PEL Presents PMP#231: Euphoric Teens

Discussing teen TV and Euphoria

0:00This episode is sponsored by Claude, the AI for minds that don't stop at good enough.

0:12You're listening to Pretty Much Pop, a culture podcast where every participant has become a star in their own right. Today we're discussing teen TV shows in light of the conclusion of the HBO's Sam Levinson teen drama Euphoria, which began in 2019, just finished its third and final season. I'm Mark Linton Meyer, barely able to see for all the glitter sparkled around my eyes. I'm Al Baker, and I could definitely still pass the 17 on TV. I'm Sarah Lynn Bruck, and this valley girl is living some fast times who will say anything to get a day off to attend Breakfast Club and perform

0:43some weird science at the head of the class that's truly some kind of wonderful. Those are the facts of life. Beautiful. This is Lawrence Ware and Euphoria, more like Euphoria should get some help. So, this is the back-to-school episode. So, we were discussing in the abstract before I had returned to Euphoria to watch the final season. Well, actually, I hadn't even watched most of season two. But anyway, thinking, yeah, let's make this the excuse to talk about whatever we've experienced in the past about teen dramas and things. Then actually getting into this show,

1:16it's highly atypical and highly idiosyncratic. But I'm just anticipating that a lot of people listening to this episode won't have necessarily watched that show in particular. So, we don't have to be too spoilery about it. But Sarah, you just had your first experience of it last week, right? And didn't get that far. No, I think I got the gist after watching three episodes, two and three quarters episodes. What the heck? Oh my gosh. I didn't hate it. But it is not for me. And actually, that made me think about teen dramas

1:50and teen movies in general. The ones that are made now are not made for me. So, it's not that I don't think that this isn't necessarily a decent show. We can talk about that, I guess. But it is definitely not for me. I did not like it. It was not to my taste. But that doesn't mean that it shouldn't be made. I'd also never seen Euphoria before prepping for this. And it was one that I knew that I kind of had to get to because everyone I know who's seen it loved it. And obviously, it's Zendaya's big

2:21and Sydney Sweeney's big coming out party. And I love both of them as performers. And just, you know, this is probably the time to note that this is the third Zendaya vehicle in a row that we've done on this podcast. So, so clearly, she's doing something right. I only got through the first season. That wasn't really because I didn't like the first season, because I really loved the first season. But I knew that the reputation of the show, well, two main reasons. First, I knew the reputation of the show was that it went downhill a little bit after those first two. Also, I, like Sarah, I kind of felt like I got what the show was about at that point. And I wasn't really sure whether two more

2:54seasons of it would necessarily be a great use of my time in understanding the show as a whole. But the main reason why I gave up on it was because I wound up just getting really into Riverdale. And I've watched three seasons of Riverdale instead of the last two seasons of Euphoria. Wow, good job, Al. Extra credit.

High school drama recurring themes

3:10Oh my goodness. I cast around a little bit for like extra supporting viewing material for the topic of like the high school drama. It's a surprisingly interesting genre, because it's not so diffused as to be meaningless, like some of the other kind of genres that we talked about. I forget there was one. Oh, yeah, hospital dramas we talked about. Eventually, we decided that the genre was so diffused to be meaningless. But there are real strong recurring themes, and real strong buckets within the genre. A hundred percent. What mainly I took away from Euphoria is that it felt like an HBO'd up version of a particular

3:45type of this show, which the one I know best is Skins. Or Degrassi, something like that. Yeah. I went back and watched some of the original Degrassi as well. And that was super interesting, because it was, it is grittier than I was expecting it to be for something in 1989. But yeah, what I got from Euphoria is like, yeah, this is the HBO standards applied to the kind of quasi-comedic, grittier, we're going to explore the real hard edge of what kids might be exposed to today, that kind of genre. So it's not really, whereas a lot of other of

4:17these shows lean far more in the kind of soapy, coming of age kind of genre. And another really hard edge, which is why the one that Riverdale belongs to, is for some reason, it's a high school, but there's absurd levels of corruption, and sometimes, you know, supernatural elements happening in the local vicinity. And for some reason, a group of usually girls at this high school are the only people who can get themselves in gear to sort it out, which is, I'm realizing now, probably my favorite genre of teen drama, although it's certainly the most trashy.

4:48Okay, so for the record, I didn't think that I would like the show, but I ended up loving it. And I started watching it many years ago. And the reason why I started watching it was because me and my students were like, you've got to watch this show, because they know I'm a film critic, and they know that I'm deep into television shows. And so they tried to get me to watch many things. Gossip Girls, I tried to watch it, didn't like it. Pretty Little Liars, I tried to watch it, didn't like it. But they really were like, yo, you got to watch Euphoria. And it really spoke to them. Like, it really spoke to that group of

5:19individuals. And so I watched it, and I didn't think that I was going to like it, but I ended up really enjoying it. And it's fantastical, and it's over the top, and it's really silly in places. But thinking back on teenage dramas, all of them are kind of like that. Like Heather's is like that to a degree. I hear what Sarah is saying, because oftentimes it is made for your sensibilities when you're a teen. But when you become an adult, you oftentimes don't really want to mess with it that much, especially newer ones. That's the reason why all the different ones that they tried to introduce me to didn't work for me. But the reason why

