Don Wilson on the GPU Market's Trillion Dollar Question

State of the AI trade

0:00There are some market stories where you want every detail. Tracy and I have made quite a few podcasts on that basis, but sometimes you've only got 10 minutes and need to know what's moving markets and why. That's the Barclays Brief podcast. Every week, experts from Barclays markets and research get you up to speed on what matters and what to watch next, about the time it takes to grab a coffee. So search Barclays Brief wherever you get your podcasts. Some people treat ChatGPT like some kind of smart search engine, and some use it to get work done. ChatGPT Work is a new way of

0:32working in ChatGPT that can take action across your apps and files, stay with a project for hours if needed, and turn a goal into finished work. It's designed to help you move from a chaotic starting point to a reviewable first version. So all the source materials, briefs, and scattered information that you have to grind through to turn into something useful can just become something useful. Put ChatGPT to work on your most ambitious ideas and projects. Get started at ChatGPT.com by selecting Work Mode, available on Plus and Pro plans. If you listen to financial news,

1:08you know a lot of time is spent thinking about what's next. The next opportunity, the next investment, the next move. But sometimes what matters most is being ready for what you never saw coming. For more than 75 years, Cincinnati Insurance has worked with independent agents to help protect businesses, homes, valuables, and more. Because planning for the future isn't only about knowing what's next. It's about making sure you're ready for what you can't predict. Let Cincinnati Insurance make your bad day better. Find an independent agent at C-I-N-F-I-N dot com.

1:46Bloomberg Audio Studios. Podcasts. Radio. News. Hello and welcome to another episode of the Odd Lots podcast. I'm Joe Weisenthal. And I'm Tracy Alloway. Tracy, we're here in Chicago, second year in a row that we've done a live show here in a great city for us. That's right. We're going to be talking to someone who we spoke with last year, but a lot has changed in 12 months. So this is someone who is trying to

2:21build a market for compute, right? Right. So we're going to be speaking with Don Wilson. He is the founder and CEO of DRW. He is really at the forefront of this effort to build futures markets for things like GPUs and so forth. So check out the conversation. We talked to you, Don, basically exactly a year ago, last time we were here, we talked about things like GPU futures. But in like AI time, it might as well have been 10 years ago because so much has changed. We want to talk GPU market structure, all that stuff. The last couple of days have actually

2:53been kind of interesting in the AI trade world. Everyone's watching CoreWeave. Everyone's watching CoreWeave bonds. There was an anthropic investor meeting before the IPO, a little jitters. Maybe their revenue only grew up, whatever, 50% versus 51%. I don't know the exact numbers. Give us your read right now. Is there a little slowdown happening in AI? Are we shifting into a lower gear? Is there anything in the trajectory that's changed? Any new thing that's growing this fast is not going to grow

3:27at a constant rate. It's not going to grow at a, you know, the first derivative isn't going to be constant. The second derivative isn't going to be constant. So to me, this is just kind of expected volatility. I don't know. Maybe people went on vacation in August so they didn't consume as many anthropic tokens. But you're not reading anything more into it than that. I'm not. Okay. Wait, so with something like CoreWeave, a big part of what you're doing with compute exchange and silicon data

3:58is this idea that if you create a market for compute, then cloud companies can hedge their future revenue streams and the cost of capital can come down. In a week like this, when you see the yield on a CoreWeave bond at 15%, what does that tell you? Is the suggestion that, like, well, if compute futures were up and running, all of CoreWeave's problems would be solved? I mean, I do think that it's highlighting the massive need for risk management products. And so, you know, think about if you're a neocloud and, you know, you sign contracts with the most creditworthy

4:36companies in the world, then you're fine, right? But there are a lot of other consumers of GPUs that are not the most creditworthy companies in the world. And if you're a neocloud, you want to be able to sell to them. And so, I think what the market's saying is, if you're selling on-demand compute or you're selling to less creditworthy entities, then your cost of capital is just going to be higher. Now, imagine once GPU futures exist, you can, as a neocloud, buy the GPUs, deploy them in your data center,

5:12sell a strip of GPU futures, and then just sell on-demand compute if you want, or sell, you know, six-month contracts to less creditworthy companies that can post a big percentage of the contract value up front. And the market is going to, you know, reward companies that do that, that basically just have on a giant basis trade heavily. Their cost of capital is going to, is going to be much lower.

