The Hidden Problem of Teen Gambling — and What Parents Can Do

0:00Hello and welcome to Teenagers Untangle, the audio hug for parents going through the tween and teen years. I'm Rachel Richards, journalist, mother of two teenagers and two bonus daughters. Now, teen gambling has become alarmingly commonplace, according to the latest report from Common Sense Media. They say half of boys aged 16 to 17 have reported gambling in the past year, more than are using alcohol, nicotine or marijuana. And they warned that we're at a pivotal moment for boys' well-being. And we can either let gambling become normalized during a critical

0:33period of teenage development, or we can act now. So what's changed? And with me to unpack what's going on is Dr. Michelle Chung, a clinical psychologist who says the effects are already visible with families reporting rising conflicts around money, secrecy and online behavior. Michelle, thank you so much. Hi, thank you so much for having me. Now, parents worry about social media and gaming a lot, but we're not really talking a lot about gambling. Why do you think that is? You know, I think that a lot of parents, they don't realize that gaming is really what they call

1:09an on-board or an on-ramp for some of these gambling behaviors. And primarily, we'll see a lot of teenage boys and young adult boys or men who are getting really into the gambling behaviors. But I want to just state that we're not excluding the females here. You know, I have seen this also in some teenagers, girls and young women. But what I will say is that when a lot of these video games

1:40are presenting things like loot boxes, mystery boxes, what they're actually doing is priming the teenage brain to get used to these very insidious, that seem very subtle behaviors, but then translate very easily to online gambling. Fascinating. So it's not really happening in casinos or the card tables so much. And it's actually inside boys' favorite games. This is what you're saying.

2:11When we were younger, if you wanted to gamble, you had to go to the casinos. You had to call a bookie. You know, there's so many barriers before getting to that point where you're spending the money or putting the bets out there. Nowadays, it's just, it's on your phones. It's in your pockets. It's on your iPads. The accessibility is so, it's, it's right there. And it's so instant that it really, I think

2:42this is a part of what's making it such a rising concern. It's so interesting, isn't it? Because when I talked about alcohol, one of the key things they said was, well, you know, the parents are drinking alcohol. It's much more likely that the child is going to drink alcohol because they have access to it. And I think a lot of parents would be thinking, well, I don't bet it's going to be fine. But of course, if it's actually that easy to access and it's coming in via a route where they're not even seeing it, that's so much harder to monitor. And I think social media feeds use algorithmic recommendations. Am I right?

3:16They absolutely do. The algorithm is what is driving pretty much everything that you're seeing on your screens and on your social media accounts. And frankly, I don't think you can watch a sports game without an online sports gambling advertisement. Even if you're just looking up stats and numbers on your phone, inevitably, you're going to see another online gambling ad. On top of that, there's celebrities that are also doing this. You might have seen or heard about

3:48how the singer Drake, I think he put down, was it a $2 million bet one time? And it was streamed on social media. Everyone was talking about it. Everyone saw it. And how many of our younger kids idolize these celebrities? Yeah. Yeah. It's going to have an impact. And it's so interesting because one of the reasons that this caught my eye was I was looking at, in the UK, the Times Rich List, which is the list that comes out every year. And then there's also one looking at who's paid the most tax. And the people who'd paid

4:24the most tax, in that top 10, I believe, there were two people who were involved in betting, who were running betting companies. And I thought, wow, look at that. I mean, they're paying that much tax. I mean, great for the tax coppers, but it tells you everything about what's happening behind the scenes. There you go. And to what extent are there sort of friendship groups and influence? Is it all to do with online? So science shows that, especially at this age group, the peer group, if more of your peers are

4:58actually engaging in this type of behavior, you are more likely to also follow and to do the same. And some of the research is even pointing to the fact that this is a stronger influence than even if the parents participate in the gambling acts. Interesting. And to what extent do you think this impacts on school, on relationships? Are we seeing any through flow from this? So what we are seeing is that when you are really into the gambling behaviors, it can absolutely take

5:38over everything. This becomes your strongest dopamine hit. Now, sure, there's sometimes this is this is a little bit of social fuel here, social grease, where, you know, you might be able to talk about, oh, look at this parlay that I just did, or I just won 200 bucks and I just spent, you know, 20. There's a way in which I think there's a social flex and a way that this does bring people together. Again, that's where the peer group is so incredibly important and such an influence.