5:52this one did work for me was because this one was unusually high quality, and Zendaya was doing something special, and Sidney Sweeney was doing something special, and Jacob Elordi was doing something special. And then there's Maude Apatow who was doing something special. And then there's like Minka Kelly randomly in the show, and Coleman Domingo's in the show. And so like all the performances kind of elevated the material that was otherwise kind of based, because oftentimes these teen shows are not populated with like genuinely good actors. And this one just is. And it's just something about it. And there were chances that were being

6:27made in the cinematography and the direction and the storytelling style that really kind of spoke to me. I don't know. And so it's not necessarily the content of the show that was really working for me, but rather the performances was what was working for me. And the filmmaking style is what really kind of drew me in. And for some reason, I watched all three seasons right when they came out. And then I looked around, and I noticed that all my students were watching it, and they were discussing it. And it was like a hot topic about, did we like what they did with this character? Or

6:57is this a realistic portrayal of life in high schools today? And me are like, yeah, it is, but it's a little over the top, but it is an accurate portrayal. It's just very interesting. And it showed me that things have changed so much because when I was in teenager, man, OnlyFans and all that kind of stuff was just, we didn't have that. Like you would maybe sneak and get like a weird magazine at the store and look at it or something like that. Or you'd watch porn or something like that. If you can find, get your hands on like a videotape, but like having it

7:30as readily accessible and their hormones being over the top, it kind of makes sense what the show is doing in a weird kind of lurid way. So yeah, I don't know. I really enjoyed the show. One thing that I need to do that people have been telling me for years to watch, and I never did it. I always resisted it, was watching Riverdale. It was just something about that show. It's so many episodes. I'm just not into a show that has that many episodes per season because it doesn't have like 20 or something like that. It's just, it's a lot of episodes, but man, everyone who watches it

8:02seems to love it. So maybe I need to watch that show. But anyway, Al, you can convince me easily. I think you have convinced me. I'm watching that damn show probably starting tonight. The best thing to say about Riverdale is that it's a really great sociological experiment to see what happens if you give all of the control of a show entirely to the writers and don't let anybody else have a say because they just do, the writers just do whatever they like. And the actors, you can see in their performances how incredibly annoyed they are to be having to like do and say the absolute batshit stuff that these writers are putting

8:35in front of them. But the thing is, I read the comic books. I read the comic books that Riverdale is based on. I loved those comics. Those comics were weird, but I kind of enjoyed them. So I'm interested to see what they do with that show. I have to watch it. I have to watch it. Anyway, bottom line, Euphoria, I really enjoyed it. I think it's definitely worth watching. It's not for everyone, but if you can get on its wavelength and you can appreciate like the filmmaking and the performances, it's really, really good. And I see why all the stars on that show broke

9:06out the way that they did because they're giving very interesting, good, nuanced performances to a person. All right, I'm done.

Addiction and grit in season three

9:13Let me say a couple of general things about the premise and we could talk about that in terms of teen shows and Euphoria has a really interesting, you know, let's be as gritty as we can be. And how are teens lives different today, given all the stuff they have to deal with, with the social media pressures and that online bullying and the prescription drugs and the pornography. Yes, exactly. The way that that show goes, because that's a one writer show that is Sam Levinson. It is based on this Israeli thing, which I was not able to watch any of, but HBO

9:44got the rights to that thing and then just put it in this guy's hands. And so maybe I imagine that the beginning with the ensemble of characters owes something. Certainly the main character's addiction comes from that original show, but then Sam just took it wherever he wanted to go. And so after the first season, like, okay, we did that. We sort of stayed that. Now I really want to focus on addiction because that's the thing that he's really passionate about that he had in his own background. And then particularly after Angus Cloud died from drug related things

10:18after season two. Oh my God, that guy died? So the entire season three, and this is from the, like, Looking Back special that I watched, you know, right after finishing the season. So really the arc of season three is even more about addiction and it becomes a whole crime drama thing. Like, it's not just the addiction in the ordinary setting, but becomes sort of a low rent Breaking Bad, Better Call Saul. Like, we want to introduce these gangster characters that are kind of jokey. And to my mind, way too much of it was

10:51focused on that. Like, it became a different show and one that I didn't like as much and was kind of ridiculous, despite the, you know, very heartfelt inclusion of all the addiction stuff. But like, there's this episode right near the end of season two, which is a chase scene through the entire thing because Rue is back on the sauce and she's being taken to rehab and she jumps out of the car and just is... So a series of her going to different houses and trying to get drugs or get money to get drugs and running from the cops. And it's just like, that is the highlight of the show as far as I can

11:26recall. It has been a number of years since I saw season one. So I don't remember exactly how cool that gets. Nah, season one is better. Okay. But that is a really striking episode. Yeah. And I really do like the chances that the directors and the writer takes in that episode. It's really striking. The cinematography is great on that. But no, season one is better. A lot of the stuff that they depict, like, they go over the top, but that is real stuff. Like, that is real things that kids are dealing with. Like, I can say this from personal experience, working with kids on a day-to-day

12:01basis, not just teaching them, but like, I'm more of the Africana Center. So I'm dealing with a lot of my black students on like a personal basis, trying to get them help. And I'm already dealing with kids who are dealing with addiction and someone had an overdose. And we're just in the second week of classes. Like, this is a real thing that they're dealing with. And so the show is over the top and it is kind of silly, but it is dealing with real stuff that kids are dealing with right now. And so it's just interesting. And I think that the inclusion of a trans character with a trans actor is really smart because that is something that is going on right now.