GPU futures and regulation

5:43Terry mentioned, okay, the GPU futures don't exist yet. And there's some message from the White House, like national security, et cetera. And he's like, I don't get it. Do you get it? Can you tell us something about why these products don't exist yet? Maybe what the regulatory hesitancy is about the the listing? Yeah. And just remind us what the state is of regulatory. Yeah. So, so right now, there's a comment period that's open. The CFTC extended it. You know, if they don't do anything,

6:16then, then, you know, the futures can get listed November 9th. Now, conveniently, November 9th is after November 3rd. And, and, and so, you know, maybe some people in Washington will be more comfortable with the compute futures launching. And I don't know. I can't, I can't explain what the concern is. I've heard all sorts of different theories. You know, one theory is that some of the indices are not very robust. Yeah, I would, okay. So I'm actually very curious about this, the robustness

6:50of the indices, because a lot of GPUs are sold via bilateral offtake agreements, right? So it's like Anthropic has some deal with SpaceX, right, to use their compute. And we don't really know the price of that. Why should anyone feel confident then, when they look at an index of GPU prices, that like, it actually represents something resembling the state of the market? Here, listen, I think it's buyer beware. Learn about the index that you're trading futures on. You know, Silicon Data, that team has

7:25done an amazing job of collecting massive amounts of data from, you know, and it's focused on on-demand compute from neoclouds. You know, there are a lot of neoclouds. There are very few hyperscalers. So, so their index is focused on neoclouds, of which there are many. And there is a ballot of transparency about on-demand compute. And, you know, they've done a very good job to create an index that,

7:56you know, will be IOSCO compliant. That's the benchmark. Some of the other providers, I don't think, have ever heard the word, the phrase IOSCO compliant. What's IOSCO? Sorry. So, so IOSCO is the, I don't know, it's the kind of group of international regulators that I think in 2013 came up with a best practices approach for indices. Oh, we should do an IOSCO episode one day.

Pricing trajectories and depreciation

8:28Now that you've been working on the futures contract for a while, can you maybe tell us what you've learned about, I guess, the pricing trajectory for GPUs over time? Because this is one of the concerns, right? You can say you're bullish on the compute market overall, but it doesn't necessarily mean that you're bullish on the value of a single GPU. It can depreciate over time. Maybe it gets more efficient and people move on to new things. So that is the trillion dollar question. That is why these futures... I'm glad I asked it.

8:59And that is why these futures need to exist, because, you know, nobody knows what the value of a B200 will be four years from now, five years from now. And, you know, and so by introducing futures contracts that trade, you know, way out, I think initially the CME's futures contracts are going to go out three years. And, you know, as they become more liquid, they'll go out more.

9:32But, you know, that enables people to hedge that. Back in November of, you know, almost a year ago, the price of H100s, the hourly on-demand price, had just been declining, declining, declining. And everybody was saying, why do you need GPU futures? These things just go down. And then, you know, right around Thanksgiving, they turned around and kind of went up and to the right. And what happened,

10:06you know, it was Anthropics' newest model came out, which was a massive step up in usefulness. And all of a sudden, there was a ton of demand for inference. And, you know, more recently, we've seen, you know, looking at B200, B2300, and H100 prices, another surge upward in price. And, and by the way, at the same time that the silicon data token index price has plummeted.

10:38Yeah, it's interesting. And, and so, yeah, I mean, these things are volatile. They can go up, they can go down, and, and a hedging instrument is badly needed. There are some market stories where you want every detail. Tracy and I have made quite a few podcasts

11:09on that basis, but sometimes you've only got 10 minutes and need to know what's moving markets and why. That's the Barclays Brief podcast. Every week, experts from Barclays markets and research get you up to speed on what matters and what to watch next. About the time it takes to grab a coffee. So search Barclays Brief wherever you get your podcasts. Some people treat ChatGPT like some kind of smart search engine, and some use it to get work done. ChatGPT work is a new way of working in ChatGPT that can take action across your apps and files,

11:40stay with a project for hours if needed, and turn a goal into finished work. It's designed to help you move from a chaotic starting point to a reviewable first version. So all the source materials, briefs, and scattered information that you have to grind through to turn into something useful can just become something useful. Put ChatGPT to work on your most ambitious ideas and projects. Get started at ChatGPT.com by selecting Work Mode. Available on Plus and Pro Plans.

12:10This is Robert Smith from Business History. If you're listening to this, there's a good chance you're a small business owner. And like every small business owner, you started with a dream to do what you love and watch it grow. What you probably didn't dream about? Keeping up with cyber threats. That's where MasterCard can help with access to tools that help identify cyber threats to better protect your business. Building your dream business? Priceless. For cybersecurity in a changing world, there's MasterCard.

