PEL Presents PvI#117: Mark and Mary in the Triboobal Aftermath

Sponsor Introduction

0:00This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever find yourself playing the budgeting game? Well, with the Name Your Price tool from Progressive, you can find options that fit your budget and potentially lower your bills. Try it at Progressive.com. Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and Affiliates. Price and coverage match limited by state law. Not available in all states. When I found out I was going to be a parent, I immediately felt a lot of anxiety and worry. So I went on to BetterHelp to try to look for a therapist to help me with that.

0:31My relationship with my family and with my boyfriend and with myself were suffering. I really needed help. I was ruminating a lot. Really getting those thoughts out to a therapist and getting feedback was just life-changing. Discover what BetterHelp Online Therapy can do for you. Visit BetterHelp.com today.

Patreon Announcement

0:50Before we start, I want to point out that this episode is available for free, entirely without ads, at Patreon.com slash Philosophy Improv. Also, the redacted episode that we keep referring to is only available in full at that Patreon page. Again, it's Patreon.com slash Philosophy Improv. Signing up for a small recurring donation there is the best way to make sure this show continues to get made.

Show Introduction

1:20This is Philosophy vs. Improv, where two sages try to teach each other a thing or two, and maybe you, the audience, get something out of it as well. Hey, this is Mark Linsenmeyer, ready to train or discuss or really bring in in any appropriate way my philosophy background, and I'm joined by my co-host. Yes, Mary Hines, living, breathing, teaching, improvisation, and I'm here to bring that expertise, curiosity, and playfulness to our conversation today.

Email Discussion

1:54And we had some emails back and forth. We had a whole discussion that will not have been posted for you listeners and viewers because the guest did not want it in the public. It'll be on our Patreon, but we have a lot of maybe thoughts about, we've had some discussions about different teaching styles and techniques. The main one was sort of how much negative reinforcement. Well, my question is, before we even get into that, is that the first time that this has happened?

2:28I mean, I could have just overruled him. I guess I'll reframe my question. Is this the first time that someone has said, I do not feel comfortable having that out in the world for X, Y, Z reasons? No. Okay. But in other cases, it was not. I mean, even in this case, this was not an insistence. This was just him like, oh, I don't know if I did very well on this. And I just gave him a call and he's a friend of mine. You know, well, was a friend of mine, was on the show because of a personal connection.

3:02And so I like, it sounds like you don't actually want this out in the public. Is there? And then he was like, yeah, you're right. I'm sure there are other guests that if I said that straight to them, they would have been like, oh, yeah, you're right. But I was not so generous with them that I was like, I think it's fine. And so we're putting it up.

Guest's Concerns

3:19What reasons did they cite for not wanting it out there? Well, so recently, I might have mentioned this on Partially Examined Life. We had somebody, a philosophy professor, join us for a discussion. And I think she just didn't, she felt crowded out of it. Or I don't know, because she wouldn't talk to me afterwards. Right. Communication is two ways, really. I can't, yeah. At the halfway point, she just said, you know what? You guys got this. I'm going to bounce. Interesting. And I was like, well, okay. But it would be nice to know, is there something we should be doing differently?

3:53Can I blame one of my co-hosts in particular for not being hospitable to what you had to offer? Or was she just bored? I couldn't tell you. And then she followed up like that and was like, well, it's easy. If it's easy to just remove me from the things that I did say in the first half, please do that. And I'm like, no, we can't. It was a conversation. What I'm hearing here as I follow my own spidey senses and intuition is this, these all sound like fear responses. This sounds like an override of the amygdala of worry, ego, fear.

Philosophy of Fear

4:29So it could be interesting to discuss like the philosophy of fear. Like what actually, I mean, I see what happens in my improv students, but I can only do so much to help them feel safe. And just like communication with your friend, it's like, it's a two-way street. I can only help someone as much as they are willing to be helped. And it requires immense amounts of courage for especially someone who considers themselves a master in their field, a master in whatever, and then coming to what they may think is being a novice.

Improvisation and Fear

5:11And that fear around that, my argument is that we are all improvisers. It's just about our ability to allow ourselves to know that we use improv every day. Well, and one of the things that I brought up on that discussion was how skills don't necessarily transfer to something that is even just adjacent to it. That you'd think that somebody who did a lot of acting, which invariably involves improv, would be comfortable with improv, not necessarily.

5:42Or somebody that is great at improv, but has never been on an improv podcast like that might be a different thing of somebody who is trying to teach or learn in a different situation than they've been on before. So being really good at philosophy and understanding the dynamic of our particular show, Partially Examined Life, to be able to get a word in and feel comfortable with that. Like, those are just totally different things, even though, obviously, they involve a lot of similar skills.

6:14And so I don't know if it's entirely, right, you're saying that it's fear. I think it just as often could be something else ego-related. And this is one of the things I want to talk to you about is how fear and ego things relate to each other. So it could have been, for instance, that this person was like, yeah, you know, I'm an academy person. I teach real classes. I'm paid by an institution.

6:44And what I'm hearing now is way too, is beneath me, basically. It's too off the cuff. Like, I don't think this is really, but I could imagine somebody who is not, you know, especially maybe a philosopher coming on our show. And we're making them do a lot of goofy stuff that might, you know, we haven't had this problem with any of the guests. But is the unwillingness to play the game or to learn, it seems like that could be, in some ways, just a matter of arrogance.

