The Vital Skill Parents Can Teach Teens and Tweens: Critical Thinking

Introduction

0:00Hello and welcome to Teenagers Untangled, the audio hug for parents going through the tween and teen years. I'm Rachel Riches, journalist, mother of two teenagers and two bonus daughters. And the mere fact that you're bothered to listen today means you're a parent who cares and you're trying your best and that makes you a good parent. Now, regular listeners will know that I'm not just obsessed with exploring what goes on in the home. I'm also fascinated by how we live in time, in society, and how we're raising kids who play a hopefully positive role and

Book Introduction

0:30contribution to that society. So when I was sent the book, Teaching Critical Thinking to Teenagers, How Kids Can Be Street Smart About AI, Algorithms, Fake News and Social Media by Marie Davies, I couldn't wait to start and I wasn't disappointed. Honestly, it's as if it was written for us and our kids' teachers. Now, Davies is a senior lecturer at the University of Auckland who emphasises making critical thinking accessible to all teenagers through her Street Smarts model that we're going to discuss and get some really great tips on how we parents can both model and

1:02teach critical thinking to our kids. Marie Davies, thank you so much for joining us.

Guest Introduction

1:07Thank you. It's lovely to be here, Rachel. And it's really late at night there, so we're very grateful. For parents listening who may think critical thinking sounds a bit abstract or academic, what is it and why does it matter so much in everyday teenage life? So critical thinking is when you're presented with some news or some information or an argument that someone's making, that first of all, it's quite normal for all of us to have an emotional response, right? So we might act angrily or we get upset or so that's the first

1:47natural reaction. If you're a critical thinker, once that emotion has passed, you'll start thinking, hang on a minute, is that right? Is what I've read or seen, is that actually right? Is that correct? And then that's when you'll start looking at the evidence and who was making the claim and what are other credible sources saying about it? And so when as a teenager is a perfect time, while all those

2:18neurosynaptic connections are being made, particularly with the tweens at about 11 to 15, is a perfect time

Teenage Development

2:26for teenagers to learn those skills so it becomes habitual. And I think that critical thinking for teenagers is fantastic because I think there's a lot of negativity around social media, there's a lot of negativity about a lot of things currently, as you alluded to in the introduction. And I think that if you're a critical thinker, it kind of gives you that power, that gives you some empowerment. You've got a framework to be thinking about all the information that we're getting, all of us are getting bombarded,

3:00not just the teenagers. So critical thinking is about that ability to think, hang on a minute, there might be a counter-argument, there might be different perspectives on the topic as well. And the other aspect of critical thinking, which is quite an interesting one that we don't hear so much about, is the ethical and moral considerations. And I think that's also really important. And I think that teenagers are plenty old enough to be thinking about that wider societal implications of all this

Misinformation

3:37misinformation and disinformation and fake news. And I've talked about that in the book a little bit. I think it's important for teenagers to be able to have opportunities to think about who are these people who are scammers, you know? Who are these people who are prepared to be paid to disseminate disinformation? And I think that when the teenagers have opportunity to have big,

4:09big conversations, you know, robust conversations with each other and with parents, they feel really respected. They like to have those big conversations and are important conversations. And again, I think if you have an understanding of how the world actually works, also can be quite empowering and you can feel a bit more in control. And it might be a big claim to make, but I really do think, Rachel, there is a link

4:40with anxiety with all of this. Interesting, hasn't it? Yeah, I do. I think that once you understand critical thinking and you feel that you can kind of logically look at the information, is it correct? Isn't it correct? I'm going to go and check with someone who I trust. I'm going to check with my teacher. I'm going to check with my friends, of course. When teenagers feel that they've got a framework to be thinking about all of this information, then I think they feel that they've got more control.

5:14And a lot of anxiety comes about when we feel that we don't have control. And so that's why I'm such an advocate for teenagers learning critical thinking. And the nice thing about critical thinking is that actually it should be done collaboratively. And of course, as we know, peer groups for teenagers are hugely important. So I think that part of the issue with social media and the problems with social media is that teenagers can feel really isolated, you know, and they can go down those rabbit holes and they feel

5:50lonely and isolated. But I would really encourage that idea of that collectiveness. So when you do have your teenagers' friends over, it would be a neat time to kind of have some of those conversations and to say to the group of them, the three or four of them, while they're eating a pizza, you know, what do you think about algorithms? What's all the fuss? Like, what is this with TikTok? And why are they banning these social media sites in Australia? And what do you think about that?

