Parenting Thriving Teens using Science

Introduction

0:00Hello and welcome to Teenagers Untangle, the audio hug for fearless parents of tweens and teens. I'm Rachel Richards, former BBC correspondent and CNBC Europe world news anchor, mother of two teenagers and two bonus daughters. Now we all want our kids to do well, but as parents and leaders, the big question is how do we create the conditions for us and our children to thrive? Now today, we'll get some simple, actionable things we can implement at home that can make all the difference. Who's going to give them to us? Well, we're

Guest Introduction

0:32honoured to be joined by the author of a book that's just about to come out called Growing Minds, the Science of Raising Thriving Teens. The author, Dr. Katie Granville-Chapman, is a mum who served in the British Army in Iraq, Europe and the United States, then moved into school leadership roles and completed a doctorate at Oxford University, exploring leadership and flourishing. She now teaches at Oxford, is a deputy head at Wellington College, and I know how good she is because she acted as a mentor to my daughter, Phoebe. She co-founded a global youth leadership movement, which is active in over 100 countries. So she spends

1:06her life translating research into practical ways adults can use to help young people and teens to grow in character and flourish. So what better person to have helping our own community? Thanks for joining us, Katie. Oh, Rachel, it's so wonderful to be with you. Thank you so much. And goodness me, has Phoebe been an inspiration in my life. I'm so, so, so glad I got to spend that time with her. Thank you. A quick thanks to your publishers for giving us a discount code for people who want to pre-order your book. I'll pop that in the episode notes. Now, Katie, in your book,

Dopamine and Teen Behavior

1:38you explain how modern life hijacks the teenage reward system through screens, gaming, junk food, social media. What should parents understand about dopamine that completely changes how they approach teen behaviour? Yeah. Oh, it's so tough for parents now. What exactly, as you say, our reward system is designed to be so helpful, so motivating, allowing us to get the things that really matter for our flourishing done to allow us to contribute to society to make beautiful connections. And yet it feels like big companies, so big tech companies, big ultra-processed food

2:15companies have really, really hijacked this reward system. And we're fighting against them because they're employing the best neuroscientists, the best psychologists to try and take our children, our teenagers, who are so sensitive to rewards at this age. You know, they're really chasing that pleasure. They really want the release of dopamine. And it's for the good. We want them to be sensitive to this pleasure at this time and these rewards. But the trouble is, is that you can get the rewards

2:46so much more easily from gaming or social media or junk food. And they've been designed that way. And so for parents, I know I feel like I'm failing every single day to try and help my children get off their screens, eat the healthy food, go and connect in person with their friends, do their homework. It's so, so difficult because in comparison to the junk food, the social media, the games, it's so hard for them to actually make that choice and choose to do the less rewarding,

3:20long-term fulfilling activity rather than the kind of much more immediately gratifying, low effort activity. Yes. So as parents, it's not a personal feeling that we are struggling with this. We're all struggling with it. It's not a new thing. Well, it's a new thing for this generation.

Reducing Dopamine Habits

3:38Yeah. Many parents actually feel powerless about screens. Do you have any advice on what actually works when it comes to reducing this pull of these dopamine habits? Oh my gosh. Well, first of all, please, please know it is unbelievably difficult. Have so much self-compassion. Be really, really forgiving on yourself. Be really, really patient with yourself. And it's really, really hard because the trouble is teenagers are super sensitive to being nagged. They're super sensitive to being criticized and they don't really want to be in a fight with us.

4:14So the first thing I'd say is listen really, really well to them. Oh, what's this game giving you? What do you love about this game? What's the impact of this game on you? How do you feel after you finish the game? What do you think in terms of who you want to become? Is this game helping you? So really trying to have an open and curious conversation about it. And, you know, I think I work with teenagers and have done for years and years and years, and actually they're pretty clued up to this. They have an idea actually the games aren't really serving them. You know, they're not going to be able to get where

4:49they want to be. They're not going to be able to become a doctor, a dentist, a nurse, whatever, if they keep on gaming because they just won't do the things that will allow them to reach their long-term goals. And so I think that gives us quite a lot of leverage if we can. And this is so hard if we can really have that conversation with them, listen really, really well to their ideas and try and come up with a kind of collaborative solution that we're both happy with. So, you know, we set the boundaries together and then we hold the boundaries together and really think about the impact of it. But please