Perception of Playfulness

7:12I have so many thoughts and feelings here. And I think the one that's screaming to me the most to be addressed is the perception that playfulness is seen as a lack of professionalism. That I have had this my entire life. I have been bullied my entire life for my laugh being too loud. Like a joke about it, how when I laugh here, I have to, like, throw my head back so I don't blast everyone's eardrums.

7:44The world has tried to bully my joy out of me over and over and over again. And I have and I continue to repeatedly fight for my merriment. And this is one of the reasons why I'm a teacher to be able, I'm getting so, like, fiery and passionate about it. Like, that's one of the reasons why I was inspired to become an acting and an improv teacher to be the force that I didn't have growing up.

8:16Like, it was so long until I had, you know, a female improv teacher. And now me and my, like, non-binary qualities of embracing the masculine and feminine. Like, I never had anyone like me. And so now I'm able to stand there and be a beacon for other people. Like, yeah, I look like a big Muppet because I'm a six-foot-tall Carol Burnett kind of gal. So by me being big and brave and bold in who I have fought to be, I give my students and whoever sees and hears me permission to do the same.

8:54And that's not easy. I'm not saying that it's easy. And another thought, too, relating to ego, I'm not going to be able to remember the quote exactly, but it's a Viola Spolin quote. If anyone listening knows the quote, please fact-check me, that your ego stays in the green room. You stay in the green room. I am not, Mary is not allowed onto that stage. And I think, well, I have been observing more as of late, like, in the last, especially in the last year, that people present a fear response to, they're worried about how they might be perceived.

Fear and Ego

9:37They're worried that someone might think that a character that they're playing is them as the person. So there's a lot, again, I really do think it comes down to fear. But a fear is also on a wheel. Like, there's different things you are fearful of where your ego comes in to try to keep you safe. When you have that flash amygdala fear response, your ego is like, I'm taking over. You can't do this. I'll keep you safe. But is it? And I understand, you know, this whole dare to fail thing. I think we've brought this up in various circumstances, and I've expressed discomfort with doing potentially offensive stereotypes and things like that.

10:16And you've made this point, basically, that this should be a completely risk-free space. And I think if you're in an improv class, right, there are a lot of people that, obviously, we have no problem being on a podcast. Yeah. In general. But there are lots of people, you know, the people who are most underrepresented on podcasts is people who don't want to be on podcasts. People who have a sense of privacy or a sense of reputational risk.

10:48Because almost invariably, as soon as you put anything out into the public space, you have set yourself up to be taken out of context, to be misunderstood, to be ridiculed. And the main saving grace of that is that nothing I do is popular enough to gain more than the most passing dismissal of the large mass of chodes that could potentially be witnessing this. It takes an immense amount of courage to be vulnerable and intimate.

11:25It requires so much confidence. You must know your core values. You must know who you are. You must know what you're fighting for. And then you get to surrender and trust that all of the work you did on fully owning your sense of self will speak louder than the worry or fear about how a character or a topic was received. So, again, like coming back to like my, you know, like I've had this with pet sitting clients that I don't sit for anymore who treated me like I was dumb dirt.

12:05And I think it was because I presented as like jolly and that jolly is a choice. And underneath it, I'm a fucking calculated, educated badass. And I know exactly what I'm doing. And I choose to live a life that is joyful and playful while I'm doing really serious and intense shit. Because that makes me happy. And I see that the more that I embrace, the more that one embraces self, I'm just observing the evidence that like I am so busy that I don't have time to accept every opportunity that people want to give me.

12:40People are like clamoring for Mary, for the inner child that I've healed and fought for and protected. Well, I'm grateful. I don't know. So, maybe I'm thinking that this person, again, you know, because I didn't have a conversation with them. I thought the recording was great. I thought we had some really juicy conversations and we had some really fun bits. And so, it's interesting to me that their response was like, I don't want it out there.

13:10I think for some people, it's scary to be vulnerable and it's scary to be seen. And our brain just goes on and on on this hamster wheel of all the worst case scenario things that could happen. That most likely will not happen. So, I know you were hesitant to be on a medical podcast as a patient, you know, all sorts of HIPAA laws and things. Yeah, I was pretty nervous. Are you okay with us now that you've undergone the procedures, the examinations?

13:44We did – we'll blur your nipples. Don't worry about that. Thank you so much. I mean, I'm just here for the $150 Visa gift card if I'm being perfectly honest. Yeah. I mean, that's – people tend to give up quite a lot for the $150 Visa gift card. I mean, I was really nervous about getting a third breast. But, you know, I thought like I'm seeing so many people just like bi-boobles, you know, just like bi-boobs everywhere.

14:17And I didn't just want to get, you know, breast enhancement. I wanted to get breast enhancement. So, you know, thank you for taking me because I know it's very dangerous to get a third breast detached. But I'm really loving all the attention that I'm getting, to be honest with you, Dr. Haynes. That's great. And we've already, you know, filmed and shown most of the procedures of attaching the third breast.