6:27And I think that that's a really great way of bringing in the ideas of critical thinking with teenagers is that idea of the collective. They, you know, we all had that experience when our kids, you know, were devoted to everything we said. And then at about 11 or 12, they start asking you to drop them off a little bit further down the road. As their teenagers become, as their friends

6:58and their peer group becomes so important to them. So I see that as a strength that to use that friendship and that companionship and that support from their peers, as well as seeing us as parents as support.

Parenting Tips

7:14Yeah, there's so much to unpack though. Absolutely brilliant tips and such a great point. And I love the anxiety angle because I do agree. I think this sense of a lack of control when there's so much emotional information coming at you, and we've all done it where you get in something that triggers an emotion and you feel like sharing it to me. Oh, look at this. And actually having that pause button there and knowing that it's worth stopping and thinking about where this came from, who's doing it. I'm interested in the origins of critical thinking because I know that you talked in your book

Socratic Thought

7:46about that actually Socratic thought underpinned this whole, well, democracy. And so what is the background of that? So he was concerned about, it was actually, it's a very, very long time ago in Greek history, but he was actually concerned about justice. And he was concerned that the people who were running the place were kind of taking advantage of those who were less well off financially, etc.

8:20So nothing's changed, has it? So that idea about, nothing's changed. So that idea around inequity is something that critical thinking should be seen for as well. That's why I was talking about the ethical and moral considerations. And I think that one of the issues with critical thinking is that it has been traditionally seen as quite elitist. So internationally, you would find that the teenagers at high schools and secondary schools who are in the very top academic classes tended to have

8:59accessibility to critical thinking. And also in the types of provocations that they were given. Say they had a novel to read or they were studying a film or something like that. My research has shown and other people's research has shown that the tasks that they are required differ from children who are teenagers who are in those lower academic classes. But I think that, in fact, the kids who are in those lower

9:29academic banded classes are our most vulnerable. And they're the ones who need critical thinking of all of us. Because scammers and those awful people who go on Discord, they are spotting vulnerable teenagers, right? That's who they go for. They don't go for the strong kids who are going to argue back and check who these people are. They're going to go for the vulnerable. So that idea came from

10:03Socrates of protecting the innocent, the weaker people from society. And of course, those who were in power weren't very happy about that. And he was given a poison and off he went to the other side. So it is interesting that you've brought that history up because, I mean, it is interesting too with social media and that the issues around misinformation and disinformation are not new. Propaganda is not

10:36new, right? Propaganda existed in World War II. Right throughout history, we've had propaganda. What's made it so tougher for teenagers now is it's ubiquitous, isn't it? It's the amount and the speed with which the information is disseminated. And one of the reasons why teenagers are very vulnerable is, as I said before, they really care about, particularly that 11 to 15 age group, they care

11:09very deeply what their friends think. And they care very, very deeply what other people think. So if you and I were to see a reel and it had 5,000 likes, we're not going to be that impressed, right? But for a teenager, that's very important. They are more likely to trust something that's had a lot of likes or an influencer. And influencers are very clever, using things like music and sounds to

11:40kind of capture their attention. So understanding teenagers is really important. That peer group is a very powerful influence. And so that's why they're more vulnerable with social media than you or I. So vulnerable. Yes. And actually, I think we want to sort of delve into the social media and all the teenager stuff. But I think what you actually said in your book was all of us struggle with logic and choosing information because we tend to prefer things that confirm

12:10our bias. If we see something that's got a lot of likes, then that's going to be really impressive to us, particularly if we're a teenager. But actually, generally, as human beings, if something is an opinion for us, we're going to seek out views that we agree with. It's something that's not something that's not to be kind of afraid of. It's just accepting that you have cognitive bias. And that's why in my book, I talk about the importance of stories and experiences. So before you can start expecting teenagers to be thinking rationally and logically

