PEL Presents NEM#261: Joan as Policewoman's Living Growth

Introducing Joan Wasser

0:00You're listening to Nakedly Examined Music, a podcast about songs and songwriters. My name is Mark Linsenmeyer. My guest for episode 261 is Joan Wasser, whose solo work has been released as Joan as Policewoman. She started as a violinist in a band called The Dam Builders back in the 90s, and toward the end of that was also supporting Shudder to Think's Nathan Larson in his band Mind Science of Mind.

0:31And during this time, she met and got engaged to famed singer Jeff Buckley, who passed away in May of 1997. Out of a Jeff Buckley tribute grew Joan's first original band, Black Beetle, which did not release any albums. And she also played in the band Antony and the Johnsons. Her first solo release was a 2005 EP, and since then, she's released seven solo albums of original material, two albums of covers, two collaboration albums, and a live album.

1:02So 13 releases in total. And I should mention that during this time, she's continued playing as a side person, whether on keyboards or violin or whatnot, for a number of artists, including Iggy Pop, Rufus and Martha Wainwright, John Cale, Sheryl Crow, Elton John, Gorillaz, and Lou Reed. You're right now hearing perhaps her biggest hit, called The Magic, from her 2011 album, The Deep Field. Her latest record, Real Life Evolution, is a track-for-track remake of her first solo album, 2006's Real Life.

1:34So we'll be discussing two of the songs that are on those projects. For Eternal Flame, we'll focus on the new version. For I Defy, we'll focus on the old, real-life version. Then we'll discuss Full-Time Heist, from her last album of all new material, 2024's Lemons, Limes, and Orchids. We'll conclude by listening to Valid Jagger, from her 2018 album, Damned Devotion. For more information, please see joanaspolicewoman.com. For more about this podcast, see nakedlyexaminedmusic.com or support the effort at patreon.com slash nakedlyexaminedmusic to get your episode completely ad-free.

Early songwriting in Black Beetle

2:14So I will play a little bit of The Magic from The Deep Field. 2011 is your sort of most streamed tune. I was also looking at My Girl from the debut EP 2005, but normally I try to find something sort of foundational, but your foundational work is all as violin player in other people's bands. So were you messing around with songwriting earlier in your career, or were you really, you know? Yeah, yeah, sure. I was a contributing songwriter to a lot of bands, yeah. But songs that I wrote on my own, My Girl was the top.

2:46No, that's not true. I had a whole band and, like, years of making music and learning how to songwrite in this band called Black Beetle. And we did lots of recording and released nothing. So that is where I learned to write songs. And then I made my own band sort of releasing stuff. So there you go.

Reimagining the debut album Real Life

3:06So we're focusing in some way for a good deal of what we're doing today on your first full album, Real Life, which was 2006, because you're celebrating, you know, the 20th anniversary with all new re-recordings of that. So we're going to hear one of the new ones, and then we'll hear one of the old ones. We're going to talk about Eternal Flame and hear the new version of that. Do you want to orient us in terms of why you're doing this full, you know, radical reconstruction of this old project at this time? A huge part of my being a musician is playing live, and I have been playing these songs for 20 years.

3:43And depending on whether I'm doing a solo show or who I'm playing with, if it's a duo, a trio, a quartet, a quintet, each musician brings something new to the song. It morphs over time. I get tired of playing it in a certain way. I don't play guitar like I did when I first was playing guitar, and I want to change their... So otherwise, the arrangements change radically over time. Just the way anything living grows, you know, I feel like songs, when you release them, they take on their own life.

4:21And so this is documenting songs' lives.

Reconstructing Eternal Flame

4:25Do you want to say a few words about Eternal Flame specifically, whether it's conception or how you reconstructed it before we hear it in full, the new version? The original arrangement is quite spacious and quite dense. And this version was developed while on the road with my trio, Jeremy Gustin on drums and Will Grafe on guitar. And I am just singing. So it's just two instruments and three voices, and that's it.