12:33She's great too. It genuinely reflects what the kids are going through in 2026, even though it is over the top and silly. And I do completely agree with you, Mark. That third season, although I'm kind of a sucker for Westerns and it kind of goes into Westerns territory with the way that some of the things happens in season three and the way people walk in and do shootouts. It's silly, but I'm a sucker for it. But there is something at the core that's kind of real and kind of genuine that I think is really interesting, even though it kind of goes in silly places.

13:05I do agree that the performances in this show are really good. The way that it's shot is really slick and it's freshened the genre in a new way, but they're still talking about the same topics. I feel like you could make a connection between euphoria and the facts of life. Oh, certainly. They're all talking about the same issues and it is updated, but they're still recycled. And I think it's just because teens go through the same shit and they also, they're going through it the first

13:40time. I give this show a lot of grace just because I don't personally need to see storylines about someone's struggles with drug addictions. I've seen so many storylines about someone's struggles with drug addictions. And I think that this show does that very, very well, but I think there are other things that I would rather watch that are newer and fresher to me just because I've seen that, that trope over and over and over again. Well, that's next episode is all drug addicts show. Yeah. Great. Yeah. Yeah. Or dealing with your sexuality. And, and I think the show does a great job

14:16looking at all of the nuances of that and what teens are going through and how they express themselves and how they present. I think that they do a really good job of that. But I've also seen that so many times, every generation brings something new to the table with that. In essence, we're still talking about the same things.

Emotional language and teen tropes

14:34The really interesting observation there is that it is essentially the same plot lines that you get recycled over and over again. So you get like the smart kid who takes drugs to, in order to keep up with their expectations, you get the person who is struggling with some kind of sexuality, which is difficult to disclose at the time. What really stands out for me with Euphoria is not just the artsiness, although the artsiness is really good and really helps the show. It's the emotional language, I guess, that we have access to now. And that's the thing that really changes for

15:06me, like generation on generation. So like the way that they dealt with drug addiction in Dawson's Creek, for instance, is just not as good as the way they deal with drug addiction in Euphoria. And that's not because Dawson's Creek was a mean-spirited or closed-minded show. It's because they just didn't have access to the kind of understandings of addiction or what teenagers are like. You know, and I'm not saying like we're there yet, but it is also only just recently that we have allowed ourselves as a society to recognize that teenagers do drugs and have sex quite a lot.

15:39And that's the kind of behavior which in a 90s teen drama would have been the preserve of just one fringe character who was kind of eventually brought around to good, clean, all-American living by the main cast. We now rightly let ourselves show on screen that like maybe a number of children in any given cohort are going to be struggling with similar or different issues and that they're not just going to go away because they're friends with the right kinds of people and they're not going

16:10to have a nice clean narrative wrap-up that we can do at the end of an episode. So there's kind of, I guess, advancements in storytelling and advancements in like our general understanding of the kinds of issues that kids are dealing with and the fact that we give ourselves license to talk about them with a bit more realism. I think makes these things worth revisiting. I agree mostly, Al. I think you've made some great points, especially with the language that we have to talk about that stuff. But at the same time, I think that shows and movies that feature teenagers,

16:47they're stuck within their own genre. Are we talking about a sitcom? Are we talking about a vampire show? Are we talking about at an actual soap opera? You know, so they are confined by those bounds within those shows. And I like that we're, you know, I think we stretch them as we go. And I think that you're right to a certain extent, you know, for example, gay characters until relatively recently have never had their own storylines.

17:19They've always just been the friend of the main character. And now we have gay characters, queer characters, trans characters who have their own storylines. And I think that is progress. And that's something that we haven't seen before. But I also think I'm a little bit more forgiving of, you know, something like Saved by the Bell, which is a ridiculous show, but it was also beloved. It still is beloved. You're already thinking of the drug episode of that, aren't you?

17:51I'm already thinking of that. You are totally right. I was thinking of the one from Fresh Prince of Bel-Air, which again, is exactly the same. The same thing. The exact same thing. Yes. But they're working with what they have within that genre. They can't, they can't, they absolutely, that would be so wrong for those shows to pull euphoria type of drug thing. And that's the reason why these shows kind of continue to do what they do and have the same kind of language. Cause every generation has a show like this. And so it may not be for everyone.

18:23As you get older, you may be like, I've seen that before or whatever, but it speaks to that generation. It just does, you know, because for me, it was Saved by the Bell and Fresh Prince. Another generation, it was Degrassi. Another generation, it was Facts of Life, even though I watched it too. I guess I'm old. Although I will never forget Jesse's turn in Saved by the Bell with her addiction to caffeine pills. Anyway, the bottom line is that that was just something that kind of keeps happening over and over again. And it's riskier now. It's more adult now. Euphoria is definitely HBO'd up. I mean, I imagine that if it was on NBC, it would not

18:58be as risky as it is, but let the kids have what they want, man. It's something about it. It works. Kids go through the same things. They have updated it, but I enjoyed what I got. I really enjoyed it. And the kids freaking love the show. Like the show was a phenomenon. Yeah. And it was a big talking point about whether or not they were going to get that third season because all these stars had become such a big deal. Would they come back for this show? Angus had passed. Like it was just a lot going on, but it's something about it. And that's the

19:30reason why it keeps reoccurring because it just speaks to that generation. It speaks to every generation because we all go through the same things just in different ways.