12:46and sensibly about all of this information, it's important that they have the opportunity to express their emotion, to express their story. And so you can say, oh, so what's your experience with that? Or have your friends had any experience with that? And by doing that, they then become aware of their perspective. And then they are in a better position to understand where that bias

13:17has come from. Critical thinking is often expected. I think that jumped too quickly about having an argument and a claim and reasons and all of that. That space before it is crucial. And often, you know, we think we don't have time, but it's really important to, yeah, as I've said, to allow those stories. And it would be a fun thing too, as I've said, when the kids are over with their friends,

13:49you know, as a parent to ask for these stories. And I actually, I had a whole load come to stay with me one summer. And it was the most fascinating thing because people don't listen to teenagers actually saying what they think before jumping in. And there was this brilliant research I did for a previous episode, which was about conflict management. And one of the acronyms I picked up, which I've used ever since, was LUFU. Listen until they feel understood. And then you can actually have conversations. I will say it in my mind,

14:20if I'm thinking, oh no, you've got to understand me, it really helps me pause for them to express themselves. I think that one of the problems with teenagers is that sometimes a 13-year-old can be six foot tall or they can start slamming doors and shrugging and you say, how was your day? And they don't, you know, they don't talk to you. And one of the interesting aspects about teenagers is that they can appear to not want that closeness, but they absolutely do. So to normalize that behavior

14:56is really important. And it may be that you meet outside the fridge and you say, you know. That's a great place to meet. You know, like somewhere like that, something that's informal, casual, and you just might want to say, oh, how are you going? Yeah. What I've noticed has been a lot in the media and a lot of concern about such and such. What do you think about that? So it doesn't have to be around the dinner table. That sort of, you know how parents can get quite frustrated when they say, what do you

15:31think? And they don't get an answer, but it's important to not give up. To not give up. Yeah. And it can feel too confrontational, can't it? If it feels a bit too formal and they're saying, well, what do you think? Then it can make teenagers feel like they're being inspected rather than that you're genuinely interested in what they have to say. What I would do with my own kids is I would tell my own story. So algorithms are a massive issue, right? Because these social media platforms know everything about us and what we do. And I might

16:06say something like, I was in Melbourne recently. When I was there, I went to a comedy show and then I would say to my children, oh, you know, and all I'm getting now are reels about comedy shows. So my phone knew that I'd gone and then I'm like, oh, I'm going to have to change my algorithm now. It's so annoying. You know, so it's that collectiveness. It's that we're all in this together, I think is really comforting to teenagers as well. It's not just something that's being done to them, but it's a

16:40problem for all of us. So sharing your stories about social media is really helpful as well. I think that you've made such an important point there. And I've actually noticed with my teens, when I talk openly about the battles that I have, or even just things like I can't manage my time today or because I'm tired or whatever, I hear them using those same words, talking about themselves. And it's so effective for helping them process what they're experiencing rather than them thinking,

17:14oh, I don't want to admit it because my parents think they're perfect. And then that'll make me look like, I can't do things. It's like your phone at night, right? You know, like you'd say something like, oh, I've got into such terrible habits. When I wake up at two in the morning, I always pick up my phone. I can't help myself. But the trouble is, you know, it's got an alarm on it. So I think I'm going to go to a cheap shop and buy an old-fashioned alarm clock and put it by my bed. Do you want me

17:47to pick you up one when I'm there? You talk about modelling quite a lot in your book. And actually, for example, I take all my devices away from my kids, is I put my devices outside so they can visibly see them at night. And I say, you can look at any time. My devices are all there. Give me yours. And I lock them in my room. But you have some wonderful thoughts about how important it is for us to model this thinking and this behaviour. So there will be something that will be current in your news

18:20at the moment. And so you would use that language of, gosh, you know, I heard the other day that someone was claiming such and such. And I thought about that. And I was thinking, is that right? And, you know, and so then I actually went and looked at CNN to see what they had to say. And they were saying such and such. And so you're just using that language of curiosity and inquiry. Critical

18:51thinking can be more than just getting multiple perspectives. It's quite important to say, well, actually, there was an interesting expert who had a counter-argument. And that idea of having your ideas counter-argued is really important for teenagers that they have opportunities to experience having their ideas challenged. At some point in our life, we're all going to have our ideas challenged,