5:23know this is much easier said than done because we know that rewarding activities are so addictive and actually they're going to feel agitated. They're going to feel frustrated. They're going to feel like they desperately need more of that activity or food after they come off. So I suppose that would be another bit of advice. Don't do it after they've just been indulging in some gaming or social media or just had a load of junk food. That's not the time to do it because they'll have kind of their stress response will have been going, you know, they've been releasing all these awful things like

5:56dinorphin that make them feel rubbish. So I think it needs to be happening at a time outside that when you're both calm, maybe driving in the car because that's quite good because you're side by side rather than face to face on a walk, something like that. So, but it is really, really hard. We're really up against it now, I think. No, you're right. We've all done that. We've all panicked when we've seen that they've been doing too much of it. We take it away and then we try to have that conversation then. That's the worst time to have that conversation. Absolutely. And I love your point because I have done an episode with my younger daughter about the fact that kids do want to do well.

6:32They really do. It's just that there are a lot of things conspiring against it and having that conversation, like you said, where you sit down and discuss with them what their hopes and dreams are, what they like about the games and actually sit and listen to it and engage so that they don't feel you're just fighting against them and then come up with decisions that they have bought into. Like, what do you hope for? Okay, I'm here to help you with that. So that when you then have to put in place a boundary, you just go, it's the boundary's fault. It's like you decided this

7:02boundary was a good idea. I'm just here to help you. Like, oh, I'm sorry about the boundary, you know, right? Because then we're not doing all the heavy lifting all the time. And I found that really helps me. Yeah, it makes such a difference. There's a really hopeful message running through the book that teenagers are incredibly adaptable. So I do think for some parents, we'll see our kids perhaps going off course or something's not quite right. And then we panic and we worry that maybe we've broken them somehow. What does the latest neuroscience tell us about how changeable that teenage brain actually is? Oh, my goodness. So malleable. So malleable. It's so exciting.

7:36It's constantly rewiring. It's pruning. It's kind of laying down these beautiful pathways that can either serve us for good or not so good. But the good thing is we can, with effort, we can change those habitual pathways. We can change our habit of reaching for the junk food, of going on our phone for the social media. We really, really can. And actually, that's something that's true for life. So us as parents, if we feel that we've got some really unfortunate habits, really unfortunate ways of responding to our teenagers, we can change as well. And we can always rebuild and repair our

8:12relationship with them because both of our brains are changing constantly and our teenagers even more so than ours. So I think that's a super helpful, super helpful message.

Implementing Change

8:23And if you say we can change, are there any kind of ideas for things that we can do that can implement change? Because I think that's one of the hard things, isn't it? Is this sort of, well, how does that happen? Definitely. And again, I think this comes back to who do our teenagers want to be? Who do we want to be? Because I think when we align our behavior with who we really want to become, that person, you know, in the future, our future selves, then we're much more likely to stick to those habits or behavior changes. So a brilliant example of this when I was researching for the book was

8:56Andre Agassi. And, you know, we all remember him with this punk hair and his ripped jeans and bit of an attitude on the court. And he had an absolute crash later on where things started to go really wrong. He said he didn't even like tennis anymore. And this was just a massive misalignment with who he wanted to be, the person he wanted to be with the behaviors and choices that he was making. So once he decided that actually he did really want to be that professional tennis player,

9:27this did matter to him. It was worthwhile. Then it was much easier for him to change his behaviors. And you could see later on, the success came. And I think we see this time and time again in celebrities, but also in teenagers, they really kind of change their mind on who they want to be. And it becomes much less outcome driven, and much more about kind of identity and being that really great human. So another one, I suppose, another celebrity would probably be Angelila Jolie. Again,

10:01bit of a reputation for being slightly wild child, but latterly decided that she really wanted to make a contribution in the world. And so she was able to really change her habits and behaviors so that she could be that advocate for change for the UN. And she went on these extraordinary missions where she was really, really trying to make the world better in the most challenging places. And that was because she wanted to become that person who was really serving the world and using her fame for good, rather than the kind of just chasing pleasure and Oscars and yeah, just having a fun party time. So

10:38I think always this idea of aligning who we want to become, both as parents and both as children, is going to make that behavior change much more stickable. And yeah, I love that. Yeah, that makes so much sense is that this idea that if we can actually create some idea about what sort of person they think they want to become, and that lines up very carefully with what they're doing day to day, it's much more easy. And I think it's like the conversations I've had with people about