12:37Learn more at MasterCard.com slash small business. This is Alexis Christoffers for Bloomberg Surveillance. AI is everywhere. Outcomes are not. Not because AI doesn't work, but because AI hasn't reached the workflows yet. The campaigns, the launches, the quarterly planning, those workflows are still run by humans alone. AI is making individuals faster, but it's not making businesses more productive. That's the gap Asana is built to close. Asana is the operating system for human agent teams,

13:07your easy button for AI productivity across every team. Ready-to-go AI teammates pre-built for marketing, ops, and IT. No prompt engineering, no setup. They show up where the work is happening, already onboarded in your workflows, ready to deliver. And the more they work with your team, the smarter they get. With Asana, your whole company can work on the same plan towards the same goal, whether you're a team of 10 or 10,000. Asana, where humans and agents workflow together. Try it at asana.com.

13:37That's A-S-A-N-A dot com. Just as a hypothetical, let's say GPUs depreciate over time and there's more demand, but in general, the value goes down, which is something we've seen in a lot of commodity markets, right? In that case, does having a market where you're able to hedge your future GPU revenue streams, does that just enable people to, I guess, borrow more and overbuild versus genuinely reduce risk?

14:07You're just allowing people to borrow against the same risk, ostensibly with a hedge, but the underlying isn't actually moving in your favor. Does that make sense? No. I mean, here, the reason it doesn't make sense is that for a futures contract to exist, there has to be a willing buyer and a willing seller, right? So your hypothesis would work if they could just go and sell futures contracts at some price that was made up, maybe too high, and there was kind of infinite demand for that. Okay, well, sure, but there has to be a rational buyer on the other side.

14:42And so I think what we'll see is that those forward contracts are going to be, are in fact, going to be at lower prices just because there's so much hedging demand to sell in the forward space. And there will need to be, you know, investors who want to generate a return by buying those futures contracts. What is the, if we cast out a few years, what is the sort of ecosystem of clouds and inference inference providers that need to exist for this to be a rich market? Because like, if the future of AI

15:20is just, let's say the future of AI were just anthropic and open AI, and the future of cloud were just meta, alphabet, and Amazon, there wouldn't need to be a futures market. It would just be all bilateral agreements, offtake agreements, etc. Yep. So how much like, how fat of a tail of non-open AI and anthropic inference do we need such that this is a useful vault market that cannot just be solved by bilateral agreements? Well, I mean, I think we're already there. I mean, look at the growing use of

15:55open source models. I mean, it's exploded. And you're seeing companies with, you know, many billion dollar valuations that have just been created to put open source models on GPUs and sell the tokens. Right. You know, like fireworks and together. And, and so we already have a really rich ecosystem. Is it rich enough yet? For sure. Okay, interesting. Yeah.

Token futures and crack spreads

16:24Should we talk about perpetuals? Yeah. Can I ask you on GPU futures? So one of the other things that people say, the skeptics, is they say GPU, GPU or compute is not homogenous enough for a futures market. And there's a few different things. They say like, there is different software arrays, and that could significantly change the value. There's also the fact that there's like,

16:54at least in the inference part of AI, there's a lot of other players who want AMD and Cerberus and Etched and all these other Tranium and whatever the Microsoft one was and TPUs, et cetera. And this is just way too diverse of a market to really be captured in an index. How confident are you that either the market is going to be homogenous enough for futures, or that there will be enough sophistication about the sort of basis between the H100 index versus something similar, such that this

17:29market could serve a diverse provider base? Yeah. I mean, first of all, the amount of money going into, you know, just H100s or just B200s is large enough to support a single futures market. Now, in addition to that, these other things are very correlated. And so, you know, people will be able to trade a basis on these things versus whatever it is. And, you know, maybe, obviously, you know,

17:59these are going to be off of kind of the baseline standard configuration, whatever. And so maybe somebody's planning on doing a training run and they need a giant cluster. Well, that's going to bear a premium, of course. But, you know, if the demand for inference goes up massively, then guess what? That training run is also going to be more expensive. So it's just a basis between the things. That's one thing. The other thing is that eventually, and, you know, we may be getting close,

18:31you'll be able to trade futures contracts on the output, on the tokens themselves. Oh, token futures. Token futures. Okay. And so, you know, again, there's, of course, a diverse number of tokens and people will put up the same objections. But I think that over time, that's going to be possible. And by the way, that will introduce a really interesting possibility, which is now think about if you go and rent GPUs, you pay the on-demand price, and then you load up an open source model and you start

19:08selling tokens through open router or something, right? Well, can you do that profitably or not? Well, that profit margin that you can generate is akin to, you know, what an oil refinery does, right? And, or what a soybean crush plant does. And, you know. So we're going to have a crack spread. So, so in oil, we call it a crack spread. In soybeans, we call it a crush spread. So you hear, you heard it here first. At DRW, we call this the crunch spread. That's great.

