I built a $2,000,000,000 business on vibes

From farmer's market to $2 billion

0:00First time we did a Super Bowl, let me lay this down for you. We bought the Super Bowl five days before the Super Bowl. Literally.

0:16Sam, you want to do like an intro real quick? Yeah, so you and your husband are one of the fathers of Poppy, which sold for $2 billion. And I would have to say you probably win the award for brand glow up. Because one of my favorite things to watch is this old Shark Tank video of you guys. And the way that it started and the where you are now, that gap is huge. Yeah, what was it called originally? Mothers or something? Oh, so embarrassing. You had to say it out loud. Mother Beverage. And yes, I think it was a globe of this century, the best of all time.

0:48What was the story? It was just one of those beautiful entrepreneurial American dream stories where you start in your kitchen because of a personal problem. I had like tummy problems with drinking apple cider vinegar, you know, hated the taste. I was like, I have an idea. I can make this taste better. Little did I know how intense beverage is. Looking back, I don't think if I knew what I knew now, I would have done it. And it's not knowing is just such a beautiful thing. But you basically like were selling something at a farmer's market that was kind of curing your own

1:20problem. And I think you did that for more than a couple of years. And then you hooked up with the guy who kind of like was like, hey, this is amazing. But why don't we tinker with the packaging a little bit? And then you raised a little bit of money. And it was like off to the races. It was like zero to like 20 million to like 60 million to like 120 or something like crazy like that. Even crazier. I have to kind of ground you just to like in timeline. So we did do like two years farmer's market and then went on to Shark Tank, got a deal on Shark Tank and went through a whole

1:52rebrand. And then we decided to launch Poppy March 3rd, 2020, the first week of COVID. And it was like the first time everyone's thinking about their health and wellness. It's the first time people are looking at labels and wanting to understand what they're putting into your body and how can I boost my immune system and all of these things of the conversation. And so that first year we remarked, I think we did about 3 million in revenue. And then the next year is 2250. And then the big jump was from 50 to 200 million and then 500 plus to then be sold. So it's like four and a half years to

2:24almost 550 million dollars, which is crazy growth. Did you ever feel imposter syndrome doing that? Because like, you know, whenever I have a little bit of success, I'm like, oh man, is this real? Does this, this is wild, but our success was a lot slower than yours. We were just going so quick. It was hard to even sit back and even realize or fathom what was happening because it was so not normal. Like people don't understand like what we had and what growth we had is not normal. It was truly lightning in a bottle. And so I don't know if there's imposter

2:59syndrome because like, I'm very confident. We were confident in what we were building, but it wasn't a guarantee. Right. And so it's this thing of like, do I celebrate? Well, it's too soon to celebrate. So when we finally sold, it definitely was like, wait, what just happened? That was four and a half years, five years of this crazy growth. And I don't think I ever stopped and smelled the roses. Did you, you know, when, when there's like a movie and they always have like act one of the movie is the main character and they're just sort of stumbling and fumbling and they're, they're, they're struggling. And then they finally start to figure something out. Act two is always the

3:32montage where things start happening sort of fast and furious. And that's kind of the growth phase that you're describing, but they usually, you know, they, they sort of figure something, one or two things out, right? One or two things start to really work. And then they lean in and double down into those. And it's like the things that makes all the other dominoes fall. So for you guys, you're saying timing was obviously beneficial, but what were you guys doing as entrepreneurs or founders what were the key dominoes that started to fall?

Going viral on TikTok

3:57Yes. We were one of the first founder led brands to really lean into TikTok. And back then it was the wild, wild west and you were doing dances. You're doing recipe videos. You're just like literally doing all these like fun transition videos. Do you have like almost making a fool of yourself to try to go viral? Because I, I had this like personal obsession with TikTok and, and it's funny. I know you guys have had Rohan on and I remember him being like, Alison, that's for like young kids and dancers and don't, don't try. He wasn't like against it by any means, but like no

4:30one really got that platform. And so I was like, okay, I'll spend my nights and weekends and I'll play around on it until we finally went viral. And we had a lot of success on the platform. And I think it was a really big key driver in why we grew so fast. Because typically if you're a better for you brand, you blow up in LA, New York, Miami, these like major hubs, and then you kind of grow inwardly. But when you grow up with a digital first mindset within the business from core day one, we had people like, I think at one point, one of our top targets was like Fargo, North Dakota,

5:04and all of these like Cincinnati, Ohio, Houston, Texas. And so when you're a true digital first brand, you can really break through and go to more places quicker. It's like a modern field day marketing type tactic, right? Do you want to stand in a Whole Foods and give away 30 samples? Or do you want to do something and educate and put paid behind it and push your ads out organically to the FYP page and get 300,000 people to see it? And so I think that was a really big thing that really just made us different than other brands. Now everyone's doing it, right? It's part of everyone's marketing mix.

5:39But I think another really big one is we were brand first. So our number one KPI was brand awareness. How do we truly build a long lasting generational brand with every ounce of every decision that we did? Down to if we were like, what should be our variety pack at Costco? And the data was saying, you know, it should be root beer, this cream, soda, and cola. And I'd be like, well, those colors don't look good together. And our buyers would be like, wait, what? And I'm like, no, no, no. It has to be vibrant on the shelf. It has to jump. And people have to write

6:12every decision that we had was brand first, digital first. And it's easier said than done. I say this like it's common sense, but a lot of people still don't do these things. You sort of have this energy that I've seen with a lot of my very successful friends, particularly the women, where they basically are like a bull to china shop, which both men and women are. But you've like wrapped it in a much more like appealing package where like a lot of my friends who are bold in the china shops, they like I look at them, I'm like, you're you're kind of a wreck, but like

6:45you're probably going to figure it out. But when I watched your stuff on Instagram, you're very relatable, even though that even though you're crazy successful, and yet you still have this like attribute where it's like, A is here, B is here, the straight line and just go and run as fast as you can. Yeah, well, I think it's confidence. So people ask me all the time, like, Alison, how are you so confident? I'm confident because I failed and made a total fool of myself for so many years to kind of figure out what works and how how to be confident. Like, for example, everyone sees this $1.95 billion exit, but they don't see or remember me standing at a farmer's

7:20market at a folding table saying, try this apple cider vinegar drink. Like, that's so embarrassing. And so it's this ability of like, I have lived the American dream as raised by a single mother kids myself, like, end of the day, even post exit. I still have soccer practice tonight I have to go to and we're in Texas, and it's 100 degree weather, like I'm just living life. And I think within it, it was relatable with people online, because they saw themselves in me. And then that confidence piece is like, I wasn't always that confident. But I think that I've just allowed myself to share so

7:56openly and authentically the entire journey. And so people have kind of seen the journey of me becoming confident as well. How'd you get on Shark Tank? What was the story?

The Shark Tank origin story

8:06I think the best way to become successful is to see how other people did it, whether you're going to copy them or just use it as inspiration, because then now you know what's possible. So starting at the age of 24, I did this relentlessly, and I was very methodical about it. And I created a spreadsheet where I tracked roughly 50 people who were uber successful. And I looked at the year that they were born, the year that they started their apprenticeship, and then the year that they started the first thing that made them successful, finally, the year that they broke through. And I aggregated all this data along with the stories of what they

8:36did to be an apprentice and what they did to finally break through. And I put it together in a database. And HubSpot went and found this thing that I frankly even forgot about, but it did change my life. And they resurfaced it, they made it even better, and they put it into a thing that you can download for free right now. So if you click the link in the description or click the QR code right here, you can see this database that I made when I was 24, and it changed my life. And so if you're looking to become successful, or you're already successful, and just want some more inspiration, check it out. Shark Tank. We love Shark Tank. It's just such a beautiful, literally, because I've also been on the

9:09show, but I've also been a judge on it and seen both sides of the show. And they absolutely want people to get deals. They want people to be successful, and they have such good intention. And so the whole process of it is if you have a good idea, and you actually have some kind of proof of concept, you will probably have quite a bit of success on the show. And so for us, it was one of those things that like, we'd been doing it for a bit. Mother Beverage at the time, we'd done about 500,000 in revenue. And it was that point of like, if we don't get investment, we can't sustain this,

9:42right? We were working 80 hours a week, we had a kid, a kid on the way, Stephen was working a second job just to pay our mortgage. And you can only be in that rat race for so long. And so Shark Tank was just this beautiful opportunity. So we stood in line, poured our hearts out, and, you know, the producers fell in love with us. And then going on, we were so blessed to have gotten a deal with someone that's so good in beverage, right? Like, it's the things that have happened to us over the years, these doors that have opened, it's just kind of crazy. So we got to deal with Brohanoza.