11:08values and how, when we understand our values, and then we live within our values, our life is so much easier and more fulfilling than if we have values that we don't know, and then we're living in contrast to them. So as a parent, if you've got a child and you're like, well, how do I use

Setting Standards

11:28identity-based habits? How would we have that conversation with our child, do you think? Oh, there are quite a few good routes in, and it kind of depends on your child. You could just ask them about their values, like what's important to you? And they may well be able to articulate, actually, you know, I want to be a kind person. I want to be a brave person. I want to be the kind of person who shows up for people. And that would be fantastic. But for some young people, that's a bit harder. And so you might need to be a bit more creative with your questions. So maybe we're at your

12:0030th birthday party. What do you want people to be celebrating about you? You know, what do you want us to, you know, have, yeah, what do you want to achieve by the time you're 30? What kind of impact on the world do you want to have made? Or 21, if that's too far away, or even 50, if they're kind of the big thinkers. But this idea of kind of time travel forwards, or maybe it's sometimes nice to think of your heroes. So, you know, someone who really, you really, really respect and love, what would you want them to say about you? You know, what qualities would you want them to

12:32highlight in you? And, you know, how can we help you create a set of behaviours and habits that allow you to be that person? And how can I support you in that? So, yeah, I think just trying to get them to envisage the kind of person that they want to be, and then come back to that. I love the use of a hero. And actually, one of those conversations can be very powerful, just finding out who their heroes are, who the people are that they admire, and what is it about those people? And then drilling down from that, saying, okay, so that's a value of yours. That's

13:05something that really matters to you. I think that's a really valuable conversation to have. And I think one of the difficulties as a parent is that we find it hard to try and get teenagers to have healthy habits without sounding controlling. Are there any tips you can give us to sort of put this in place? Let's say I think my child should be doing more exercise or they should, you know, are there any other things that we could be doing? Oh, it's so hard, isn't it? Because we worry so much about our children and we just desperately,

13:39and also humans want to be in control, especially as a parent. You know, we have these ideas for our children, you know, I'm going to have a fit, healthy child who works hard at schools, kind to all their friends. And so we just want to implement that and make it happen. For children with teenagers, there's no way that they have any interest in being who you want them to be. Well, some do, but that's probably misguided as well. And so it's really a question of them figuring out what they really want. And then unfortunately, we can only support them with that. Because teenagers hate

14:15being controlled generally. I mean, all humans hate being controlled. But I think especially the teenage brain, you know, they're breaking free from their parents, they need that autonomy, they need to be able to go out into the world as independent young people. And so it's perfectly natural, but it does mean any effort from us to say you must eat your greens, you absolutely cannot have chocolates, or you must eat everything on your plate is highly likely to backfire. So again, it has to come back to, you know, what kind of eating habits might help you to be who you want

14:49to be? You know, what kind of eating habits are going to help you feel really good? When you eat this? How does it feel? When you eat that? How does it feel? When you've exercised? How does it feel? Or, and I think the thing with exercise as well is you kind of want to make it sustainable. So it needs to be enjoyable for them. And I guess that's where we can be helpful in terms of, oh, do you want to try judo? Or there's a story in the book about this wonderful girl called Bea who took up weightlifting. I mean, so cool. And definitely not what her parents suggested,

15:21but it's something she came up with. And her parents have been unbelievably supportive. And it's quite unusual for a girl to be kind of weightlifting. She's come second in the country in this, which is so exciting. So yeah, I think just trying to give them as much autonomy as possible and then supporting them logistically as much as we can. Because if they do want to try, I don't know, tennis or golf or running or whatever it is, just really trying to be there to support them. And again, just, I think being so self-compassionate because we all know what's good for them.