6:12But at the same time, it does take away from so many other things. A lot of times, you know, you'll see people constantly checking their phones because they're looking at what's happening on their last bet that they just made. How much money did they just accumulate in their accounts? You know, there's a way in which it pulls you in and it pulls for your attention and it does create more isolation in the end, especially the teenagers and the young adults that have actual problems

6:50with gambling behaviors. You will see that it does really isolate them from their friends. Their friends no longer want to engage with somebody that's only talking about gambling, right? They don't want to lend money to a friend that is going to just put it away and then not pay it back. And so there's a way in which it does really isolate the kids from some of their social groups. And

7:23I mean, frankly, who wants to be the kid who's known to have a gambling problem, right? No, no, no, no, I'm not a problem. But I think a lot of kids think, well, it won't be me. And there are a percentage who can engage presumably in gambling and it not be too much of a problem because I suppose they look around themselves and some people do seem to do it without any worry. What would make gambling a problem for a teenage brain when it isn't a problem for some others?

7:54You're absolutely right. If you had 10 teenagers that are doing sports betting or online gambling, maybe eight of them will be okay. But there will be about two of them, this is what the statistics are showing, that may develop addictive gambling habits. Now, the problem here for us as parents is that we don't know where your kid's wage falls. But there absolutely are vulnerability factors that we will know for sure. For example, the ADHD wired brain tends to chase dopamine hits, right? There is

8:33an increase in impulsive behaviors. Maybe there's a little bit of a lack of these concrete executive functioning skills that we need in our kids to be able to say, I'm only going to spend $10 here. You know, once I hit the 10, I'm going to regulate and pull myself back. Kids with ADHD wired brains have a little bit more difficulty controlling some of those behaviors. And so there is a vulnerability factor

9:05there for those kids who have that type of brain wiring, for sure. And you've mentioned some of the things that are being used in games. There's like loot boxes, fantasy leagues, gaming mechanics, like micro betting. What are these things? Do you have any sort of information to help parents understand what it is we're talking about? Yes. So what I have realized is that these things will evolve and they'll just keep coming out. So whether it's a loop box or a mystery box, the main thing that you want to look for is something called

9:41a variable ratio schedule, which means you're not sure what you're going to win, but once in a while, you're going to win something good. So anything that follows that pattern is exactly what primes the brain and the behaviors to get more and more into the gambling habit. Now you have to remember, our brains are wired for familiarity. The more and more we get exposed to that type of variable ratio

10:13behaviors, the more and more we think that's normal. The more and more we detach any sort of fear, looking at it as this is suspicious behavior, the more and more you do it, our guards are down around that type of behavior. Yeah, that's really interesting. And of course, what it makes me think about is the way that social media has been set up because the entire thing is, for example, on Instagram, what I read was that, you know, this pull down mechanism is like a slot machine. And

10:44actually, if you post something, they will hold back the likes and then they'll dump a whole load on you in order to ramp up that feeling of excitement. So they were already using those sorts of gamified things in social media. So presumably, these teenage brains will be primed for that anyway. Yes, I think this is a huge factor. It is priming our brains and shaping our brains. And parents will assume that age limits will protect their kids. I mean, we know that with social media it doesn't. But in terms of gambling, surely there are things in place that would stop our children

11:20from accessing some of these betting platforms. Is that is that sufficient? Do we have those in place? So many families will come to me and ask that same exact question. How are my kids even getting on these sites? Right? A lot of them say you have to be 18 and older in order to get in.

11:42With teenagers, especially where there is a will, there is a way. And what I am finding that a lot of them do is they're not looking for proof. They're not saying, send me your license or a picture of your passport. What they're just saying is, put in your birthday.

12:03Yeah, like all the other ones. They don't care. Right. That's really hard. That's really not enough at all. And what are teens misunderstanding about the odds and the reality of winning? It's really funny because when I talk to these teens and these young adults that have developed some of these more addictive behaviors, what they'll say to me is, well, I, there's a partial, part of it is luck. They are aware of that. But then they'll also say a part of it is skill. And I have that skill.

12:35And I think that's where, when you start conflating this, I need, I have the skill with, I also can get lucky. That is when you have, again, the variable ratio, right? Once in a while, you're going to hit it. Interesting. Yeah. Other times you're going to lose it. But either way, you never know when that's going to happen. But then on top of that, you're thinking, but I'm better than most people at this. And so you keep just going at it again and again and again. You know, a lot of times these kids

13:10don't have the awareness to really understand the probability of how this, how this goes, right? You know, there's that saying, the house always wins. Yes. The house always wins. It is true. Always. And sometimes they'll even say to me, it doesn't matter if I'm not losing too much money. You know, they're okay with it. As long as they're not losing too much money, they're like, I have the skill and luck is on my side.