19:45Wait, is this token futures or something you're actively working on, it sounds like? Yes. Okay. What sort of stage would you say you're at? I mean, it's, you know, it's the thought stage, but, but, but, but, I mean, here, to, to be fair, that the, you know, the silicon data token index, you know, is providing some, some pretty interesting data and is widely discussed. So, you know, that's a start. And so just going back to GPU futures for a second. So every time a new

20:17chip comes out, that needs to be a separate contract and a new pool of liquidity. Is that right? Is that how you're thinking of it? Correct. Okay. And how do you, I mean, it seems kind of challenging. You have to like keep up with the technological cycle, which is very rapid. It's rapid, but not that rapid. Right. And, and you're probably not going to launch a futures contract for every single one. You're going to launch futures contracts for the ones that are the major ones. And, you know, but that's okay. I mean, there are different, you know, think about

20:50how many electricity contracts there are for every little node. And I mean, you know, thousands of them. There's a lot of oil contracts too. We just usually only talk about two of them. That's right. Typically. Yep. Just out of curiosity, and this is actually sort of separate from the futures conversation, but I guess like as a technologist with multiple businesses, et cetera, are you, how is saleable is NVIDIA's dominance in the bit? Like what's your read on that? Because this is a constant question, whether any of these other chip makers can actually eat into

21:23NVIDIA's position. What's your take there? Sure. I think that the space is going to continue to grow and I can't, it's unlikely that NVIDIA will be able to maintain the market share that they have maintained, but I'm pretty confident that NVIDIA is, that NVIDIA will continue to grow as a company. Some people treat ChatGPT like some kind of smart search engine, and some use it to get

22:05work done. ChatGPT work is a new way of working in ChatGPT that can take action across your apps and files, stay with a project for hours if needed, and turn a goal into finished work. It's designed to help you move from a chaotic starting point to a reviewable first version. So all the source materials, briefs, and scattered information that you have to grind through to turn into something useful can just become something useful. Put ChatGPT to work on your most ambitious ideas and projects. Get started at ChatGPT.com by selecting work mode, available on plus and pro plans.

22:42This is Robert Smith from Business History. If you're listening to this, there's a good chance you're a small business owner. And like every small business owner, you started with a dream to do what you love and watch it grow. What you probably didn't dream about? Keeping up with cyber threats. That's where MasterCard can help with access to tools that help identify cyber threats to better protect your business. Building your dream business? Priceless. For cybersecurity in a changing world? There's MasterCard. Learn more at MasterCard.com slash small business. This is Alexis Christopoulos for Bloomberg Surveillance. AI is everywhere. Outcomes are not.

23:18Not because AI doesn't work, but because AI hasn't reached the workflows yet. The campaigns, the launches, the quarterly planning. Those workflows are still run by humans alone. AI is making individuals faster, but it's not making businesses more productive. That's the gap Asana is built to close. Asana is the operating system for human agent teams, your easy button for AI productivity across every team. Ready-to-go AI teammates pre-built for marketing, ops, and IT. No prompt engineering, no setup. They show up where the work is happening,

23:52already onboarded in your workflows, ready to deliver. And the more they work with your team, the smarter they get. With Asana, your whole company can work on the same plan towards the same goal, whether you're a team of 10 or 10,000. Asana, where humans and agents workflow together. Try it at asana.com. That's A-S-A-N-A dot com. Running a small business takes everything you've got. But with Chase for Business, you're not alone. They bring together local support and a broad range of resources to more than 7 million customers. With a deep understanding of your day-to-day needs, they provide products and guidance

24:26built to help you thrive. Right now, earn $500 when you open a new Chase Business Complete Checking account for new business checking customers with qualifying activities. Offer expires January 21st, 2027. Chase Business Complete Checking has the flexible tools you need to accept payments, make deposits, and manage your finances with confidence. Learn more at chase.com slash podcast biz offer. Chase, make more of what's yours. Fees may apply to Chase Business Complete Checking accounts. The $500 offer is available for new business checking accounts with qualifying activities