14:49The thing that I wanted to ask you, Ms. Delacroix, is are you comfortable with us showing on screen where the skin for the third breast was taken from on your body? I don't really see how you showing pictures of my ass is going to help you. But I have been well-endowed. I have been blessed with a juicy peach. And so, you know, I did have a little bit of like, you know, extra skin to share.

15:21So, Dr. Un, honestly, I trust you. I surrender because who am I to stand in the way of your multiple medical degrees? Sorry, the drugs are still wearing off. Who am I to stand in the way of all of your knowledge from your multiple medical degrees? And if you think showing my ass to the world is going to help empower more people to become tri-bubal, I'm into it.

15:52All right. So, there are, of course, other places one could get the skin. But you're right. Yeah. So, let's, you know, let me just put the camera down. So, you see that one. For sure, right now? Right now? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We got to show. We got to get the footage for this. And we'll put some tasteful music behind this. Don't worry. Oh, thank you. I mean, maybe Baby got a little less back. I think that's a new version of the song. That's very funny. Yeah. Yeah. Honestly, I have to, Dr. Haynes, I have to tell you, I'm so honored to be here right now on the leading edge of body modification.

16:33I just have to tell you how on. I'm so grateful. And it's good that you're using, we gave you the pillow to put under that side of your butt because otherwise you would be leaning about 20 degrees to the left. Sure. And it's all for, you know, sometimes you got to give something up to get something else. Yeah. So, I mean, the juicy cheeks, one of them is still quite juicy, but the other one is rather flattened out because of the removal of the tissues. Oh, well, I'm so sorry. That's very offensive. I'm very offended. Oh, I'm sorry.

17:03I should use the technical term, super flat. Oh, yes. Thank you so much. Yes. That sounds better. Honestly, it's really all in the words, right? Yes. So, you know, we'll show that little, in fact, it might be very instructive how we show how you could, you know, say, throw a tennis ball against that side of your ass and it'll just bounce like it was against a garage door. I mean, it's really, really quite flat now. You're full of so many ideas. And thank you so much.

17:34Can I have my gift card now? Oh, yes. Yes. Thank you. And scene. All right. See, this great initiation for that. And it's so fun. I hope it's fun for our listeners, right? Because then you get to pick and pull and draw from the scene to be able to track, like, what from our conversation leading up to the scene made its way into the safety of the scenic sandbox to get worked out through character improvisation.

18:05Yeah, I've occasionally with philosophy people early on, you know, we had a really nice old kind of grandmother-y guest early on. Yes, please. But I kind of felt bad. Okay, like, we've been talking philosophy now and now we're going to do this thing. I hope you're okay with it. And she was, you know, wonderfully good-humored about it and I think she knew what she was getting into. But I tend to, all of my shows are a very specific kind of format, such that even the music show, which, like, musicians are used to being interviewed.

18:38But sometimes I get them and they're like, why are you asking this kind of question? I don't remember, you know, so I have to sort of shift with them. Eventually, I always find something, some way that we connect and something that they have something to say about. But sometimes the first part of it, following my normal, hey, I've charted out your song, let's talk about why you did this particular thing getting from verse one to verse two, might be just like, that's not the way they think about music. So they're sort of getting, they were roped into this thing by a PR person and now they're like, I didn't know what I was signing up for.

19:12I feel, so that our mutual friend here did not want his appearance here released, said, I feel like I brought a spoon to a knife fight.

19:22That he clearly did not research the show. I'm going to pause you right there. Yes. So he has chosen to view it a certain way. And from what I'm seeing and hearing and from the episode itself, no matter how much we loved him, supported him and encouraged him, it's kind of like that thing you put down the drain to pull the hair out. No matter how many times I actively worked to unclog his drain, he kept packing himself in there.

19:54And I reach a point where I am exhausted trying to work for you as you work against yourself. This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever find yourself playing the budgeting game? Well, with the name your price tool from Progressive, you can find options that fit your budget and potentially lower your bills. Try it at Progressive.com. Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and Affiliates. Price and coverage match limited by state law. Not available in all states.

20:25What's up, everyone? It's me, AZ Fudd, from Fudd Around and Find Out. Thanks, everyone, for all the positivity coming out of the draft. I am so blessed to have so many people that believe in and support me. My listeners, my friends and family, and the whole Geico team who put my family in a commercial with me. That was so cool to see. The gecko even showed up wearing my jersey. Well, a smaller version of it. And my grandfather is a huge fan of the gecko. During my injury rehab, I was a little nervous about the future, but I've had so much support and so many people believing in me, and we came through it together.

20:58I know I'm leaving the bubble of college, headed to a new city, joining a new team. It's a lot of change all at once, but I don't feel like I'm alone. The way I feel about basketball is the way I feel about life. You help your team, and your team helps you. So thank you again, everyone. Whether you're on the Geico team or just a fan wearing my team's jersey, thank you all so much for all the support. It's game day. Are your moderate to severe Crohn's disease or ulcerative colitis symptoms keeping you from the action? Skyrizi, Risenkizumab Risa, could help you get back to the game.