15:58We really do. But actually knowing what's good for them and them doing what's good for them is quite a gap and very difficult for us to bridge that gap. It's interesting, isn't it? Because I think as parents, we can get very involved in our kids' sporting achievements and want them to do as well as possible. And I remember seeing people talk about the importance of sports in a child's life and that actually one of the things we need to really

16:30understand is that it shouldn't be a standalone all about them getting accolades. It's actually about the community. And you have a story in the book about being in an army situation and how is that building that relationship with other people where you know you can trust in them. You know, my daughter, when she's now, she's in a boat rowing. She said the incredible thing about rowing is that there is no slacking off. Everybody has to pull their weight all the time because otherwise everybody fails. And they're in some sports where that's not as important. But it's this recognition of we're all

17:04better together and we need each other and that other stuff that comes with it. What a fantastic life lesson. We never achieve anything worthwhile on our own. It's always going to be done and a team is always going to be done in community and actually a sport can do that. And the other thing is, yeah, accolades and achievements, they're so hollow and they just don't lead to peace or fulfillment or joy. You'll get, you know, maybe you'll get a fleeting happiness

17:35if you win a gold medal, maybe. If you take Johnny Wilkinson, you know, he kicked the winning kick at the World Cup in rugby. Extraordinary. And yet he said the happiness never came. Like, I mean, that was the absolute pinnacle. Poor chap. Yeah. It's just heartbreaking. He'd spent every second of every day perfecting his kick. And when he finally, the big stage came, the moment happened and he achieved it. He felt completely flat. And I think, you know, this is just our reward system in play.

18:07We've got to be doing things in community. And certainly we want things to be that are effortful, that things feel so much more meaningful if we've done it together, like Phoebe and her rowing boats. You know, you do that together. It's so exciting. It's part of a team. You're working for each other. You're trusting each other. And yeah, definitely see that so much in the army. I mean, there was so much joy and fulfilment on operational tour in Iraq, which I just wasn't expecting. You know, everyone felt a bit blue. Sounds very weird, doesn't it? Yeah, really weird. Really

18:41weird. Just because you're so dependent upon each other. Yeah, it was amazing. It was just really, really meaningful to be that able to contribute to someone's life and that able to be so dependent upon others as well. And how do you think is a good way to set standards? Because I've written

Setting High Standards

19:01quite a bit about this and it's still one of those areas I find fascinating is like setting high enough standards so that it's something for them to reach towards that will help them grow without making them feel immense pressure so that they're going to crumble. Do you have any tips about that at all? So difficult. So difficult. And again, I think it has to be their standards, not our standards. You know, it has to be meaningful to them. It has to be a standard that they come up with that they think, actually, this is a real stretch for me. And I think it's possible. And I

19:38think it's meaningful and worthwhile. And I'm going to do it with other people. So I think I would check on those three things. And yeah, it, yeah, I think, again, you know, you can say to them, I really, you know, you're really bright. I expect you to get 10 A stars at GCSE or nines as they are now, you know, 3A stars A level. But it's just totally meaningless if it hasn't come from them. So I think, yeah, they have to set the standards. I love that. That's coming through loud and clear. It's this element of sitting side by side with them,

20:11mentoring them rather than telling them what they should do. One of the most powerful ideas in the book is also that emotional regulation is a skill. It's not a personality trait. And that's the ability, I think, to switch between different emotions back to calm instead of getting stuck in it. What does teaching emotional regulation actually look like, you know, parents in everyday life? Yeah, no, again, easier said than done, because goodness me, can teenage emotions be strong? So, again, patience, calm, kind of expecting it to take a long, long time. But I think, yeah,

20:46you're absolutely right. I think the first thing is acceptance. You know, emotions are there. They're neither good, they're neither bad. They're really there to teach us something. And they tend to have a really useful message for us, because if we're feeling anger, it probably means our values have been crossed. And that's great. We really need to know what our values are. If we're feeling sadness, then there's probably a reason for that. Maybe we've been hurt, disappointed, let down. And again, it's really, really good to acknowledge that. So I think, first of all, welcoming emotions, and seeing them as part of the richness of being a human being,

21:19especially in the age of AI. Like, we don't want robots, we want human beings. So yeah, I'd say the first thing is acceptance. I think labeling emotions is quite useful in the moment, and actually having a really rich vocabulary around that is really, really helpful, because then it kind of switches you into something a bit more cognitive. And so that helps you regulate. I think our senses, if the emotions are really overwhelming, having some sort of sensory thing

21:51to help us shift out of that emotion, because it's a bit too much, can be really, really helpful. Like, a favorite smell, or people say, you know, just get some cold water on your hands. Or, so touch is quite good. Get a hug. Hugs are amazing. They're so, like, pluripotent. I love hugs. That can work really well. Sound can really help us switch emotions. So these are kind of things that we can have in a toolbox ready. So if the emotions are a bit more than we feel we can handle, let's go to our senses. Let's go to our support people. So getting that hug, getting someone to