13:44I look at this and I think, well, where is this money coming from? To start with, because I kept my kids poor so that they couldn't go out and, you know, use drugs or whatever. And I just said, this is the money for you to buy lovely clothes and things like that. And once it's gone, it's gone. What are you seeing? Where is this money coming from? It's becoming more and more increasingly difficult to track where our kids are spending money and how they are spending money. A lot of times it could be, I'm not using the lunch money that you gave me.

14:17Instead, I'm going to save it and use it for this. They borrow money from friends. You know, that's a big thing that does happen. And then the other way that we're really seeing it is on systems like, I don't know if they have this in the UK, but they have something in the US called Venmo. Yeah. Yes. Yes. Okay. So Venmo is the perfect platform to really not know what's happening, right? Because you can keep money in Venmo and then from there, it just exchanges

14:53hands very easily. And we don't know if your kid is giving a certain amount of money to his friend, Bob, you don't really know what that money is for, right? And frankly, I think a lot of parents don't track every $20 that their kid is spending. It's a very big task for a lot of parents to track and look at every single, you know, $5. No, and it's not good for your relationship either. Exactly. Exactly. And so I think a lot of parents aren't watching every dime that their child

15:30is spending. And the other way that I also see it is, especially in college kids, if we are seeing, you know, a lot of times kids go off to school, the parents give them an emergency credit card, right? That in case something happens, this is what you might use. Now that emergency credit card becomes very ambiguous in terms of what's an emergency. And you will start to

16:00see, you know, a lot of kids use those cards too. How interesting. And the last thing I just want to bring up is a lot of kids get gift cards from grandma, from their aunts and uncles, right? It'll be like a Visa gift card or, you know, a gift card for a video game or whatever it might be. A lot of times those are hard to track too. And they are being used on a lot of these sites. So if it's hard to track, how does a parent have any idea whether their child's gambling,

16:38whether they should be on top of this? What should they be doing? Things to really look out for are real fixation and almost like an obsession with, say, for example, certain sports, right? That's where the sports betting really can happen. Or if they're constantly looking at their phone and then they're having these big reactions or they finish a game and then

17:09all of a sudden they're really down in the dumps, you know, there's ways in which if you start to see patterns and correlations of mood shifts that are pretty extreme. As a parent, you're kind of watching this and you're thinking, I didn't know they would care that much about that game. Why are they obsessively checking their phone all the time and then having these big reactions of these like, yes, or or like being really sad after looking at their phone? That is definitely something that

17:41a lot of parents in retrospect will see and say, oh, those were some of the signs that I might have missed initially. Yes. And then the money charges that sometimes seem a little funny. That's always a telltale sign. And I tell the parents that I work with, if you're asking these questions, then you're early enough to make a difference. And so just really start digging if you're starting to question. And if a parent suspects gambling, what's the first conversation

18:12they should be having? The biggest thing that you want to do is to approach your kid with curiosity. You know, you don't want to start off with, are you gambling? Because you will just shut them down right away. And as we know, you know, we're all here talking about teenagers, right? Teenagers are in a developmental stage where they want to be independent and they tend to, they're trying out more autonomy right now, but they don't really know how to do it quite yet.

18:45And so it's, you have this, and you know, I don't want to be alarmist here, but you do have a small little window of shutting them down or having them open up a little bit more, right? Or going into their room and just retreating. So you really want to just approach this with like, hey, so tell me, you know, what, what have we been spending our money on recently? You know, do you have any goals that you want to save your money for? You know, find these kind of backdoor curiosity openings

19:19to start some of these conversations and see where, you know, where they're going. I think one of the, the biggest things that a parent needs to do is when it comes to anything on this, on the screens, but also specifically for online gambling, you do want to teach your kids media literacy about it. You know, what are these games doing to your brain? How are they making you feel? Right? And,

19:51and what are these game makers in the end trying to do? You know, they're, they're trying to manipulate you. They're trying to hook you into their games by doing this, this, and that, you know, do you ever notice yourself feeling more and more hooked? Um, and, and just really educating your kids about what this is doing to their brains? Why are they doing it? How are they doing it? Um, and I just want to put out there too, it's not just about sports betting or loot boxes or mystery boxes. There's also these