5:00Should we remember when it came and write good. And if you want to try to be fez. Do you remember when we revealed it on the road? Do you remember anything and wearing a special with posted? What also do you remember? ¿That one probably is doing as hierrope? So I can also be website to authorize it for a little bit, and to give up the title and do this for a little bit of space in front of theMaster. Yes, I want to have it Yes, yes, I want to have you now

5:35But I can't be the lighter I want to go there Yes, yes, I want to show you how But I can't be the lighter Just in case you never knew I can't be the lighter For your eternal flame

6:09Oh, oceans, rivers, lakes That we could swim as two But I already own my own body of water You follow me and yes, yes, I follow you, it's true But I'm already certain I've got good direction

6:39Just in case you never knew I won't be becoming I am the beginning And I'm already done These yes days, they've come and gone Not always gonna make the same mistakes It's too simple, I saw the truth

7:25My truth is the terror of the one Who feels their lace can be stained But I cannot stain your white lace, baby Even you cannot stain your white lace, baby No, I'll never go there No, no, I'll never take that route Cause I won't be the fighter Don't ever push me, no, no

8:00Don't ever make me shoot Cause I won't be the fighter Just in case you never knew I won't be the fighter For your eternal flame Just in case you never knew Just in case you never knew I won't be becoming

8:35I am the beginning And I'm already done Just in case you never knew Just in case you never knew I won't be the fighter I can be the lighter For your eternal flame Eternal flame Eternal flame

9:16So it's really just Will doing the one I saw on the live version So he's playing nylon string But it sounds like there's at least some overdub On the other speaker of a keyboard Or a second guitar or something Ah, are there keys on that song? The first time hearing it I thought that the main riff was a harp Or a keyboard harp sound or something But clearly watching him do it No, that's well And there's no bass at all This is just him playing with his thumb, okay Correct

9:46Yeah, yeah, no, it's just He's an extraordinary musician So there's a live version up that I will link folks to from 2020, I believe That retains quite a bit more of the original I can't be lighter, I can't be lighter Are you repeating those phrases like you were in the old version? I think you were still repeating them as of, you know, five years ago So this is just with this How long has this trio been going? Yeah, we started touring for the Lemons, Limes and Orchids album

10:17So we started touring in October of 2024 Okay Yeah, and then we developed this arrangement of Eternal Flame over that tour We developed it in rehearsals, but then it just got tighter So is this represent sort of a loosening of control as compared to the original version That this is just what Will and Jeremy came up with working ongoing Or how much are you coaching them? That drum beat actually was developed by Parker Kindred The drummer I played with previously

10:49And Will, that guitar part, he gleaned from the chords from the song So it all meshed together We make it together I play with the musicians I do because they're spectacular I try to give them a wide berth because, you know, it's their music too When we're playing it together Let me play just a little bit of the old version Just the intro to see what is the substitute for that main riff there

11:31So we always have a sense of something floating In whatever the versions of these are But, you know, you've got a big soupy bed of stuff in the old version Was that... I assume that's you That's me playing guitar, yeah There's always a question of sort of what counts as the song And clearly, well, the melody and the words and, you know And the chords Yeah, okay So, well, and legally, right? That's the only thing you can copyright, I think, right? Actually, I don't think you can't even copyright chord progressions, right? The jazz guys would come up with new songs by just playing

12:04Improvising over the same chord Yeah, they'd reharmonize Yes, that you couldn't... So, yeah, it's only melody and lyrics that you can even copyright But, yeah, so that particular part that you're doing You know, obviously it was part of that recording How soon did that get abandoned? Did, you know, as soon as you played with your first band on that or...?

The evolution of a song live

12:22I used that for a while You know, like I would also play this song solo I would also break that down It would be as chuggy Yeah, there's been so many iterations of the song It is like jazz where you can just sort of do it in a million ways And I've never understood trying to perfectly recreate a recorded version of a song Because you can listen to that in your car So, you know, it's like the live setting is such an incredible opportunity to find something new in the song

13:00And I think I've just always been very interested in that And do you get an audience reaction when you finally start singing and they figure out Oh, that's that song! I know... I wasn't sure They do... I do... Yeah, no, it's true Sometimes it's not clear Yes, I've heard Bob Dylan live stuff, you know, sort of notoriously for that Yes Maybe it's halfway through the song before you realize Oh, oh, wait a second Okay Yeah There's the one lyric I recognize Yeah This is kind of a strange structure to this

13:32I mean, it's just, again, it's just sort of skipping and flowing And, you know, that you come in with the chorus vocals at some point And I guess we have a... Do we have an identifiable bridge? Yes, we have an identifiable bridge Yeah, any thought about, did this song get longer and shorter and gain instrumental solo passages and things over time if you're being so free about it? This song retained the form Yeah, I feel like it was composed in a way that really serves the song Sure, you could add post-choruses and stuff, but not on this song

14:05It's also, the lyric is, a flowing lyric goes right into each section So, yeah, there hasn't been much movement in the form of the song I mean, this actually sounds to me maybe the reason that the chug-chug-chugs are not necessary Like something you might have just written acapella walking around, you know, singing into your phone or something Do you recall how this one came together? I wrote the chords first Okay Yeah, I wrote the chords first and then the melody grew from there

14:36There's a certain freedom and detachment from the ground in the melody So I'm just trying to determine if this was Okay, so I recorded the chords and then I just let them play over and over again until, you know, you improvise something Because that's kind of what it sounds like, you know, the way that R.E.M. or Talking Heads in its naked period Where they had an instrumental bed and then the vocalist would just take it somewhere else and do something As opposed to it being, you know, your typical hum and strum The melody comes out basically at the same time as the chords Or how were you thinking at this point?