22:27listen to you, just sit with you to help you kind of regulate so you can kind of co-regulate together. That makes a big difference. Another thing that's really, really helpful for emotional regulation is actually going and helping someone. Because the trouble with these big emotions is they really kind of draw us into ourselves. And we become more and more inward looking and can really start to ruminate. And that can be quite a bit of a problematic cycle. Whereas if we can go knock on someone's door and say, oh, can I get you a cup of tea? Would you like any help with your maths

23:00homework? Can I or give your granny a ring or something like that? That's a brilliant way to switch out of, you know, really big emotions. So you want that focus outwards rather than inwards. And then you release some rewarding chemicals as well from helping people. So that's a good thing. And it boosts connection and meaning and meaning in life is super protective as well for mental health. But I would say if you are worried about your child, if, you know, they've got strong

23:32emotions, they're feeling helpless, it's harming them, they can't snap out of it, do get extra help as soon as and get it early as well. Because, you know, there are people who've dedicated their lives to helping us with our mental health is what they get up for in the morning. So, you know, they're there to help. So if you can persuade your child to see someone, talk to someone, then I would say do that early if you're worried. And I think another thing on that, which is kind of important is the main thing is the relationship between the kind of therapeutic helper and the person. So whatever

24:05kind of therapy it is, your child's got to get on with them and feel they trust them and warmth towards them. Yeah, they're not going to talk to somebody if they don't trust them. Absolutely. It's interesting you say that because when my daughter was absolutely losing her mind over our dog that was about to be put down, the thing that snapped her out of it was actually when I turned to her and I said, sweetie, the dog is going to be very upset by you being so upset. And it needs

24:37you to be calm so that it can be released into the afterlife with calm. And as soon as I said that, she said, oh, no, you're right. And it was so amazing because she just completely snapped out of it because now she was doing something for her dog and not for herself. So that absolutely resonated with me when you said that. Totally understand that. You introduced the idea of checking

Body Budget and Emotions

25:01a teen's body budget before assuming there's an emotional crisis. And I actually think that's a really valid thing to do because I'd like you to explain this body budget and how sleep, movement, hydration, everything matters so much to their emotions. Yeah. So How Emotions is Made is this wonderful book by Professor Lisa Feldman Barrett. And this is where the idea comes from. Because actually, if we're massively sleep deprived or even slightly sleep deprived, our ability to, I mean, I am the worst for this. I'm appalling if I'm sleep deprived. I'm

25:36hideous. There's just no point knowing me. I'm just awful. And so, you know, teenagers often have quite disrupted sleep as well. You know, their natural release of melatonin goes later. And so a lot of the time they're quite sleep deprived. And so if I think I'm ancient, you know, mother of teenagers and I can't regulate my emotions if I'm an hour and a half, two hours off, what's ideal for me, what hope to the poor teenagers have? And the same with food as well. Oh my gosh, I'm a feet monster if I'm hungry and I've got low blood sugar. So again, this is just so amplified

26:10in our teenagers whose prefrontal cortex are way off being fully developed, which really would help them regulate. And it's the same with exercise. Exercise is just amazing for our emotional regulation and how we feel. It's so uplifting. Just love it. And so if I haven't exercised, I feel awful. Therefore, if a teenager hasn't exercised, that's again going to be amplified. So I do think let's check our body budget. Let's check, you know, are we just sleep deprived? Are we just really hungry?

26:43Have we not moved for a while? Have we been sitting on a game for a while rather than being up and out and about? And I think the other thing around body budget is kind of connection because we regulate each other quite nicely, you know, especially, you know, a calm adult makes such a difference in someone's life, in a teenager's life or a calm friend or a warm friend that we really trust. That makes such a difference to our ability to regulate. So if we've been detached from our friends for whatever reason, say at the end of term, we've been on holiday for a couple of weeks,

27:14so we haven't seen our lovely school friends for a couple of weeks, that can be another reason that we're feeling really wobbly emotionally. And it's not that there's anything wrong, that there's a mental health crisis. It's just that, you know, our body budget's out of whack and our brain's going, hey, I need a bit of connection here. I need a bit of sleep. Please give me some food or some exercise. So I think that's really useful. It's very useful because actually it gives us parents a role that's very clear. So we can actually say to our kids, okay, let's check through these body budget things and see whether there's something missing rather than look at an amorphous