10:16He had a great history in beverage. And so working with him and building it, but Shark Tank, you know, I don't think any other shark would have given us a deal. What was the, you know, Sean's in the e-commerce space, we've had a bunch of people in e-commerce, I've not been in it personally, but I've been able to like live voyeuristically through these folks. And what it seems is like the fastest you, the faster you grow, the more cash flow sucks in terms of inventory management. And there's like a lot of like issues where like the top line number is amazing, but some of the other stuff is kind of breaking. Were you cash flow positive the entire

10:48time? And what was that like? I don't think we were profitable until like right the year before we sold, but it was intentional. I think we could have starved the business and really focused on conversion and how do we really be profitable. But if you're brain building, it's expensive. It's expensive to do a beverage. So every step of the way with the board, the senior leadership, the founders, we were intentionally reinvesting back in the brand and raising the entire time, right? Was it 40 total? I think it was closer to like in the 70s.

11:23And you spent all of it? Yeah, absolutely. We bought multiple Super Bowl ads. We're running TV. We are marketing with creators. We are doing pop-ups with 50 Cent, right? Like all of these big brain building activities are so different. We aren't a traditional D2C company. We're actually not a D2C company. We were 100% on Amazon from day one, which was a decision we made as a board to do that. And it was such a good decision, but you don't make a lot of money on Amazon as a beverage. And so we saw it as a great marketing tactic for awareness because it's in so many households

11:56across America. So all of these decisions were intentional. And I think people don't get, if you want to be successful, you have to put your money where your mouth is. You mentioned Rohan. He came on the pod. I was kind of blown away. I think that guy's awesome. I've heard about him from a few other people that he's invested with. And I think he's kind of a bit of a savant with marketing or beverage. I don't know the way to describe it. But this is just me from the outside. I'm curious from the inside, what was something very useful or insightful

12:29that he did or taught you guys about or helped guide you guys towards? You know, I think it's in different stages of the business. In the early days, it was the money and the connections, right? I think that if you are taking on capital or any kind of investment and you can't get that network, that's actually meaningful network. It's pointless because now you have all this money and you spend it and you don't have, what am I doing here? So he helped us get our first like five hires within his network that were incredible and with us to help the exit, right? That was a huge impact on the business.

13:02On top of it, he has this woman, Stevie, he's worked with for 15 years and he might've mentioned her on the podcast, but she is just brilliant and brand positioning and messaging. And she's the one that did all the rebrand with us from mother to poppy. So being able to bring that to life really early on allowed us to then focus on the brand. So what I mean is when we're in mother, we were so focused on putting caps on bottles. I couldn't even have thought about what the marketing strategy was.

13:34But when we got a deal on Shark Tank, we took nine months off. We went through, we did a rebrand and we asked ourselves, who is this product for? Who is our consumer? We stepped back. What are we doing here? Then we went out and started selling. So then when we were selling, we knew who we were. A lot of brands don't do that work. They're just constantly concerned with how do I get the next sale? How do I get the next account? Not why am I here? Why am I doing this? What is my cam? Like you're not, they're not asking these questions. And so I think we allowed ourselves to have time with this. And then I think as the stage of the business grew,

14:09Rohan then started really trusting the team. We brought in incredible senior leadership. So it moved over to like more of a board like role. He was always heavily involved throughout great in the brainstorming conversations and all. But as the business grew, we hired him really smart people, people smarter than me to come in and like really advise. Hey, what's the economics of a Super Bowl commercial? You guys did, did you guys do two or one? We've done a few too. What people don't realize about a Super Bowl commercial is sure, there's the media buy, but then there's the production buy.

14:42And then there's the sustaining after the Super Bowl. It depends on if you do a 30 or 60, they're anywhere from six to $11 million. It's the standard price for everybody. But what is the cost if you're going to hire you to do it, a director, a film crew? And then how do you sustain that after? So you hit people at the Super Bowl with a Super Bowl ad, you got to hit them about seven more times with more linear ads, right? And so that you have to also invest in. So I think you also have to have distribution. It's pointless to do it if you're in five stores. At the time that we did

15:13our first Super Bowl ad, we were finally in almost every grocery store in the nation. We were really focused on our awareness goals and how do we up the awareness while Super Bowl. I remember we did it and the day after we tripled our awareness overnight and no one had really seen us as a soda. They were like, oh, there's sparkling water or better for you this. After the Super Bowl, we said we were soda 17 times in that Super Bowl ad. Afterwards, everyone saw us as a soda. So there was a lot of intentional motion behind why we did that. And it was breakthrough for us.

15:48Well, do you remember the all in costs? And then was there like analytics live and like looking at your website traffic? What was that like? First time we did Super Bowl, let me lay this down for you.

Buying a Super Bowl ad in five days

15:59We bought the Super Bowl five days before the Super Bowl. Literally. So that must have been stressful. So that's not normal. Most people buy it a year ahead of time. And so what happened is we've done a bunch of brain work. We put together a creative campaign on how we're the future of the Soda is now called Poppy. And we brought this creative to life and we saw it and it was just going to be an evergreen brain campaign that we're going to run across all of our linear media channels and streaming. And we saw this piece of content. It was very anthemic. It was beautiful. It just like

16:34told the story of Soda and the evolution of it. And we're like, wait, this is a Super Bowl ad. We went to go buy one. You can't just like buy a Super Bowl ad right before. But it's what big companies do is they'll buy a bunch of Super Bowl ads, say like for a bunch of their brands. And sometimes they end up not using them at the end. And they'll go on the market for like secondary buy on the remnant market. And we found one. I was like at a dinner with someone at a TikTok event. And they're like, I think one of my friends has one. I was like, oh my gosh, can I get him on with

17:04our CMO? And our CMO at the time, Andy Judd, went back with them back and forth and we bought it. And we're like, okay, now how do we activate? Because we can't activate in store. So it's really hard to talk about the all in cost because typically there's store activation, there's creator activation, there's, you know, the media of it all, there's website, there's production. We didn't get to do any of that, honestly, with our first Super Bowl. And then the second time around, we did it with Charlie XCX. And it was one of these moments where we wanted to just have like a fun time with it.

17:35So it was like all about the vibes within it. It wasn't this like, it was just like vibes. She said that was like the tagline that was like poppy vibes. And so we're just different. Like we're not super concerned with all of those like little aspects that you're asking. And I honestly don't even know the full number. I'm sure if I asked our CMO, he would. Sean, how does that make you feel? Because a bunch of our friends who are in e-commerce and probably many of the ones that are like significantly less successful than the greats

18:06are so like CAC driven and so metrics driven. And she's sort of saying the exact opposite. Well, look, that's why we do the podcast is because there's a thousand different ways to win. And so we like inviting people on to understand how did you win? What did you do? How does your brain work? That's part of the beauty of it. But also they're not in e-commerce. They're CPG. They're in retail. And so like, I was just looking at the Superbowl ad, the first one you were talking about. And it starts with like, you're a human on earth and in all of human existence, things have

18:39been done a certain way. And soda has been done a certain way. This is poppy. Poppy looks like soda. It tastes like soda, but, and then it has the differentiator at the end of it. And so like, I kind of dig that, like the, I think positioning is super underrated. I don't think most founders know how to do positioning at all. I think they jump straight into trying to go sell, sell, sell, but they haven't done the upfront work of figuring out, well, how is this going to live in someone's mind? And why would anybody want to buy this? Cause they don't care about you. And you have to sort of fit into their worldview in some unique way to break through, to make all the selling more

19:13effective. And so what I really like is like the name, the brand, the packaging, the positioning, you know, you guys kind of did a masterclass on that. And I think that's a pretty underrated founder skill. I don't think many people do that well. Who do you, do you think people do that well? Or do you think people screw that up? Like when you walk through the stores, are you just like, Oh God, that's wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong. Most people do it wrong. Unfortunately, I teach like masterclasses and I go all over and I speak on brand and how you can break through on TikTok and all of these things that are inherently so first experience for me, just like second nature and

19:48it's blowing their minds and then they'll go in and their mind is blown and they're still not doing it. And I just like actually don't get it. So when it comes to brand positioning, it is so core to what we've always done that is actually always an ever breathing document. So we knew we were revolutionizing soda for the next generation. We knew we were giving everyone the freedom to love soda again. It's at its best without all the baggage. Cool. North star. That is never going to change. But what does change is how culture changes. But can I, can I pause you real quick?

