Episode 145: How Your Mindset Impacts Art Pricing: One-On-One Coaching with Jennifer Cupp

Introduction to Everand

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Honest Art Workshops

0:30Hi there.

Honest Art Workshops

0:30Are you an artist who's been painting for five years or less and you're wondering how you can get your art to that fine art status? Or maybe you're an artist who is looking for your voice and your signature style. And I'm here to tell you that's exactly why I created the Honest Art Workshops and we have them in gorgeous destinations all over the world. And in them we tap into you and to your voice. I only host a handful of them a year, three to five. So if you're interested in that, head to the link in the show notes to learn more.

New Podcast Format

1:07Welcome back to the podcast, everyone. I'm your host, Jodi King. And we're doing something a little different this time that we've never done before. But we are going to continue to do it because I think it's going to provide a lot of value for artists really globally. And that is we will once a month be doing coaching sessions, one-on-one coaching with the artists that we have in the Honest Art Society. So each month we'll be bringing on a different artist at different phases of their art career

1:39with different questions and different struggles that they have. And we'll be talking together. So they have generously agreed to come on and speak publicly about what they're struggling with privately.

Coaching Session with Jennifer

1:53And I'm going to help them out as best I can. So this week, I'm so excited. Our very first artist guest is Jennifer Kupp. And Jennifer started painting when you were 40. Is that right, Jennifer? That is right. Yeah. Never done anything like that before. Wow. Well, OK. So welcome, first of all. Well, thanks for having me. I'm super excited. Yeah. I'm so I was I was telling Jennifer before we got on here because of the in the Honest Art Society, which I should probably say is our it's a community of artists.

2:26It's a membership group. And in it, we've got artists and we talk about everything from making better art. There's art critiques. There's three monthly coaching calls. There's there's different forums. There's business tips. There's all kinds of different things in it. And Jennifer is from the Honest Art Society. And I was telling her when I saw that she wanted to be one of the artists to come on here, I was so excited because Jennifer is making moves. She's doing such, such cool things.

Jennifer's Background

2:57So so welcome. So tell everybody where you live. I live in Illinois and I am kind of centrally located between Chicago, Des Moines and St. Louis. So rural communities around me, but also some big cities. Yeah. OK, so a little bit of a background for people. So and this helps because like people can decide, like, can they relate to your experience? So give us a little background about you. So, yeah, so I started, like I said, started painting when I was 40.

3:27I had never done anything like that before. And a couple of years in, I decided I really loved it, but I wanted to do more of it. And it was hard with the ages of my kids at the time. And so I decided I could get up and drink my coffee and scroll my phone or I could be productive and paint. So that's kind of when I started the daily painting practice. And then, of course, after that, your art starts to really pile up. And that's when I kind of started looking into selling. Amazing. Amazing. And if I recall, you paint like early in the morning. That's my work.

3:57Yeah, usually from like 4 to 6 a.m. every day. Wow.

Pricing Strategy

4:01So I think this is actually incredibly important because, you know, when we think about what are some of the things that we do, like what are some of the leading indicators of sales? One of those is, can we look at how often we get into the studio and actually paint? And that doesn't seem to be a problem for you. No, hardly a day goes by. I mean, sometimes I have days where I can't get in there, but pretty much every day.

4:33Yeah. And so if you could, if there, is there like one overarching thing that I can support you with right now? Yeah, I think right now, my biggest, I guess, problem you could say is I'm starting to finally after eight years having some traction. I went to a couple art fairs last year and that was a game changer for me. That was something I had never done before. And I had tried online, Etsy, all these different things, but it wasn't until I went and I got

5:06in front of people that that's when I started to have buyers. I, you know, I've, I've tried building a local community of buyers, things like that, and it just hasn't clicked. So now I'm starting, you know, I've been so focused on it for eight years, finding out who is my audience. Now I'm like, okay, I found my audience. Now what do I do? Um, and so I think my biggest issue right now is how, what metrics do I need to look for? Like with my pricing, you know, kind of what steps do I need to take next? Okay. So as I understand it and you're having kind of the opposite problem that a lot of artists

5:43have, which is like, I'm not selling my work. You're having the problem is, oh my gosh, it was famine for so long and now it's feast. And like, like, can you keep up with the demand? Well, so I counted, um, to be prepared for today. So I painted 14 pieces in January and so far this month I've sold 11 already. Um, holy shit. That's amazing. So now it's not the same 14 that I painted, but like I added 14 to my inventory and 11

6:15have already left. So like, and I always jokingly, so like I already knew that my prices were low and it was never a confidence issue. It was more like monopoly money. Like it doesn't matter if you price it for a dollar or a hundred dollars, if no one's looking at it, who cares? And so now, so I always said, well, you know, once I start selling, I'll know that that's when I need to raise my prices. But now that I'm there, it's like, ah, you know, what reasons am I selling my art? And is it because I just have more eyes on me? Does that mean my prices are appropriate or inappropriate?

6:46You know? Yeah. Well, those are all great questions. And, and the thing is, is that when we cannot keep up with demand, that is always a good time to raise our prices. And, um, not only does, uh, raising prices like help us to sort of regulate that demand, it also protects your energy because you are, there's only one Jennifer cup and there's only one person on the whole planet that can do what you do.

7:19Just think about that. There's like 8 billion people on this planet and you are the only one that can do what you do. So that really takes away like the whole monopoly money idea and really hopefully shows you that the value of what you do should really, really be recognized. People are loving it. Now, the first thing I'm going to say is you need to raise your prices. Yeah. Right. Yeah. I was going to say, but I think you've already done that.