Sponsor break and holiday prep

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Gen X teen movies and Heathers

21:45and the music as that show to be so stylized is going to be, you know, remarkable in a way that certainly saved by the bell or something like that is not going to be. Sarah, you had sort of connected this, and I'd encouraged, you know, in pitching this, sort of wanted to have a John Hughes teen movie episode, but, you know, what's the right time to do that? Or I don't know why we didn't do that exactly, but like, oh, well, we can roll that into here. I remember to connect this to Euphoria, seeing in the theater Less Than Zero, 1987. Oh my God. With Robert Downey Jr. It was an Andrew

22:23McCarthy movie. So I was expecting another one of these John Hughes things, but it's not a John Hughes movie. It is about addiction. James Spader playing his scummiest as a young person. And I was so like down and disappointed by seeing that in the theater. It's not what I, it's not what I wanted. I wanted something fun. I don't know. The book was better. I think what you sort of speak to is how generationally tied we are to these teen movies and teen television shows. And there were far fewer

22:55teen television shows for me coming up. I'm smack dab in the middle of Gen X. I watched this stuff throughout the eighties and sort of ended with 90210. I think 90210, they were just, they were playing teenagers that were just a couple of years younger than me. But that whole period, even if it didn't necessarily speak to my experience, I was fascinated at watching these beautiful people just blow up

23:26their lives. Whatever it was they were doing. I absolutely, like Heathers is one of my all-time favorite movies ever. Well, I was gonna ask about Heathers. Yeah. It is one. I think you had the best period of teen media because in, I mean, the nineties had, like we had decent TV shows, but you had to wait until like, but you had to wait until like Clueless for there to be like a really good teen movie in the nineties. And you got, yeah, all the John Hughes and Heathers and even like the Revenge of the Nerds kind of weird sub-genre too. That was just all happening.

23:59I wrote a big list of all of the movies that totally hit for me and it's long. It is really, really long. There's at least 20 movies on here that just absolutely. And I, and I was kind of struck by how many movies were directed at teenage audiences. I know that they had always had movies and probably in some shows that were directed toward a younger audience, but I felt like it really kind of blew up in the eighties and just got even more as we went forward.

24:29Look, there were teens going to malls and we got to, we want them to go and sit in the goddamn cinema and eat some popcorn. Yep. I was a baby in the eighties, but I never got a show or a movie directed towards me as a black kid that wasn't like a sitcom. Yeah. Um, I didn't get a serious, like I got boys in the hood, but that's in LA and it's a crime drama essentially. Yeah. It's a teen movie, but it's a crime drama. Menace to society. That's a crime drama. All the stuff that I grew up on. And I love those things and I've written about them for the

25:01New York times and I've lauded them and I love them, but I didn't get like a lighthearted, but also drama that was directed towards me. Right. Especially in the eighties. I got done with that in the eighties, but even on TV on TV, it was, you know, fresh principle air family matters, you know, but those were all jokey. They weren't really taking anything seriously. It wasn't a deep, genuine, serious exploration of being a black kid at that time and period. And so I felt lost in that. And so I'm

25:32happy that people who come from my background now begin to see themselves in a lot of stuff because now there's the shy. Now there's other things that are out there that you can now watch and kind of see yourself reflected, you know, and that I think is also an important part of why euphoria is important because you do see yourself reflected. If you're a trans, you see yourself reflected. If you're a black person, you see yourself reflected in the show. And so I think that there's also some value there into why that show is significant and

Diversity and wealth in teen shows

26:00important and worthwhile. Is it that much better now? Because all of the big teen dramas that I know of, they're all diverse in their casting and their storytelling, but they also kind of strike me as white. Yeah, they're pretty white. I mean, I mean, they're diverse, but yeah, they try to bring in a little bit of diverse perspective, but at the core, you're right. They're largely white. You're right about that. All the kids in these shows are also all very wealthy, even when they're supposed to be the poor kid, because I think, and I think this is just a

26:31function of like dramatic necessity because you need the characters to be able to drive themselves around to different places where the plot can happen. So you're not going to have kids who have to take the bus everywhere. And like everyone has, you know, big houses and what have you. But it's also notable that, I mean, maybe this is also just because of 90210 and other shows like the OC kind of in its wake that gets because wealthy postcodes are glamorous and you get to have beautiful people walking around in expensive clothes. And that just adds a bit of value to the show.

27:02And affluenza, right? The kids can only get into this kind of trouble because they have so much privilege and time on their hands and they've been set up for such success. And, you know, the human condition is to at least a significant number of people are going to rebel against that and not want to be in this little box that they've been put in. Yeah. And it gives you at least a half a dozen of the repeating plots that we've talked about already, just setting up everyone to be wealthy.

27:32I mean, I will say there is On My Block, though. That's a Netflix show that you guys might even even know anything about. But On My Block was super duper popular with Black and Latinx kids. And it was not about wealthy kids. It was about people who were kind of coming up and they were not wealthy and they did have to take the bus and they were living in less than ideal living situations, which I thought was good. And my kids loved that show and they were very sad when it went off. I mean, so there are examples and there's The Shy. There's also Swagger, which is kind of based

28:05on Kevin Durant's life, which is a teen show kind of that's on Apple TV, but it's more of a sports show. I mean, so there are other examples there. They just don't break through. They don't become as big as like a euphoria or something like that. One of the shows I really liked as a teen show that I watched as a preteen was Fame. Oh, my God. Which, speaking of the original movie, having a gay character or, you know, he's discovering that he's gay is like one of the main plot lines. He's like the main character. And then

28:36Irene Cara, you know, so diverse cast. But that was more about just how weird like an all music school is. So like, yes, we have that. But it was and it was set in New York and all those kids, those kids were not rich. Right. So we have the continuity, like with Glee and even Riverdale did a musical thing at some point of like it does the high school musical. It does seem like there's there's something. I mean, that's I guess high school is when most people have their theater experience. So there's going to be Rise was another show specifically about that doing the high school drama thing.