The pivot from gut health to soda

20:19Cause you're saying we knew we were going to revolutionize soda, but the shark tank thing is a really interesting thing. Cause you were on there with a brand that was not that great packaging. That was not that great, not talking about soda. So something happened in that nine months after the shark tank deal where you guys had some sort of like, you know, rebirth and some conversation in a meeting room somewhere where somebody asked them good questions and somebody had some good answers. So can you describe what was happening in those meetings or like, what was the useful either question or exercise or consultant or whatever you did that helped

20:51you kind of get that level of clarity? You know, and I think it's, it's this ever breezing document. So when we first launched, it was apple cider vinegar, prebiotics, like super simple gut health. We knew we were going after soda. No, it goes back to nobody believed us. We didn't even know, but Hey, we're going to, this is a huge category. And kombucha was on the declines for clean water. Wasn't giving everyone that full flavor, like soda filling that they wanted. So we knew

21:21all of those things are the facts that we know. And what we knew is once we launched, people were starting to have this use occasion where they were drinking poppy in the same occasion as soda. And so it was, we got more data points along the way. So I sit here and joke with like, we're brand forward. We're actually incredibly, incredibly, you know, sophisticated in our platforms and our processes as well, which made us, I think such a strong company. But I do think then we learned, Oh wait, this occasion. Okay. So on the front of our packaging, our tagline used to be,

21:52uh, be got happy, be got healthy. We're like, wait, people don't really care about that that much. We changed it to sodas back there than ever. We were constantly tweaking and changing as the consumer was changing in the use occasion of what people were saying about us online, what we were listening to our consumers. So, and that's what I mean within building a good brand is focusing on what, you know, what's your North star, but then you can change, you can change. And it's really hard for entrepreneurs to change by the way. Hey, let's take a quick break. You know, that feeling when strategy is done, the brief is

22:25written, everyone's aligned, and you realize someone still has to sit down and actually create all the content that someone is usually you and it's due tomorrow. Well, the breeze assistant from HubSpot can help. It works right inside HubSpot. You can draft a campaign copy, blog posts, emails, all in your brand voice, all using your actual customer data. So you don't create just content. You create content that converts. Check out HubSpot.com, the agentic customer platform for growing businesses. What I've noticed is that like, have you read Peter Thiel's Zero to One? Okay. So he like has this whole chapter or chapters on like moats and he's like, one moat is, I forget what he

23:00says, network effects, this or that. And then he gets to the last chapter and he's like, there is one more moat. It's called brand. I know it's important. And I also know, I don't know much about it, so I'm not going to write about it, but if you can figure it out, you're going to be amazing. And it's like, it's like kind of funny because it's like kind of a stereotypical Silicon Valley thing where it's like tech and product is number one and like all the other stuff like brand is number two. And Sean has talked, Sean loves comedians and like the creative process. And we talk about this idea of being sensitive and how you have to be sensitive in order to find like good stories. You got to see

23:31like, you have to be sensitive when you see what resonates. And something that I've learned about branding and I'm not good at it, I'm trying to learn, is that you do have to be very sensitive. And so like you're talking about these things I've noticed and you're making like very small observations or they feel small. Like you're talking to like maybe let's say 50 people over the course of a day at a farmer's market or whatever. And you're noticing like actually people care about X, Y, and Z. And those small changes appear to have in some created this massive outcome along with a bunch of other stuff. And I think that's what's interesting. Is there

24:05like an 80-20 rule where it's like if you focus on these handful of things, it will make a meaningful difference? I think it goes back to, I've said this before, but it's this ability or this thing around embarrassment. I think embarrassment is the most underexcored emotion when it comes to being successful in life. I think a lot of people say to themselves like, oh, I want to go pitch this idea in a meeting, but what if I sound stupid? Or I want to start a business, but what if no one cares? Well, I want to make a TikTok, but maybe I'll look ridiculous and like people will think weird of me. But I think with it to your point of

24:39like all of these little moments, I hear like, what if I am successful? What if I am viral? What can I learn about my product? And then how, okay, you hate it. Tell me why you hate it. Okay. Well, so like, for example, we had a flavor root beer that we launched and packaging we'd never really loved because we were really bright company across like basically the rainbow effect of like all these colors. And we had root beer and it was brown. And I was like, ugh, but such a core soda flavor. And so I was like, okay, we got to figure out how to

25:13do this. And our consumers telling us it tasted horrible. And we were like, maybe we should listen to them. And we changed the packaging. We changed the entire flavor. And then we put out online all the bad comments and like confronted it. And we're like, hey, you guys made us do this because we listened. And I think a lot of people just aren't willing to do that or like put them both out there or acknowledge when they were wrong. And it's hard because entrepreneurs, like we have egos, like you don't want to do those things. Was there any book or resource that you read that changed your perspective when it came to

Working in culture, not books

25:47branding? No. So fun fact, help me. I'm like severely dyslexic. I'm, you could not like pay me to read a book. I'll listen to a book. I'll listen to a podcast. I'm obsessed with doing that. But I think it's so funny. I think there's this like theory that you have to like read all these like self-health books and you have to like be on this train of like meditation. I think all that is bullshit. Like that's not how I live my life. I like wake up, you know, as my child's like hitting me in the head, asking for his iPad code and me being like you, I took iPads away,

26:20you know, and I'm like trying to get coffee and my kids out the door. Like I don't have time for that stuff because what I do know is I listen to culture. And I was saying that we moved at the speed of culture. What is culturally relevant in society from social speak to not only social speak, but like what are people talking about? Meme culture to tentpoles within society that are culture relevant. So you look at the calendar, Coachella's a tentpole, Grammys. How do you break through? Hamptons is a hotspot, right? The people that are at during the summer. So for me, it was

26:51like with brand, it's so tied to culture. And that was my obsession and my team's obsession. We hire people really young. We love to hire Gen Z, smart people that are living the moment within culture and we trust them, which is also hard for, I think, some people to do. You sent us a list of ideas because one thing we like to do is we like to brainstorm with other founders and how lucky are we that we get to sit with somebody who's built a multi-billion dollar CPG brand and be like, hey, what else is interesting? Maybe you guys are doing a new

27:25thing now, but something you won't do, something you don't plan to do, but you think, hey, there's an opportunity there because once you start to win, you see all kinds of opportunities in adjacent spaces that you're never going to have the time or energy to go do. What's on your mind? What do you see as opportunities, white spaces, things that you think somebody like you could go, the younger version of you could go and attack? You know, I always love this type of question of like, what could you do or what do you want to do next? Or like, what's the hottest thing? The beauty of Poppy is we

27:56figured out before everybody else. So for example, protein is so hot right now. Everyone's trying to figure out how to put protein in from ice cream to drinks to, you know, you see what David is doing with the protein bar and all of this. And it is really hot. But for me, I'm like, okay, cool. I think it's hot. I'm not going to now go create it. Someone is already first to market on that. And usually winners are the first to second to market. It's really hard for like even a third to market to be successful unless you do it different. So you take like the AG one craze, the green craze,

28:30right? I don't know if you guys remember, maybe it was like six years ago, we were getting hit with like 300 AG one ads. You know what I'm talking about? Well, podcasting was just an age, one long continuous AG one ad for a while. Yeah, it started with me undies. And then it went to athletic greens. Athletic. Yeah. And you're just like, oh my gosh, it's everywhere. But I actually feel like they failed to like innovate, you know, then Gruens comes along and does it in the gummies and they exit. AG is still not exited. So I'm not here to say you can't be late to the game and still win.

