PEL Presents PMP#221: Streep Does Prada

Introduction

0:00So, you're running out of closet space. The good news? You don't need to stop shopping. You just need to start selling with The RealReal. The RealReal is the world's largest and most trusted resource for authenticated luxury resale. Whether it's that mini bag that can't even fit your phone or those boots you never fully broke in, The RealReal handles everything, from photography and copywriting to shipping and pricing. So you can just sit back, get paid, and make room for things that actually feel like you. And with 10,000 plus new arrivals every single day from top designers like Prada, Céline, Louis Vuitton, and Louie Bay,

0:34all for up to 90% off retail, you're bound to find something perfectly on-brand to fill that extra closet space with. Plus, this May only, you can get an extra $200 to shop when you sell for the first time. Make room for what feels like you. Go to TheRealReal.com to start selling and get your extra $200 to keep shopping at TheRealReal.com. That's TheRealReal.com.

Podcast Introduction

0:55Terms apply. This is Pretty Much Pop, a culture podcast with a commitment to beauty, artistry, the best of human achievement. Today we're discussing the films of Meryl Streep in light of the release of The Devil Wears Prada 2. I'm Mark Linton-Meyer, and should I have the chicken or the fish? It's a real Sophie's Choice. This is Al Baker, always in fashion.

1:27This is Sarah Lynn Bruck, that's all. This is Lawrence Ware, and I may have overstayed my welcome, very much like The Devil Wears Prada. Well, I think we know where Lawrence stands on yet another, was it as bad an experience as the follow-up to Spinal Tap? No. No. No, we're near. No, we're near. Oh my God. No. It was light years better than that movie. But still had the, like, you like these characters, right? You just want to spend some more time with them. That's kind of most of the point.

1:59Pretty much, yeah. A lot of nostalgia. That was the point. And you had to jump through an awful lot of plot hoops to get the characters in the rooms where you wanted them to do. The things that you wanted them to do. And everyone's prepared to ignore all of that. But ultimately, it just reminded me of some of the reasons why I liked the first movie.

Devil Wears Prada Analysis

2:18Honestly, that is exactly how I felt. I'm sure that there are people who love the movie. I mean, it made a lot of money. But honestly, Scream 7 made a lot of money and it wasn't very good. I mean, so making a lot of money is not necessarily a testament to quality. But it's clear to me after watching that movie that I really, really loved part one. And part two was fine. It was a Hallmark Christmas movie version of part one. But a lot sadder. A lot sadder. Yeah, I thought that it had a good premise, right? The state of the media. Okay, that's a good thing. Let's check in where our characters are at. I didn't feel like the Andy character had evolved enough since the first film.

3:01I wouldn't say he evolved at all. She was still the manic pixie dream girl spreading light and joy in whatever room she came in that she served in the first one. Oh, I don't know about that. I mean, I felt like she definitely had more confidence. She definitely felt like a character that had grown since she first started working for Miranda Priestly. She had more confidence. She knew who she was. I felt like she finally got rid of that stupid boyfriend of hers.

3:32And I felt like she was kind of far more comfortable in her own skin in the second movie. It doesn't make the movie great by any stretch. But I did feel that she had evolved for sure.

Fashion Industry Commentary

3:46The thing that both movies were praising, how something like Vogue was the center of culture in a way that some peons like me do not appreciate, but should be lauded as the high art that it is, even though now, and even at the time, you know, there are a lot of ads involved, right? It's a quite a commercial enterprise, but nonetheless, we really should not take for granted such institutions, such things that have been built by talented geniuses. Yeah. What do we think of that? The whole conceit of the film of why you should care about these people in the first place.

4:27So I think the fact that I like Devil Wears Proud of the first movie, and I genuinely do like the first Devil Wears Proud of the movie. And I think the fact that I like that says a lot of very good things about me as a critic, because it is ultimately a movie that, as you say, Mark, celebrates a lot of things that I think are frankly despicable. Nowhere is that made more explicit for me than in the rightly lauded, that jumper is Cerulean speech that Meryl Streep gives in the first movie, because it's perfectly delivered. It's a wonderful example of the genre. And it's rightly kind of trotted out by fans of fashion as like a reason why, like an expression of the reasons why we think this is important.

5:07But ultimately, it's a specious argument that she's giving. She's begging the question very hard against Anne Hathaway in that scene. It's not a good reason to think that anyone involved in Vogue or in the fashion industry is doing anything particularly laudable or notable. That's kind of how I feel about the whole movie. It's a really wonderful expression of like the case for high fashion, and the case for it involving big personalities who treat people like garbage. But ultimately, I don't buy what it's selling.

Meryl Streep's Acting Ability

5:34I completely disagree with Al, honestly. I just like the movie because it is an interesting character study. I think that Meryl Streep in the first one is legitimately brilliant. Me too. The way that she embodies the character and her affectations and the way that she speaks is so amazing and jaw-dropping. And honestly, we have a lot of people in that film who are very talented. Stanley Tucci, just a lot of people who are very talented doing really good comedic things. But as far as the commentary on the fashion industry, eh. Actually, I guess I don't disagree with Al, actually. The commentary on the fashion industry, I didn't buy any of that shit.

6:16That wasn't compelling to me whatsoever. What was compelling to me was the performances, was the filmmaking, was the score. I think the score of the original movie was kind of really underrated. That was what compelled me. The whole fashion industry stuff, I couldn't care at all. But Sarah, please take the floor. No. Two things. When I first saw the movie back in 2006, I agree this is a movie about fashion and the fashion industry. But it's also equally a movie about women who work.