29:10I didn't know that Fame was a TV show. Like, I know the movie. I didn't know it was a TV show. It was a TV show. Oh, my God. That was appointment television for me. That was the 80s, right? Yes. It was super 80s. Yeah. I think. Yeah. And we were young when it came out. Yeah. That movie was I was way too young. Yeah. That was quite a rated R movie. And yes. But interesting how it presages. So the Irene character, she is, you know, trying to be a big star and she gets pulled into this thing and she has to take her top down and be photographed. And she's crying about, you know, that this

29:44is sort of that that sort of corruption that is available to you, you know, comparing to what happens in Euphoria.

29:52Yes. Especially in season three. Things are just different now. Yeah. I mean, because now people are pulling down their tops to make money. Things are just different. There's a whole Only Flans subplot in the season three of Euphoria. Did you say Only Flans? Only Flans.

30:13I would definitely subscribe to Only Flans. I'd be down for that one. That's a mediocre improv scene waiting to happen.

30:23So having not seen seasons two and three of Euphoria, I really want to get your opinion, Mark and Lawrence, on like how far the show sacrifices its artistic integrity on the altar of Sidney Sweeney being willing to get naked for whatever. On season three, I think it really sacrifices a lot, Mark. What do you think? Yeah. It's just so uneven. The choices they made, I kind of raised this on WhatsApp before we, you know, the fact that season three is so weird and it's so not high school, right? It's years

30:56later. The characters is years later. So it almost makes me want to like, what if Freaks and Geeks had season two now? And have all those famous actors like just as adults. Because that's basically the equivalent of what's happening with this. And so it's such a different show. And obviously they pay a lot of tribute to Angus Cloud, who's dead. But like one of the main characters, the one who is, you know, struggling with her weight and like, she's just not on the show anymore. And she's never

31:29mentioned. I mean, it's years later, they're not in high school anymore. So there's no reason that everybody would be hanging around. But still, it seemed like, oh, she's just doing too many movies. So like, she wasn't involved in this season or something. So it's definitely focusing on, oh, we have Sydney Sweeney. We have Zendaya. What fun do we want to have with those big stars now? I kind of respect it to a degree because they respect time. They understand that there's been years that have passed. And so as a result, they try to like catch up with people where they

32:03would be. It's silly, but where they would be at that point in time, instead of like artificially making people stay in high school and we know that they're like 30, you know, and so I kind of respected it, but it was almost like a different show that third season. The first two seasons, they were in concert. It was kind of the same thing. That third season was just such a weird, different thing, but it was fun. It was entertaining. I had fun. I don't know what to say. Like I had fun with it. I enjoyed it, but it was just a different thing.

Riverdale and absent parents

32:33Most of these high school shows fall apart once they graduate high school. I mean, it's, and I think the audience ends up going down like once facts of life, they graduated, what did they do to keep them all together? Didn't they open up like a candy store or something? It was something really stupid. And, and how are you going to keep Mrs. Garrett around? You know, it's just, it all, anyway, saved by the bell, the college years, not as good, you know, 90210 when they went to college, it was like, it was such a stretch trying to keep everybody right there in that stupid beach

33:05house. I mean, it was just, I know that time is ticking and I also know that these things sort of print money, but I think we need a hard cutoff. Once you graduate, you got to think of something else, guys. Let me again, turn the conversation back to Riverdale because like, you're a big fan of this show, man. I am. I want to, I want to mention Pretty Little Liars in the same breath, because that's also a show that I've got a lot of fondness for, for a lot of the same. I couldn't get into that. I just couldn't get it. It was so silly to me. I couldn't get into that one. That's on you, but it's big. It's exactly because they're silly. I love these shows because

33:38they know exactly what they are and really lean into it. But for instance, by the end of season two of Riverdale, Archie is in prison. There are three serial killers on the loose. There's like two different supernatural cults going. There's two different biker gangs. Everyone's either a crime lord, a drug lord, a corrupt politician, or as I say, in prison. I've got to watch this show. I have to watch it. I have to watch it. It's got so little to do with high school by that point that

34:08it really doesn't matter. Like you barely even remember to ask whether they're going to class or not, which is one of the benefits of having the show be about teenagers ostensibly, but not about high school. And also like everyone's in their mid twenties already when they're playing 17. So it really, it really isn't a stretch. How many seasons is Riverdale still going? Is it over? It's over, but it went a long time. It went a really long time. Okay. Well, I'm going to watch two seasons. I'm not going to watch. Another thing that really jumps out at me, it seems like every

34:40single one of these, except maybe the facts of life, not French friends as well, but most of these shows don't have parents. Like euphoria is where, where are the parents saved by the bell? There's like an episode where the dad and something, but it largely, they don't have parents. And so that's kind of something that all these shows share now, now facts of life, Mrs. Garrett, like she was a part of it, but all of the parents weren't there. I mean, so it seems to be a kind of common denominator that you do the show and you kind of sideline the parents for the most part.