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22:06Ask your doctor about Skyrizi, the number one prescribed biologic in Crohn's and ulcerative colitis combined. Learn more at Skyrizi.com or 1-866-SKYRIZI. From what you said, it made me think that adults lose our ability to play, which is understandable. You know, it's all understandable. But play becomes so foreign. So that's why I love improvisation so much and why I love Viola Spolin so much.

22:36It's because improv, what the improv exercises she created are for immigrant children who don't speak the same language. So anyone can do it, but we get in our own way. And something else I wanted to say, too, is the process is the product. You don't know how the scene's going to work out. And the ability to keep ourselves in the present moment without worrying about what we had just done or fearful of what's to come is athletic.

23:10I feel very confident at my ability right now as an improviser and an actor. However, I'm still a student as well. And I work with coaches and, like, I'm working through things and strengthening different muscle groups as well. And, you know, some coaches that I was working with, they're like, stop writing. Stop writing the scene. It requires so much surrender. And to me, I often think, like, I'm not that big of a deal. Like, I'm not that talented.

23:41Like, I'm not that unique. But then I, like, get out of my head and I look back and be like, yeah, you're fucking awesome, Heinz. Like, the things that I take as, like, oh, this is easy. This just happens. You know, it's not easy. Well, speaking of surrender, one of the things that I wanted to tell you when I texted you a couple days ago was that I talked to Jenny Hansen, one of our last guests. Jenny Hansen! Jenny Hansen, we love you! Yes, I know you got on with very well.

24:11That I want to curate one of these sessions where, for the bulk of it, I am not present. So that would be the ultimate surrender. Yeah, so I want to set up a play date for the two of you. Oh, that's going to be so fun. And then I'll still be editing it and maybe I'll say some words at the end or we'll talk about it the following time. That sounds great because I've had some feelings of feeling a little bit, like, guilty and bad when we were doing that episode. Because Jenny and I were, like, gals at a slumber party painting our nails and talking about boys, even though we weren't.

24:45But, like, that was, like, the energy. We were just – it was just so refreshing to be with another unicorn. I mean, you're amazing as well. But there's just something about another strong, badass woman. And I'm like, hi! Oh, my gosh! I'm not alone! So I want to encourage this and I want to encourage her to start her own podcast or something. So this is a step toward trying to make that happen. And then, you know, if we have that thing that I'm mostly not on, I'm also been talking to the guy that we've been talking about of maybe I'll just have a conversation with him just about theater versus philosophy or something like that.

25:24And we'll see how he feels about that. Maybe that won't be public either, but at least – It bothers me that he kept blocking himself and then ultimately decided that – he did the ultimate block and was, like, I don't want it out there. And, I mean, I have reverence and respect for that decision, but ultimately I'm like, oh, dude, no, but this is where transformation and growth happens. And transformation and growth is elective, and it's not easy. Like, I am back into strength training again.

25:57And it is really scary and hard. It is scary to do uncomfortable things. I'm going to text my mom really quick and say it because we've been having some family emergency stuff lately. While you do that, I will say to the audience that I will promise the episode that we keep referring to will be on the Patreon. I got his permission for that. And maybe through the second discussion, I will be able to convince him to put the first discussion out in front of the public. So we'll see. But, you know, it was an interesting relationship with my past that I wanted to explore a little further.

26:30It did uncover some things about educational technique and things like – so one of the things we had engaged in a scene and kind of like Elijah Dan did not too long ago, who is also new to improv, was just like, oh, I can't do – I can't do what you're doing. Hold on, I'm sorry. I have to let you know. I asked my mom, is it an emergency? And she said, nope, all is well. Just wanting to share a cat moment. Bless my blood pressure. Are you going to share your cat moment with – or it's a photo?

27:02It's not shareable. No, she didn't send a photo. I just did it because my parents are – it's been so stressful. They're both going through some pretty intense medical things, so I always get nervous. And I guess all of our listeners can relate to when you have to start parenting your parents. Isn't that fun? No one tells you about that. All right. Well, we have a possible title for the episode, which is Unspecified Cat Moment. Yeah, that's all. I'll let her know. She'll think that's great. But we have to then make good on that.

27:33We have to – I mean, I – In the case, see, the way that the Schrodinger's works is until you open the case, you don't know what that cat is doing. He could be doing anything. He could be on the phone. He could be having a snap. He could be licking his butt and then – He'd be having a bear. We'd be really embarrassed if we opened and he was licking his butt. Honestly, I would be absolutely humiliated if I was licking my butt and someone decided to pop in and say hello.

28:07That would be horrifying. Right. So should we just, like, knock on the box before we open it so the cat can get ready? Go ahead. Knock on the box. Okay. Give the box a knock.

28:17What the fuck do you want? Oh, shit. I'm so sorry to – What the fuck do you want? Oh, my gosh. That's a very angry meow. Oh, that's a very – it almost sounds like they're swearing or something. Yeah, I'm fucking swearing. Trying to take a fucking nap here. Oh, gosh. Mostly we just wanted to see if you were dead or not. I mean, there's – we get a lot of pressure as people name Schrodinger that – about our cat. What is your cat doing? Right now.