6:46And that is what I found most interesting about both of these movies, is that these are women who really, really identify closely with the jobs that they do. And it gives them purpose. It gives them meaning in their life. I thought it was very significant that Andy has chosen not to get married or have children by the second movie. I think that that made a lot of people feel very seen, actually. There are a lot of women making more and more, actually, women making that choice these days.

7:18And I've always been fascinated by women and women in workspaces. And this, especially this first movie, just perfectly encapsulates some of those aggressions and microaggressions that go on between women in the workplace. And I thought that was fascinating. And it was so, so well done. Well, and even the new movie, how could anything with those main actors be terrible? Like, it just can't be. The script was very competently written.

7:51It's the same writer. Yeah. And so many people you recognize that are fun and usually not distracting. Although I found, what, Timothee Chalamet's sister that was in one of the boardroom scenes. And she's like, it was distracting to me. She was too much of a good comic actor. Oh, I don't know who that is. She's the lead in The Sex Lives of College Girls. Oh, okay. I haven't seen that.

Acting Career Discussion

8:18So I suggested this sort of be a Meryl Streep episode. And I'll say this in honor of our former co-host, Erica, who had really wanted to do it at the time. But we hadn't really done just a focus on an actor or an actress. You know, there. We've done filmmakers. We've done people like this is their vision. And I'm not even totally sure how to talk about the wonderfulness of someone's acting. Like, she's very subtle. She really sinks into roles. She obviously works really hard. She can become unrecognizable. She can do accents. She can sing.

8:50But like, other than just, you know, it was an excuse to see a few films. She has way too many films to really get a handle. I know. I'm just interviewing this. I'm looking at her IMDB page right now. And I'm like, oh, man, it's incredible. She is. Yeah. And she just keeps working. She is, I would argue, our greatest film actor ever. Way too far, Sarah. Way too far. Also, in honor of Erica, I want to make her point that it's actually considered among the acting women community, you don't specify that it's an actress. You just call everybody actors.

9:29Actor. So I think you corrected me once when I called a female an actor, Lawrence. And I just want to say that's why I did that. So anyway, point to me. But she's across the board. I think she is the best film actor. You are so wrong. You're so wrong. I am so right, Lawrence. I'm so right. I know you guys are really enjoying just saying, yes, yes, she is. No, she isn't to each other. But maybe it's helpful to frame the discussion in a different way. I thought one of the reasons I thought Meryl Streep was an interesting topic for the podcast is precisely because she is so often lauded as the greatest living screen actor.

10:04That I agree with. Maybe the greatest, certainly among the greatest women. There are certainly few who can contest that title. But it was interesting because I knew her from her recent work when she was already very established as this legendary figure. And I realized that I didn't really understand much of why she had earned that reputation in the first place. And looking at her output, as we said a couple of things. Firstly, the performances she turns in are among the most impressive film performances on record.

10:36But secondly, she has worked so much over so many decades. Yes, she has. And so I thought it would be interesting to dig into, like, what do people mean when they say that Meryl Streep is a legend? What sets her apart? And why, Lawrence, would you resist? Is it because she hasn't done one of the great performances? Because that's maybe a case you could lay against her. She has a really solid body of work. But they're all in a similar kind of vein. And maybe none of them stand out as, like, among the 10, 20 great character performances on film.

11:11And that's maybe a reason why he gives. So I'm interested in how you two, who seem both very, you seem both very set in your sides of this opinion. How are you approaching the question in the first place? I'm going to let Sarah talk first before I put on my critic hat. So, Sarah, go ahead.

Meryl Streep's Filmography

11:25Okay. This is multi-pronged. First is just the amount that she works. So just like you said, Al, she has so many. She has worked consistently since 1976. She is still working. She puts out multiple movies. You know, she puts out stuff consistently all through now. So she has decades of experience under her belt. And she also has the breadth of types of projects that she takes on.

11:59So she will take on Holocaust dramas. She will take on comedies. She will play somebody who has died. She will play. I mean, she will sing in movies. She will. And one of the things that I think sets her apart is there are so many seminal performances that she has. It's hard to choose which one. Marlon Brando, you can point to one or two peak performances for him. But she has had so many peaks throughout time.

12:31Every single decade, she has one or two or three or eight peak performances. No other actor can say the same about that. She is just crushing it almost every time. She doesn't have a perfect record of films. But typically, even in films that aren't considered quote unquote good, she puts in a very solid performance. So anyway, Lawrence, you can take the floor. I'm not at all compelled by that argument.

13:01Okay, so let me say first that actually, the more that I thought about it, I forgot that there is a guy out there called Daniel Day-Lewis. I forgot that Jack Nicholson was still living. I forgot that Al Pacino, I mean, he's really good, but I wouldn't put him up there with like the greatest. Catherine Hepburn, she's passed on. Like, there are just a lot of performers who have been good. Now, the thing about Meryl Streep, she has worked very hard for a very long time, but not all of those performances are great. Not all of those performances are consistently at the best.

13:33And really, I feel, I don't like having to do this because I do love her so much. I do respect her so much. I don't want to do this. But to say that she is the greatest of all time, it just sidesteps film history. It just does. Like, it just sidesteps the fact that there was a Marlon Brando. It sidesteps the fact that there was Jack Nicholson, Daniel Day-Lewis, Denzel Washington, I would put up there as a peer of her. So the specific claim we've been trading in has been greatest living film actor and with like maybe greatest living woman film actor under that.