35:11Absolutely. I mean, again, these are shows for teenagers and who wants to hear from the parents? Like why, why should they get an opinion? Why should they be showing up and taking the limelight? I noticed the same thing in euphoria that the parents were so peripheral, except for the Eric Dane character who is odious. Oh, big writer word. Odious, big old writer word. Look at you, Sarah. You're, you, it's a good one. Holy crap. But I love that the parents are just kind of basically non-existent in these shows. And that's

35:45directly because of who's watching it. Are the parents in 90210? I don't remember. Like I, I didn't really watch it that much, but they also like, they were, I think at the beginning in the first season when they were still kind of finding their footing, the parents' storyline was they had the Walshes with the twins, Brendan and Brenda were moving from Minnesota or something like that.

36:15They're moving from the Midwest to glitzy Beverly Hills. And so there was this fish out of water storyline for both the kids and then also for the parents. And the parents' storyline was so ridiculous that the mother, now that she was in Beverly Hills, felt like she had to get a housekeeper and she felt very uncomfortable having this housekeeper when she had always cleaned her own house. And I was so happy that they just sort of like pushed the parents out. I was like, we don't

36:48need to, Hey, I'm 19. I don't need to know any of this information about you lady. Go ahead. I feel like we're raising the issue of who these are actually aimed at, right? That fame, even though it was about teens was a, the TV show. I feel like I was the, you know, as age nine or whatever the hell I was watching it. I feel like that was about, about maybe, maybe I was 12. I don't know. I don't even know. And euphoria is probably mostly aimed at adults. Like if kids can be into it, but they maybe shouldn't, I don't know. I mean, it's HBO, right? It's aimed at HBO

37:24audience. My experience is that a lot of teenagers, freshmen, sophomores in the college love that show. So I really don't know who it's aimed at. I mean, I know that the adults can appreciate it, but a lot of teens, man, and early, early twenties really love that show. It's a young audience. I think it's like at least 40% is under 34. So I think they, they get huge numbers in that really young demographic. And that's the demographic that they want. They want that 18 to like 30 something road.

37:55That's like the target demographic. 18 to 34. That's a target demographic that they want to hit. And they're getting it. Somebody mentioned the, the, uh, the deviation into, uh, Revenge of the Nerds, you know, the teen sex comedies, which were, you know, it's the rated R. So you have to be over 17 or whatever to see it. They're all aimed at people under 17, 13 year olds. Like that is the, the audience. How did you watch it? They didn't card you guys when you were walking into the movie theater? How did you watch it? You don't see these things in the theater. They're on VHS. I saw Revenge of the Nerds airing on network TV at midnight. Guys, that was a joke. That was a joke.

38:30I watched, I watched all my stuff on VHS. I know how you watched it. I know how you watched it. Riverdale is, it seems like it's enough of a CW thing that is sort of aimed at young people. But so that was one that the adults are quite active in that and have like equal storyline, but they're almost all ex-teen actors that it's Luke Perry. Yes. The fact that it's Luke Perry and Molly Wingrell, where Molly Wingrell is turning out. There is a really brilliant episode. My favorite one that I've seen where they do a flashback to the parents' time as teenagers. There's a brilliant storyline involving a new game

39:07called Griffins and Gargoyles, and they're doing the Satanic Panic kind of thing. But the show, I think, really missed the trick because it had the main cast playing their parents as teenagers, which was charming. But what I really wanted to see was Luke Perry playing himself as a teenager. Again, age 50 or something. He would definitely have been up for it. Holy crap. Riverdale went for seven seasons? What the heck? I can't believe this. It's a mystery. The OC also had a heavy parent presence. I used to love the OC. Oh my gosh, I loved that show.

39:39And I watched the OC as a bonafide grownup. And I remember being a little appalled when I went and looked up the mother's ages. They were playing mothers of teenagers, and they were like in their early to mid-30s. I thought, oh, that's... And then, of course, the guys were all 48.

40:03But anyway, I was like, oh, man. I love the OC. I love that little... He was a blonde bad boy. I forgot what his name was. Ryan. I love that dude. He was from the Inland Empire. He was the poor one. Yeah. I don't know what Inland Empire is. I have no idea what that is. A Party of Five. That wasn't teenagers, was it? That was older. Oh, yeah. A Party of Five. And then Melrose Place. Were they teenagers? Melrose was older. No, no. They were 20-something. Well, it was older. Yeah. I just remember... Fox just had this thing where they had a whole bunch of those shows around the same time.

40:37And I remember trying to watch them and then realizing they were so white, and then I stopped watching them. I think it was because 90210 was such a big hit that it was like 100 things in the mold of that, despite it being bad. And the main actress on 90210 who left... Shannon Doherty. Shannon Doherty. Well, yeah, I guess they did the same with Happy Days, right? Like, these things overlast their main characters. And I don't know. That ruins it for me. Shannon Doherty's not still with us, is she? Didn't she pass?

41:08She died of breast cancer, like, last year or a year before. Yeah, man. I know. But Kelly, the blonde popular one on 90210 was the crossover into Melrose Place. I watched a lot of that TV. It's clear you did, Sarah. You were the target demographic. I think she was involved with Grant's show. I have no idea. Like, you're speaking Latin to me. I don't know any of that. Yeah, those were the days. That was appointment television for me.