28:48You listen to me right now. I didn't ask to be a lab cat. I mean, I know. Nobody – you don't, like, stick me with serums or anything. And I know, like, this is technically my lab. I own this lab. I'm the lab cat. But I didn't ask for this. Oh, he looks so cute. Look at him. Yeah, cats have a very – I wonder what goes on in those cats' minds. I only wish we could hear. I only wish we knew what was going on if we – you know what? Listen, what if we created a theorem, Dr. Winston, for you and me?

29:26We could inject it in our ears and then we could understand what the cat was saying. I think that would be very conducive to sort of when I tell the story in a dramatic way about this to my family. Right. You have such a wonderful family. How are they doing? Oh, yeah, good. They were just asking me about the cat, though. That's, you know, really why I wanted to come into it. I'm right here. I'm right here. All right. Should we just fast forward 50 years until we've created the serum?

29:59I mean, you don't even need to. I've actually been working on it in private. Oh, good. Oh, good. I've got a little vial for you right now. That's much narratively simpler than having to add a 50-year break while I learn basic chemistry and stuff. Okay, so you've got, okay, let's, let's, all right. Well, this one, you just pour it, just lean over like you're doing the D-Brock's ear detox and just pour it. Yeah, I feel like I have a little more blockage around my ears than you do. You've got to let it fizzle, Doctor. So you've just got to let it fizzle. Oh, God, that's tingly. Okay. Okay, Brenda.

30:31Thank you. I'm really impressed, Dr. Brenda, that you, you know, you were able to have the foresight to come up with this thing. Well, I think the thing, the key here is that I don't have any children. So when I, when I'm away from the lab, you know, it's kind of like the lab is always a part of me. And so I always have time to come up with interesting ideas. I've been making my own yogurt, which has been fun. What the fuck are you guys doing? I think I just poured yogurt in my ear. No. Oh, oopsie poopsie.

31:01I'm so sorry. I must have given you my, my, my yogurt bacteria sample. What's the doodle? You can't make translate cats. Oh, hello. I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm Dr. Brenda's, uh, 10 o'clock Chobani yogurt snack.

31:18Wow. Can you hear me? I feel like I can understand yogurt talking now. Oh, that's very exciting. I didn't know this was, this is, this is very exciting. I have so much to say. What, what an exciting time for science. Oh, oh, I think I better just clear my ear out, my ear out. I don't, I don't want to hear what the yogurt has to say because I just want to eat it. Oh, well, I know that I'm delicious, but, but, but Dr. Brenda specifically, I'm, I'm specifically Dr. Brenda's 10, 10 lunch, 10, 10, uh, late morning snack.

31:53Yeah. Well, Dr. Brenda, I don't know if you can understand what the yogurt is saying, but, uh, you know, it's a much more effective way than just writing your name on the yogurt. Because, because I know you've objected to me eating your yogurt out of the fridge to have it actually able to tell me directly. Oh my God. Wait, doctor. Here's what we do. We can make a bunch of sentient food samples and that, and we can market it as how to protect your lunch from vultures from coworker vultures.

32:26Oh my gosh. This is a huge market. Now I'm rethinking this whole thing that, uh, what the fuck are you guys talking about? Nine sentient yogurt.

32:39We're done. I think I just poured acid in my, I can't keep track of all those characters. I just kept adding more and then I was like, oh fuck, I'm going to have to remember and differentiate all these characters. That was a fun scene, Mark. Our listeners, I hope you loved that. I hope you enjoyed being at the lab with us. That cat was really angry. I'm so sorry for all the F-bombs, but that cat was mad. Yeah. We never got back to the cat. The cat couldn't continue living his own misunderstood life. The cat served his, okay. So here's, here's another thing. Here's another thing too, is like, I was playing characters.

33:13Like you, you have to be comfortable with being vulnerable. In this moment, I could get up in my own head. I could judge myself. I could worry. I could be like, did I represent women in a positive way? Did I, you know, what, did I make a choice? Was I like to, oh my God, no, there is. You cannot let yourself get all up in your head, picking everything apart because just the act of improvisation is so athletic and difficult.

33:45Like it requires so much presence. So I don't know. It just, it gets me, it gets me all, all riled up and it saddens me when people choose to block the creative process. Not saying you did that, but I'm just circling back to, you know, our guest that was like, I don't want this out. Be like, oh, but. Well, so clearly dwelling on mistakes, right?

Improvisation and Vulnerability

34:10I, I had a couple of times I've produced other people's recordings. So like I had come over and, and I had this one guy, a singer songwriter who every time he would mess up, he would just like fume in himself. He would just, and I'm just like, just shut the fuck up. This is part of the process. Like you're going to mess up. You just do it again. It just adds extra time and makes the whole thing feel bad. If you dwell on so quick, you know, not getting frustrated with yourself or down on yourself or frustrated by the fact that you made a mistake or by the situation.