25:00through 1-21-2027. Eligibility and qualification requirements must be met. Additional restrictions may apply. Please speak with a business banker for more information. JPMorgan Chase Bank, N.A., member FDIC. You know, last year when we spoke, we were talking about AI use in general at DRW,

Internal token routing at DRW

25:18and I think you said people were using agents to sort of debate investment theories or risk allocation and things like that, but you weren't using AI to actually deploy risk at that time. Joe mentioned that things change very, very fast in the world of AI. 12 months later, has that changed? What's AI doing for you now? Yeah, no, I mean, there's definitely more adoption. There's more frontline adoption, for sure. Has your token budget gone up? The token budget goes up. Yes, it goes up. The token use is

25:49like this exponential chart. It's pretty interesting. Do you have, there's another question, like across your businesses, have you figured out optimal internal token allocation? We've asked this to a lot of executives, and at least up until recent, they're like, we're just still trying to figure this out. But you must have everyone, of course, everyone wants more. I assume everyone always wants the frontier token cost. Have you solved the question of like internal token allocation yet? Well, here, I mean, I think the most important thing is to be thoughtful about how you route

26:23the inference requests. And not every inference request needs to go to a frontier model. Right. And so, you know, that's the thing that we're trying to optimize for is minimize token spend by optimally routing inference requests. Now, shall we ask about perpetuals? Okay, perps, go.

Perpetual contracts and market structure

26:47What is Terry? Why is Terry wrong about perps? I mean, listen, here, perps, in my view, are- Terry's in the audience, by the way. I know, I know. But you're also his client, so- I know. And Terry and I, you know, enjoy talking about this. You know, my view is that perps serve a useful economic purpose. They are futures contracts. And I mean, here, I'll give you a couple

27:21examples. The, you know, a lot of people like to buy the crude oil ETF. Yeah. And the crude oil ETF generally, you know, at one point it was always in the front month future and it broadcast to the world exactly what day it would roll from that futures to the next futures contract. And I don't know, there was probably a little bit of slippage in that, a little bit of inefficiency. Now they've kind of like, now they do it over a window and they hold the, you know, first three contracts and whatever they've, you know, but there's still a lot of slippage. Now imagine a perp that is tied to,

27:54let's say, the Brent index, okay? And an ETF that just buys that perp. I mean, I think that that would be a much more efficient experience for the ETF. And of course, that doesn't mean that that's a useful hedging instrument for an oil producer. It's not. An oil producer needs to hedge way out the curve. Great. You can have monthly and quarterly futures and perps side by side. They actually

28:28augment one another. And that's a good thing. Here's another example. Yeah. Suppose you are a retail investor and you own a hard to borrow stock and, you know, that all the hedge funds want to short, they're paying 100% annualized to short this stock. You know, if you have that stock in your retail account, you probably are, your broker is probably not saying to you, hey, we're, by the way, we're going

28:58to give you 300 basis points a day because you're holding this, you know, hard to borrow stock. Okay. That would be a thousand percent annualized, but, but, you know, 30 basis points a day, but whatever. So, and so you're not getting the benefit of owning that hard to borrow stock. Now, if instead you own the perp, then mechanically it's going to pass through. And, and so it's a, it's a real opportunity to democratize the financial markets. Right. So a democrat, this word democratize,

29:33I've never really liked it because it just sounds good, but I don't know what it means. But in this case, it makes sense because in this, in this case, what you're saying is there is an economic value that is not being captured currently by retail holders of certain stocks because no one's going to make the offer, but the demand would be there if they held that same exposure on a different issue. Correct. And the same thing for the ETF, the oil ETF, right? I mean, that's probably a retail investor that wants to have exposure to oil. Here's a more efficient way to do it. I get that it might be more useful and economically beneficial to some, but if the regulation says

30:08that a futures contract has to have an expiration date and these don't, why should it not? Where does it say that? I haven't read that. Does it not? Not that I've seen. I don't know. So Terry said they're swaps and you said they're futures. Why are they not swaps? I feel like this should be an easily settled debate. Yeah. Okay. So, so, so what's the difference? And I asked this question when Dodd Frank was being drafted and, and what's the difference between a future and a swap? I have no, I don't know. Okay. Well, the answer that I got, the answer that I got from the person drafting the legislation

30:42for Barney Frank was, everybody knows that. Swaps are risky.