Showrunners and supernatural genres

41:38Freaks and Geeks, like, that is, of course, you know, a classic of the genre and was canceled. But then they immediately made Undeclared, which is like half the same cast, but in college playing different characters. Also canceled. And that's not even streamable and didn't make the same mark. But just make a new show. If everybody gets older, you know, this might be the end of Euphoria, but I'm sure that the showrunner, the writer can do anything that he wants now. So just like make the next Sam Levinson thing. And that'll be the same kind of brand that of the Vince Gilligan thing.

42:13Like, I think that is just as much. You don't have to have a show go 10 seasons. Just have have the showrunner make a different show. And maybe that'll be just as good. I don't know. Obviously, that doesn't always work, right? Babylon 5, I think, you know, Michael Straczynski tried to do other things and they never caught hold. So maybe like often it's a combination of elements that sets fire. It's not the showrunner. So it might even be that Sam Levinson will only do little niche things from now on because he's not the... Is Sam Levinson going to find two

42:45generational talents in his next TV show? Well, I mean, he tried to do The Idol with The Weeknd, and it was a disaster. A disaster of a show with The Weeknd and Lily Rose Depp. Like that was disastrous experience. Like everyone hated that show. So he tried to do this and I think he had to go back to euphoria, honestly. And almost everything else he tried to do kind of didn't work. Like he did that one movie on Netflix with Zendaya and John David Washington, Malcolm

43:17and Marie. I remember that it was like 2021 or something like that. That didn't work. I don't know, man. I think that Sam Levinson, this might be the end for him unless he just finds a way to do something else. Cause like everything else he's tried to do kind of didn't work. That's pretty gloomy. I mean, it's honest. It's, it's, it's, it's so business. But it kind of holds out that the season three is basically him trying to do a different kind of show, but under the euphoria name that that's the sort of cheating. And, and it did seem like, I don't know that this

43:48guy, even though he's a talented director and the dialogue and the, you know, he's doing something right, but maybe he does not deserve the, I have soul decision-making power auteur status. Like there's some people that should work in a group. Riverdale is written by a group. It's even though there's one guy in charge. Yeah. I like a writer's room. I think that generally makes things better. Any shows, themes, stuff that we have not brought up yet that we are excited about. I mean, there's so many sub genres. We didn't cover the supernatural

44:19sub genre. Does that count? It's teen stuff. It counts. Yeah. There's ones like the vampire diaries, which are far more like teen drama show than they are. That's almost a soap opera, that show. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. And that is a show that's run for dozens of seasons. I did watch one season of that. I don't know how I got sucked into that, but I did watch. And there was also a spinoff, Al, you might be able to help me, of Pretty Little Liars. It was like a serial killer something or another. And I heard good things about it. I don't know. I don't remember what it was, but I heard good things. Oh, Ravenswood? Ravenswood. Yes, yes, yes. Yeah. It becomes fully

44:54supernatural at that point. Yes. It's weird how in so many of these shows, did you, you said you read Archie Comics? Yeah, I did. Yeah. I read quite a few. A huge pleasure of mine, just incidentally, in watching Riverdale was learning about Archie because Archie Comics has just been a punchline to me from the Simpsons and Family Guy. And I didn't realize it's been running since 1943 and it has been a regular comic book. So do they do that, those weird storylines in that comics too, or is it just a very by the numbers? There's like the mainstream Archie and then they do that,

45:25the weird stuff with Archie. And the weird stuff, they absolutely do the stuff that you see in Riverdale. A lot of the stuff, I imagine, as I said, I haven't seen the show, but I imagine a lot of the stuff that's happening in Riverdale is coming from the comics. Like they do really weird off-kilter stuff. Because it's canonically the same universe that Sabrina the Teenage Witch happens in. Yeah, it is. So magic is real. And that's what I love. Yeah, I just have a real fondness for these shows. And there's also a Netflix show, I can't remember the name of it, that's based off

45:56of like an Archie character. I forgot what the Netflix show was. Besides Sabrina? Yeah, it's Sabrina. But the Netflix show is not winky winky. The Netflix show is like dead ass serious and leans really into the horror. But I'm gonna be honest, man, when they start doing the supernatural stuff, you guys know I'm a horror guy. Like they kind of start speaking my language. So like the craft, I love the craft. Like that kind of stuff really kind of speaks to me for some reason. And I guess there is a connection, again, in like, I'm a teen, I'm discovering myself, I'm whatever, in like, well,

46:26let's explore witchcraft if you're exploring different stuff. Yeah, I mean, that's it. I was just gonna say, the theme's all converged. Like so much of horror is about sexuality and like body horror is all about that kind of stuff as well. You can, I mean, this is why Buffer the Vampire Slayer remains one of one of the greatest TV shows ever, because it made that thesis completely explicit. And the show is a complete triumph on the basis of the thesis that being a teenager is a horrifying experience. And every day is a horror movie. And it works fantastically. One thing that I was drawn to in Euphoria was the subject of friendship. And that is such a huge

47:03theme across the board in teen movies and television shows, because it's such a huge part of their lives. And you don't necessarily see that as much in adult dramas and comedies. It's not really pushed to the forefront as much as subject matter. And I thought that was actually the one thing in Euphoria that I thought was very, very sweet, especially the relationship between Rue and the transgender woman. Jules.

47:34Yes. Thank you. That relationship I thought was just so tender and precious. I really, I just wanted to go in and protect them. But I found that that is something that is really deeply explored in ways that you don't see outside of that teen genre. Power of friendship. Right. Well, now you're making me want to look at DTF St. Louis as an overgrown teen drama. That's right. That's right. That is about. Yeah. Yeah. But it's unusual.