14:08No, no, she's set up all time. What's your position, Sarah? Are you saying all time? I stand by that. Yeah, I think all time. I think this kind of argument would lead us to, you know, it's like what sports figure is. No, no, it does not. It does not. It will lead us to talk too much about other possible contenders and get into the merits of Jack Nicholson. And I will not be drawn into debating Jack Nicholson right now. Right. I think Daniel Day-Lewis is an interesting point of comparison because Daniel Day-Lewis does similar things that Meryl Streep does in some of her roles.

14:42But Meryl Streep is much more willing to do more things. Daniel Day-Lewis is very picky. And so that's why we think he's a better actor. But that is not a good point for Sarah. Sarah, that's not a good argument for Sarah. Because she wants to do more. She's too spread. She's too spread. The only way this can be a fruitful conversation is if we look at why you two disagree. Because you're looking at different points or different qualities on which to qualify someone as great.

15:13And hearing Sarah and Mark talk about Meryl Streep clarifies for me that really the people who you see most lauding Meryl Streep are actors or other actors. She's beloved most of all by other actors, particularly other women actors. And maybe the reasons that Sarah points to are really plausible ones why, if you're an actor, you would admire Meryl Streep. Because she does a lot. Like, you might look at Daniel Day-Lewis and think, yeah, that's great. But I'm not going to be able to do one movie every ten years and then retire to become a shoemaker in Italy. My idol is someone who works, turns up, always puts in a really great performance no matter what the project is.

15:47But she doesn't always put in a great performance. She's always competent. Give an example of something that doesn't work, Lawrence. I challenge you. Mamma Mia is fine. And it's good. But it's not great. It's just not. Yeah, but that's not her. That's not her. That's the project. And she does great in it. She does fine. She is good. She is not great. I mean, there are many. There are Iron Ladies. To me, my favorite performance of her of all time is really understated. And it's adaptation. That's my favorite of hers. I love that movie.

16:18I really appreciate that movie dearly enough. As I said, I feel wrong for doing this. My whole point is that she is great, legitimately great. But she works so often that it is impossible for a person to be great in all the things that she's in. She just cannot do it. And so I really hesitate to say this. I mean, because I don't even like the question that Mark asked, like, give me a not great performance. Because I don't want to say that I don't like her. She is good. She is legitimately good in a lot of things and great in a few things.

16:51But she is in far too much to be great in all of it. And when Daniel Day-Lewis is sitting there, and he is great in everything he's done, except for the last one. Last one wasn't very good. Although he was good in it. But he's great. Like, from my left foot all the way on, he's great in all of it. I mean, yeah, he doesn't work as often. He is far more picky. But we're talking about Lincoln. We're talking about, you know, the Phantom Thread. We're talking about legitimately great performances every single time he comes on screen. I just can't give it to her.

17:22And then we have Humphrey Bogart in the background. We have Marlon Brando in the background. We have Jack Nicholson. We have all these others. So I'm just hesitant to kind of let that be. But I'm going to back off of this because this is not a fruitful conversation.

Disagreement on Meryl Streep's Greatness

17:34No one wants to listen to us argue. And so I'm going to stop here. I love her. Sarah, I love her. We agree that we love her. Okay. I love her. I just don't love her as much as you. Can we say she plays very well with others? I was surprised in trying to find films that she, you know, to refresh for this or to watch newly. There's so many things where she is not put in this position where she gets to act, where she gets to do the thing. And I think this leads to some things. Like, I started to watch The Prom.

18:06Oh, yeah. I saw that. And I realized that this is something that my wife was watching at some point. Director Ryan Murphy, she's with James Corden. And so I can't say I actually saw this film. I didn't want to watch this film because I just, it made me roll my eyes and it made me like, okay, she's just, this is just one of the things she's doing to have fun. She was a musical theater kid and she wants to do things like this occasionally. But the fact that she could be on the screen with James Corden or with Nicolas Cage and

18:38not just blow them off, you know, in a way that is insulting, right? The recent accusation against Paul Dano for appearing with Daniel Day-Lewis in There Will Be Blood, this was, which director said this, was bad-mouthing Paul Dano to say, you know what I'm talking about. Quentin Tarantino. Quentin Tarantino was saying, putting this guy up next to Daniel Day-Lewis in There Will Be Blood just shows, Daniel Day-Lewis is doing nothing but being good, but yet he makes the

19:09actor next to him who's fine, like look just like shit, like from a, from a, you know. But he's not trying to, it's just that his, his embodiment of the character is just so, I don't know. So what does it say about Meryl Streep though, that she, she actually fits where she is slotted. She's able to modulate. Meryl Streep, Meryl Streep is old school. She's a rep actor. She understands, she acts in companies. Yes. Absolutely, yeah. And that's not a competitive mindset. She doesn't have that competitive mindset. So no matter, even if she's, you know, if people think, oh, what is she doing in She

19:42Devil, right, just to pick kind of a crappy movie that she was in, why would she slum it in She Devil? But she still connects with the other actors. She plays, just like you said, she plays really, really well in a company and she is present and she's always game. And I just can't help but admire that. No matter what project she chooses, she is absolutely not there, or I don't know, I'm not in her head, but it doesn't seem like she's there to steal the spotlight necessarily

20:16or win the movie or be better than whoever, fill in the blank. She is there to contribute her part and she does so most of the time in an alarmingly high percentage. She does it very, very well.