30:49What? I'm sorry. A swap that is cleared has the same economic risk to society, to the holder as a futures contract does. I mean, we've gotten like lost. We've like lost our minds with nomenclature. Wait, can you address directly Terry's point about leverage in that case? Like how do you manage the leverage from these? No, I'm sorry. Again, like, like there's this confusion. Well, if it's a perp, it must have

31:24massive leverage and auto deleveraging and all these horrible things. Wrong. You can, by the way, have a quarterly futures contract with massive leverage and auto deleveraging and all these horrible things. You don't, you don't, you could list a perp with reasonable leverage and no auto deleveraging and it would be a very useful economic instrument. Joe, next year, we're going to cut ourselves out of this conversation entirely and just have Terry. No, that's great. It's crazy to think some of our most animated moments on the podcast will now be, what is the definition of a

31:58swap? But this is why this is, uh, these are the conversations that we like to have. What's it?

The reality of 24 seven trading

32:05Okay. When 24 seven trading inevitably arrives, it's already here. What are you talking about? That's true. It is here. You're right. Does that change people's lives? Is that annoying? Is it annoying to have to think about risk at 1am on a Sunday? Just from a personal life. Won't someone think of the financial journal? I mean, first of all, you know, we've been trading crypto since 2014. Yeah. So you've been 24 seven. So, so we're, I'm, I'm used to markets moving 24 seven. Um, I, I will tell you that our, uh, you know, options market makers are not happy about the

32:39prospect of, you know, making SOFR options markets over weekends. Yeah. And, and you know what? I'm very sympathetic to that. But they're happening. I, you know what? It's just going to happen. We're going to have to figure out how to deal with it. All right. Don Wilson. Thank you so much for coming back to Outlaws Live. We're just going to do it again next year, the year after that, and the year after that. That's great. Thank you so much.

33:16That was another episode of the Outlaws Podcast recorded live in Chicago. I'm Tracy Alloway. You can follow me at Tracy Alloway. And I'm Joe Weisenthal. You can follow me at The Stalwart. Follow our producers, Carmen Rodriguez at Carmen Armand, Dashiell Bennett at Dashpot, Kale Brooks at Kale Brooks, and Kevin Lozano at Kevin Lloyd Lozano. And for more Outlaws content, go to Bloomberg.com slash Outlaws for the daily newsletter and all of our episodes. And you can chat about all these topics 24-7 in our Discord, discord.gg slash Outlaws.

33:47And if you enjoyed this conversation, then please leave us a positive review on your favorite podcast platform. If you're watching the video, then please like or leave a comment or better yet, subscribe. Thanks for watching and listening.

34:12For big business, AI opened up a world of promise, but that world of promise turned into a world of pain. Cost spiraling, data trapped, security and governance risks multiplying, and ROI out of reach. That's why enterprises turn to Boomi to connect data, apps and AI,

34:48helping them operate securely, efficiently and at scale. Boomi turns a world of AI pain into a world of AI gain. As Boomi says, we got you. Head to boomi.com. That's B-O-O-M-I.com. Quick question for you. How much of your day is spent typing? Email, Slack, notes, prompts to chat GPT? Whisperflow is a voice to text app. Instead of typing, you talk and it types for you in any app on your Mac, Windows, iPhone or Android. It takes out the ums, fixes the typos and the result sounds

35:19like you wrote it four times faster than typing. So the email that used to take two minutes now takes 30 seconds. Whisperflow is free. Download it at whisperflow.ai. That's W-I-S-P-R flow.ai. A business gift should do more than check a box. It should reflect your brand and show someone they're appreciated, recognized and truly seen. 4imprint offers thousands of high quality customizable products like premium apparel, drinkware, tech and more, making it easy to create a gift that feels meaningful and on brand. And with 4imprint's expert support and their 360 degree

35:54guarantee, you can be 4imprint certain your order will arrive exactly as intended. Explore gifting with confidence at 4imprint.com. 4imprint. 4certain. Wise is the smart way to manage the currencies you need around the globe. When you send money abroad using your bank, you could get hit with hidden fees and exchange rate markups. There's a better way. Try Wise. Wise uses the exchange rate you'd usually find on Google with no unwelcome surprises. Plus, most transfers happen in under 20 seconds, which means your money arrives in less time than

36:25you've been listening to me. It's simple and free to sign up when you download the Wise app. Be smart. Get wise. T's and C's apply.