19:25right? Whether it be in a relationship or at work. And some people really don't cope with that. They really struggle emotionally with having their ideas counter-challenged. But it actually takes opportunity and practice that we don't take it as a personal affront, that we can take a deep breath and say, well, actually, the reason I believe that is such and such. And so that counter-challenge

19:57will either confirm what we think, or it may be that we do change our mind. And that idea of changing your mind, Rachel, is something that I think is very important to model. But I used to think this, it's a problem in society because often the politicians get ridiculed if they change their minds. But actually, I respect politicians the most who say, well, I used to think this, and then I went and spoke to the community. I went and spoke to the locals, and I read all these reports,

20:32and I've actually changed my mind. So that's another good critical thinking disposition is to say, I've changed my mind. Yeah. And you also have said that actually for bullies, if a teenage bully learns to construct a good argument and to think about the issue from an alternative point of view, they're much less likely to turn into an adult bully. Yes, that's right. That's exactly right. Bullying is a lack of empathy, isn't it? And so if you do have practice and opportunity to think

21:06about ideas from other perspectives from a counter-challenge, then that helps your understanding and in turn that helps with empathy. Yeah. Can you explain how schemas work in our brain

Schemas and Thinking

21:20and how they affect our thinking? And what is a schema? So a schema is that we have a schema for everything, right? So if I go to the supermarket, I could probably do it with my eyes shut because I've been to the supermarket 15 million times. If you put me in a different supermarket. Or they move it around when they rearrange it and you go and you're like, I don't know what I'm doing, right? Yes. So you've got us, we've got a schema for everything. There's a process called myelination. So if you do something repeatedly, the sheath around those connections strengthens and

21:57so that those neural pathways become very strong and that gives you automaticity. So you can remember things. And so schemas are things that you can have strong schemas that you're able to think quite conceptually and deeply. And so while, because, so what happens is that when children turn about 11,

22:2711 for girls and 12 for boys, our grey matter is the biggest it's ever going to be. And those neural pathways, those connections start getting chopped. And so there's an expression that's often used, and I'm sure you would have had other people in this program, talk about that idea of use it or lose it. And so if a teenager, when they're about 11 or 12, learns to play a musical instrument, learns to play other language, learns to do other things, those connections become very strong. So that's why learning

23:05about critical thinking as a teenager is a wonderful time because that's the connection, that neural pathways of automatically thinking, what are the reasoning? What is the evidence? I'm going to look at the source. I'm going to talk to other people about this, can develop a sophisticated schema. Right. Fascinating. And it's so opposite at that time. The depth of that means that you've got more

23:36ability when you're getting more bits of information to analyse it because you've got a lot more detail behind in your sort of long-term memory, haven't you? You've come up with something called a street smarts model. And I think it's to do with the complexity of a topic can really affect a teenager's ability to think critically. So can you give me an idea of how this street smarts model would work or what it is? So if you're going to be, well, street smarts is developed for, you can use it at home and

24:08you can use it at school. So if there's something really important that you want to talk to a teenager about, my recommendation is that first of all, as you say, it needs to be something provocative, right? It needs to be something really interesting and not, not, not hundrum or they're not, they're not going to be interested. Once you've got that topic, that's a really important topic. You start with their story. What you said with that wonderful acronym, just listen to their story and their experiences

24:40and then you just listen. And then you can say, well, what's your position on it? In critical thinking, they use the word argument and argument doesn't mean when you're fighting with your brother. You know, an argument is a substantial claim. So you could say to a teenager, well, what's your position on that? And then they'll tell you and you go, oh, that's interesting. What, you know, where did you

25:11get that idea from? It's that idea of evidence, you know? And then, and then to just gently say, well, I don't know about that. Would, would everyone think that? And you could play the devil's advocate there. Well, I'm not sure that counsellors would think that or I don't think that Joe, our neighbour, would think that actually. What do you think Joe would think? The cross neighbour or someone, you know? Teenagers are plenty old enough to start thinking