48:05How weird friendship as adults, how rare, you know, that you basically have to regress and be discovering things about yourself to have that kind of friendships. I mean, it's harder to meet other people. I mean, you know, we all just get established in our lives and our own friendships. It's hard to make new friends as you get older. You have to have a podcast or something. Something. The friendship theme made me remember that we haven't mentioned anime at all, which is obviously where probably by volume, the overwhelming majority of shows that can be classified as teen

48:36dramas are in fact animes. Nowadays they are. And the vast majority of them also explore the power of friendship in different levels of literality. You keep saying the power of friendship. It makes me, it makes me feel weird. I don't know why. I don't know why the power of friendship phrase. The power of friendship, the power of friendship, the friendship of power.

Anime and teen friendship themes

48:59It is interesting to think about whether your teen drama that has supernatural or whatever elements, is it really about being a teen in that environment or is it really about that other element? Right. And Veronica Mars is one that got to college. Okay. Because it's really about a girl detective. It's really not about, I mean, it'd be, it was a teen soap opera. Hmm. So I'm thinking like whether these, my hero academia or whatever, I don't watch too many of these anime things that like, but whether if it's really just a super, yeah, a death note is one

49:29that I read the whole thing of. And I think it starts as he's in school, but then he's out in the real world and it doesn't, it doesn't matter because it's about, it's about, you know, this weird Twilight Zone episode of, I write somebody's name in a book and they die. And can the police catch me for doing this? It's not really about being a teen. Yeah. Cause in the ones that it's just, it just so happens that every lead, every protagonist in an anime is a teenager, but that doesn't mean that every anime is a teen drama, but you're also also working on animation rules. You get to have your main cast be in high school for 20 years. It's

49:59sure. That's what has to happen. Is, is the last airbender is, is that a teen drama? No. Yeah. No, it's not. It's not a really, I mean, they're not in school. Not really. They're not in school. I mean, they're kind of in school, but they're not in school really. But they're learning. There's the power of friendship. Yeah. I mean, core core is more of a teen drama than, than the last airbender, but we're getting into nerd territory there. Well, I think that we should name drop a couple more of these things in the after talk that is

Recommendations and final thoughts

50:33patreon.com slash pretty much pop. Any final thoughts, go around the horn one more, either give a recommendation or give some other. Yeah. Cause I didn't, I didn't get a chance to see it. The pilot episode of Degrassi Junior High is available on YouTube as, as is the whole series. And the pilot episode is actually really gritty and disturbing in no small part because the actor I think is a genuine teenager and they're having her do a plot, which is quite uncomfortable. Since we're talking about Degrassi, just shout out to wheelchair Jimmy. I hope, I hope he's

51:03doing okay.

51:06We didn't talk about historical ones. The Anne of Green Gables Netflix series, I thought was, was pretty good. It's just called Anne that, that has some of the sort of high school. Yeah. But it's like a one room high school in. Anne of Green Gables. Are you really recommending people to watch Anne of Green Gables? What are we doing here? Sorry, Sarah, go ahead. I don't think I'll be revisiting Euphoria anytime soon, but I probably will do a rewatch of,

51:37of Heather's, which I've seen dozens of times. Have you seen the musical? At this point, Matt. The musical's great. Oh, I have not seen the musical. Heather's musical is fantastic. If you're a big fan of the movie, you'll, you'll adore it. Okay. I should give one tip on the air, which is when you get to the end of Euphoria season one, the special episodes go right then. They're not even part of the, they're, they're, so I didn't notice them until the very end of the whole show. And then I watched them last night. I'm like, this is not fun here. Like maybe I would have appreciated where it goes.

52:09In between where it goes. That's a good tip. But now I'm just, this is boring. I don't know why I'm. That is a good tip. They're long monologues. Cause it was a, it was a pandemic thing. It was a, we're supposed to be working on season two, but we can't cause it's the pandemic. So we'll do two episodes. That's just like Rue and Ali, her sponsor talking, talking, talking for the whole hour. So it's my dinner with Andre. And then, then the equivalent one with Jules and her therapist talking the whole time. And, you know, as much as I feel like, Oh yes. Dialogue, philosophical stuff. Like I was bored.

52:42My dinner, my dinner with Andre is so much better than those little small episodes to be sure. Anyway, but maybe they would have been better in context. They would have been. Or, or if I was starved for the show in the pandemic. People were, people were starved for the show. And so that was like a whole thing that people were excited that they got those little nuggets. But yeah. It doesn't hold up now. Not at all. All right. Thanks everybody for listening. Bye guys. Bye bye. Bye. Thank you.

53:10Pretty Much Pop is part of the Partially Examined Life podcast network. Get more Pretty Much Pop at prettymuchpop.com. Get bonus content for every episode at patreon.com slash prettymuchpop. Bye bye. Bye bye. Bye bye. Bye bye. Bye bye. Bye bye. Bye bye. Bye bye. Bye bye. Bye bye. Bye bye. Bye bye. Bye bye. Bye bye. Bye bye. Bye bye. Bye bye. Bye bye. Bye bye. Bye bye. Bye bye. Bye bye. Bye bye. Bye bye. Bye bye. Bye bye bye. Bye bye. Bye bye bye. Bye bye bye. Bye bye bye. Bye bye bye. Bye bye bye. Bye bye bye. Bye bye bye. Bye bye bye bye. Bye bye bye bye bye.