9: Brian Jones talks with Nancy Blum about public art and her multifaceted career

Introduction to NSEKA 360

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Interview with Nancy Bloom

0:39This is Ben Carter and I'll be your host. For this episode of NSEKA 360, we have an interview from our 2016 conference in Kansas City, Missouri. You will hear host Brian Jones talk with artist Nancy Bloom about her career and her work in public art projects. For more information about our organization or to register for next year's conference, please visit nseka.net.

1:10And we met last year at Penland, or 2014 I should say. Yeah, that was very nice. While you were teaching a workshop on public art and executing public art pieces from kind of beginning to end. which is what you talked about today in the panel that Bobby Silverman hosted, moderated. I'm assuming he proposed it too. He did. He was interested in talking to makers who use their ceramic education to make things on a grander scale, essentially, and without, you know, the

1:42being encumbered by, let's say, studio pottery, for example. Because that's where kind of everybody came out from. Single, solitary potter in the country, whatever. I'm kind of embellishing

Nancy Bloom's Public Art Career

1:54what he was saying. Yeah. But you've moved on. You've been working public art for 20 years. I have, I guess. Yeah. But I had a question about, because you do, you make beautiful drawings and paintings. Thank you. And then you make these beautiful public pieces, which have to do with plant life and flora. And I'm wondering, how do you translate the lushness of what plants are to their final kind of, let's say it's copper or plastic or metal? You know, I mean, with ceramics,

2:30you can fake it. I guess you could fake it with anything. But I'm curious, do you think about that lushness? You brought that word up, I think, when you started that talk. I always think about lushness. But really, I think I'm always thinking about some variation on seduction. And when I work in different materials, that process is different. So if I'm working with, if I'm drawing and I'm, and, you know, my botanical drawings are large, and they're very robust, I'm trying to pull people in

3:04through mark making, and through a very sensual roundness. And I want those drawings to be very alive. So I want there to be, it just to be a space filled with verb. When I'm making more object-based work, say I'm working in metal or resin, that is a really different experience. And so I often try to use the materials themselves to do the seduction. So sometimes those are visual things that are

3:39happening. I mean, it's all visual, but it's differently so. And so if it's a resin, I'm trying to make sure I'm bouncing light through the form and onto the wall and back to the viewer's eyes so that they're, and, you know, resin, for instance, has the feeling of candy. So the forms I make are very, I'm using that word again, but sort of voluptuous. And, you know, you kind of want to put them in your mouth. They glow, too. I mean, I think of also the butterflies you did with the orange.

4:12Yeah, the butterflies were, those things glow. The butterflies themselves were just a white porcelain, a white china clay cast, but I painted the back with day-glow colors so that the light, so that the light would, the paint would bounce up against the wall and cast what appeared to be light. So I'm, in my sculptural public artwork, I try to have there be a kind of ephemeral quality, and that demonstrates something that

4:42we know about, you know, botanical life, something about glowing, something about having almost a life force, even when it's just a stagnant object.

Quality of Public Art

4:57A lot of public art is not good. I'm trying to come up with a question as I'm asking it. A lot of public art is good, and it seems a lot of it is decided by committee. How often do you have to kind of fight against, or is it a fight? Is it a negotiation? Or do people seek you out specifically because you make the stuff that you make? Do you know what I mean? I mean, it's a very, you know, if you take, there is some really magnificent public

5:31art out there. There is. And there's terrible public art, and I think it's more offensive when it's out in the public because you think there could be a beautiful tree here, and there's this thing. And so I find poorly made, poorly conceptualized public art to be very distressing, and it stays in our environment for a long time. As far as, you know, my responsibility is to do the best I can do with the budget that I have. These processes are very competitive. I've never been

6:07in a situation where I've had to water down my idea too much. I've had to come up with new ideas. But even when there's, say, a university board, I had a project in Minneapolis, and I made a proposal, and the university wasn't, it wasn't exactly what they wanted, and so I made another proposal. But I didn't have to all of a sudden depict, you know, the school mascot, although actually somebody suggested that. But I, they totally thought I should

6:42look at the school crest and the mascot. Of course they would. But it's my job as an artist to not lower my qualities and not allow that to happen. But I think, um, who knows? Who knows about, public art is a very strange creature because a lot of people, sometimes people making the decisions are great, and sometimes they don't know what they're doing. I also think there's a lot of public art that looks dated. I mean, depending on the city,

7:16like you can see where the city money ran out because there's no more public art after a very specific amount of, like, certain date, almost. You could almost timestamp it. Oh, it's so true. That was such a good comment, I think. Do you feel like, uh, I brought this up. It gets talked about a lot. The, the phones and the idea that things are image-driven right now, um, and your work is, is images, uh, and your public art is just a reflection of those images. It's like a continuation. Has, has the, um, have you found