20:28things called prediction markets. Have you heard about these? Well, I've been hearing about that. They're a really big thing now. Yes. Go ahead. Explain them. Yes. So these prediction markets are, there's, there's a few big websites that do it. One is called Polymarket. And I think there's a, uh, a few others that are out there, but they will bet on everything and anything you can think of. It was like, who would be the next Pope, you know, before the, before the new Pope was, was elected? Or how many times

21:01will Donald Trump say this word in his next speech? I saw one on how many people are predicting that Jesus Christ will come back before the year 2027, you know, something like that, everything and anything. And you can bet on it. And so this goes to show you how generalized this betting behavior can really become and how quickly that slippery slope is for our kids. I remember talking about vaping and realizing that one of the really good ways of talking to

21:34your child is to say, those people are trying to get you addicted now so that later on you're just a constant stream of income for them. And then I was talking to David Jager and he said, actually, an even better way is to say, I think the other kids don't understand this. Don't you? Because, because teenagers are quite pro-social. So if they have the opportunity to help other people to understand something, it's even better. And, and that, that piece of, again, curiosity,

22:05not accusing, right? And then to open that conversation about media literacy. And in fact, I think sometimes the back door way, which is a lot of times what we need to do with teenagers is to actually sit and play the game with them. Oh, I love that. Yes, of course. Yes. And, and for you to express your experience while you're playing the game, like, oh, wow, like this is making me even more excited to play this game. Like, oh my goodness, like I can totally feel

22:36myself getting pulled in right now. Like these mystery boxes. Oh, like, oh, like it makes me almost want to do it again tomorrow to see if I'll get something better, you know, and just being able to share your own experience as you're going through it and playing it with them, I think is also a nice way to open the conversation. Yeah. And so you're talking about sort of getting alongside them, mentoring them. Are there any practical boundaries that you think would make a difference that we should be putting in place,

23:08or should we just, you know, softly, softly go in there? Again, because we're acknowledging that not every child who, who does loot boxes or who even does sports gambling once in a while will have a problem. There are some families out here that I understand are going to say, I don't think it's a big deal if my child participates in, in some of these behaviors. In fact, a lot of fathers are the ones who introduce their kids to this type of behavior,

23:38right? You know, I was talking to a lot of families right before the Super Bowl about this. And now the subject's coming up again with, as we're entering March Madness season for basketball, these, the sports gambling in particular is something that is often learned from, from their fathers or their parents. There's, they're seeing these behaviors and, and the parents are explaining to them brackets and how does this work? And, you know, parlays. I mean, it is a lot of

24:09times the entryway for a lot of these kids. And so I do, I do want parents to know, you know, it's, it's the same way that some parents are going to say to their kids, I want you to have a drink with us before you go to college. So you know what it's like versus some parents are going to say, I, you will never drink before the age of one, right? So, so I do want to just acknowledge that every family is going to have different priorities, different values, but there are some things that

24:42are just research backed that, that are, are very important things to, to draw in terms of boundaries with your kids. And I think that is these games or these online gambling sites are pulling you in. And so before the, a certain age, I don't want to prime your brain in, in, in a certain way. Right. And so I do say before the age of 18, I wouldn't even introduce any of these.

25:16Um, now granted the loot boxes and the mystery boxes there, like I said, they're, they're in there in these video games. And so that, that is really about social literacy, but any of these sports gambling sites and these bigger poly markets, you know, whatever it might be just a strict, it's illegal. Let's just put it out there. Yeah. Yeah. Right. And so I do say that that's a good boundary to really keep. I also think it's important that, that parents really look at just

25:48in general, how much time is your kid spending on these screens or on their phone? And I think it is generally a good practice, but also a nice added benefit is that if they're on the screens last, they'll be gambling less, or they'll be doing these loot boxes and things like that less in general, having certain periods of time or activities that are, that are restricted from screens, um, you know, throughout your day, I don't think it's such a bad policy to have in your family to

26:20just say, these are times and periods that you're not allowed to use screens. You're not going to be popular in that moment, but it's okay because, because that is what you need to do to keep your kids safe and their development on track. I have found that my kids, when I have really open conversations with them about, this is what a loving parent does, and this is why I'm doing this and how it makes you feel when you're on the device too much. And then I have conversations with them when they're on the device a lot and say, how's that making you feel? They've become so much more

26:53receptive to me saying, I think that's enough. And, and making sure that they have boundaries. It's really, even now, I mean, mine are now 19 and 17. They're very keen for me to keep boundaries for them because sometimes things, they get stuck. So it's not a bad thing. And it's just having that non-judgmental, shame-free relationship where you say, I think, you know, are you stuck? Should we just give you some space now? Let's not be doing that. You know, I, I tell the families that I work with, I, as, as a functioning adult, sometimes have trouble putting my phone down when I should be.