25:41inequities in society. And you can have that conversation about, well, who would benefit from that? Who would not benefit from that, from your position? So thinking about others that in anything, there's inequities, right? And in any position, there's power issues. And teenagers love talking about that big stuff. They do. Oh, they love it. Yeah. So, so you've started from them. You started from them, their story, going into their position where they're having to justify it, thinking about

26:18different perspectives, a counter-argument, and then thinking about the wider societal issues of that argument. And then the last part is really just thinking about whether or not they still think that, whether after having that discussion, it's confirmed or they've changed their mind or might not have been changed, you know, might have been slightly tweaked. Critical thinking is about the strength of your argument. So you and I could be, have the same

26:52argument, but my argument might be stronger or your argument is stronger. So that's another word to use at home. Well, that was a strong, you know, strong argument that they use. That was pretty amazing. You know, with debating, you're either, it's that right or wrong, but critical thinking's not that binary right or wrong. Yes. And you used a phrase in your book I loved, which is, it's not about winning the argument. It's about finding the winning argument. So it's not, so depersonalizing

27:28it. It's not that you're, you know, you don't have the right way to think. It's that, oh, this argument looks better. And so an example here recently, a mayor of a smaller regional place said that we've had some terrible flooding here recently. And a mayor said to the media, oh, you know, the government's calling out these emergency crises before they happen. It's too

27:59woke. A topic like that would be a fun one to talk about with your teenagers. It's got to be something provocative and ambiguous and meaty enough for them to talk about using critical thinking. Rachel, you're not going to be using critical thinking every day while you're eating your porridge. But at times, having those big, important discussions is wonderful. And I've worked with

28:31teenagers for a very long time. And the most important thing to a teenager is respect. Yes. They want to be respected and they want their ideas to be respected and they want to be heard. And if you are, if they develop those critical thinking skills, they're more likely to be heard and to be respected. What a great point. There's a certain president at the moment who's getting a lot of flack and people are saying

29:02all sorts of names and things. But the people who are saying why, what, what, what he's doing isn't correct in causing harm are going to be heard more, aren't they?

29:18Absolutely right. Yes. And I love that. I think I interviewed Dr. David Jager quite some time ago about his book, 10 to 25. And the thing that really sparked a new way of thinking for me was he said that from the age of puberty, they become absolutely focused on status and respect. And if you're trying to understand behaviour that looks really dumb, just focus on where are they trying to get status and respect here. I'd love to talk about social media. You do mention the social media ban in your book and sort of the concepts. And what do you think are the good and the bad things? Because

29:53one of the things you said, which I completely agree with, is that it doesn't actually create harmful attitudes such as racism, misogyny or bullying. It's reflecting them. And I have heard that from other people too. So what are your thoughts about the sort of pros and cons of social media and for teenagers? Well, I'm going to give you a bit of a long-winded answer. The reason why, one of the reasons why teenagers are more vulnerable to the harm on social media is that because their

30:28brains aren't fully developed, there's the part in the middle of our brain, our limbic system, which has got our amygdala and our hippocampus, right? For teenagers, when they read information or hurtful information, their emotions are activated. Because their prefrontal cortex, their reasoning and their executive functioning isn't fully developed, right? So they are going to react more emotionally

31:02than you and I to some of the reals that they're getting. So that's one of the reasons why they are more vulnerable to some of the social media platforms. Having said that, because their prefrontal cortex isn't fully developed, we want to be developing opportunities to develop that reasoning, executive functioning, that maturity. So if you're doing that all the time,

31:37if you're overprotecting and not allowing opportunities for them to be becoming increasingly self-managing as they get older, you're not actually helping them. You're better to be providing support. I can't emphasize that enough that, you know, that we've got these platforms. You know, who are these people that are, you know, that are sitting, beavering away, working out algorithms and having those conversations to me is a lot healthier. And yeah, overprotection

32:17is something that's an interesting idea, isn't it? Because we all love our children so much and you want to protect them. But actually, if you overprotect teenagers, they can then become vulnerable. A big thing to teach teenagers and children is to trust their intuition. So if they're on something like Discord, they can be watching Arsenal on a football game. And you know how you have the conversations that come up. And there are people who will go on those conversations who