29:01It's just way harder. And you almost have to do it better, smarter, and different if you want to be successful. So for me, I think protein's hot. Good luck breaking through the market. It's very crowded right now. I think everyone is also trying to figure out the creatine craze, the gum. Do you put the powder to it going? How do we get women on it? Right? Everyone's talking about these things, but it's almost like you need to have been the first creatine gummy. So I'm not here to say like, I don't even know what's next other than I am starting another company and I can't tell you

29:32guys what it is. And I do think it's what's next. So it's hard for me to like speak to it. Well, maybe a different question on that. Okay. We can keep it a mystery, but tell us your mindset on it. So are you like, I want to run it back. I know so much. I'm going to go kind of same, same genre of business or, you know, sometimes people are like, Oh my God, so much scar tissue from that. Now I want to go do real estate. I want to go do something so different over here. How are you just thinking about it? Cause I think every entrepreneur on their second act, their third act, they get to decide. So what's crazy is obviously we exited

Life after the big exit

30:03the company and then Pepsi gave everybody jobs that were poppy employees, but you don't sell your company. And then they're like, Hey, here's your employee badge. So me and Steven stayed on as advisors, but as an avar, you have to take a step back from the day to day of the business. And I still like adore poppy and I'm just so happy for everything that's happening there, but I have a lot more time on my hands and I'm just really intense. I'm really hyper. I love chaos. And we went like six months. I played golf and like, we went on vacation. I like hung out with my kids. And, um, it was just

30:37this whole thing where you're just like, Oh wait, I missed the team. I missed the build. So we always knew like we had something else in it, but I do think to your point, it's very important to like, whatever we do next, I want it to be successful and it to be something I do because I love it. And it's a good idea, not just to do it again. So with that, we came up with like a really good idea. It was another like personal need where I think a lot of good ideas come from personal needs, right? That passion within versus I read the data and there's a gap in the market and the white space is this. And you're

31:09like, uh, boring. So for me, it was very personal and it's also mass. So I think a lot of people was starting a company. They try to get a little bit too niche and apple cider vinegar, mother beverage was really niche. That's a great example. It was for people that, you know, my grandma told me I should drink that or like, yeah, that does help my tummy. But the second we switched basically this exact same liquid over between positioning and the, and the need state and the occasion to soda, it blew up. And so I think that, um, whatever we do will be mass and, uh, really catered to all

31:46demographics. Well, honing in on a particular creative demographic. What's a, okay. So we asked you for some, like, we asked you about this topic in advance and you wrote down a word that I keep seeing. I don't entirely know what it means, but you said lymphatic massage. I follow a guy on Instagram and every morning at four 30, he posts these videos of him doing lip lymphatic jumping. You, you, you follow a guy. I'm doing this. I'm laying there with my legs on the wall. Yeah. I'm massaging my lymph nodes. I'm like, I don't know if this does anything.

32:18Somebody told me that is the word I keep seeing. They go, you might feel a little sick at first, but that's how you know it's working, which is the ultimate marketing sales pitch. It's like, you want trying to get healthier. You might feel, you might feel sick at first. That's how powerful this is. You know, and I've never been sick from it, but is what happened is, you know, I worked for 10 years at Poppy. I think I went to the doctor like once, you know, you're just like on this build mode, but I was like, Oh wait, okay. I need to like get my life together on like the wellness front. And I started doing all sorts of things, doing longevity doctors and, you know,

32:50getting all the function health and like understand, and then you get all this data and you're like, well, what do I do with this? And so for me, I just recently had a surgery with the whole mommy makeover. I had like a tummy tuck and I'm like living my best life. And the doctor's like the number one thing you can do is lymphatic massage. I started doing it after surgery three times a week. I still do it twice a week. But what's like lymph? Is that a body? I don't even know. It's the system that helps flush out all the toxins and get everything out of your system. And so the idea behind lymphatic massage is you are slowly working those fluids to your

33:25lymphatic system for detox and flush you. So you feel lighter, you feel, you know, not as bloated, more energy. You're just getting like all of that bad stuff out of your system. But like on a scale, woo-woo to proven with woo-woo being totally fine. That's not an insult. Where does it rank? Like, where's it on that spectrum? I don't think that it's something that, um, there's like a lot of science behind it by any means. For me personally, I always think like personal recommendations are always better. It's like, it's been life-changing for me through, I mean, there's like, you say you're like running a

34:00marathon, like someone's running the New York City marathon and he's been having knee pain. I was like, oh, get lymphatic massage. And he was like, for three weeks, he was like, oh my gosh, like my pain is gone. And so it just helps the soreness, just all that stuff built up in your body, it gets it out. So I challenge you to go do it. And one of the best people in the space, it's, it's really comes from Brazilian lymphatic massage. So this is really big in Brazil. Her name is Josie and she lives here in Austin and she's like, does all the stars from Miley Cyrus to Katy Perry, to all these people. So

34:34test is up, might not work for you. Sam, just go to the spa and ask for a Brazilian and see what happens. I think, I think that'll work. Yeah, I don't know about that. So you talked about your, you can't announce your company, but can we guess, can we just take five blind guesses in a year? We just come back and see if we had it right? Sure. I mean, I won't say anything. You don't have to confirm or deny. You can just say that's interesting. I'm just thinking, I'm thinking where you go into, let me ask you one question. We had Eric Ryan come on, he created Oli Gummies and Methods. Soap and a bunch of welly band-aids. And he had this great line where he goes, I walk through the

35:09aisles and I look at, I look for a sea of sameness. So basically I'm looking for these sleepy categories where everything looks the same in the aisle and I want to come and be different. And he said, even with the gummy brand, he was like, all of the vitamins look the same. They were all round jars. He's like, so I just knew right away, first note, okay, we're doing a, like a rectangular jar. He's like, is it better? No, but it's completely different. So like, it's better. Therefore, do you have a similar approach? Do you kind of walk looking for sort of sleepy aisles or a sea of sameness? Is that a heuristic for you or no, you think about other things?

35:42No, for me, it's personal need. So it's like, I think there's this whole new wave of this like GLP one era that people are sleeping on and not catering to and thinking that it's going to go away. And so I lost 60 pounds on GLP ones. It's absolutely changed my life. And there was just like a personal need there. And I think that people, it's not that deep either. I think that you make the best brands and the best businesses are 10 to 15% better than the established norm.

36:16It's not the niche products, like I said. Can you explain that? Because what I hear all the time in San Francisco is the, you got to be 10 times better is the kind of like the thing. And who can argue with that? Hell, might as well say a hundred times better, right? Like, you know, who doesn't want that? But you have a, you're saying something a little bit different. You're saying actually a small kind of angle difference, 10 to 15% can be enough. Can you explain that? I think with like food and beverage in particular, or beauty products, like hardcore CPG, I can only speak to that because that's what I know. And I think it's true for in that space and

36:49the way of you take soda, for example, everyone grew up on soda. And usually when you say the word soda, you have a memory like movies, late night with family, burger and a soda. It invokes emotion because there's that long ingrained nostalgia, something you grew up with. So every marketer's goal, how do you get to the consumer and you move the buying power from the head to the heart? They're emotionally connected with your brand. That's what you're always wanting to do with brand building. How do you get someone who's obsessed? So you tap into emotion and you make

37:23something that they grew up with just a little bit better, right? That's what we did at Poppy. We have cola, we have root beer, we have cream soda, we have all of these flavors that people grew up and we're just, we're better, right? And so instead of being like, hey, we're Poppy, we also have ashwagandha and lion's mane. And we have 38 other ingredients that nobody actually cares about versus, hey, we're going to make this 89% less sugar. You're going to get all the same flavors you grew up with. And we're really good. Yeah, sure. We have pre-box. We're not going to talk about it that much. And that's what I mean, that 10 to 15% better. By the way, I started drinking Poppy so

37:57much more when the pre-biotic or probiotic messaging was a little bit different. Before when I used to see, I used to see it at a Royal Blue grocery store. And I was like, is this supposed to be like a health, a health drink? I was like, what is this? And there was an evolution of that be that happy, but get healthy to soda. We found people didn't care. And you're like, that's a perfect example. And we got that from the consumer. And so we just started leaning into our consumer journey was we wanted someone to pick up the can and say, this is so cute. We wanted them to drink it and be like,

38:29holy crap, this tastes amazing. And then to flip it over and be like, wait, this is so good for me too. And it was intentional. And it's an easier journey in versus that niche health consumer. What's this thing that you listed called Nello? Oh, Nello. They're so good. So magnesium, anything I think around sleep health is really important as well. I think I would say if you're stressed or having a bad day, or you want to blow up on an employee or your friend or your coworker, and you're just like, oh, nothing a good night's sleep can't cure.