27:25Yes. Our poor teenagers, they, they don't have the executive functioning skills yet. I mean, they have no chance. No, no. If we think that our child actually has a problem, so we're one of the very unlucky ones where our child now looks like there are some issues. When should a parent think I need professional help here? Yeah. Now, teenagers lie. We all know that. But when you start to see this kind of secretive behavior, if you start to see more and more lying and, you know, think like when you walk into the

28:01room, they're, you know, they all of a sudden put their computer down. You know, you know, there's something going on that they don't want you to know about. Shifts in mood are usually the biggest thing. And I'm not saying a bad day here and there, but they say over a two week span, if you start to see increased irritability, time on, on their screens, or when you tell them to put it away, that they have this reaction that doesn't really meet the act, right? That's something that's

28:35always a little bit of a, of a red flag. And then when you start to see your teenager change in terms of their social appetite, right? Are they isolating more? Are they not talking to their friends as much? That's also a shift that you start to see. Those are really the main things that I would say, if you're starting to see some of these things, why not just consult a professional? Do you think we're at a tipping point with digital gambling and adolescence? Do you think we need

29:07more restrictions? Because you said this isn't legal, and yes, kids are still doing this. Is this something that you genuinely think we should be doing more to control? Or is it something where, as long as people are aware, it's not really such a big problem? I would like some of these video game developers or the gambling fan duels or whatever, these companies, to be held more accountable. Anyone can put in any birth date and get on any of these sites. To me, that doesn't seem like they're trying really hard to keep some of these

29:41younger kids off the sites. I found out this very interesting fact recently, which to me, it kind of blew my mind. But a lot of these video game companies are the same people who make arcade games. You know when you go to an arcade when our kids are younger and you get tickets or points and things like that? So it's the same people that make these arcade games. Those same people are the ones who actually make casino slot machines and game, and then are also the ones that are making all of

30:15these online gambling sites. There is a stream that they are creating to really make sure that these kids are hooked at a young age and then throughout. And so I do think that these companies should be held more accountable to, frankly, protecting our youth.

30:36Michelle, thank you so much for joining us today. It was really, really helpful to go through all of this. Are there any other tips or things you'd really love parents to know or understand about gambling? The biggest thing that I want parents to take home from here is just stay curious about it. And this is one of those situations where just because they're starting down this path, again, doesn't mean that it's going to become a problem. I don't want to be alarmist. And so just to really stay curious about it, continue these

31:07conversations of media literacy with your kids. It's not a one and done type of deal. And so this is just another thing that you want to keep speaking to your children about and having them aware of. And I think the second thing is, as adults, be aware of what we're modeling for our children, too. Because I do think that, again, sometimes parents are doing these behaviors without realizing the

31:37impact that it's having on our kids, especially the young ones. For sure. Personal awareness is the big thing we talk about all the time. It's like monitor ourselves first. Thank you so much for this. If you found this useful, please send it right now to anybody else you know who would benefit. Michelle, how can somebody contact you if they want to? I have a small group practice. It's called In Practice Psychology and a nonprofit called The Modern Approach to Parenting. If you go on either of those websites, you can easily contact me using

32:10the contact page there. Great, great. And I'll put the links in the podcast notes. If you want to contact me, it's teenagersuntangled at gmail.com. And I'm on Substack and I've got a website. You can just click the links. That's it for me. Big hug. Have a great week. Bye bye. Bye bye. Bye bye. Bye bye. Bye bye. Bye bye. Bye bye. Bye bye. Bye bye. Bye bye. Bye bye. Bye bye. Bye bye. Bye bye. Bye bye. Bye bye.

32:43Bye bye. Bye bye. Bye bye. Bye bye. Bye bye. Bye bye. Bye bye. Bye bye. Bye bye. Bye bye. Bye bye.