Collaborative Acting Style

20:31Yes. This is, I think, a good time to bring up the spectra of Sophie's Choice, which I saw for the first time this week. Okay. And like a lot of the old movies that I haven't seen, we talk about on this podcast, I was familiar with the memes. Obviously, I knew the details of the choice, but I knew nothing else about the movie. Like a lot of the old movies we talk about on this, the meme abstracts so far away from the actual movie that it's so surprising when you watch the thing, how amazing, that film is incredible. And something that, so there is this legendary Meryl Streep performance

21:02and it's in there, but it also taught me why people respect Kevin Kline in the first place, which is something I had no idea of because I knew him from the nineties when he was, when he had like long given up post Fish Called Wanda. And then here he is. And the movie is just as we were talking about, it is an ensemble piece. It's just brilliant three hander between this incredible set of ingenue stars, like this amazing lightning in a bottle moment. And yet Meryl Streep puts in this phenomenal performance, which could so easily

21:33tip into caricature because she's got like this accent, she's being so vulnerable and like small. And it's just, it's just phenomenal. But it also gives the space for Kevin Kline, like the way Kevin Kline and Meryl Streep play off each other with Peter McNichol sitting awkwardly there in the background. It's just gorgeous. And it just shows you what great actors can do given the right circumstances. I don't know how Mark, I got into this position where I'm tearing down Meryl Streep. I don't know. I don't know how you guys put me in this position. She can take it. It's

22:05okay. They're going to come for you. I thought I came to this. It's going to be a love fest. And here you guys are overstating your case. And now I have to act like a freaking critic. Look, how did I have a state? What did I have a state? What is wrong with Sophie's Choice? An objectively amazing. No, no, no, no, no, no. Nothing. That's not, that's not the point. That's not the point I'm making. Here's the thing. Sophie's Choice is fine. You are right, Sarah and Al. They put that on the video box. It's fine. It's okay. It's not, it's great, but I'm so frustrated

22:36right now. I'm so frustrated with you guys right now. And let me tell you why. You're right that she oftentimes does a wonderful job of playing well with others. For example, another one of my very favorite performances of her is actually Death Becomes Her. And it's where she, it's a very underrated performance, underrated comedic performance. And she plays so well with others in that film. So that is, I agree with you, Sarah, on that point. But to say that she never blows anyone off the screen is not true. Have you ever seen The Iron Lady?

23:08Have you ever seen that movie? I actually watched it for this time. That is a really good, although I'm interested in what a British person would think about this because it's an impression of a real person. Right. Yeah. I can't bring myself to watch that movie because I like Meryl Streep and I, and I don't approve of her choice to do that. Right. Mark, correct me. Didn't she win the Oscar for that film? I think she did. I actually do not know. The point here is that that is a film where she blows everyone off the screen. And also it's not a very good film, but she blows, she's good in it, but she is doing so many

23:39affectations. She is blowing everybody off the screen. And that's the reason why, I hesitate to kind of go into this love fest because you guys are acting like Daniel Day Lewis. He blows people off the screen. Meryl Streep would never. Like, she does. You know, Iron Lady is one of them where she just blows people off the screen. And she did win the Oscar for Best Actor. Yeah, I thought so. Okay. And that was one where I was very upset. I mean, so I just want to say that, yes, I like her, but let's back off on acting like she's never done the things that you guys are saying

24:09that she's done. Because she has done some of these things. I mean, I'm not trying to make the argument that Meryl Streep is better than anyone in particular, but I think it is odd to criticize her for having the range to do the similar kind of acting that Daniel Day Lewis does. And also the more ensemble piece, because that's clearly what was going on. Maybe I haven't seen that movie. I'm just saying I disagree with the argument you guys are making. I'm not criticizing her. I'm just saying I disagree with the argument you guys are making. Like she never blows me off the screen. I mean, she does. Like I was just disagreeing with you guys.

24:39Since I put the time into watching the Iron Lady, the reason she's wonderful in that I think is the same reason she's wonderful in a bunch of other things is that it's pretty subtle. It is subtle. That she is not, oh, what a relation I have had with my daughter. No, she's just like a doddering old lady for a lot of it. Even when she is flashing back to her prime, she's the Iron Lady. So if anything, it's because she shows like a little bit of warmth when she is with her husband. And you see that contrast to her ranting and raving about the poor people

25:13not being willing to work and they should have to pay for the privilege of living in Britain. And we will not cave to those Nazis in Argentina over the Falklands and things like that compared to sort of her domestic persona. And so, you know, it's a very well-written movie. And it's a very interesting take on, let's start with her way older than you knew when she was not in the public eye anymore. And I don't know the story of like, if it's based on a book or why that was chosen, but it lets her just be a person. That is what

25:47we want. You know, you get some people like in Kramer versus Kramer, which I did not rewatch the whole thing of, but I watched clips of this morning. And I forgot how amazing she was in that because she's a person in an extreme situation where she's having to, she's on the stand defending her choices. And I was hearing a little about how she was engaged with the screenwriters and the makers of the movie, how they were not sympathetic enough because as a child watching this film, I really, you know, of course you sympathize with Dustin

26:17Hoffman and he's been left alone with this kid and it's just like Mr. Mom. And so she's just this villain, but she really wanted to play it and sort of forced, I think, the makers of the film to make it like that. This is a person that at least adults can understand her motivation and that this is like a real way that women are in society as they try to be full human beings. So I really appreciated both her when there has to be a tear running down her face and, and when she's just being a person, any other career highlights or, or

26:50lowlights we want to focus on since you, Al, do you want to talk a little more about? So the Sophie's Choice, it's not only just her in the three-hander, it's her in the flashbacks in the concentration camp. The point you made about her subtlety, I think is really, is really important because she is clearly capable of these big larger than life performances like in Devil Wears Prada, but it's not really her stock in trade and it's not where she puts in her most impressive performances. I don't really know why there's so few people who can do, or who are given the

27:24chance to do that because it seems like what she's doing is just like good old-fashioned like stage to screen acting. Like it's the kind of acting that you see, you know, all the, the hoary old RSC thespians, Ian McKellen's and Patrick Stewart's and whoever else, like people who know how to, as you say, work with a company. That's a very British list. Very British list. It is, but I think she, but Helen Mirren is, is, is a good kind of comparison for her as well. Yeah, she is. Do the Brits start with a plus two on their character sheet for acting? Is that, is that because the, because the accent is the Shakespearean history?