32:53aren't interested in watching Arsenal. They're wanting to connect with teenagers and to start grooming them, right? Well, if you overprotect teenagers, how are they ever going to spot that language of, you know, grooming, etc. So I think it's much healthier and more helpful to teenagers to be talking and listening. And like I say, when their friends come over to chat about the stuff. And also, I think,

33:26ideally, in an ideal world, if you know your teenagers, friends, parents, is very helpful. If you all decide, if you all decide on kind of the same rules, is very helpful. Because then the kids can go, oh, our parents, you know, they won't let me watch. They're only letting me on the screen two hours a day. But because all of their friends have got those same rules, can really help. So it's

34:01those things that are my preference rather than banning. I think that with banning, unfortunately, other platforms are going to pop up very, very quickly. And I think that banning in teenagers is like a contradictory in turn. How can we make this more exciting for teenagers? Yeah, I think that many, many teenagers, including one of my children, would see that as a challenge.

34:34The evidence from Australia is that the kids immediately worked out using VPNs, how to get on. And so what were they learning? And it becomes the cool kids. Like, we're the cool kids, because now we've got something that you guys can't. And I mean, you know, I think parents have to decide for themselves. I do think I'm not going to tell people what they should and shouldn't be doing. And I completely understand people who take one or the other viewpoint, because it's a difficult, it's much more nuanced than some

35:04other things. And I, but I do very much agree with you that I think it's really important that we're engaging with those kids on what they might be accessing and why it has the impact it has, because I think that they learn so much from hearing us talking about these things, even if they're not, they're rolling their eyes. And I love you've got some, you've got a whole section talking about the algorithms, the different algorithms in different platforms. And I'm not going to go into them all right now, but how do you think we should be talking to our teenagers

35:37about this rabbit hole nature of algorithms? Because we can say that this happens. And even ourselves, even sometimes I'll be researching something and I'll think, oh gosh, everyone's thinking this. And I think, wait a second. And then I think, right, where can I find the opposite viewpoint? Because I think these algorithms are now so powerful that, and particularly in AI, they'll push stuff that you want to hear. How can we talk to our kids about this? Because the

36:08teenagers often feel their views are universally obvious.

36:13I think that, well, there's no way around it. Of anything teenagers need to understand with social media is algorithms. They must understand how they work. And you could, if they were, if you said to your teenager, what's the difference between an Instagram, how the Instagram algorithms work and TikTok algorithms work, can you explain it to me? You can sort of do that naive questioning as though

36:43you don't know. If they don't know, go, I'd jump on your laptop or whatever and go, let's find out. Yes, I love this. And go, oh, oh gosh, that's interesting. If you were really, really concerned that one of your children's behavior had changed quite considerably and they're sullen and they're non-talkative and they don't seem to be interacting with their friends and that lack of interaction is very concerning, you go to the school and you

37:22talk to someone at the school and you tell them that you're concerned. I would go to a therapist or a counselor and describe the behavior, describe the shifts in behavior and take it very, very seriously. It's dangerous to blame social media, you know what I mean? So if your teenager is playing basketball or in a chess club and there's that banter, that mischievousness, that cheekiness,

37:58they've got friends and then they're arguing with you, I don't want to go to bed, it's not my time for bed, you know, you're always picking on me, all that normal stuff, then that going down a rabbit hole is not so dire. It's when you see that other behavior where the algorithm has hooked them into an obsession, obsessive behavior, that's when I would worry and seek help and support.

38:33I thank you so much for saying that because I think a lot of parents wonder and worry about what's the tipping point, how do I know? And one of the things I loved about your recommendations was one tip was to help your kids by getting them to annotate things that they've seen. Is it fact or is it opinion? You know, you can actually sort of go through stuff and go, but also when you're talking about interactive, so you've just mentioned your kids playing basketball or in a chess club or something. And how important the relationship nature of understanding critical thinking is,

39:10because, you know, one of the things you pointed out is that we found this in COVID where they were sort of sitting at home, you know, doing their thing and they lost all of those skills, they lost all of those opportunities. And I think in some societies, we haven't really got that back yet. What are your thoughts about how important this relationship nature, the relationships we have are to encouraging critical thinking? Relationships are extremely important for teenagers, their relationship with