34:42Like, obviously, yes, yes, yes. But that doesn't mean that everything is good, right? It doesn't mean that you toy with yourself. Like you could still be very self-critical. You could still be, have a high level of perfectionism. Like, oh, I want to keep actually doing that again, nine times, or maybe we have to come back tomorrow because I want to actually get that right. And so I know that's dealing with yourself as opposed to, so one of the things I had suggested

35:13is when our friend who was not taking the bait, just like, there's lots of times where like, oh, I wish I had said such and such when I was in this situation. Well, why not give them the opportunity? Hey, pretend that we're just, we're, we're queuing you up that same thing. Why aren't you right now, since now that you've gotten over your fear, why don't you just do that? And you, and you said, no, no, no, that's too much carrying around the baggage of your earlier failure. We can't do that kind of drilling that there was something in your, your, and I emailed

35:45you about this too. Like, is there a way, you know, I'm getting a lot of good improv training of positive reinforcement and, and good examples. And here's things that I'm doing that are, you know, that you're doing to me that are helping. But it also seems like it would be a useful thing to learn of how to be in a scene with somebody who is having problems. And like, so would a drill I propose to you via email be like, okay, you and a guest, you're sort of playing good cop and bad cop within a scene that one of you is being a really good

36:17improviser and the other one is purposefully replicating mistakes that other people make. And like, how, as their scene partner, should I support them in that? And you just, you seem to hate that whole line of possible training. I seem to hate it. Yes. That you were like, oh, that sounds very conflict driven. You know, I don't want to catch you out in mistakes or whatever, you know. I think I'll offer you because I already do that with almost every guest.

36:47I'm already fielding, I'm already fielding that and making it positive. Sure, sure. And I don't show that because I'm a professional and I'm encouraging and supportive. So my reticence to that is because I'm already doing that and it takes, I make it look easy. I make it sound easy, but it's not. And that kind of work, I think, is better in the safety of a class that isn't being broadcast.

37:17So people feel safe to get in the mud, knowing that it will not leave the room. It was just us and it won't go out to anyone else. That makes sense. Something like that is more advanced. Something I would. So when I'm teaching someone, I don't introduce something like questions only or like lose the argument. I don't teach those more kind of advanced practices until I have worked with someone for at least two months of a session that meets once a week for like two and a half hours.

37:57Because if that is done too early, it can like mess people up for everything in the future. So it's like the philosophy there is we go step by step out into the deep end. I don't throw you right into the deep end or you'll never want to go swimming again. I don't put you up on a horse to knock you off like it. So you see my point? Sure. Yeah. This is a. So the extreme of this sort of teaching philosophy is you don't know how to swim.

38:31Let me just throw you in the water, which my mom said her dad actually did to her, which with the results her entire life, she never wanted to go in water over her head because she had such a bad teaching technique. And I think one of the reasons I defend and protect both my students and our guests so much is I have had that done to me in a couple different ways, a couple different times. And it's required so much work to heal myself from like the subconscious and the conscious damages of it that I am not eager to put anyone in that situation.

39:09Safety is so important to me for myself and my students. So wait, I want to come. I'd love to come back to this because I know we're starting to like wind ish down.

Philosophy of Transformation

39:20I'd love to know what you've uncovered in philosophy about fear. Like, what do some philosophers say about fear and like reticence to transformation, any self-restraint or really like anchoring yourself and like not allowing yourself to grow and change for fear of being seen as you change? Oh, I think that's what it is. People are scared to be seen vulnerable as they're metamorphosizing. So any of that?

39:51I mean, philosophers don't tend to talk too much about things that happen in real time, as you're describing, right? Because the ideal of philosophy is an unbodied, purely rational mind that is considering arguments, right? The marketplace of ideas, right? We brought in Socrates a number of times because at least Socrates is showing you in Plato's dialogues, is showing you an occurrence in time of Socrates and some of his students, interlocutors, sometimes it's people that Socrates is attacking.

40:28And actually he is doing the thing in a gentle way, right? He's trying to show, he's trying to catch them out. He's trying to show them, you are so puffed up. You think you know what justice is. You think you know what piety is or whatever the thing is. And I'm going to show, I'm going to make you contradict yourself. I'm going to show you that you actually didn't know what you were talking about. And so it's that sort of negative thing, right? Which is, which is, so it's, it's not any, but he's very gentle about it as, as we were saying with Jenny, such that it is. So it's, it's the, the resistance again, is not fear or at least not overt fear.

41:00It's arrogance that you can interpret arrogance as always being fear, but I don't, I don't know that that is. I think this episode is brought to you by progressive insurance. Do you ever find yourself playing the budgeting game? Well, with the name your price tool from progressive, you can find options that fit your budget and potentially lower your bills. Try it at progressive.com. Progressive casualty insurance company and affiliates price and coverage match limited by state law, not available in all states.

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42:35Sessions average about $21 with insurance, and some pay as little as $0 depending on their plan. Visit growtherapy.com slash book now to get started. That's growtherapy.com slash book now. growtherapy.com slash book now. Availability and coverage by state and insurance plan. What's up, everyone? It's me, AZ Fudd, from Fun Around and Find Out. Thanks, everyone, for all the positivity coming out of the draft. I am so blessed to have so many people that believe in and support me.

43:05My listeners, my friends and family, and the whole Geico team who put my family in a commercial with me. That was so cool to see. The gecko even showed up wearing my jersey. Well, a smaller version of it. And my grandfather is a huge fan of the gecko. During my injury rehab, I was a little nervous about the future, but I've had so much support and so many people believing in me, and we came through it together. I know I'm leaving the bubble of college, headed to a new city, joining a new team. It's a lot of change all at once, but I don't feel like I'm alone. The way I feel about basketball is the way I feel about life.