27:48massive emotions and not really, because sometimes they can't explain why they're upset. And actually my daughter, if she gets hungry, she just shuts down. It's like you can see her going zzzz and she shuts down. And I have to say to her, hey, hey, do you think you might be hungry? Because she's turned into a zombie. So sometimes it does help for us to help because after a while they start to notice, then they become more capable of doing that themselves. And in terms of connecting with our kids ourselves, so it's important that they have their connections with their friends. And, you know, whenever I talk about screen time, I always say the things to think about before they're

28:23getting all their screen time is, are they making friends? Are they getting connections? Are they physically active? Are they getting enough sleep? Are they learning things to their hobby? Things like that rather than just focusing on stopping them from being on their screens. Those other things are really important. But what are the simple daily things parents can be doing to strengthen

Strengthening Emotional Connection

28:42our emotional connection with teens who might seem distant or, you know, not very interested? Do you have any helpful tips for us on that? Oh, I think often teens seem more distant than they actually are. And I think, you know, they do want us to be there and it might not look like it. But I think one thing I read that was really interesting is always seem really pleased to see them, like genuinely, because we are pleased to see them. Like, yes, they're all kids. And, you know, no matter how horrible they've been, we still love them more than anything in the world.

29:15And so, you know, we can genuinely be pleased to see them. And that makes a difference. I think every human wants to be listened to. And so the more we can listen and kind of listen in a way that tells them, I believe in you, I love you, I want the best for you. And in like a super open, warm, non-judgmental way, I think that makes such a difference. And, you know, if they don't give you the answers, no problem, you try another time, you know, but just give them that opportunity to talk. And when they do talk, it's like, oh, hallelujah, they're talking. Really try and let them talk as

29:50much as possible and ask as open, as positive, as warm questions as we possibly can, which is hard, because we're all stretched, aren't we, as parents? So I think, yeah. And when they're talking about the thing that's really interesting to them, sometimes you're really, really, really not interested. Not at all. You need to take an interest. If it's something that really matters to them, because the thing is, if we take an interest in the things that really matter to them, then they will tell us the stuff

30:20that matters to them that's even harder. Isn't it true? It's so true. It's so true. How many times have I sat there and thought, I've got to talk about this? Yeah. It's like Manchester United Football Club is not really doing it for me, but I really want to know because it matters to you. So it really needs to matter to me. And the fact that I'm about to miss my Ocado checkout and we've got no food for tomorrow, it's just going to have to wait. So you say resilience comes from flexibility, not toughness. What does a truly resilient teenager

30:54look like in real life? I think, yeah, this flexibility is around being able to welcome and embrace whatever kind of life throws at you. And really accepting that sometimes when times are tough, you're going to feel some really strong emotions about that. And maybe it will be profound disappointment because you're you didn't get the grades you wanted. And it's devastating or profound sadness because you've just split up with your boyfriend or girlfriend or profound anger because someone's absolutely

31:28trampled on your values. Like your best friends just lied to you and truthfulness matters so, so much to you. And it's kind of accepting these bad times and accepting them as being part of a human life and having the kind of flexibility to say, yeah, I should be angry about that. I should be sad about that. I should be disappointed. Of course I am. And I accept that. And now I've kind of had enough of being disappointed. So I'm going to listen to some great music. I'm going to go and help granny in the garden. I'm going to, you know, give my dog a hug because my dog's feeling pretty rotten at the

32:03moment as well, like you were saying earlier. So I think it's very much this kind of, yeah, life is going to chuck you some really awful things and it's going to feel rubbish. And there's no two ways about that. And there's no point being like, oh, it doesn't matter that my boyfriend's just dumped me. No big deal. It's a really big deal. It's a really big deal. You've been together for a couple of years and teenage love is so intense. So actually, yeah, just accept those emotions and have ways of pulling yourself out of those emotions when you're ready and when it's the right time. So you don't