39:01But what is Nello? Nello is a powder within the calming space. So it's magnesium. And there's a lot of studies around magnesium and helping you sleep. I'm obsessed with my Orion sleep system. I don't know if you've seen these, but regular temperature at night. And so my side of the bed is different than Steven's side of the bed. And you can sleep. And then it auto changes throughout the night and tracks your temperature so that, you know, like those nights where you wake up and you're sweating or you're freezing. It tracks that before how it happens. So it keeps you in REM. It keeps you in

39:35deep sleep state. And so it's all of these things that I feel like these calming powders, all of these things to bring you more sleep has been like a game changer for me personally. And they're blowing up. They're everywhere. They're killing it. What are some other little gadgets or drinks like that that you're playing around with or you're like, you know, nerding out even as a health consumer or like a businesswoman who like cares about seeing the latest and greatest? I think another big movement that I purchased for my household is called Preston Lane cleaning

40:07products. And it's clean, like the ingredients are clean. So you're spraying it on your table where your kids are. And you have all these other ones with all these like harsh, harsh chemicals in it. Well, I switched my whole household over to Preston Lane. And not only does it smell amazing, the ingredients are safe, but they also make like candles and they make dish hopes. And so it all also looks really aesthetically pleasing in your house and it matches versus you have that also like Clorox bottle, right? You're like, oh, how do I hide all this or the Don? So how do I hide all

40:38this under the cabinet? And they've done a really good job also with the spray. It's a scent so that like your house smells good at the same time versus that lemon pledge. Doesn't that sort of go against one of the points you made about like how protein is played out. And so it's going to be a lot more challenging because when I thought about like clean, better for you, like, yeah, like better for you, like soaps or Clorox or whatever, I would have thought that there's one called like Blue, Blue, I forget what it's called. Blue something. Yeah. Like it's and then there's like, you know, we just talked about Eric Ryan. His whole

41:11thing was how do I create a bottle so like cool or pretty that you'd keep it on your countertop instead of hiding it away. But it seems like there's still like some pretty cool emerging brands that are popping up because of that. Yeah, I think Blueland is an incredible brand. It's more around like how do they reduce plastic and their receivable. Oh, got it. So they're like taking on the oceans and they're killing it. So that's a whole other use occasion where it's like, I want clean ingredients that make my house smell good that look cute on my counter. Sure, you could argue maybe like a method, but I still don't think they're that cute. They look,

41:44they're not like high end Florence Tom Ford type look, whereas I think Preston Lane is so and it's an affordable price. And so definitely not anymore. Like I remember when it came out originally, it was awesome. Now it's like it is definitely it's it's old now. You know, it's probably like 20 years old. It is. And so I think that there's still innovation within categories. And they're doing it just 10 to 15% better. Right. And if you really look at it, no one else is really doing it in this space right now. And they're pretty new. That's kind of a good guess, Sean, for what she's going to do next. I think cleaning supplies is somewhat interesting. Cleaning is one guess. I think like something

42:18like toothpaste, oral care, stuff like that. I mean, she kind of said the GOP one thing. Maybe she kind of gave us the hint there of like, there's a whole like ecosystem of, hey, if 100 million Americans are going to be taking GOP ones, and they go to the store, and there's a product they can buy to like support boost or minimize downsides. Obviously, that's like a mega mega market that's getting created that today, like the incumbent products just don't speak to even if they could help, they don't, they're not like positioned to be that, that assistant, the wingman for you,

42:48if you're on GOP one. So I've definitely, I've thought about that. It sounds like she's thinking about that. I think that's a huge category. All these things are great. And I can't wait for you guys to find out in the fall, but you haven't guessed it yet. So stay tuned. Okay.

43:04The thrilling podcast where we just simply guess things that the guest. Well, tell us about making money. Because one thing I like about you is you're not one of these people who's just kind of like, at least you don't come across this way where you like pretend that you didn't care about money when you became a business person like this, this really weird taboo that a lot of business people who obviously care about succeeding, and they want to be wealthy, they want to be financially successful. But then they kind of have to pretend they feel like they have

43:34to pretend that they're not. And our podcast is called My First Million. We sort of, we're pretty blunt about like, hey, look, like one of the main reasons we got into entrepreneurship. Yeah, we like the creativity, we like the autonomy, the independence. But like the prize is also really fun. And, you know, you guys did fantastically well. Can you tell us like what it was like to get rich? Yeah. And I think the number one thing with entrepreneurs, if you can get to like that 20 million mark within your business, you should be having this conversation, maybe even at the 5

44:07million of you probably need to start getting some financial advice, you need to start thinking through your estate planning, your gifting exemptions, and having these conversations really earlier, because the earlier you do it, and you move your shares into trusts, and all this, it's just better in the long run for you. But just putting that out there, if you're anywhere between the 5 to 20 million range of revenue for your company, you should be having these conversations. And I think for us, we were blessed to have really good advice early on. And so when you're having these conversations years after years, waiting for this one moment, this exit that may never happen,

44:43it's tough place to be. So for me, I'm like, okay, I'm great. We're there. But I can't think about that. But to your point, absolutely. Like we wanted to exit. I love that I can have generational wealth for me and my family. And it was always the goal. Right. And so I think that we also like halfway and took some chips off the table where we like, sold some of our shares so that we could upgrade our lifestyle a little bit before and also have a nest egg, just in case we don't sell. And I know a lot of founders that haven't done that. And I implore them to do it because I've also

45:18heard of people going out of business. And they're left with nothing. Well, would you say it kind of works both ways, right? So there's one side is insurance in case it all fell over. You know, you have the safety net. But the other side, like maybe you experienced this, I did for sure, which was you take a little bit off the table, you sort of satisfy that first level. And then you're almost free to swing bigger because you're not all or nothing now. Did you feel that way when you guys did it? I did. And our financial advisor at the time told us, he's like,

45:49you're never going to regret living the life that you want earlier. Say, I don't know, make a number, it's worth $5 million. And in five years, it's going to be worth $20 million. You're never going to regret buying the nicer house, going on the extra vacation with your kids, getting the upgraded car, having the nicer phone. You're never going to regret having those experiences. And I agree. And I wholeheartedly agree with that. That allowed us to then sit back and like work harder for like, wait, I want more of this. And like dig your heels in and like,

46:19this is this upgrade in lifestyle is everything. So for us, it was really important. And then the day you actually get the money, you realize your life is doesn't change overnight. I think that's another thing that happens is the money hits the bank account. I'll never forget it. Because, you know, Stephen has his shares. I have mine. And we were like, refresh, refresh one day of. And then like my half hit at like 10. And it was still like two and his hadn't hit. And I was like, oh, hi, I'm Richard and you. And if I finally like went to the account and then we were like,

46:50hey, let's go celebrate. Let's go to lunch or go to dinner. I forgot what it was, but we had calls and it was like this whole thing. We ended up doing nothing. I sat on Zoom call the rest of the day, you know, and the next day woke up and we still have to be on Zoom calls. So it was this thing of my life didn't change just overnight is where it does change. It's where you're spending a year of like actually making real change within your life. Like, how do I make my life easier? How do I get more time with my kids? You, you know, person usually do is like hire a housekeeper and have maybe a chef once or twice a week. You're not cooking or, you know, how do you get help on

47:22executive level or a nanny? Like we never had a nanny before, right? Before we sold. So it was a lot of these things of like this upgraded lifestyle, but knowing I want my kids to be spoiled kids. So like it's a balance within the lifestyle and we're still kind of figuring it out. It's still pretty new.

Teaching kids about money

47:42Yeah. What type of conversations? I think you said your oldest was 14. Oh, it's he's nine. So I'm sorry, nine or eight, nine. Yeah. It's crazy. Okay. Well, nine is, is just getting to the age where you can start having some observations and like questioning certain things. Have you, do you have regular conversations with them? The thing is they are still little, but the difference is our exit was very public. So we're at every headline, every single one of his teachers, friends, our friend, everybody knows that it was 2 billion and everyone obviously thinks we took all the 2 million, which is not true.