27:56They all start on second base. Yeah, I think so. I mean, you know, the Royal Shakespeare, the fact that the Royal Shakespeare Company exists just helps the output, I think. But I'm not sure why there's so few other women actors who are kind of in her position. Who are some of her other kind of contemporaries? Judi Dench, I guess. Judi Helen Mirren. Yeah. But they don't work like she does and they don't do the range of projects that she does. I really don't know what the answer to that is. I don't know. I know that there are probably a lot coming in her wake. So Viola Davis is a person who I think is getting there. She's

28:29not really contemporary of Streep. She's very much inspired by Streep. So there are people who are coming in the wake of her, but I just think that she is just a unique generational talent. And there are people across the pond that are her contemporaries and I think could go toe to toe with her. I would put Helen Mirren up against her very easily. I think that she's really good. Judi Dench as well. But I don't think that there are many contemporary American... Well, maybe I'm over... So Faye Dunaway... It's just that Faye Dunaway is not

29:01as talented as her and hasn't worked as much as her. Can I throw something out? Just that the complicating factor that I'm sure on any other podcast would have already been brought up is that there's maybe a greater range of impressive male actors that we know about because they have to be so super pretty. So Sissy Spacek is one that like, okay, she was maybe super pretty at a very early age, but then it's just, she's an amazing actress. She's just an amazing actor. And I don't, you know, of course she hasn't

29:32worked as much and done as many things, but you know, I'd probably put her in the same category. I would put Sally Field up there as well. I think that you might be onto something and I think that is a good point and maybe it's a blind spot for most of us, not for Sarah, but just the fact that probably Meryl Streep was just given more opportunities and maybe there are Black actresses who could have been in her wheelhouse but were not given probably the opportunities. But more than likely, there's just a lot of roles that just were not available for women and Meryl Streep was able to get those and it was probably limiting.

30:08I'm just looking at a list on the internet. Like Kathy Bates is one. She's amazing. And she had to specifically like, well, I was not classically pretty. And so she's like one of the few women who managed to through character actors get to be on this, you know, I now I get to do whatever project I want and I get lauded for my acting, but everybody else, including Meryl Streep, although, you know, seeing some interviews from when talking about her early days, she was deemed like not pretty enough to be in King Kong. Like the, the, she was up

30:41for that stupid King Kong movie. Uh, and so she didn't really get into, she was in theater and things until she was like 26. And then it was sort of a, Oh, I don't know, maybe, uh, I guess let's take a risk and let this, whereas to me in her early films, she is just like strikingly beautiful. Like just, I completely agree. So even that, you know, the standard is so high that you just don't have the range of character actors on the female side that didn't have to go through that.

31:13One thing that I've noticed in watching her performances so closely is that Meryl Streep, she's such a good listener as an actress or actor. And I wonder if it's, that's what makes her so good at comedy. And I see that in comedic actresses a lot. So like Maya Rudolph, she is a listener and that's what makes her, her reactions so real and seem like she's in discovery. And that's how I feel with Meryl Streep is every single role that she's given, no matter what the project is,

31:48it seems like she is discovering something new as she performs that blows my mind that she can do that. And I think that might be why she's so good in comedy. And I see comedic and also improvisers specifically do this because you have to listen in order for them to make the scene work. And I wonder if that's what makes her so good is that she is not just present, but she's present because she's listening and reacting to the characters around her.

32:22That's a good point. I think we don't know enough about acting to be able to have this conversation, but you at least had acting training. I know a little bit. I know a little bit about acting, but yeah. And I know a little bit about improvisation, going back to improv actors, you know, Melissa McCarthy isn't a good example because she is very much like, look at me, look at me, look at me. But a lot of those, oh, Catherine O'Hara, who we just lost. I think she is one of those actors. She really, you can see everything on her

32:53face that she's reacting to. And I think that's the same thing. Meryl Streep just, she just has had more opportunities to be able to show that skill off. And that is something that is kind of underrated. She isn't so, look at me, look at me, look at me. She is just present and reacting to whatever is in front of her, whether it's, she's just, what's my favorite? My favorite movie is of, not of hers necessarily, but one of my favorite movies forever is Defending Your Life. And she and

33:23Albert Brooks, just, I think she made him so good in that movie. I think his range is not amazing. He's really funny and I absolutely adore him, but he doesn't have the range that she does. And she just lifted him up in that movie and they had the best chemistry and it was because of her. Yeah. I wish I had time to review more of these things because now I'm trying to think about her as a comic actor. So I see she was in a movie with Steve Martin, which is the, uh, the Alec Bolt with the, it's complicated, which I saw at some point. It's complicated. I love that movie.