43:37You help your team, and your team helps you. So thank you again, everyone. Whether you're on the Geico team or just the fan wearing my team's jersey, thank you all so much for all the support. The arrogance, I feel, is like protecting yourself from vulnerability. Maybe? Question mark? I mean, I've also, I feel like the ethic of humility is very damaging to people because a lot of the sort of self-esteem stuff that you were talking about earlier in this discussion,

44:09somebody might, oh, oh, she's being so arrogant. But like, no, no, no, that's not the game that we're playing. That even just sort of presuming that you have something to teach someone else.

44:23Obviously, if you get in a situation where I'm open to teaching, teach me. But if you're on the street, if you're with your family, then they interpret that as condescending, as arrogant. And I feel like mostly, I don't mind people who, if they're self-aware, exhibit some arrogant traits. I feel like that is a small price to pay for someone who is willing to be awesome.

44:55What is arrogance? I mean, now I want to say it, talk about it etymologically, because it's arrogating something to yourself. That's why I love etymology. I love like going to the source. So what is, what is arrogance? I mean, it's just acting like you have it all together or have it, you know, that you have something that, you know, something that other people don't, that you, yeah, just not going out of your way to be really solicitous and, and, oh, you know best, I must, you know,

45:28actually being self-confident, I think is often interpreted as arrogance. It's, it's, yeah, it's fat. The optics are fascinating between confidence and arrogance. I mean, I grew up very strict Roman Catholic. Like, like what was indoctrinated into me was like, if you don't go to church every Sunday, you are going to hell. And that was like a real thing that was like pummeled into me. And so I did all of like everything, all the Catholic stuff. Like I did everything, all, all the rites, all the ceremonies,

46:00all the CCD I was saying in the choir, my mom was a lector. Like we were like really active in, in the church. And whenever I would listen to the mass and the homily and like, whenever I was being indoctrinated internally, I would, didn't dare show it because that is not a good little Catholic girl. Like you don't show that. I always had a hard time with the, like, I am so much lesser and lower and like, oh, like I am beneath you like that.

46:32Like I always had an interesting brush up against humility. I think that you can be both confident and humble. Like I can know that I'm really good at something and also know that I have so much to learn about that something. So I wonder if it's, if the line, if the differentiator is like, what do we do with the power that we have? Like, how do we wield it? Do we belittle people and make them feel terrible and be like,

47:04you're dumb and wrong. Be like, I've worked with X, Y, Z and I'm name dropping this. And like, I know this. And like, I have all of these accolades and trophies and blah, blah, blah. So I guess, I don't know, I'm just putting it up there. It's like, it's in a, it's such a fine line, but I feel like it's like, how, how we do it matters. Uh, certainly. And, and I'm, you know, very careful at this point, right? As a, as I have voiced before, I think that differences in status or, right?

47:39This is just a fundamental presupposition of modern society that, that we're all basically equal, right? That if you think you're just cause you're so, you could be really good swimmer or whatever, but like, that's just a specific thing. Still the difference between the most accomplished human and, and somebody who you would not have regarded as very accomplished at all is so thin compared to the difference between us and, and probably any kind of creature. And I don't want to get in. We'll, we'll talk about animals some other day, but you know, maybe we can, we can grandfather up some animals, but, uh,

48:11I just don't think that there is any, right. When you're in a situation, of course you want to be as gracious as you can and just spread as much joy and good feeling. I wouldn't, I wouldn't say that's an, of course, I would say that that is the rare anomaly in this situation to be gracious, loving, and supportive. And I don't like that I'm saying this, but I found that that is the rarity. Yes. And I think that maybe that is because of people have other priorities and

48:46they're not necessarily selfish priorities. They are. So I feel like when I was a young person, as I've said before, I was very much an arrogant little shit. Like I've definitely thought in school, I'm smarter than these high school teachers. Most of them, they ended up high school teachers. So clearly something went wrong in their lives compared, this is the kind of stuff that I would think about. And, uh, you know, I was rewarded enough in that environment that there was some justification for that, but it still was not an arrogant little shit.

49:19Yes. It was not a good way to be. So I figured out, you know, certainly by college, even like that, whatever you think of yourself and your abilities. I mean, of course, you know, everybody has a different life experience. So somebody that you might consider, right. So it's only if you know that I place so much value in this particular kind of intelligence that I could feel arrogant about it, as opposed to like seeing myself in perspective as a young person who really

49:49in the grand scheme of things did not know very much about almost anything, did not know how to have a productive political conversation, for instance, really didn't know anything about foreign affairs or politics or, or, or sociology or how fucking anything worked. Right. So I should, you know, should whatever, you know, how genius you might be holding, you're probably a very one-sided individual who has very much to learn from other people. So I always, you know, enter a situation assuming that anybody that I'm talking to like has a huge store

50:23of knowledge that it would be nice to get a look at. And it was, you know, as well as just, you know, wanting to be nice to them for that sake. Like that's a great and direct correlation to improvisation. And this is how I learned it and how I teach it. One gets to treat every offer they receive in a scene, verbal, nonverbal, however, you're receiving the inventory of sensory information, you get to treat it like it is the best gift you have ever received. And I get to think of the offers that I give to you as gifts.