15:07I think I probably played the chords a million times and riffed over it until something happened I want to insert from the original version just the eternal flame part

15:38Just the fact that you have this pretty massive chorus with the very low voices coming in And clearly that's thinned out with the live performances and with the more recent thing I mean the old version almost makes me laugh because it's just so overwhelming When I stack harmonies like this, a guy I was in a band with would call them Muppet harmonies

16:09That I'm going to put the very lowest I can sing and the very highest I can sing Right, that's Joseph Arthur who I had singing on that song, The Very Low Voice When I wrote this song, I wanted to write a gospel song Which, you know, typically has a lot of backing vocals Sure And so like when I'm singing the chorus and the backup vocals are going You know, it's like, it's a gospel song Let's just play a little of the bridge here

16:40You know, cause this is, again, it has that flowing quality You could just kind of keep it going, but we're gonna keep the same texture But change out the chords to introduce the bridge, introduce some different vocal gestures Any thoughts about your construction of that?

17:11Oh, well I really like a bridge, you know Okay So, I think if you can write a bridge that works, you sort of win Some people don't even put bridges in their songs anymore But I love a bridge so much And now I'm in this other kind of reflection You know, it's like another pair of glasses on the situation is the bridge As opposed to talking outwardly, it's like talking inwardly

17:42And then by the end of the bridge I've sort of like gotten to a point where I sort of came to a conclusion at the end of the bridge And then I get to reunite with the third verse With more confidence in a way Well, I mean, the fact that everything's, you know That you're starting the third verse a cappella, at least in this version, right? Obviously In this version, yeah You know, if you're gonna only have two instrumentalists playing Like, those are the gestures that are available to you And it's really effective

18:12What is, if you don't mind decoding your lyrics a little bit What is this staining of the white lace? It's sort of like saying like, you're always pure You know, it's like this whole thing of like, everyone stays pure In here is like always pure And people are always commenting about, you know Being involved with this person has stained my life And it's like, nah Truth is the terror of the one who fears their lace can be stained Even just, without the last part

18:43I love the Truth is the terror of the one I don't know what that means in isolation But it's a Truth is the terror of the one Keep going Yes It's not just that

Collaborating on I Defy with Anoni

18:54Yeah Let's get the second song out there I Defy So, you've got a new version We'll hear a little bit of the new version But I wanted to focus on the old version Which provided a nice connection Since it's a duet with Anoni Formerly Antony of Antony and the Johnsons Which was her whole band playing behind you with this I know the eras overlapped No Okay, so it's just her doing that one song with you No, it's my band We wrote that song together Okay

19:24That is the only song on that first record that is co-written And we wrote that song together And yeah, I played in her band from 99 to 2004 And we became very good friends And we wrote that song together And then she recorded over with my musicians Well, let's hear it This is the original version from Real Life 2006 I Defy

19:58I Defy I Love Your Way How could it be different? Defy I Love Your Way I Love Your Way I Love Your Way How could it be different? How could it be different? Ooh, now I'm kissing the real you Now I'm kissing the real you Now I'm kissing the real you Will I get through my dark day?

20:30Will I get through my dark day? Can you hear me? Can you hear me? Can you hear me? Can you hear me? Can you hear me? Can you hear me? Can you hear me? Can you hear me? Can you hear me? Can you hear me? How could it be different? Oh I see the stars all round up fast They never seem to hurt at all

21:01The stars all round up fast They never seem to hurt at all Now I'm missing the real you Now I'm missing the real you When I got through my dark day Did you fear me?