33:58Yeah, it's good. She's also quite good in Only Murders in a Building and you see her comedic chops in there. I mean, so she has legitimate, and as I said, my favorite comedic performance of her is Death Becomes Her because that is such an understated, but also a very funny performance. And so she's a wonderful comedic actress. Like she's, she has an amazing amount of range. Like she can be serious and heartbreaking, but she can also be funny. She can sing. She's very talented, very, uh, multifaceted actress. Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile. I don't know

34:30if you knew this, but anyone can get the same premium wireless for $15 a month plan that I've been enjoying. It's not just for celebrities. So do like I did and have one of your assistant's assistants switch you to Mint Mobile today. I'm told it's super easy to do at mintmobile.com slash switch. Upfront payment of $45 for three-month plan equivalent to $15 per month required. Intro rate first three months only, then full price plan options available. Taxes and fees extra. Default terms at mintmobile.com. When you send a business gift, you're doing more than saying thank

35:02you. You're recognizing a moment, expressing appreciation, and making a statement about your brand. With 4imprint, that message lands with certainty. With thousands of customizable products from premium apparel and branded drinkware to smart tech, bags, and thoughtfully chosen office items, 4imprint helps your brand show up with the kind of care people remember. You can tailor every detail, your logo, your message, your look. And with thousands without a setup fee, it's easy to create meaningful moments without added cost. You'll also get expert support,

35:35dependable service, and their 360-degree guarantee. So you can be 4imprint certain your gifts arrive exactly as intended, on time and on brand. Because in a season built around appreciation, the right gift should say it all with confidence, care, and attention to detail. Explore gifting with certainty at 4imprint.com. One of my favorite performances of hers is from Postcards from the Edge, the Carrie Fisher memoir. And her and Shirley MacLaine, like you talk about going against a

36:10powerhouse. That movie was so funny because it was coming from Carrie Fisher's brain. But it wasn't necessarily a comedic performance on either of their parts. And I think she also recognizes that. She goes in character first. And if the character happens to be kind of from the outside in, people would look at, oh, that's kind of a funny person. But she's not trying to hit all of those notes necessarily. Or it doesn't seem that from the outside, from the audience's perspective.

36:41One of the ones I reviewed for this was A Cry in the Dark. Oh, yeah. Maybe I had seen it before because as I got into it, I think I watched this on cable at some point. But there's so many films. I think because she is somebody who disappears into roles, you don't necessarily, unless you're looking for Meryl Streep, like, you know, as a young person who is not doing this, there are a bunch of films like, oh, I didn't realize she was like, I didn't even remember that she was the person in Kramer versus Kramer. You know, at this point, I remembered Dustin Hoffman, because Dustin Hoffman is always Dustin Hoffman. But A Cry in the Dark, she plays, she's doing the whole thing in an Australian accent.

37:15Isn't it a New Zealand accent? I thought it was Australia. No, it's well, the action takes place in the middle of Australia. Yeah. So this is where the meme that I think is because it was on Seinfeld, a dingo ate my baby. A dingo took my baby. So that's all I knew about it. And watching the beginning where a dingo does take her baby is fucking terrifying, is horrifying, because I knew this was coming and I had to even stop it. This was so traumatic for me. But then the rest of the

37:45film, it's based on a true story where this woman was then accused of murdering her baby because people just, you know, I think it was the Australians, they like their dingoes. It's like a national animal. So they wouldn't admit that a dingo could be so horrible. And so this must have been some horrible conspiracy that their Seventh-day Adventists, they must have sacrificed their child. So she's defending herself in court and, spoiler alert, but, you know, spends time in prison before finally being exonerated. And she plays the whole thing surprisingly subtle. You would think, like, my baby is dead would be, oh, my baby is... And

38:23they're definitely, you know, she cries and things in it. But a lot of it is just, like, I'm so pissed off that people are still accusing me of this bullshit that is so... And that I'm stuck in an unfair situation. And again, she plays well with Sam Neill, even though he's good, but, like, he's not her quality actor. She does not overplay. And she is so unrecognizable in that wig and that accent that, like, you just wouldn't even know that was her. It's a recommend, I think, for your cultural completeness. But it's not a Sophie's Choice. I watched this because I looked

38:54up, like, what are her most important acting roles? And this was listed as one of them. And I, again, the subtlety, I think of Ian McKellen, even if he is doing it subtly, I think of him as drama queen. Yeah. Thou, you will not pass! This is why. That is so offensive to Ian McKellen. Sorry to Ian McKellen. What are you doing? What are you doing? The role called for that. What are you doing? Can we bring it back to Prada? Yes.

Miranda Priestly Character Analysis

39:24Just what makes Miranda Priestly one of her major roles? Why would that role, do you think, land on the list of greatest Meryl Streep performances? I mean, yeah, we just talked about Ian McKellen. It's her Gandalf, isn't it? It's like the seventh or eighth most impressive thing that she's done per box office return. But it's the one that's going to stand the test of time. Hopefully it won't be the first line of her obituary, but it's going to be the second or third. It will probably be her first line, honestly. It is just such a resounding success

39:58financially, both part one and part two. Part two is even a bigger success than part one. Honestly, I think that the reason why that role is so astounding is because of the way that she plays it. She is soft-spoken and she does underplay it, but in her soft-spokenness and in her underplaying it, she is a powerhouse in how she performs. That's the reason why it is simultaneously her being soft-spoken, but also being the loudest voice in the room simultaneously. The charisma that she has,

40:29but also the depth, because it could just be a surface level, I'm powerful kind of thing, but you also see the humanity of her. It's all of those things coming together that is really what makes that performance in the first movie, not going to the second movie, in the first movie so good, right? That is really where, and even the second movie, like she adds gravity to the film, where the film oftentimes wants to go into nostalgia and kind of go a little bit off the rails a little bit. She kind of centers the film, and I think that she's a large part of why that