48:16Our 2 billion, excuse me. So I remember like one time, I think it was like two days after the exit. Then once again, I'm dropping my kids off at school and Crocs and socks and like my hair in a ponytail. My life hasn't like, you know, you're just living life. And a little girl, she was in kindergarten. She walked out, she's like, are you a billionaire? And I'm like, oh, we got to have some conversations with our kids. Like I didn't realize like how big it was. So we sat them down and we were basically like, Hey, it's ours, not yours. Our lives aren't going to change. We're going to continue to be good people. We're going to continue to be kind and give back and, and do all

48:52that and then not shy away from it. So we got them all fidelity investment accounts and put a little bit of money in so that they can start learning how to invest. So they have quarterly meetings with our financial advisors and we're continually having these conversations because we're not naive to think that they don't know. What are they investing in? Are they like micron stock right now? Like what are they doing? They're like Tesla. And like at the time they're like, we're going to do Tesla, you know, the open eye AI and like Apple, Nike. They even wanted Pepsi because they wanted Poppy, like all this stuff. I mean, those all sound like great buys.

49:25They were great, but we have $5,000 to invest, you know, and you come back and some were down, some were up depending on what they were doing. It's, it's just more of a learning thing for them to like work through it versus like going really big, which I love. He's going to have like QSBS at his 15th birthday. Today's podcast is brought to you by my friends at Mercury. They make the world's best banking product. I think you know this already. I use Mercury for all of my businesses. I think I have like maybe seven or eight businesses. We use Mercury as our business banking across all of them. And now they actually just launched a personal banking account.

49:58So I have my personal account there. I moved off of Wells Fargo and Chase. I'm just all in on Mercury. Why? I like products that are easy to use. I like products that get me and the problems that I have. So like very easy to make a joint account with my wife, very easy to spin up virtual cards, a one click and I get savings yield. It's just has all the stuff that I need in one place. So if you're looking for the best banking product on the market, it's definitely Mercury. I will fist fight anybody who disagrees with me on that. Go to mercury.com slash personal and learn more. Mercury is a FinTech, not an FDIC insured bank. Banking services are provided through Choice

50:31Financial Group and column NA members FDIC. Okay. So you do all that. Tell us about the sale. Because I feel like the M&A process is one of the most important parts of any company. You as a founder, you get, you might do many businesses, you might work on business for years, but you really only do M&A like 1% of your entrepreneurial journey. So you don't get a lot of reps at it, but it's super important. Like the value can swing 30%, 50% to based on how you approach that, when you go to market, how you go to market, how you do all that. Was it a easy

51:02process? Was it a super stressful process? Was there any great moments in the high stakes negotiations going on? Like what can you tell us about the story? So there's that fine line within, especially beverage, because once again, it's like my experience in it, is you can get too big to be bought and then you're forced to go IPO. And within a beverage, that's not great because then you don't have a distribution partner. And so you're looking at who can be a great distribution partner. There's only three people that can buy you, which is Keurig, Dr. Pepper, Pepsi, and Coke. And so you're kind of like,

51:38okay, yeah, sure you could do what Celsius did. And they were able to go public, but Pepsi distributes them and has a small stake in the company. So there are other ways around it, but traditionally that's how it works.

The Pepsi acquisition process

51:51Can you explain the distributor part? It's you need the actual retail entry. You need a manufacturing plant. What do you mean by you need a distribution partner? Because you're obviously doing so well. What is it that they bring at that point that you need? Yeah. So for us, we were a direct distribution model where it was called DSD. We had 180 different distributors pieced together across the U.S., basically putting us on our truck and putting us on the shelf. So all of that would move over to one person doing it. So we call it the red or the blue truck, right? Or the purple truck. So you have purple, which is Keurig, Dr. Pepper,

52:24blue is Pepsi, or red truck. And so our goal is like, oh, great, we can now be on this blue truck. It's one person you're talking to versus the 180 or whatever the number was. And now we have access to so many more things than we did before. For example, we were the official soda of the Lakers and could not be sold in the stadium because it was a coat contract. We can't be at Madison Square Garden. We can't be at Taco Bell, Subway. You can't be at any of these places. So if you really want to grow, you have to have that distribution arm because of all of those contracts. Think the Marriott's

52:56of the world, the international of it all, right? We'd have to build out different international teams. So if you really want to have growth, you need a partner to do this. And so for us, we talked to all three. It depends on timing, what their priorities are within. And the beauty with Pepsi, they're really prioritizing better for you. They're taking their dyes out of like a lot of their chips. We're having the conversation and you're seeing what's happening with Gatorade. They're taking stuff out of the ingredients out of that. So I think that they saw the vision,

53:27they saw the data, and they saw a great story and a great team and a great brand. And so they approached us one year earlier before we sold. We were in talks with them and they kind of gave us a little bit of an offer. It was like, hey, no, I think we can keep going. So we completely stopped talking to them. Didn't talk to them, not even an email for like over a year. And then we kind of opened up the conversations where we hit about 500,000 in revenue. And we're like, okay, if we keep going, this is going to get rough. 500 million? Yeah. We hit that like we had just

54:01surpassed the 500 million mark. And we're like, okay, if we keep going like this, say we double the business and we keep going, we should probably reignite some of these conversations because it's a lot easier to buy a $500 million company than a billion dollar company. And there's less buyers and it's the whole thing. And look, we're having these conversations and it's always about timing. And Pepsi came to us and they're like, hey, we see what's happening here. This is incredible. I know we haven't talked in a year, but we want to re-engage the conversation. And after that, it just was really simple because they offered to buy 100% of the company. A lot of times they'll do a two-step

54:35deal where you buy 30% and you have to hit certain markers and then they'll buy 100%. And it's just, it's a tougher thing to work through from a founder because you're like, okay, well, I'm back and forth. And like, if I don't hit this, then you can't sell it. But they offered 100% of the company. So it was a great deal. They offered to give all of the popular people that wanted jobs, jobs. So we knew that that was going to be incredible for the workforce. 99.9% of every employee had equity. So it could be generational money for a lot of these families had worked so hard

55:09with us. And they gave us a great offer and a great multiple. And so once we said yes, we worked through DD in about six weeks. And then there's this wait period where the, you know, they have to get approval with FCC to make sure like a soda company is buying a soda company and there's no monopoly there. And we passed the 30-day mark and we signed the paperwork. So it was actually a shorter process than most people go through. When Rohan was on, is it Rohan or Rohan? Rohan, yeah.

55:39Rohan, sorry. When he was on, he told some crazy stories because I think, you know, he's now an industry veteran, but he kind of came up, I believe it was under Smartwater or Vitamin Water, or maybe that's the same guy. And he like told a story when they were wanting to sell, where he was like my mentor, you know, the guy who actually ran the company, he had some like swagger where like they made offers that he just like said no. And he stood up and he just walked out the room and they like grabbed him and they like said, all right, come here, come here. We'll renegotiate. Like, like he had some crazy energy. Was there any stories like that when you were

56:14negotiating because you were with him on like, did you learn anything about negotiating? You know, we were happy with the Pepsi situation and we didn't have to do any of that dramatic stuff. At one point, there was a company trying to buy us and Rohan, like they offered us 1.6, he wanted two and he would like threaten to get up in the room and it like blew up the whole thing. But it was kind of like, we were in talks with Pepsi at the time. So it was like, there's like no

56:46harm, no foul. I would say it was, it was weirdly easy. I, not to say like to sell the company, but like the negotiations, like Pepsi just got it. I don't know how to explain it. And they still are doing such a good job. Cause I think that even post exit, it's like the scariest thing in the world is to like hand off your baby and hope they don't mess it up. And it's like, I'm seeing all the cool stuff that they're still doing. So it's not happened yet. I'm still watching. I have faith. Right before I had sold my last company, I used whichever, I forget which personal finance app I

57:19was using, but like you can track all of your bank accounts or whatever, and you can manually enter like a bank account if you own something that can't be linked. And I remember I put in like my dream number, like 12 months before I sold. Did you do anything crazy like that leading up to it, where you were like laying in bed, like trying to manifest like $2 billion? Or did you have a number in your head where you were like, one day I think we can become this and it became true? Or were you just along for the ride? I remember when we first started, we were like, if we could just sell for $500 million, like, wow. And I think vital proteins had just sold. It was any, I forget the

57:56numbers. And you're from 500 up to a billion. I don't know. And I was like, wow. I mean, what if we went for $800 million? And it was just, and then every year in the business, you're like, oh, well, that number seems so small. Like we did that in revenue. Like what is happening? So you had big aspirations early on. I mean, yeah, I mean, 500 million is a very big number. Well, you look at beverage historically, like it's a big exit and there's very few that do it. If you can get to that a hundred million, 200 million mark in revenue, you're in this like

58:27playing field that only like 15 other brands have been at. And so it's just one of those things that like when we started hitting these thresholds, it's really easy to start believing in that dream. And as an entrepreneur, sky's the limit the way you think. And you guys know, like you're, it's this thing of like, you know, the ceiling, you know, you can be there. Why can't I do it? It's like, we're fearless within it. And so I think for me, it was more that, you know, you get there at the exit and then it's the life change afterwards. I don't know. Did you guys have the post-exit blues or like, were you just like, nope, so glad, done, bye. Yes.