50:57And if we are both in that place of like, I'm treating everything you do as a gift, I'm giving you a gift. I'm receiving the gift and giving it back and forth. That isn't just like, you can still talk about like tender, difficult things, but if we choose to look through the point of view of everything that we say and do as a gift back and forth to each other, it gives the scene a really like amazing uplifting energy. Even when we're talking about difficult things, it has like an effervescence to it because we're seeing and celebrating each

51:29other. So you don't have to refer to me as a Bishop Mahone. You can call me Jim. Oh God, that's really, that's hard. it's hard for me to do. Cause I, I, and I can't even look at you. Oh, my child do, do not think that just because of your young age and your, your live demeanor and your, uh, your good, good work around the parish that you must grovel. Uh,

52:00you have so much to offer. I wanted to hear about what it's like for you at school. Tell me more about how the kids talk to each other these days. Oh, wow. Bishop Jim. No one's, no one's ever asked me what, what I think before. I, I don't even think that my point of view is worth saying. Oh, every, every one of us is one of God's cells contains multitudes.

52:31Uh, surely in your, uh, I mean, if you could tell me, say what, what the other gals are wearing. I have a question about, no, uh, I'm no, that doesn't seem right. Sir Jim Bishop, Jim, uh, to talk about what the, what the girls are wearing. I thought you asked me to come to your office to talk about your philosophy of, of people being the cells of God. Yes,

53:01yes, yes, yes. And the cells that, you know, they, they, they exchange, uh, uh, little, little ways. Do you know the ways that cells communicate? Have you learned this in biology yet? Um, I don't think so. Well, little, little, uh, tendrils come off one cell and maybe, uh, sort of caress another cell. And then the cells, the cells, the cells are, uh, they, they feel, they feel, uh, empowered. I want to raise you up and show you the glory of, of, of,

53:32I'm sorry.

53:35I hope that we keep having this conversation out at a public place and not in your office, where no one else can see us. Yes. You've passed the test. Thank you. Good job, Trudy. Uh, this will, this will show you that you should not trust authority figures. And that went so dark so quickly, but here's the thing. When something like that happens, like in my head,

54:06like I see what's happening and Mary is going, Oh shit, this is dangerous. This is where it's going. But me, the character is like, we got to go there though. Like, however, we have our feet on the gas pedal and I'm able to, I'm able to like keep going or break or pull. I think people get to know that they are empowered and you don't have to do something. Let yourself go to a place that is uncomfortable and know that if it's really reaching the red alert zone,

54:37you can, you can get out of it. But the whole point is to show real human life on stage and is to go to those vulnerable places. And then when it gets too vulnerable and like too scary, you can be like, I got to go now. Bye. You can find a way to get out of there. Yeah. I don't know with that level of silliness, if showing real life on stage is quite what, what, what was happening there. I did get, start to get worried and, and almost completely stopped the scene a few, a few seconds before you did,

55:08because I was like, I hope that you, you Mary or the people listening have not had, you know, that this is not triggering actual traumatic situations. Well, when I say real, real human life on stage, like it might not specifically be the Bishop to student dynamic. It might not necessarily be like that, but those power dynamics exist. Sure. Someone taking advantage of someone who wants to like,

55:38please and be liked and, and, you know, good and pious. Like, so while that, you know, but also like, that's real. Like that's like, that's unfortunately like people are being put in those situations and someone is putting someone in that situation. So there is a lot of power into bringing it out into the open. I believe. Well, I would still prefer Mary, if you did not tell anyone, we had this conversation today. I, I just don't feel comfortable with it out in the world.

56:09I am going to publish an episode though. I was live streaming the whole time. Oh my God. All right. We might as well. We might as well. I'm seeing. That's a great conversation. I think we talked about some really growth is not easy. Change is not easy, but you don't get to be different unless you do different. And I think the, the world needs more people who are brave. Well, thank you, Mary, for your bravery. Uh, listeners, for your bravery listeners,

56:39uh, you know, keep an eye on your cat. You don't know what's up on your cat. Yeah. It's funny. I think that cat stuff inspired by I'm taking care of a 16 year old cat right now. Oh my gosh. And I'm just so cute. And she's amazing. And we have a great relationship that we've earned, but like part of me because dogs are so my dog clients. Like I know what's going on. Cause like I, I get dogs more and I love cats too, but cats are a whole different landscape. I'm like, what is she thinking about me? So that was really fun to get that out.

57:13Next cat time. Same cat channel. So long. Thanks for listening to philosophy versus improv. Check out our homepage, philosophy, improv.com to support the effort and get an ad free experience with our post game discussions. Support us at patrion.com slash philosophy improv. This podcast is a member of the partially examined life family of podcasts.

57:44See partially examined life.com. This episode is brought to you by progressive insurance. Do you ever find yourself playing the budgeting game? Well, with the name your price tool from progressive, you can find options that fit your budget and potentially lower your bills. Try it at progressive.com progressive casualty insurance company and affiliates price and coverage match limited by state law, not available in all States. Hey, bourbon lovers, listen up. Commonwealth causes is making waves with its exclusive monthly, raffle each month.

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