39:41their teachers, with their parents, their grandparents. And it's tied in with that idea that they're reacting more emotionally. So sometimes you'll hear teenagers say, oh, you'll often hear about that age 14, they'll say, oh, my teacher doesn't like me. And it's quite irrational. So relationships, that's why relationships are very, very important to teenagers. So relationships can be fostered through critical

40:18thinking, through seeing misinformation, disinformation, fake news, going down a rabbit hole on your social media. You are not alone. You're not alone with it. It's about sharing and talking to others about this. Because sure as eggs, their friends will be having the same problems. So talking about it is important. I love that. And also the sort of people that they're following, like, who are these people?

40:49Rather than shying away from it and saying, don't, you can't follow that person, you shouldn't. It's actually, you know, because you've got this wonderful point about how important it is for us parents to model good behaviour, to have these conversations and engage in their lives. What you value as a family is very, very important to teenagers. So if you make a lot of comments about, if you say, oh, so-and-so has lost a lot of weight, or isn't so-and-so beautiful, and oh, look at them, aren't they beautiful? Look at

41:22her shoes, look at her treats. If you're valuing beauty, that is where a teenager is more likely to see that beauty is valued. So they're going to more likely look at influences who support that. But if you value, I don't know, bravery or, you know, sort of people who are comedians or sort of, so valuing other things, that modelling as well. So that choice of your language, how their fathers talk

41:58about women and girls is hugely important to boys, isn't it? Yeah. Where did that come from, that so many boys started watching and listening to Andrew Tate? Where did that come from? Well, I think, yeah, I think they did. Yes. I mean, I think that a lot of boys are looking for role models who inspire them and make them feel good about their masculinity. And they've gone looking for positivity and they've got something that's actually feeding them poison. It's very sad, I think. And you're right. I think the values that we show at home, I've talked about this so many times on

42:32my podcast, you need to understand what your values are, figure them out, have conversations with your partner. Like what are our values? And are we actually living those at home and showing our kids that that's what we genuinely think and feel? And have fun. Yeah. And have fun. Exactly. Lots of fun. And I think it's in the fun moments that you could make that connection and then the kids feel really valued and they matter in this unit. And then they're more prepared to raise other things that maybe they're more worried about. There are a couple of things I want to cover just before we

43:05go. One of them is you talk about the types of questions that can be used because a lot of the times kids will be listening. And I've had this with my kids where they'll be listening to conversation or something which triggers, they feel uncomfortable and they don't really know how to get engaged in it because they don't know the sorts of questions to ask that will open up the discussion because it sounds very emotional. What sort of questions can be used? So I'll talk about four different types of questions. One question that's very useful to learn is the uptake question.

43:39So you were using the uptake question throughout this whole interview. So I would say something and you'd say, oh, that's really interesting. Can you tell me more about that? So uptake is it. Can you tell me some more about that? Have you got an example of that? What do you mean by that? Three types of questions that can really raise the level of a conversation so it's not, you know, just sort of silly banter. And there's one called speculative and that's when you go, gosh, I wonder if that's right

44:09or what did they mean by that, do you think? So that sort of inquiring speculative one. Another one is analysis. And analysis is where you're looking for a pattern. You're sort of looking for, you know, patterns of thought that sort of collectify ideas, general ideas. And then the third one is generalization where you're sort of making a conclusion. So you might have had a conversation for, say, 10 minutes and then you go, I suppose what we've agreed on then is this. You know,

44:47you're kind of making some conclusions. Yes. Brilliant. So questioning is absolutely key to critical thinking. As I say, you need practice to learn them. And as you've said a number of times throughout this podcast is that modelling, if you did that type of questioning at home would be so fantastic for teenagers. They'd really start thinking about things. The other thing, very

45:17quickly, you know how your teenagers have novels to read at school? If you read the novels that they're reading or they quite often in media studies will do film studies. So I used to read the books and watch the same films. And that's when you can have really good chats. And of course, they love it because you're helping them get a better grade at school. My daughter studied media studies for a while and