32:38get too sucked into it. So yeah, I think using those emotional regulation techniques is really, really helpful. And actually, I think one of the biggest things for resilience actually is your support network. You know, if your parents are there for you and they're not pushing it, but they're like, oh, would you like a cup of tea? Or, you know, really please see you. You're always there for a hug or to pick you up when you need it. That makes a big difference. Having a lovely group of friends around you to kind of support you through those hard times. That makes such a difference. So that

33:10would be how I would look at resilience. So in a nutshell, it's basically we can't help bad things happening. They are going to happen. And rather than trying to stop them from happening and ignore them or whatever, it's actually being able to cope with the discomfort of it happening and then be able to find ways to get back to starting again and having another go. And yeah. And you say that kindness is a really powerful resilience tool for teenagers. How can we explain that to

33:42our kids in a way that makes sense to them? Yeah. Oh, it's hard, isn't it? Yeah. If your kids are really geeky and they love science, you could definitely say about the rewarding chemicals that they'll get from kindness. You can talk to them about it, drawing them out of themselves. You can talk to them about kind of feeling valuable in the world. Like one of our great friends, this amazing guy called Professor Matthew Lee, who was the Director of Empirical Research at the Human Flourishing Programme at Harvard. He said, we've got to see our love make a difference in the world in order to thrive and

34:15flourish. It's such a beautiful quote. And what was even more extraordinary, they've been doing the global flourishing study. It's so 220,000 respondents, 64% of the world's population is represented in the sample. And I was just asking him, we were driving back from the airport. I was like, Matt, Matt, what's the most interesting thing that's come out of this global flourishing study? He said, well, Katie, what for me, it's that giving love and care seems to be about three to four

34:47times more predictive of overall flourishing than receiving love and care. I nearly crashed my cart. Unbelievable. Unbelievable. And so he's just got a paper out on that. And so this is three years into the study. That was only the US sample, but it does seem to be heading in that direction. And when you add everything together, like the importance of meaning and purpose for mental health, the importance of these kind of rewarding brain chemicals. And it's really the combination of chemicals that are being released in your brain that leads to kind of the joy and fulfillment and actually giving love

35:22and care to others releases a really beautiful, rich combination of chemicals that feels fantastic and is much more long lasting and fulfilling. And also the fact that you're thinking outside yourself. So you're not going into this spiral where you're dragging yourself down with rumination and yeah, and kind of being stuck in these emotions that aren't that helpful, you're kind of getting out of those. So it's this combination that makes giving love and care and being kind, being that loving person, even when it's hard, and so, so potent for our mental health and happiness.

35:55It's interesting, isn't it? Because when I look at girls, they do a lot of kind of helping their friends. That's actually quite a common thing, isn't it? Yeah, it's lovely. How can boys be encouraged to do this? What does that look like, the giving love and care for boys? Oh my gosh, so hard. Because like girls, they're so, you know, it's so natural for a girl to go and give another girl a hug or make her a cup of tea or, you know, make her a beautiful, like, little get well soon parcel, a kind of pamper gift, stuff like that. Whereas for boys, it's not really,

36:28it's not so much part of the culture. But I think, you know, inviting someone to play cricket with you, or if you're going out to kick a ball around in the park, inviting that kid who's not being invited. Doing some sort of social action works really well for boys, like setting up a little social enterprise where you do something that you're really passionate about. So maybe you're absolutely mad about the fact that your local river's really polluted and it's killing all the fish and it's making the ducks sick. And so you go and you get a team together and you go lobby that factory to change their practices.

37:03That can be quite good for boys as well. So a bit of social action can be really good. But yeah, it is harder because culturally it's different. Girls, when we observe them in groups, certainly here, you know, our secondary school, you see them naturally being much more nurturing. Whereas the boys, there's still a huge amount of banter, which is very, very funny and they enjoy it. And it's kind of fine, but it's a very different way of interacting, even in a kind of co-ed school. So, or just giving someone a hand with their maths homework, if you're good at that.

37:37Yes. Many parents feel guilty that they're getting things wrong. Your book is all about flourishing and it's about resilience. So what would you say to overwhelmed parents who are thinking, oh, I'm just getting things wrong? What would you say to them that might be of most help? I think definitely you're doing much better than you think you are. Parenting is so hard. It's so, so hard. I'm totally there with you. I feel wracked with guilt the entire time for not being, well, not even being a decent parent, let alone a perfect parent. I mean, it's just not happening. But I think, you know, teenagers, they're super

38:10resilient. They really, really are. And they're designed to be resilient. And actually, you don't want to be perfect because if you never get cross, never get stressed, never disappointed with them, never say the wrong thing to them, they're going to really struggle through life when their boss says absolutely the wrong thing to them. You know, a teammate at work is utterly horrific to them. You've got people, a girlfriend, absolutely losing it with them. They won't be able to cope with that. So actually, you know, when you get it wrong, apologize.

