different places that you've gone for research. And I think this ability to travel and train in different places and share your research with different people is really a perk of life as a scientist. So I love sharing some of these travel experiences with our listeners. So I have to ask, do you have a favorite place that your work has taken you?

38:56I got to go to a teacher's education conference in Abu Dhabi. It was for all of their elementary, elementary, middle, high school teachers. And just to be on a panel, just to talk about technology and education, the importance of education. The event itself was fine, but it's Abu Dhabi and they're wealthy. So they're like, we will fly you first class for 20 minutes to be on a panel like that way around the globe for 20 minutes. Oh, wow. Part of also what made that trip special, it was my first time flying over to the United Arab Emirates.

39:30So that was really fun to be a part and just see a different culture, a different group of people. In that society, women are highly educated, but they don't have access to high paying jobs because those jobs are reserved for men, which is the structure of society. Men are not as highly educated because they are such a wealthy society because of the oil and there's so much wealth that there's not an incentive to become educated. Interesting. So where they struggle is that they have a female population that's highly educated because women

40:01stay in school and they keep going. They have men that aren't as educated. And then they have historically not been willing to offer positions to certain women. So this panel was really talking about how can we encourage men as well to really think about and take education seriously. As a guest, of course, I had to also be careful because it's easy for me to look at it and say, oh my goodness, this is just totally wrong, but it's just different. So I really had to just be conscious of where I was and be respectful of that. I'm a very outgoing person. So when I meet people,

40:36I like to shake their hands. I'm from the South. We hug. That's just how we say hello. So for me, being in a country where women don't look men in the eye, let alone touch men, a couple of times I got some looks like, what are you doing? I'm like, oh, I'm sorry. I'm looking you in your eye. I'm sorry. Let me know that. It was a challenge for me to become accustomed to that environment because it was just so different. And yet I really had a lot of respect for just being able to be there and to experience the culture and experience the people. So I was the only woman on a five person

41:09panel. And because I was a guest where the panelists were seated on the front row of this huge arena and then all the men sat behind us in white and then all the women sat behind them in black. So I was just feeling really weird because I'm sort of like, I'm up here with the guys, but the women are all in the back, but I'm a woman. I had a lot of feelings that was kind of going through me at the time. And then a lot of the women afterwards came up to take pictures and many of them were in full on dress. And so I could only see their eyes and they were so excited to take

41:43a picture with me. And I'm just thinking, I don't know who you are, except your beautiful eyes, but yes, let's take a picture. So it was just such a wonderful event for me to be a part of.

Travel Experiences

41:52I love it. And I think it is so cool to be able to get that perspective that you wouldn't be able to really get. As in science, this sort of travel experience, we're able to experience a completely different culture is pretty common. That's right. So when you were over there in Abu Dhabi, were you able to do any sightseeing or was it kind of an in and out trip? Oh, I did a little bit of sightseeing. I went to one of their malls, which for me is like heaven on earth. They have like all these richie stores and it was mostly empty. So I felt like I had the entire store to myself. Places that I wouldn't have walked in, I walked in because as a foreigner,

42:24it was assumed that like I must be there because I'm wealthy. And I'm like, well, sure, I will walk in this store that I won't buy anything out of, but I'll look around. So that was really fun. I didn't get to do like touristy things. So I wasn't really there long enough to see some of the mosque or the temple. I think if I came back for a longer visit, I'd love to do more cultural events, but there was a mall close to my hotel that I went to and just really enjoyed. Very cool. Well, Talithia, thanks so much for telling us more about this travel experience. And I think throughout our conversation, you have shared a lot of cool stories about just some of

42:57the amazing people you've been able to work with and some of the fun and funny things you do together. And I think these stories are really important to share with our listeners because there are a lot of stereotypes out there still about what scientists are like and mathematicians and what life in this kind of career is like. So I love sharing the human side of science by talking about some of these quirky traditions that labs have or just some funny or fond memories that you've shared with colleagues. So do you have a story of your own that you can share with us, Talithia? This isn't really quirky. Other than as an undergraduate, we would decorate our lab coats and play music

43:29in the lab. That was sort of about as quirky as we could get. My Harvey Mudd students are a lot quirkier. So one of my colleagues, Liz Orwin, she does research on corneas in the eye. So every summer her students make eyeball desserts. So they'll do like an eyeball jello or eyeball cake or cupcakes and have people over to come to the lab and to touch the eyes and like look at their work. It gets a lot of folks to come and think about research in a different way, but they go all out. So unfortunately,

44:02the cakes look really real. Kind of gross. Yeah. I didn't eat any last time. I was like, I think I'm good. But what I love about it is you want to bring the whole person into the lab. So I hate when students feel like they have to leave a part of themselves in order to do science because you don't. So she gets students who love to bake and it's like, here's an outlet. Yes, you can do amazing research on eyeballs and corneas and you can also put together an amazing cake or you can be a great artist. You can be a great musician and do these other things. You don't

44:34have to leave who you are at the door just so that you can become a scientist. Definitely. And I think kind of infusing the lab with this sense of creativity also can help the science too. Oh, absolutely. Right. Because you want to bring that to the table. You want to bring your ideas and your creativity to the table. And as soon as you stifle that in one area, you automatically stifle it in every other area. Definitely. Well, thanks so much for sharing some of these quirky traditions and stories, Delithia. And we've talked about some of the big questions that you're answering with some of the research that you do. But I think every scientist, every mathematician out there,