21:31Did you fear for me? How could it be different? I don't wanna see my baby fall It's the dawn I feel becoming ever after This is my matter to you

22:05I defy all of your words How could it be different? If I love your words How could it be different? Well I've got to know you today

22:44And I adore you And I adore you And I adore you How could it be different? Now I love you Now I love you Now I love you How could it be different? Now I love you Now I love you Now I love you Yeah, so I noticed in the same live gig that I was watching on YouTube

23:25That whereas your version of Eternal Flame with that current band sounds pretty much exactly like the new version When you do I Defy, it sounds like the old version, right? More or less, that you're playing the prominent piano line that's not on this new version Any thought even before we get into the specifics of the old version of In fact, let me play the beginning of the new version Just so people can see how this is different

24:01Yeah, so completely different presentation, you know, that we're gonna Yeah, any thoughts about It seems like less Oh, let me reflect how the live band is doing it now Than a, you know, conscious effort to Absolutely, exactly right So, for many of the songs on the new album It is how I've been doing it with my trio For three of the songs I Defy, Feed the Light, and We Don't Own It I started from scratch with my aforementioned drummer that I used to tour with, Parker Kindred

24:33Who's on most of the recordings up through the Lemon Slimes and Orchids He's also on that Actually, he's on all the records besides real life So, we started from scratch and redid these songs together And that is a Casio drum machine And then he plays over that, you know, like in sort of Sly and the Family Stone style I redid all of the chords, the bass, the whole song is redone

25:06The vocals stay pretty similar And I got Crystal Warren to sing on it Who's one of my favorite singers and people So, she adds a very different flavor Alright, well, I will link folks so they can hear that in full We're now going to ignore that and just pretend we're in 2006 The previous band that you were, you said you sort of got your songwriting chops in Was almost a decade earlier than this, right? So, were any of these songs sort of

25:36Were these all pretty, you know, the couple years before the release of the album? Or were these stretched over that decade? All of the songs that are on real life were written between 2004 and 2005

Arranging horns and writing chords

25:49Yeah, so you got some fun with time signatures, right? At least you got the main riff, it's a six beat measure Or do you just think of it as No, I'm just sort of doing a 4-4 groove, but I just stop it sometimes And just, you know, rush over How do you think of these things? I mean, I know you're a trained classical musician Most people I talk to in this are like Oh, I don't know what I'm doing I just... But you know what you're doing You had to take all those classes I think of it as a big six I mean, the fact that it has a steady beat throughout I mean, it's not going to sound like an odd time signature to somebody

26:20It's just the fact that Right, then you lengthen it when you start singing I think it's just in four, right? Because you're adding in the little horn blasts and things to fill the extra space Love those horn arrangements Was that somebody coming in after the fact? Doug Wieselman did all of the horn arrangements on the first album And he is a prominent New York genius of music He's played with literally everyone He created absolutely gorgeous horn arrangements for that album

26:54Do you remember what the ensemble was here? Because it doesn't... Like, there could even be a clarinet in there as far as I know Like, it's a very sort of mellow Yeah, yeah, he plays clarinet Okay Yeah, he plays clarinet He plays sax I know I had him play bass clarinet Which is one of my favorite instruments on a lot of stuff But there was sax There was... There was some trumpet It depended on the song And thanks for noticing that Yeah, that's really special He's really special I'm not sure what this song is about exactly

27:25Like, it's so mantra-like in its repetition of certain lyrics And it's just shifting mood That I almost like It invites you not to figure out what it's about I feel like That's nice But, yeah Is it that the person you're singing to has a mercurial character that is with you But then not with you And with you, you know Is it that? That's at least the kind of theme that I was getting Really, it was like I was hanging out with Anoni And she was saying something self-effacing

27:56And I said, oh, I defy I love your way Okay, alright Then I just started playing this riff on her piano and singing that And then the song happened That's interesting Alright, so you can't It's answering a comment or a question Yeah That is not given in the song itself That is... Exactly Okay, well, you know Hey, I love your way But how could it... Like, how could it be different? Oh, okay Like, of course I love your way Alright, so it is a straightforward love song

28:26Or, you know, appreciation, positive I love who and how you are I really like the phrase, you know I see the stars around your face They never seem to hurt at all I'm not exactly sure what that means But you have a resilience that I admire Something like that Yeah, those are Anoni's lyrics So... Okay You gotta ask her Okay, so was this a sort of pass-off? Yeah, we wrote this song together Yeah, that verse was terrifying Is this the only thing you tried to write with her?