40:59film works even as remotely well as it does, but that's what it is. It's the fact that she's able to bring all these things together while at the same time remaining that soft-spoken person that she has always been. Honestly, you know, she's kind of taken over. Now, she hasn't done it in a while, but there was a time where Jack Nicholson was like the mayor of Hollywood in every single Oscar ceremony. He would be front and center, and he would be the one kind of that the camera would kind of focus on. Yeah, he'd be wearing his Ray-Bans. Yeah. She hasn't done this in a while, but she is kind of that person as well. When she's there, she is the focal point. Like,

41:32she is kind of the mayoress, the mayor, the mayor. She's the mayor of Hollywood now, even though, even in her absence, she's, I mean, I've seen Oscars where both her and Al Pacino and Denzel were all in the same room, and the camera loves her. Like, she's kind of taking that rollover. Yeah, I was just looking on YouTube, you know, what clips have been picked out of her, and there's one at, I think the Oscars or some award show, defending herself against Trump tweeting that she was so overrated. And she is just so perfect in her diction, just when she's talking.

42:07Like, this is the acting training that I will never say, um, you know, I know somebody like Barack Obama can train themselves out of it, but he does that by having long silences. Yeah, he does. She doesn't even do that. So she's clearly so quick of mind and tongue, and probably most of our greatest performers are like that. Agreed. Yeah. Did anyone read the Devil Wears Prada book? No, I never did. I think the movie is probably better than the book, but I really liked the book a lot. It came out in

42:372003. It was written by a former staffer at Vogue, and clearly the Miranda Priestly character is based on Anna Wintour, and she is the devil. She is a bad person in this, the person that you are not rooting for. Yet in the movie, I found the Miranda Priestly character, and it might be because of the way that it's written, but I think it's really based on Meryl Streep's performance. I am rooting for her. And I think Andy Sachs is kind of a brat. I'm like, dude, you know, come on. So there are

43:12moments in that movie where because of that performance, I know the story because I've read the book and we're supposed to root for Andy Sachs and we're supposed to hope that Miranda Priestly goes and jumps off the Brooklyn Bridge. And I don't. I actually don't. I love that character. I think she gives that character so much nuance that it's hard not to root for her sometimes. And every single line, every single great line is given to that character in the first movie. Not in the second movie. They gave it to, what's his name? But in the first movie, they gave her all the great lines,

43:47which is amazing. In the book, do they not have the emotional journey of them coming to understand one another? In the movie, the reason they can get away with like Meryl Streep, like having this amazing devilish villainous presence is that we learn to appreciate her a little bit as a person and like Anne Hathaway's character has to grow into a relationship with her. That's why she comes across as like bratty at the start, right? She's got a lot to learn. Is that not the case in the book? Is it just a diatribe about how shitty it is working as an intern?

44:18Her goals are still to go and work at like a magazine like The New Yorker. And she does think that working at Vogue is beneath her, but it's a stepping stone. So that is the same. From what I remember about the book, it's been a long time since I read it. But at the end, there isn't sort of a come together kind of understanding. Even if they part by the end, there isn't that understanding. It is still that Miranda Priestly is wrong and a sociopath and a bitch and Andy Sachs is on the

44:53right side. And in the movie, I think that that's, at least from my viewing, that that's muddy because we're talking about, again, women and work. And there's nothing wrong with having a character like Miranda Priestly, even though she says a lot of mean things, there's nobody better at her job than her. And she just happens to be a woman. And if we were to replace her with a man, a lot of those same behaviors would be either forgiven or ignored or not even noticed.

45:26I think this story of how she makes this character ultimately sympathetic is probably the same as I was saying with Kramer versus Kramer, whether it was, you know, I'm sure it was not a fight with the filmmakers in a way it was in 1979 or whatever that other film came out, but that everybody's a hero of their own story. And so like a good actor can actually make you feel that and not just be a villain and not just. Exactly. So Steve Buscemi is one of the guys who, you know, he didn't have to be pretty and he is able to inhabit horrible character. I don't know why I'm

46:00bringing this up in particular. I was just, I was just looking at the cast of Con Air for what? There was a, there was a point to it. Yes. That, you know, that she acted with Nicolas Cage and things like that. The point is don't look at the cast of Con Air. That's the point that you just made. But she can play any status. You know, I think that's kind of like, you're just talking about Viola Davis. She can play any status. That's, that's part of what makes her so good.

46:33And so when you can do that, that's your range. And so you don't have to be the, in fact, it's a barrier to be the prettiest person in the room. You want to be able to grow into whatever role it is, but being able to play any status is a superpower as an actor. I agree. One of my absolute favorite, and it just hasn't been mentioned yet, is Doubt. Her in Doubt is a powerhouse of a performance. And that is a example, Sarah, of what you're saying,

47:05because in that film, she is able to embody so many different things because she's not the most powerful person in that film. But it is the fact that she is not, that she's able to bring so much. And that is a performance where she could have blown so many people off the screen, right? Yeah. But she doesn't. Speaking of Viola Davis too. Oh my gosh, that Viola Davis performance. It's just like one scene. Oh my God. It's just that one walking scene of Viola Davis is so good. That is the performance that really made me pay attention to her because she is so good. But

47:39nevertheless, Doubt is just another film that I would absolutely recommend people to watch because I don't know if it's on a list of the greatest Meryl Streep's performances, but if it isn't, it should be. Because that adaptation, everybody goes to Sophie Choice. Everybody goes to that. That's the classic one. But Doubt is up there. I put Doubt up there against any of these other performances because it is so good and so understated, but also so powerful. It's such a good performance and a good movie. Everybody's good in that movie. Philip Seymour Hoffman's good in that movie. Everybody's good in that movie.