7:46that people who are in charge of making decisions to okay projects that you make are a little more aware of things being, looking, looking better, having a better quality, not being, being a little more in-depth and, and asking questions of the viewer? It's really, it's like everything. I, I think there are just excellent, excellent art, public artists out there just doing unbelievable work. And the field, I think, has only gotten

8:19increasingly competitive. Um, however, a small school might make a decision and they might have their administrative staff making that decision because they use the education, education building, but they might have no, they have an investment in the, in their environment, but they don't necessarily have a sophisticated understanding of the work or the processes involved and who could

8:53make the best work. And so that's, that's an, that's still an inevitable part. But I think if you look at some of the programs in different cities, Seattle's, it has great public art and there's crappy public art in it, but it also, there are some really sophisticated people putting things out in the public right now. New York, um, you know, the, if you look through New York, there's, there's some very, there are a few organizations that are going, seeking out really incredible artists who

9:28don't make public art normally or don't make art in that context and having them throw in, you know, and sometimes that doesn't work so well either because while they're in their own right, uh, wonderful artists, they don't necessarily know how to deal with the outside public space. So it's a, it's a mixed bag. Do I think overall the field's getting better? I would say overall the field is getting better. However, art is very personal. I think we can talk sort of overall

10:01qualitatively about quality of a piece, you know, how long a piece lasts, but, but there's a lot of subjectiveness to the art experience. And, uh, it's, it is an aspect of public art that can be troubling because everybody has different desires and aesthetics. Some people don't believe that, uh, there should be public art, that taxpayer money or money that's, I mean, sometimes it's not taxpayer sometimes, but if it's in a space that's so wide open,

10:32it shouldn't, it shouldn't be there. Why, why even spend money on art?

Nancy Bloom's Inspiration

10:38You make, your work is about lushness, like we said, plant life, but you live in Brooklyn, uh, which is a city. Do you have a garden? Well, I actually gross, I have a lot of succulents. I, I particularly like them because they're, they're, they're, they're swollen all the time. And I like that sort of sculptural plant. Um, however, I live right across the street from the Brooklyn Botanical Gardens and from Prospect Park. And I did not, I, I lived out in Seattle and that was really what started it.

11:15Um, you know, it's such a horticultural paradise out there and everything's lush. And I lived down the street from a crazy, uh, Dahlia garden ran by the Dahlia society. And those people are Looney Tunes because they are, they're like competitive Dahlia breeders. I love them. Um, so the, you know, they're like the fireworks of flowers and, and, um, that's, that's sort of what I was so joyful there. And then I went back to New York, which is where I prefer to live.

11:50And, and, you know, the plants just look sickly, like you see just sickly and you think, oh, it's terrible. I mean, eventually you're there long enough and you start to think, wow, that's a really pretty flower. But, you know, it takes about five years to forget what a flower, a healthy flower should look like. But that's when I started to draw it. When a piece is in public or when you're making, uh, work, how do you set the table for reflection? Where like, let's say, I forget if

12:22it was in Minneapolis for the, for the transit authority where you made those pieces or, uh, the hospital windows I thought were really stunning. But when someone's in a hospital or they're the, uh, spouse of a patient or the parent of a patient, I mean, there are different circumstances that happen in people's lives all over the place. That's what it's all about, really. Um, how do you, how do you set that up or how do you think about that? Well, I actually think about transit and hospitals quite a bit because those are two of my favorite

12:56settings for public art. I mean, there's a lot of different situations where public artists play, sometimes sports arenas, um, police stations, and I'm not really attracted to those situations. So I don't, I don't bother to apply, but I mean, we all have different needs when we're in a hospital setting, for instance. And one of the nice things about the San Francisco project was that I actually got to meet with and get to know a little bit some of the staff there. And, you know, we think often

13:30about, um, obviously the patients and the family and their needs, but, but there's just chronic, I mean, some of these people are like soldiers, you know, they're, they're just on the front line day after day. And that was a nice thing for me to think about was that my work could a little bit be in service to the uplift of the people that take care of the people that are sick or, or whatever. And so, um, I, I think reflection is really good. Um, I have, I have the capacity to critique work.

14:08One of the issues with public art is once you get the project and you make the proposal, you, there's not a lot of wiggle room to change it. Right. You're locked in. Yeah. Yeah. And so, but that's different than my own personal studio practice. And I think something that, um, one way that I'm different, I think than other public artists is that I'm very devoted to my own art practice. And in that art practice, I develop my drawings. I'm developing a

14:41new set of work that I've been working on for the last few years and it's starting to be ready for prime time. And I'm quite pleased with it, but I always think it takes me about seven years to get a body of work to where I might even want to, where it's old enough that I want to show it. But what does prime time, what does, meaning that it's getting ready to show other people and not just be my own investigation. When you have a, so you have a thing set up with a gallery. Well, I do show in galleries. Yeah. But, and this will be work that will probably show in that sort of

15:15situation, but it just mostly means that I reserve places where I make things only for myself because it's my personal investigation and it grows me as an artist. And I think, I think it's always healthy as makers or artists to push ourselves in directions that help us to evaluate what we're doing, help us see something fresh, allow us to think, do I want to do that or don't I, as opposed to just sort of being locked into, I mean, there's a lot of, I think my impression

15:51about most artists I know is that we have maybe five or 10 things that we're interested in and we sort of cycle around them over the course of our lifetime. But I think it's good to cycle and circle and push and not know and all those things. So going back to the hospital, you got to know some of the staff. Did you ever hear back from them after the piece was installed?