28:56Or was there a... This is what we wrote together Yeah, this was it We did a lot of playing together But this is what we wrote together And it was just entirely in the room Yeah, in her tiny SRO No fixing later Or do you recall? You're talking about the recording of this song? No, no, just in terms of the composition In terms of the lyrics that were written there Those are the lyrics Yeah, so how much later was the recording? Do you recall? We wrote this song very quickly And the lyrics stayed It wasn't all that much longer

29:27I was on tour with Rufus starting in early 2004 So I would record whenever I was home On breaks between that tour And whenever I had enough money Let me play from three minutes in So I just really thought You know, this sounds like Something that was come up with in the studio But sort of every time Right, so this is what? The third time of the chorus It just becomes more of a vortex of overdubbed vocals here Just so we have a lot of layers there of him

30:15Oh yeah Yeah, what's with the post-chorus Oh, ooh section I mean, it's ecstasy Okay Yeah Alright One more section A little earlier 241

30:42This is why I thought this was There was something ambivalent about this Because you had got your nice parts But then, oh, you're not with me And the very end of the song There's this sort of weird violin transition to the next song That sounds a little dark

30:59But I guess you're convincing me that No, this is just the energy of ecstasy This is not There's nothing dark about this at all Absolutely nothing dark So there's an amazing viola player named Avend Kang I had he and I record improv dual viola playing Separate from any of the songs And then I took slices of them And made segues between the songs that morphed into it

31:31So if you listen to the whole 2006 real life You will hear a lot of Avend and I Just improvising between songs And we sliced it into the sequence Alright, so I will keep that on the version that I have put up in this podcast But it's not technically part of the song Yes, whatever it is Sure It can be It's fine Well, I should ask you about You know, the fact that you

32:01For the new version Reverse the order of the song So it's a different story Was there something with those transitions in the original version That this is a concept album that has You know, it seems like the version I think the song after this one had some sort of harmonic similarities Like it definitely flowed But now you're turning that flow around Any thought of, you know, how you're constructing albums then and now? Yeah, I mean, I wanted to do a straight opposite But it didn't work completely

32:31So it's mostly reverse order But not totally reverse order I just thought that that would be a nice, you know, flip side Was there a sharp break just stylistically? It seems like even between your EP Which there was some more sort of rock stuff And I saw you referred to your solo style as old Al Green songs And in fact, you know It's almost like you're doing a duet with Al Green When I was listening to this originally Because it's such a powerful soul voice Yeah, any thought

33:01Sort of how you're juggling the rock influences versus the soul and jazz I mean When I really think about genre Whatever the song is It is Genre drives me crazy The idea of it It's just I understand why people need categories But they kind of drive me crazy Because it's like music is music Like you mentioned Like I grew up playing classical music But then like listening to punk rock and new wave It's all music You know Stravinsky is punk rock You know

33:31It's like it's all the same thing It's the emotion through music Well, I feel like you're providing a good segue to the third song Which was Good The single from your most recent Fully new original album 2024's Lemons, Limes, and Orchids Full Time Heist Which I'll admit You know On my first listen I was like, why is this a single? It's so slow Because you have a lot of jazz chords in it Which is starting to remind you know XTC is one of my foundational bands

34:01Great bands Who at a certain point Indulged in a little more You know Beatles always had lots of chords But it's still Putting in sevens and things Sounds normal to an everyday listener, right? It's Tin Pan Alley stuff But once you start Really stretching out And throwing in your Thelonious Monk influences or whatever Then Seems like it's a different kind of listener I don't know Maybe the fact that it's so mellow Nobody's gonna really object to that It's not like Spyro Gyra or somebody Like if I was playing that kind of jazz to somebody

34:31In high school They'd be like, what the hell is wrong with you? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah

Choosing singles for Lemons Limes and Orchids

34:36Yeah, any words about where you're at with this album And this song before we hear it in full? For the albums I let the people that know about radio choose the singles Hmm When I finish an album I think, oh, well probably these songs will be the ones But then that's actually not my thing I have no idea what's going on in music at any point So I let the radio people choose the singles They chose that I was also surprised But I do love this song

35:08And this really hits people And so they chose You know, it clearly hit them I can't explain Alright, well let's play it in full

35:22Go bathe the womb again You need more praise

35:29Was it for the capture? Or the setup?