59:03Yeah. I had heard a lot about that and I was like, oh, I wonder. Nope. I felt amazing. And I was like, wow, this is actually underrated. Most people don't. Well, I will say one thing. I felt relieved more than I felt excited when it happened because M&A is like pretty grueling and you don't know. And it could like, it could always die. The deal could always die until anything can happen in the bank. Like, in fact, I just sold a company recently and five days after we closed, like there was like a announcement by, you know, a law change that would have like,

59:34we're probably wouldn't affected us that much, but it definitely would have spooked a buyer to say like, well, let's just like, think about it a little bit more. And like, thank God, you know, just like five, five days. And you never even know. That's not something we were thinking about necessarily, but like, we just knew there's a million possibilities of how like this could fall apart. We don't even know which one. So I'd say definitely felt relief more than excitement, which was surprising. Then felt a little clueless on like, great. So now I'm gonna, it's like, well, I don't really, I kind of was already living pretty well. Don't really need any,

1:00:05you know, like you can upgrade certain things, but it's surprising how little your day-to-day will actually change. That was also a little bit of a surprise, but I didn't feel the blues in terms of, I think people feel a sense of loss of purpose or like they go from high action with a team and an office to like a lot of, like a lot of silence and a lot of nothing going on each day. For me, that wasn't so big of a, of a change. But the thing I do feel is like, you know, if you, if you spend so much of your life wired to chase one thing, once you get it, you do have to sort of

1:00:38redefine like, what am I doing this for? What do I want now? And I think that I do feel that, like I think picking a new mountain to climb that has some meaning behind it is take some work versus just doing this, like, you know, cause it was very obvious at the beginning. It's like, I got nothing. I want something that was very clear. I didn't really have to think about it too much, but now I find myself thinking about it a lot more. But, and also have you guys heard the phrase they referred to boxers when they get successful? They say, uh, it's a lot harder to wake up at 4am to go for a run when you're getting out of bed in silk sheets. And, uh, it's basically

1:01:13like, you know, it's hard to like go and get punched in the face figuratively or physically, uh, when you don't particularly have to, I've noticed post exit on one, on one side, you definitely do think grander and you do have more resources to turn ideas into reality, but it could go either way. It could be like, well, because I have resources or because I have time, I can be starting 10 different things at once with tip, which typically does not end well, that use that lack of focus doesn't do good, or you just don't grind as hard.

1:01:43And, and I, I, I always have that fear. I'm like, Oh, am I just soft now? Allison, do, do, does any of what we just said resonate with you? Or are you like, no, I don't get that. I'm the opposite of that. Yeah. I think it's, I think the purpose driven piece is huge. You know, you, I think purpose is more important than money, but I think if you have purpose, money will come. Um, and for me, I had a 10 year purpose and then overnight it was gone. It was a lot of loss for me, for sure. Like what you're speaking to, but I think that that's normal. You look at these

1:02:17like Olympic athletes that retire and then they're like, wait, now what? Like, I think a lot of people deal with it in different ways throughout their life. And for, for us, it was just like, whoa, this is over. And it was really hard. But then once I worked through that and found out like, wait, there's more purpose to life than working. And like this, right. I have a incredible, you know, friend group. I'm, my wellness is a huge piece of purpose for me now. And it's like, so it changed a little bit. And I think that, um, that's been really nice for me. And I feel like

1:02:49I'm the happiest I've ever been in my life personally with me because of that. But I am excited to build again. And I am excited. I miss the chaos. I miss the team. I miss the drive. So I think both could probably be true. But what about with kids? Um, I sold my company before I had a kid. Now that I've got, I've got two kids, Sean's got kids. Uh, you guys each have three. I definitely like, I want to be home by a certain time. Whereas before I didn't have that, but you have an interesting perspective. Your come up was with babies.

1:03:20It's like all I know. And it's something I want them to see us to continue to work hard. I think through example of us doing it again, even though we don't have to, I love that they can see that, but I agree with you this time. I think it'll be easier and having more help. They're older. I can take them with me to New York. If I'm doing a trip for a press tour or something like that, then it just allows for more experiences. Hey, can I ask you, you probably get 10 times more of this than we do, but, um, you know,

Why a million dollar vacation is overrated

1:03:50you're at an event, you're speaking somewhere, people come up to you and they're like, Oh, Hey, I have this idea. Or like, I'd love to tell you about my thing. And you want to be nice and you want to be helpful. But also the reality of the world is that 99 out of a hundred of those people are not serious enough to actually do the thing. And I often have this urge, which is just like, I feel like I wish I could just shake them and just give them some real talk. And I don't even know if they would want it or they would like it or they would listen to it. But there's this deep

1:04:21sense in me that like, I really, there's some real talk. I wish I could just give to more people so that maybe that 99 out of a hundred would change to 84 out of a hundred only would, would not actually, you know, make it happen. But now 16, now 16 of the hundred would make it happen. And so what, I wonder what that is for you. Like, what do you think is the real talk that people need when, you know, when people come up to you after an event, what do you wish they were actually like, if only you knew, if only you understood what this is actually going to, what you actually need to do or what this is actually going to take, what would you say to that person?

1:04:53So my biggest piece of advice, if you're lucky enough to be in a room with someone like you or me or anyone that can give actual advice, listen, most people come up to you and they want to tell you everything about their business and they never ask a question.

1:05:10There's one validation. I don't know what it is. They're like, I'm studying this and we've done this and we have this manufacturer and we launched a target and this is positioning and this is what I'm thinking there. And I'm like, okay, like, I don't know what to, I don't know what to tell you because you haven't asked a question. And so I'm always willing to give advice. I'm not willing to do the work for you. And I think that's another thing that people get the line blurred. Hey, you've done this before. Can I get 10 minutes of your time? Well, what are you doing? Well, I want to be an entrepreneur. I think this space could be interesting. Do not come to me with that. Figure it out.

1:05:45Come to me with real questions that I can add value and give back and actually move the needle for your life and your business. And that's, I think, my biggest asset. I don't think a lot of people realize if you're lucky enough to run into a Mark Cuban or a Rohan or me, ask real questions. And I think like if people can actually hear that, it would be actually helpful to them. Yeah, I feel that. I feel that for sure. I have this slightly different take on it, which is, I think you're right that like you got to ask a real question or most people just want

1:06:16to be validated. Like it's the end of the event and they have their parking ticket and they just want you to validate it for them. So they get free parking, get out of here. It's like, I have this idea of a lot. And I just kind of want you to like say yes so that I feel good. And it's like, do you want to feel good? Or did you want to actually move the ball forward here by like kind of maybe unblocking something that was blocked? But I would say even more than that is most people just are decidedly unserious about the things that they're doing in life. And it's the problem is not their strategy. It's not their circumstances. It's that they

1:06:47are just not serious enough to like make it happen. And you know, when you meet somebody who's serious, cause they don't, they don't have it all figured out, but you can feel in somebody when they're very serious about like, you just kind of know this person seems like they have this energy that they're going to make this happen. Even if they know nothing right now, even if they're on the wrong, actively on the wrong track and they've got mother's beverage and it's apple cider vinegar and they're selling it at farmer's market, but you can tell, well, I don't care where you start. The slope of that line is going to be crazy. If the person is actually like what I call a serious person. And I just think there's,