48:10Everybody's good in that movie. Well, I wish I had put the time into watching that. It was on my list. Rather than The Laundromat, which was actually the film that when Erica had suggested we do Meryl Streep, that was what had just come out. And it's not a particularly good film. No, it's not good. She's fine, but it's not a very good movie. She's fine. She's introduced as a character whose husband dies on a boat in the first five minutes. And so she's sort of fighting with insurance companies. And then this is not good in a film for me to not spoil this, but she's also plays a different character in the film,

48:41completely unrecognizable. And it's not until the very last scene of the film that that character gets up and rips off her costume. I was unclear, like, wait a second, was she in trying to fool the insurance, you know, trying to fight the insurance company? Did she go undercover? No. She's just playing a different character and they're breaking the fourth wall for the umpteenth time. They're breaking the fourth wall throughout the whole film. It's a fun movie to watch to kind of laugh at it, but it's not a fun movie to watch as in it's good. Yeah. Yes. Gary Oldman.

49:11I think I need to watch that. Wasted. Antonio Brandears. That movie is full of a lot of really good actors and it is not a good film. Like, that is a talent. It is a talent to make a film with that many good actors and for it not to be good. That filmmaker is remarkably talented. Well, yeah. It's Steven Soderbergh. It's the director. Yeah. Remarkably talented. Remarkably talented. I also watched Let Them All Talk. I did watch that whole thing. Oh, yeah. Which was okay. It was an ensemble piece. She sort of plays Miranda Priestly Light,

49:43like sort of a similar disdainful character, also with some depth, but doesn't really get enough time spent with the other characters. Yeah. You should have watched it out. You should have watched it out, man. I was like, this film is a little boring. And then it ended and it said directed by Steven Soderbergh. I was like, well, I guess it was good because I knew that it was naturalistically directed. He's got some duds. I mean, he's a talented filmmaker. He's really good, but he's got some major duds. He is another person who works way too much and he needs to kind of pull back and

50:15really pick his things. He's very talented, but he's spread too thin and his filmography is mad uneven. It's always interesting, but not always good. Did anyone watch Florence Foster Jenkins? I've seen it recently, but not for this. Okay. That's a really strong showing of the kind of upper mid range of Meryl Streep movies. But the movie doesn't call for a top tier Meryl Streep performance. She really delivers exactly what, like the pantomime character that that movie needs.

50:46Yeah. And she occupies the scenes just in exactly the right way to let Hugh Grant do what he does best on the evil end. We love seeing Hugh Grant play the heel. It's his specialty. It's a great combination that she contributes to in a very special way. I only just rewatched the clip. I'd seen the whole movie some years ago and I enjoyed it, but the clip of her doing her command performance where she has to do a really difficult opera thing and do it just badly enough so that it's really funny and people in the audience are cracking up

51:19about it. I just think it was a masterful feat to be able to do it at the level that that character would be doing it. This is an opera singer that was famous for being bad, that she was like Tiny Tim kind of in the olden days. But she gets applause and they humor her and they love her because it's just her out of tune and singing. It's so great. We have plenty of internet examples of that nowadays.

51:49I think we're reaching the end of our time. Any last recommendation of a film that we have not mentioned yet? The River Wild is a great movie. I didn't watch it for this one, but it's like one of her older ones that is not remembered as fondly as I think it should be. Hmm. Man, like her filmography is so deep. The Post is another one that was relatively recent. That's an overall, that's an ensemble piece, but she was really good in that. Everybody was good in that. For my money, Into the Wood is not a great movie, but she's good in it. Exactly. You know, it's just one of those things where she oftentimes just kind of elevates everything.

52:21Silkwood is good. Julie and Julia, I think, is another one that we haven't mentioned that I would say. She's really good in that. We get the big things, you know, Sophie's Choice. I mean, I just hesitate with Sophie's Choice because everybody goes to that. Everyone says that's the one, but there are so many different ones. What about The Hours? The Hours was good. I liked the book more than the movie. I love the book. But The Hours was really good. She was great. And that's also another... That's an ensemble. That's a three-hander. Yeah, because it has Nicole Kidman. But yeah, that's another good movie. So,

52:53I mean, we've given people a lot of good things to watch. Another one, and it could just be me being weird. But, you know, in addition to Into the Woods, there's this movie called Ricky and the Flash that I really enjoy as well. Oh, yeah. You know, so, yeah, all those are really good films to kind of seek out and check out. Also, do watch Devil Wears Prada 2. It is perfectly fine. It is enjoyable. Just don't expect the Devil Wears Prada Part 1 level quality, but it's good. Yeah, I thought it was fun. I had a good time.

53:24The women in my screening were having a great time. I'll say that. They dressed up and everything. They had a great time. Aw. All right. I will save a few more comments for the After Talk. That's patreon.com slash prettymuchpop. Thanks for hanging out with us. Bye, guys. Bye-bye. Bye. Thank you. Pretty Much Pop is part of the Partially Examined Life Podcast Network. Get more Pretty Much Pop at prettymuchpop.com. Get bonus content for every episode at patreon.com slash prettymuchpop. Free is great, but only if it's useful.

53:56Free credit scores from some apps can differ by as much as 100 points from your actual FICO score that 90% of top lenders use when you apply for a credit card, personal loan, car loan, or mortgage. That can mean a higher interest rate, a bigger monthly payment, or worse. Denied. MyFICO gives you your actual FICO score, the score lenders use straight from the company that created it. For the moments that matter, get the score that matters, your FICO score. Visit myfICO.com and get started for free today.