35:37You feed your love With that extra applause Spread it out over your yard

35:51Your mirror whispers You got the secret garden But I could never get behind Hiding a bloom from no one You're so busy You're so busy laughing at the light Living in your Your vain glory Pulling that road tight Pulling off the full-time heist Pulling off the full-time heist

36:24Pulling off the full-time heist Pulling off the full-time heist Pulling off the full-time heist Pulling off the full-time heist Pulling off the full-time heist Pulling off the full-time heist Pulling off the full-time heist Pulling off the full-time heist Pulling off the full-time heist Pulling off the full-time heist Pulling off the full-time heist Pulling off the full-time heist Pulling off the full-time heist Pulling off the full-time heist Pulling off the full-time heist Pulling off the full-time heist Pulling off the full-time heist Pulling off the full-time heist Pulling off the full-time heist Pulling off the full-time heist Pulling off the full-time heist Pulling off the full-time heist You think if you insist enough, someone will believe you

36:57Or sadly you ain't Few think for themselves Then you can use that Few think for themselves Dream of your whole shape Dream of who I am And proceed to fall in love

37:28With your fantasy You don't even notice I'm not in it

37:40And it's not me Pulling out a real tight Pulling off a full time heist Pull the wool so tight Pulling my eyes Pulling off a full time heist

38:13Pulling out a few Pulling out a century

38:25I've been with nothing Pulling out a school Pulling out a century And you disappear And you disappeared And I can't stop if you died I don't believe you

38:55Pull the wool so tight Pulled on my eyes Pulling off a full time

Trusting ears over music theory

39:10You know, it starts, you know, it's like you're in a dark club And it's a nice piano ballad And then it has that opening up sort of Pat Metheny chord Ooh, which one's that? I wrote chromatic transition chord Let me just play a little bit That transition chord, you know, that's a

39:45Are you writing with your fingers? Are you writing with your mind? Do you even know for the piano stuff? I do not write with my mind, ever It's all move around until it sounds right Yeah, no, I did not study jazz I listen to jazz and love jazz But I am not speaking that language I mean, I play with a lot of jazz players That talk that language And I use my ears I'm never thinking

40:17I'm never thinking what's the right chord conceptually ever It's always what sounds right here Because I didn't study jazz I feel very free and grateful that I did not Also, you know, I studied theory in classical When I studied classically But the fact is, is like I grew up playing a single note instrument like a voice So I was not a piano player All the piano players understood theory inherently

40:48Because they're looking at their hands do the things I personally, I have never really understood theory I know what chords sound like And I know that this chord is, you know Sometimes I can like name what it is But that's never mattered to me I don't care what a chord is called I care what, how it relates to the chord before it And after it and the melody So when I was studying theory in school

41:19I could do it, but it was math for me It never connected to the sound This is this sound And this sounds hopeful but worried And this sound is, you know It's like, I always thought of it way more emotionally Than ever having to do with any letters or numbers To the extent that they're very familiar Then it doesn't feel like you're entering into Literally uncharted territory, right?

41:50That you're, that rising chord That, you know, what I call the Pat Metheny chord Sounds like sort of a revelation It's an opening up Yes, it does And if you're just like, oh, it's just, you know It's the, it's that thing that's in that other, you know So people who do a lot of classical Might find it more intimidating To make a jump to writing rocks Or writing their own classical pieces Because they're so familiar, right? Everything just, it reminds them too much of something else Or it's hard not to be derivative, right? The less you know The more original you can feel like you're being Or the more, you know, true to yourself

42:21In some ways Yeah, exactly The more free you can be Because, you know, sometimes dudes come up to me After the show Oh, like, your voicings are so interesting It's because I never learned guitar And I played it the way it sounded the best Not the way I was supposed to play it So it's like, a lot of times I got the five in the bass Because it sounds cool to me I feel very grateful That I have freedom around writing

42:53And chord progressions And voicings and arrangement Like, oh, wow How did you get to that? Yeah, because it sounded good So when you have to explain it to other people Or do you just rely on them On will, for instance With Eternal Flame To just figure it out As opposed to, you know When I'm charting I do feel the need Even if I came up with something cool To, well, maybe I'll just write the tab down Just so I can remember it later But usually I feel like I have to If I'm playing with a keyboard It's like, oh yeah

43:23And that's, it's basically a B But I add the six Then add the something else And the thing is Is like, before we started rehearsals I sent them the songs And for instance, for Will I could play that song to him once And he would have it all Completely figured out Without me saying anything Because he is a jazz player And he has played all sorts of stuff He did study jazz He has a different background to me And that's why it's really fun

43:53To play with people That come from all different styles of music If you've ever played with someone That's not from a Western tradition You learn so much about their music How they approach music And also how you approach music In light of like Where they take the song Or where they hear the stress on the beat Or whatever, you know It's just, it's all music You know, while we're talking about Let me just ask you one more question

44:24About the new version of I Defy Because you have a fairly lengthy guitar solo At the end of that Jazz guy So that's not you That's somebody else That's Oren Blownout Who played in Black Beetle And who's recorded on A lot of my tracks Throughout the years He is one of the greatest guitarists Him and Will are like Some of the best living guitar players In my opinion