45:06there are things that you want to answer, but you can't right now, whether that's a lack of feasibility or funding or time or computational power, whatever it might be. Is there one question, Delithia, that you would want to tackle if I gave you everything you could dream of? So I strongly believe that our bodies can heal themselves if we give them the right nutrition. And I got to witness this firsthand with my father-in-law, but also my family has sort of transitioned from meat eating to pescatarian to vegetarian to now vegan. And it's amazing to see

45:41how our body has responded to a vegan lifestyle in a way that it had never responded before. So I have a colleague, Baxter Montgomery, he's a cardiologist in Houston, and he treats his patients so they have valves that are clogged and they need to have three or four bypasses. So for ones that are completely untreatable, in terms of like surgery, he will put them on this liquid raw vegan diet, or he'll just give them a slurry of fresh veggies, all blended up through an IV. And he has just seen

46:13remarkable results of how the body starts to clear the plaque and heal itself. And we were like, Baxter, you're crazy. Show me the data. Right. So, and then when we sort of started this health journey, and then we'd have a day or two where we eat raw. And I'd be like, I feel amazing. I have so much energy. I haven't had any coffee. What's wrong with me? He's like, yeah, the raw food, like your body can process all these nutrients and it heals itself. So that forced me to do a bit more digging because I'm just like, well, you're my friend. You might lie to me, but sure enough, as I sort of dug around, I could see where patients had

46:47these terminal diseases, some patients that had cancer, and really just went to a strict raw vegan diet and their bodies got the nutrients to remove the impurities from within. And that's always fascinated me. I think it would be challenging to stick to, but the research shows that even just for maybe a month or two, like it's not that you have to do this for the rest of your life, but just giving your body a chance to sort of reset and heal itself and then like go to a diet that's much more maintainable for you. I would love to fund that. And I think part of the reason that we don't do more

47:21of it is because it takes a lot, like to say, you're going to be on a raw vegan diet. People are like, I don't know what to cook. I don't know what to fix. I don't know how to make it good. I don't have time. Yeah. I don't have time. So how do you take all of those constraints out of the way? I'm going to give you all your meals. They're going to be delicious. Here's everything you eat. We're going to monitor you and we're going to walk you through this process that's time intensive and resource intensive. But I'd love to do that because I think as a country, we've got to figure out ways to heal ourselves. I don't know that medicine or pills are the solution. Like we really have to watch what we're putting in.

47:54I'd love to come up with a cure to cancer, but part of me just believes that maybe if we think about what goes in, that might also help cure some of these diseases that we're experiencing. Certainly. And I think you hit a really important point here. The average American diet is far from perfect. So I think there's so much we can do with just diet to live healthier lives. So very interesting question. That's so right. I love it. Well, Talithia, you've given us a lot to think about, maybe a little bit of guilt thinking about what we're going to make for dinner. But I'd love for you to share one more

48:25thing with us, Talithia. And that is a piece of advice. Can you tell me and our listeners something that someone shared with you that really helped you? Oh, my goodness. This came from my great grandmother. And she would say this all the time to me. Convince a fool against his will. So have the same opinion still. Save your breath to cool your soup. And I'm taking that because it's helped me to step back and look at situations and not be so argumentative. Because I think as a scientist, I'm like, let me prove my point. Here's why you

48:58should believe this. Here's why climate change is true. And I hear my great grandmother's voice like, okay, convince the fool against his will. So the way to engage people is not by force. It's not to try to show someone against their will why you're right. Because it's not going to change their opinion. So what are some other ways that you can engage a person such that you can help change their opinion? And especially for me, thinking about science communication and getting people excited about math and STEM and computer science and engineering, I can't convince people against their will. Or else they're going to leave feeling just like they came when they saw me. And I might as

49:32will save my breath to cool my soup if I'm going to do that. So really thinking about how to engage with people in a way that I can bring them closer, offer them some honey, don't offer vinegar and think they're going to want to come. So how can I make this sweet and appealing to them is why that advice sort of stands out to me. Excellent. Well, I think that is a really important and relevant message for today. So thanks for sharing that with us. And is there any other last piece of advice or maybe a note of inspiration you want to end our conversation on today, Talithia? I love the advice of just to keep moving forward. And what would you do if you weren't afraid?

50:05Because I feel like those are the questions that I ask myself when I get stuck or scared. It's like, OK, if you weren't afraid, what would you do? Oh, I do blah, blah, blah. It's like, great, then do that. Do that thing that you do if you weren't afraid. So just facing that fear, recognizing that, OK, I've got this fear, but I also have a chance to move forward from here. So what are the things I do and then do those things that I do if I weren't afraid? I love it. Wonderful message for our listeners. And Talithia, if they want to learn more about you and your work, where should they go or how should they get in touch? My website is probably the best way. TalithiaWilliams.com has all my contact information

50:40there and the book is there. And there's a link to Nova Wonders as well. Perfect. Well, listeners, definitely check out Talithia's website. And Talithia, thank you so much for joining us on the show and sharing a piece of your story. You are so welcome, Marie. Thank you for having me. It's been a pleasure and listeners, great to have you here with us as well. We'll see you next time on another episode of People Behind the Science.