38:42Choice, that's really, really powerful. Repair, that's really, really powerful. And just move on. But not worrying about that is much easier said than done. And if any of our listeners have figured out how to do that, please, please let me know as well. Well, you know, one of the great things, one of the great things my daughters have said to me is that when I get things wrong all the time, I actually give them permission to get things wrong too. And they say that's such a relief that they've got an adult in their

39:12life who they respect. I'm doing fine. I'm doing fine. I'm not doing great. And I'm not doing awful. I'm just, I'm getting through it. And I'm cheery and I enjoy my life and I'm enjoying being with them. And that gives them faith that actually this isn't that bad and it's okay when they make mistakes, they can fix things too. So actually, I think that's one of the greatest things, isn't it? To be able to, I'm just like, oh, you're so lucky you've got a parent who gets things wrong so much because I'm so kind to you. I do want that. I'm just giving you so much permission to get it wrong yourself. I love

39:44that. That's so encouraging. And finally, there's one message you would like parents who are listening today to take away from your book. Any other tips or things that I might have missed? Oh, it's never too late. We're all struggling. Nobody is finding parenting easy. So reach out to your friends. Just know you're doing the best that you can. And that is good enough. It really, really is good enough. You're doing better than you think you are. And yeah, just let your friends support you. Be honest about what you're struggling with. We're all

40:18struggling together. We're all struggling together. And it matters. And might I add, you're a working mum. You have written this book and you compete in triathlons. You represented GB in sports. So you're not giving up yourself just to be a mother. And that's fine. In fact, it's healthy because I think everything I've read has said that actually it helps kids to see their parents doing well because then you have more in the tank. Is that what you found in the flourishing book? That's the question.

40:50I really, really hope so. For me, I have rip-roaring ADHD. And so not to have a creative outlet, not to have some serious exercise going on is not going to be serving anyone. I'm hopeless. If I'm not working really hard on a project, then I tend to ruminate. And if I'm not exercising, I'm not worth knowing. And so unfortunately or fortunately, I do need to be having a project, exercising,

41:20working hard in order to be at my best for my children when I'm there. I'm not sure I'm actually at the very best at all. But I think I'm better doing these things than not doing these things. It's just the way my brain's wired. But I think that's a really important lesson. I love that lesson. And I love that message because I think a lot of parents think that by pursuing their own interests and doing things that take them away from being with their kids, that's a bad thing. And parents are spending more and more time with their children nowadays. And that doesn't necessarily translate into better parenting

41:51because you're giving up on who you are and you're not setting an example to your kids of how you can be a person in the world as well as a parent. So I'm all for what you're doing. I think you're amazing. And I'm so grateful you joined us today. Thank you so much. If people know, I'm going to put the link to the book in my podcast notes. And if people want to get in contact with you, what's the best way to do that? Oh, I'd love you to connect on LinkedIn. That's probably the only social media I'm remotely active on. But yeah, yeah, I really ought to get on to some other things.

42:24No, I'd absolutely love to hear from you. Please, please do connect on LinkedIn and I'll try and get back to you. And we'd love to hear your stories. We'd love to hear your advice and yeah, how you're finding life as a parent of teens or tweens. Fantastic. Thank you so much, Katie. If you found this useful right now, send it to one person who might benefit. And I'm sure that's a lot of people that you probably know. If you'd like to get more information, I will be doing a write-up with

42:55a lot of the notes and things on my Substack, which is teenagersuntangled.substack.com. And what I tend to do is for people who are paid subscribers, which you don't need to be, but I'll give you a printout as well, which can give you some top tips that you can just have by you to help you. If you just want to get hold of me, it's teenagersuntangledatgmail.com. And I've got a website, which is teenagersuntangled.com. I'm on all the socials. Not enough, but I am. And it's been great to have you, Katie. Thank you so much. That's it. So joyful. Massive thanks. Massive thanks. Bye.

43:26Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye.

43:29Bye.