Recording live in Saugerties

44:49So for Full Time Heist I know I've seen you play that I can link folks to the Entirely solo version Right, so you and a piano Like that is a perfectly fine Rendition of the song But the guitar on this Really blends Very nicely with the piano Who's doing that one? Ah, Chris Bruce Okay Another amazing guitar player He is the Regular guitar player For Michelle and DeGiocello Who is the bass player On all of the Lemon Slimes As well

45:20Incredible player Let me play a little Around 58 For the chorus here Pulling off the Full time Heist Pull the rope so tight Pull my eyes You know, you've got a Very gradual Again, could be Completely fine With no build at all With just you and your piano But we're going to add A little bit of some rim shotting And by that point

45:50You've got an audible Bass doing a kind of Funky little part What was this group? Was this a live approach? Was this a You lay down your piano And vocal And then bring in Your producer works with you To bring in things? Or what? Yeah, Lemon Slimes and Orchids Was recorded live Basically Live, yeah At Applehead In Saugerties Near Woodstock Upstate We did it in Four days The last four days Of 2023 It was freezing

46:20And it was warm In the studio And what about These additional vocals That are coming in To thicken things And is that just you Doing your overdubs? I did all the overdubs Then there was like A month Where I did the strings And I did all the BVs And you know Added a bunch of stuff So, yeah But the tracks Were recorded In four days The drums, bass Guitar Keys When you've got A little bit of Yeah, some keyboard

46:51Some sort of Like an organ note That kind of keeps Coming in and out And it's very light Daniel Mintzeris Yeah, incredible Keys player He actually tours With David Byrne On his Where is the sky Or whatever it's called What is the sky Yeah, very subtle Playing with that I mean, because It's sort of It's serving as the strings Basically But it just In fact, let me play A little bit from 141 Feel fake For themselves And you can use that

47:22Feel fake For Just that the high organ Eventually goes to It's mostly been sitting On one note And eventually goes Ma You know, it goes up To one And like, that's all You know, that there's room For a whole Big swoopy orchestral thing But it's just I think that's my strings I'm not sure Daniel Played on that track Are you still doing violin As a Like when you're playing With Iggy Pop or somebody Are you doing any violin Or are you Oh no, I play Wurlitzer and sing In Iggy Pop's band I do all my own String arrangements

47:53And play them all I do it for A very select Few people that ask me But I just don't have time I don't have time to do it I love Making string arrangements And I love playing them It's so fun Let's play Some of the bridge Of this one The wash of harmonies

48:30That's almost Eternal Flame level I mean, they're all Yeah They're not low But it's still this The gospel choir is coming in I love lots of voices And were you doing Something weird with it You know, you're Turning on a phaser Or how much Are you involved in the mixing I should ask you A lot Okay That was me Just doing weird things With my voice Okay Yeah, so just some Juicy reverb is all you need You know, that if you've Got the warble in the voice Itself, you don't need that And the fact that that Then went into that The interesting chord

49:01You know, the Methaney chord right there And you end it with A spoken word line Yeah, and he thought about Your use of Not even just harmonies But clearly like Using your voice Or using background vocals As a theatrical effect As a Right, I'm thinking about The original version Of Eternal Flame, right? That it seemed like You had your voice Echoing yourself on top of You know, the repeats Are not you Just singing it twice It's you As an overdose As a second character Doing it Yeah, there's so much You can do And there's so many voices In one's head

49:32At least in mine There's a lot of things Going on And to spread that out In a track I just find very interesting I did not go through Your catalog Looking for this But are there Places where On some songs Where like You're doing a fundamentally Different vocal character Right? Or is it this This is how my voice Actually sounds good And so I'm gonna do this Most of the time As opposed to The really high Squeaky thing Or something Just Do you think of it In terms of If you're just being live And you want to connect To the audience

50:02That does not lend itself To doing characters Or something In the way that These backing vocals Are a different character Yeah, I'll do a lot Of different sounds Yeah, because your voice Is an instrument You know, you can play It all different ways What's the next thing? Are you halfway Into the written As far as the songwriting Goes into the new album Or Yeah, no, I'm in Los Angeles right now Actually, I've been Working on an album And probably halfway Through writing Maybe a little more How many channels Distinct channels Are you working in?