1:07:19most people are not serious people about the things that they're, even the things that they say they want to do. Yeah. And I think that they also, everyone asks for my time and my money. They want investment or 10 to 15 minutes to jump on it. I, I just, I don't have that time. Time is a luxury now. And so to your point, I want to spend more time with my kids. I want to like be present with my friends and live my best life. I can't be on Zooms for 40 hours a week, giving you guys advice with you to the point you just want that affirmation versus really getting down and, and, and like

1:07:52understanding how I can help them. So I choose who I invest in and who I spend my time with very wisely. And I hope that doesn't hurt people's feelings because people give me advice and time over the years and building Poppy and mother, but it's just, it's just this reality that we're in as well. But I think if I can't, you can do the right moment at the right thing, you asked the right question. Like I will help you. I'm not mean. It's like, you know, I want to give back and do all these things, but it's just, it's a tough position that, that, that

1:08:22people are put in. I have an embarrassing story of myself doing it wrong. Uh, I emailed the head of YC. So YC is like, kind of like our Mecca, it's our church here in Silicon Valley. It's like, okay, they're the best at incubating companies. The president of YC, I got his email, I emailed, Hey, Michael, uh, it's Michael Seibel at the time. Um, and I was like, Michael, I would love to add, you know, you could do this live streaming thing. I'm doing this live streaming thing. Would love to just kind of, Oh no, pick your brain. I said it. I would love to pick your brain. Yeah. I wanted to take him out to lunch as if he can't afford lunch. And I'm asking him for his time. And then he just replied like five seconds later, he goes,

1:08:57what's the question? Like, what, you know, okay, just ask your question right here. If you want the, if you're asking me for advice or for help, like just ask it right here. And maybe I could do it even faster for you. And I realized in that moment, Hey, I didn't actually have a crisp question. I think I just generally wanted like a good feeling and to feel like I wasn't like a loser who was off in the wrong direction. Secondly, like I wanted his time more than I actually wanted the help. Cause what he was saying was true. He's like, if you want the help, I could give it to you right now, or we could try to schedule something four weeks from now.

1:09:27And so I remember realizing that. And, um, I kind of never did that again. Like I took that whipping once and I was like, cool. If I'm ever going to ask somebody for their time, let me just ask them the question straight away. Let's see if that solves the problem. Because yeah, I would love to feel like I met you and I'm associated with you, but that's for me, that's not going to help my business, nor is it going to help that person on the other side of it either. Oh my gosh. The amount of times I've responded back and like, okay, what's the question? And then they, they never, there's nothing silence. Nothing. I think I saw, did I say, I think I saw somewhere, maybe it was wall street journal. You did a, did you say you do a million dollar

1:10:00vacation post exit? Is that right? Yes. It was a long one. What was the vacation? So I took like 20 of my family members and you know, for my mom and dad and my sister and their kids and my dad and Steven's parents and sisters. So it was a lot of people. And we went to four different places over a period of over a month. And it was just like our one big, like FU trip post exit. And I think a lot of people are like, what items did you buy? Like, I still don't even have a Birkin. Like they're like,

1:10:30what piece of this did you buy? You know, I'm like, I want experiences. I want memories. I want all these things. And so have we done that since? No. Are we going to do that every year? No. Was it even fun or was that like planning a wedding? You know? Yeah. 20 people. I don't think I would enjoy that. I have PTSD on it, but I don't want to sound like ungrateful, but yes. Cause then we're on there and you don't have, um, like it's so new within it. So you're still a little uncomfortable spending money too. And so you haven't worked through those emotions and then you're like, Hey, I'm going to the spa. And then seven people raise their hands. They want

1:11:02to go. Then I want to call making seven people's spa appointments. So yes, it was. And then you're like the reservations and the food and the travel of it all. So yeah, I would not recommend it, even though it was a once in lifetime thing and it was marvelous and very blessed. Where'd you go? We went to Tuscany, Lake Como, Montenegro in Scotland. There you go. Well, you actually, this sounds almost a little like silly, but you're, you're a very, you and Steven are both very fun follows on Instagram. You guys have a lot of fun. Do you have,

1:11:35this is the silly part, but how do you think about like having fun? Like, do you have a framework for your fun? Well, let me explain why. Like my, my wife and I just started doing like a, a very simple date night, but it's like on the calendar. And I'm like, Oh, we had to schedule this. I didn't think, I thought we could be impromptu, but we couldn't, we had to schedule this, but you've, you've amped it up. Like you guys look like you have a ton of fun. Tell me, it sounds like Sean was making fun of me, but you actually might have that.

Why fun is fuel for founders

1:11:59So I think somewhere along the way we were taught that being serious equals being successful and then we've, we were kind of taught that like fun is a distraction and that if you're serious, you should look serious and act serious and all of these things. And I'm so here to like throw that theory out the window. And I think it isn't a distraction. I think it's fuel. I think it's fuel for like not burning out in life. I think it's the ability to like, you should be having fun at work, should be having fun in your life. And it actually fuels that success. And so like,

1:12:31that's actually been something like me and Stephen talk about all the time is like the second we're not having fun, whether you're working hard, you shouldn't be doing that. So it's like all these people talk about hating their jobs and stuff like, Oh, that's such a toxic environment. I think it's like how we operated even at Poppy was it was fun. You know, the, the ability to put myself out there fully, awkwardly, authentically, like online and crazy dances. Like it was the culture within Poppy too. We were having fun. And so, you know, the other day someone was like, why do you talk like

1:13:01that? And your voice is annoying. And like, you are doing fit checks and like all stuff. And I was like, because I want to, and I'm a confident queen and I'm obsessed. And like, why does it bother you? Like you're not having fun. And so I think it's this ability to live life, not take it so serious. That's like, I don't know. Don't you guys feel that too?

1:13:24Preach. Yeah. You will. The, the part that I, I don't know if Sean struggles with this. The part that I got sucked into was like, to be successful, you have to be serious. And so like, I, I just started doing Instagram as well. And I feel it's very uncomfortable. I'm not used to have, I'm not this, this motion I don't love still. And it definitely is rooted in like, don't want to look too silly. But also in terms of non-social media, just running a business, there is like a be serious, be successful type of energy. And I think the bigger you get, the more, like if you look at

1:13:54what Sean and I used to say, like six years ago, when no one watched this thing, it was a little bit different than now. And I think that like there, you do fall in the trap of like, you have to be more serious as you get bigger. And you'll get more confident the more you do it. You know, you don't just become confident at the start. You start and confident catches up later. And so I think that it's funny. I pushed Steven to be online when we were post-exit. I think he had like a thousand followers. And I was like, you got to get out there. People need to hear from you. He is so smart. We did very different things at Poffee. I ran our creative brand, like all the fun

1:14:28stuff that you get to see. And yet he ran our entire innovation team and supply chain and all this stuff. And like the hardcore business side is why we make so many, such a good partnership. And I was like, your stories are so different than mine and entrepreneurs need to hear them. And I hired him a social team to run them and like help him get up and running and to take that lift off. So that all you need to do is sit down and talk to the camera. And at first he hated it. Now it's, he's honestly, he's better at making the time for it than me, if anything. So you just got to start. All right. Well, we appreciate you doing this. You're awesome.

1:15:00Thanks for coming on. Fun story. We've, uh, we've been buying your product for years and it's nice to have you as a friend now. We'll have you come back when you launch your new thing and we'll see if our predictions were, uh, we're close even. Blown away. You're like, oh my goodness. Why has no one done it and done it like this? Well, now I must know. Interesting. Yeah. Well, now my day's ruined. All right. We appreciate you.

1:15:21All right. That's it. That's the pod. I feel like I can rule the world. I know I could be what I want to. Uh, I put my all in it like my days off on the road. Let's travel. Never looking back. All right. Let's take a quick break. I want to tell you about marketing school. It is a podcast that is part of the HubSpot podcast network, and it is run by Neil Patel and Eric Su. And these guys are both marketers who are running businesses. And so if you want real world tactics from practitioners who are actually out there in the field doing it, this is the podcast for you. Check it out wherever you get your podcasts.