45:50she, I sat and watched the things with her and she'd be pointing out the techniques that were being used. And it was interesting for me too. I was like, really? Gosh, you know, this is amazing stuff. And so it's wonderful. It's a wonderful way of connecting as well, isn't it? I love that suggestion. When my children got to about age 14 or 15, I started taking them to kind of indie movies, sort of realto movies, not blockbuster movies anymore. And they thought they were so grown up

46:24because of those movies, you know, people have got their glass, you know, the glass of wine and it's a bit posher and it's a bit more grown up and they loved that. And then we could have deeper chats about those sort of more art house, indie type films can be a really good way to have good conversations. That's a great suggestion. I'm going to do that with my kids. That's fantastic. And one other thing was fallacious arguments. Can you talk us through how you spot them, what they are?

47:00So that's things like cherry picking. So, you know, when you're given some information, it comes back to that cognitive bias, Rachel, that if you, like a particular politician, right, and you hear them talking on the news or you're reading about them online, you will, you will pick out what you want to hear. And on the other side, if it's a politician

47:36that you don't like, you'll cherry pick, you'll pick out the bits that confirm what you're already thinking. So it's that kind of fallacies that also help us to become more critical of our own thinking. We're aware of our shortcomings and it does go back to that bias. Oh, like the red herring, that there's an argument and then someone sort of comes up with information that's really got

48:07nothing to do with the topics, like a distraction. You know, having a detective shows, they often put in red herrings, don't they, to distract us from really what's going on. So it's things like that, that stop us. They'll push you off track. They push you off track for your thinking. Is there anything else? Last thoughts for parents who are sitting here? I do actually have lots of educators as well. Are there any thoughts that you have that you'd like to share just to leave this in a way that would give parents something to really chew on or to just a thought

48:41to go away with? I hold some optimism about social media. I think that, I think increasingly people will stop being so obsessed with their phones. I think that it is generally considered now that too much screen time is harmful. And I think, I would like to think that we can go back to talking. If your children's friends come over, go and buy some board games, go and buy Jenga,

49:19go and buy Pictionary, put them on the table, get the pizzas and just leave the room and you'll hear the laughter within 10 minutes. So it is about providing opportunities that aren't screen time. Instead of saying, you know, you're on your phone too much, get off, get off, get off. What are other things that are in place that are being provided so that, you know, because kids will say they're

49:52bored a lot. So I just think, think about other things that can replace that screen time. Completely agree. I mean, we don't have to micromanage it. Like you said, you just, it's like, just drop the seeds and they'll pick them up. And I totally agree. And I think that just taking away something without providing an example, because the other thing is we forget that we grew up in a time when it was obvious that you'd go out and ride your bike. It was obvious that you would, whatever.

50:23And these kids have grown, have grown up with modeling of a lot of parents just being on their screens. And we need to sort of push back into that environment, the home environment, the school environment. Cause I also suggested this at school, you know, bringing up the board games at school, the cards, cards are brilliant. You can never go wrong with cards. Just have those things available. So you can, yes, exactly. And they're cheap and you can carry them in your pocket. So even if you're out and you're waiting, you're late for something, you know, you're having to wait for a long time in a queue, bring out the cards. So yes, I, I think that I love your point and I think it's actually

50:56critically important and it's also more fun and we want fun. Marie Davis, what an amazing conversation. Thank you so much. I loved your book. And if people want to buy it or they want to contact you, what's the best way? It is, it is currently being sold all over the world. Taylor and Francis Routledge who published the book are truly international. So wherever you are, you would be able to, to, to buy the book. I will put the link in the podcast note. So they know exactly how to get in contact with you. So just go onto the links and you'll find whatever

51:28you want. I'm going to do a write-up of this on my sub stack, just so that we've got a bit more, cause I love these sorts of conversations. I think they're so important. Uh, Marie Davis, thank you for joining us. If you found this useful right now, send it to someone else, you know, and it will help them. It helps my podcast. It's the way that I get known and seen. You can contact me on teenagersuntangled at gmail.com. You can write a review or give it a five star if you'd like to. And, uh, you can find me on sub stack. I'm teenagersuntangled.substack.com. All the links

51:59are in the notes. That's it for me. Have a great week. Big hug. Bye-bye.