16:17Not from specific ones, although I'm going to go back, but I have gotten really good feedback from the hospital piece. I have, I have. Is this a, is this a, a thing that doesn't usually happen when once it's out, it's, yeah, it's out or is the hospital set up in a way that is more? Well, it's, I think I've gotten more feedback from the hospital because I think, I think it's because they installed four floors of four different artists all doing glass work at the same time.

16:48And I had, I had sort of twice the amount of real estate and I've just, from the arts commission that administered the project, the San Francisco Arts Commission and the hospital, I've just had a lot of feedback that it's, it's, it's a go. The people are very happy it's there and they're liking it and they're feeling happy.

Feedback on Public Art

17:10They want, they're happy to see it. They are. They're happy for it to be in there. And, um, I mean, the thing is, is about public art is you can kind of like drop a bomb in an environment and you don't ever need to know. Like you don't necessarily ever need to get feedback. Some pieces I don't know how, how they're liked or not liked. There's no formal feedback device. I remember there's a piece at Union Square in New York City and it's, I don't remember the artist, but he's a good artist and it's a terrible piece. And I always think, oh my God, what could be worse than having

17:46a huge budget for a commission at Union Square and just making the worst piece of your life? That's got to be so humiliating. Maybe he doesn't think of it like that. I hope he does because he, he put a horrible thing up there. Gives a bad name for public artists. No, I don't care about that. You know what? I don't know if you've seen, you know, the problem with public artists is in the public. There is so much bad art out there. You know, the, the difference is, is that you can dismiss it. Like if you go into your friend's house and they just bought a

18:17painting and it's by an artist, maybe that is even respected and you just think it's terrible. You don't have to live with it. You don't really have to deal with it, but public art you have to deal with. And, and I, and I, because it's a field I I'm engaged with, I have a lot of criticism towards it. Um, but I do know it's, I think in any given field there's, all you can do is work towards being better because it's hard to be good at what you do.

18:51Is the public art, are public artists, do they have a community? Is there a thing? Do they hang out? I mean, is it like anybody else, like painters and potters and, you know? You know, public artists have networks. There's actually the public artists network and, and yes, they know each other and they compete against each other a lot. But you don't include yourself in this because you're saying they, not we.

19:17Um, that is, that was astute. Um, I have some public artist friends. I, I never have gotten involved with an organization. Um, and so I haven't gone to conferences and. You're an introvert. Exactly. Exactly. Like I wouldn't, I have friends who teach public art and who write about public art and I would never do that, but I sometimes like to talk to them. Yeah. When you're working for yourself, like as your schedule broken up, like this is a public art day and this is a me day. Do you work like that? Or how does that, or is it months

19:51at a time when you're working? If it's taking you seven years to make a body of work that you're comfortable finally showing, that's slow going. Well, I started three years. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, I keep a few balls in the air at all time. That's how I like to work. I usually work in week blocks or month blocks. Um, you know, when public art comes along, there's some very intensive periods of planning and design and, and then there can be months where nothing's happening. So it's,

20:23it's, it's like a freelancer schedule. And, um, and so even on any given day, um, my brain's different for different types of work. So if, if something involves writing, I tend to do that in the morning or submitting applications. Um, but I, I usually like to have chunks weeks on a particular thing. I've been moving between my botanical drawings and these, uh, this other set of drawings

20:54pretty smoothly. You know, like I can work on one for a day and then the other for four. It's hard to switch gears though. I imagine. Yeah. They're really, they're all really different practices. Maybe it takes a few days to do, to start getting into. Yeah, it does to get into a zone. When you're working with fabricators and, uh, using other people's hands, do you have a crew that you've kind of accumulated over time that you can go to and say, and they understand how you work

21:28and how you talk and what you're kind of looking for? Well, different people do this differently. Some people have their own in-house crews. I don't. Um, but I have different people I've worked with over the years and I would choose to, or I do choose to work with them repetitively. Um, and, and yeah, they're, they're just some great people. I've worked with great people. Do they help make the work better or does it just make the process easier? No, I, I, they make the work. They do things I can't do anymore and, um, and they make really