50:34Is it just This is your songwriting And everything is going Toward the new album And then of course You're Actually, I didn't see Like, are you touring Recently with E-pop Or somebody else Or is that all A few years ago? Oh yeah, no I just played with them In Detroit a couple days ago We've been playing Consistently for a number Of years We play a show In Chicago Next month And that may be I think he's going To take a break After that He is almost 80 Yes And then I start Touring in November And I continue

51:05Through for about Almost a year Are there any other Groups that you're Playing with Touring with Or other Songwriting outlets That you've sort of Kept up Like, I know you Very recently Had the thing With Dave Okumu Like, is that an ongoing Or that was just A one-time Meeting in Paris Recording an album We did an improv Session I got Dave To come over I was recording With Tony Allen And I hired Dave To come over To record with us

51:35And we did an improv In 2019 And then I took Those improvs And wrote Myself Wrote 10 songs From them Okay So did an Extraordinary amount Of editing And chopping And this was all During the pandemic So I had This kind of time That record Would not have Happened If the pandemic Had not happened Understood All right I will link folks To something From that And the live Versions of the Two songs

Programming drums on Damned Devotion

52:02We talked about We did want to Wrap things up By introducing Just something From another One of your albums Damn Devotion Very, very Strong album Valid Jagger Was not The song that I Expected You would be Gravity But when You know I gave that a Second listen Like, okay That's a really Interesting Different take At least More programmed Right? More syntho stuff Maybe nine Out of the Twelve tracks I did drum Programming on I love drum Programming It's so fun So I really

52:33Went out There with On that album It's really Good time Plus live drums How much time Do you spend With the tech? I know you Play keyboards Do you also Mess around With the sounds? I create The drum Programming By myself So does that Extend to Whole synthscapes? Yeah Like I know You did something With Steve Jansen Recently Or you know At some point 20 years ago Yeah Yes Who isn't You know That whole crowd Of Do interesting Keyboard Instrumental

53:04Textures Oh yeah All of it Love it all All right Well I'm excited To hear what You come up With next Thanks so much For chatting So good to Talk to you And here's Vala Jagger Sing Don't lie To me Run Don't walk To me Bring Your love To me Try this Another way Don't lie To me

53:35Run Don't walk To me Bring Your love To me Try this Another way Try this Another way Sing Don't lie To me Run Don't walk

54:06To me Bring Your love To me Try this Try this Another way I've got a lot Into me Now It's bigger Than the years Step I need On yesterday And I wanna give me The way too I've had it Track up Hope If you got paranoia Now you need Seven, six, five, five, three, two

54:36One It gets you That's where the numbers Don't line up Turn up You're out of order

54:58Sing Don't lie To me Run Don't walk To me Bring Bring Your love To me Try This Another way Don't lie To me Run Don't walk To me Bring Your love To me Try This Another way To me

55:28I've got a lot To me I've got a lot of moments on me Yeah It's bigger than the rock and fellas On a Christmas tree On Christmas day All you gotta do is attend to Do simple numbers Gotta give up on the drama Even when you think without a darkness That mess of secret hiding place Nobody's keeping a painful From From Anybody When you know If you feel

55:58That's You You Can't Like You To me Sing, don't lie to me

56:29Run, don't walk to me Bring your love to me Try this another way

Closing notes and upcoming interviews

56:41Thanks so much to Joan, really inspiring artist there. The range of her songwriting, different kind of things she's tried, while still remaining an amazing supporting player so she can go out with Icky Pop and folks like that. Learn more about her work at joanaspolicewoman.com Now she said that she had not released any of her work with Black Beetle. Well, there is something on YouTube and I have it linked from the blog post associated with this at nakedlyexaminedmusic.com I'll also link to the full

57:11new or older versions the ones that we did not talk about for the first two songs, the live versions. She's done a number of interesting videos. And if you want to get your episode ad free and get my episode notes with all the structures and lyrics, go to patreon.com slash nakedlyexaminedmusic and sign up to support me at a very low cost. I have, since this interview, spoken first with Bruce Coburn an amazing, very long standing Canadian singer-songwriter you probably heard something by

57:41even if you don't know the name. And then I just spoke to Dan Cuddy, whose current band in New York is The Special Pillow. He writes very fun clever lyrics, cool melodies he's actually promoting his old band that is re-releasing their albums Hypno Love Wheel from the late 80s, early 90s so hope you come back for those interviews feel free to reach out to me mark at nakedlyexaminedmusic.com and do whatever you can to stay creative, keep on music in, until next time this is Mark Lenton-Meyer signing off.

58:12I'm looking for a matter of my day I'm looking for a matter of my day I'm looking for a matter of my day I'm looking for a matter of my day Tom Lenton-Meyer Have a matter of my day I'm looking for a matter of my day