22:05wonderful work. So, um, you know, I'm collaborating with them at that point and, and they're usually, I mean, it's really nice because I, I respect and admire my fabricators and craftspeople. They're usually very talented. Well, they're always very talented. And so I think they feel that coming from me. And then usually they're, they're very happy to do my work. And so that's, that's just, uh, that's a very joyful part of it all for me. I mean, periodically I want to

22:39yell at somebody, but not that often. People, you just, anybody or just, I'm nodding. Yes. Anybody. I want to yell. I want to yell. You do live in Brooklyn. You just open the window and kind of like it's the forties or something. Exactly. Get off my park. It doesn't happen anymore. Clearly. Right. You had just got awarded a really big, well, Bobby said it was really big. Oh, well it's, it's a neat thing. I, I actually had a, I had, I did a commission for the Metro

23:10Transit Authority in New York. It was a mosaic and I had a really Stephen Miota, Miota Mosaics fabricated that. And my, the person who did my, uh, project managing from the MTA is now at Langon Medical Center in New York, NYU's medical center. And she, uh, basically, I, it was a competitive process, but she, she facilitated a process where I get to now

23:40make two, two triptychs, two separate triptychs. And, uh, for the new Tisch Cafe, which is their very lovely cafeteria. And, um, they're also taking 20 of the ceramic butterflies. So I've made one triptych already. And, uh, the second triptych will be based on, um, flowers that are used medicinally that are native to New York. And it's just a great commission because often

24:17I'm commissioned to make objects. And this time they're just basically buying two very large drawings. Is the scale different in your mind then? Of the drawing? What do you mean? Well, it's just, well, the difference is, is that I fully make the drawings. It's all you. It's all me. The whole way. Yeah. And, and so, I mean, one nice thing is, is I get paid everything. So I don't have, you know, if I'm doing commissions, I, I have a budget, you know, say, I mean, my largest

24:48commission was half a million, but I get. What was that for? That was Minneapolis, St. Paul. I had three light rail stops and, um, and one works up to larger commissions. But, but, but I make, I mean, in that situation, I actually did quite well because it was spread out over time. I made 20% of that budget, but, well, I just told you how much I made, but, but it's usually for, for public art, one usually makes about 15%. And that, as, and then if you fabricate your own work, you pay yourself to fabricate

25:25your own work. So you can make a nice amount. If you don't fabricate your work, all of that goes out to the fabricator and the installer and the, and the structural engineer and the, you know, whatever. Sure. Is there a piece of art that you keep going back to? I've been asking this question kind of all week to people because I'm, I'm just generally curious, but is there something that keeps pulling you to look at it or is there a piece of writing or something that keeps you kind of engaged? Like there's music that I listen to every once in a while just

25:55to make myself feel like, just to feel kind of level. You know what I mean? Sure. I, I have been incredibly attracted to a Tibetan Buddhist art for a while. And there's a wonderful museum in New York called the Rubin Museum and it's all Himalayan. Where's that at? What part of town? It's, um, it is on, it's, it's on 17th between, uh, 7th Ave and 6th Ave. So it's not that far

26:27from Union Square and, uh, it's just a, it's a sanctuary and it's, it's all a lot of tankas, statues, Buddhist art from, you know, a lot of the different Chinese, Tibetan, Indian. And, um, and that's where I go. Do you hide out there sometimes? Sure. I've got a painting like that at the Met that I go to. Do you? I check in with it. What is it? There's a Vermeer that I really love. Oh yeah. I know exactly where, there's a Vermeer, there's a Rembrandt right next to it. Yeah. It might've been moved by now. For a long time they were right there. Just make a, make

27:01my way, beeline to that painting, just have a look for like 15 minutes and leave. It's, it's a very precious relationship when you really can be nourished that way by a piece of art. Well, I think people who can are very lucky and to have that kind of sensitivity. The sensitivity can be construed as a bad thing. You're so sensitive. Ugh. Right. Like why shouldn't that be more like a superpower than a kryptonite? That's no, you're absolutely right. I think, I think our culture thinks it's a kryptonite, but I think it is a superpower.

27:31Well, if you're a man, it's definitely not cool. Oh, I know. If a woman, fine. Why can't it be reversed? Ideally everyone would have this kind of, they'd be open to experiences of things like, look at this flower, look at this dahlia, you know? I think, I think, I think if we spent a little time being a little more sensitive to the things in our environment and, and finding, uh, solace in them, we would be a little, little less power driven and a little less, uh, acquisitional, I think.

28:05That's a, that's part of your work too. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Nancy, what's your, uh, website? Uh, nancybloom.com. N-A-N-C-Y-B-L-U-M.com. And people can buy prints of yours off your website? They can contact me and buy prints, yeah. They should contact you and buy prints. Thanks, Nancy. Thank you, Brian. That was nice. To see additional content from our conference, please visit our YouTube channel.

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