7:50Yeah, I did. When did you do that last? Um, well, so out of the second art fair that I did, um, I was picked up by a gallery and so she worked with me to raise my prices. Um, I think we more than doubled them, um, for the things that she took from me. And then after that, I raised them. So that would have been in like Christmassy time. And then I raised them again, kind of significantly, like by 20% in January, once at Christmas time and then once again in January, probably. All right. So, um, I think this really, obviously you still have not hit that point yet, but congratulations.

8:27I remember the first time, um, I was picked up by a gallery and she said, um, is it okay if I double your prices? I'm like, hell yeah, but it is a bigger decision because then you have to increase your prices. Yeah. Everywhere. Well, and that's an interesting thing too, because she's in Chicago and I'm in a more

Overcoming Fear and Mindset

8:46rural community, she's three hours from me. So it's like, that's another part of my pricing issue, I guess you could say is, you know, some of these art fairs. So like I'm going to one in downtown Chicago in April, those prices, I need to be way higher there. But then if I raise them to be appropriate for the big city, then what does that, is that still appropriate for like my online sales? So I'm like struggling with making sure that I'm priced across the board appropriately for galleries, for big cities, but also my everyday buyers.

9:18Does that make sense? Yeah, that makes total sense. So here's the shift that I'd like for you to take, or I would like for you to consider. Um, what I just heard you say is, um, you're really considering your pricing based on an external circumstance, right? And our pricing should be, um, an internal issue, an internal thing. So the quality of the work that we do is not determined by who the market is.

9:58The quality of your work is the quality of your work. Full stop. And if people are willing to pay that in Chicago, they'll likely pay it in London. They'll likely pay it in Miami. They'll pay for it in Austin. That is the quality of your work. And that is your price point. Ooh, that's so scary. Well, the reason it's scary is when this happens, um, this causes like an identity, uh, reflection

10:33and expansion. So now what we have to do is we have to step out of the idea that we are a hobbyist, you know, and we have to step into the space of, I'm a motherfucking artist. Like that is the identity shift that has to happen with you. And as soon as you are able to make that shift, Jennifer, the issue about pricing and changing it for this and that, it won't even, it will be a non-issue.

11:06And when people in, you know, as you said, in your community or any rural community, this is really so important because there's artists everywhere who are living in small towns. And who are dealing with the exact same thing that you're talking about and they feel like their community doesn't get it. So they, they have to, to change something. That's just an identity thing. Just, just because somebody doesn't appreciate the work you do does not make your work any less valuable. You've already got the proof.

11:38Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So that's, it's still, it's, of course it's scary. Of course it's scary. It's going to take courage. But the thing is, it probably took courage to raise your prices the first time. Well, no. And see, that's the thing that, well, because I'm a business owner outside of being an artist. And so it's every day normal to me to figure out pricing. And my background is I had a photography studio and I was a very high end photographer. So like charging appropriately and charging high prices isn't a hurdle for me, but the hurdle

12:13was just going for so long with no buyers that like you're, you have to assume it must be garbage. Like this must be terrible that it's not worth buying at any price. And so I think now the hurdle is just getting over saying, oh, well they paid that, but that's probably all they're going to pay. Like that's probably, that's the highest they're going to go. Like surely they wouldn't go higher than that. So I think that's the struggle. And also it's so scary because, um, you're like, well, you had a little bit of success, but then you raised the price and like, whoop, that was it.

12:46Now you're done. You know, now it's going to be eight years of famine again. Well, that's the fear. That's not the reality. Right. That's definitely the fear. Well, those eight years that you have spent, and I, I tell this to artists all the time. This is a long game. Yeah. It may, maybe not eight years, but it's a long game. You know, when, when I start working with an artist, it's usually two to three years before they really start like getting some momentum. Cause it's all about consistency. So for eight years, you were really, really consistent.

13:18And then now here we are. So that's the other part of the mindset work you need to do is know that that was building. That was planting all of the seeds. And now you are in a different phase of your, your art business, totally different phase. So now it becomes like, okay, how can I consistently bring in the revenue that I need? Right. Yes. Right. Because now it's feeling a little feast and family. Like I, um, knocked it out of the park at these art fairs, but now this year I'm applying

13:51for them and they're hard to get into when, if they don't accept emerging artists, you might not have the booth photos that they want you to have and things like that. So like, they're really, I'm getting a lot of rejections. And so, um, I think that's the next, it's like, okay, so how do I, it's very come and go. Yes, it is. It totally is. And being an artist is not for the weak. It takes so much courage to stay in this game and to, and to keep going. So let me ask you a question. Are you applying to the same fairs that you did before or different ones?

14:22Um, I will, those just opened up now. So right now I've been applying for like earlier in the year ones, those will be later in the year. So, um, I will, and I, I, I think I'll get back into those. Okay. But it's these other ones that I, and I have one coming up in April. That's huge, um, in downtown Chicago. So that's exciting. All right. So everybody, what's the name of the show? That one is called one of a kind. Oh, Oh, a K. All right. So everyone go to see, find, go find Jennifer cup at the one of a kind show in Chicago and

14:54let's show her, you know, let what it means to really support artists. Let's do that. That's awesome. Jennifer. I'm really excited for you. Hey, real quick while I've got you, I just want to tell you, I know that being an artist can be a lonely job and filled with self doubt. So artists need other artists and we need painting techniques and the skills to sell our art along with it. So that's why I created the best membership group of artists on the planet called the honest art society.

15:25And in it, you receive several coaching calls a month with me so that you can get your questions answered on business and on your art. You get monthly trainings from art techniques to marketing and business. You get exclusive art critiques as well as exclusive discounts on workshops and courses. And all of this is for only $47 a month and you can cancel at any time. So if you're ready to make your best art ever, along with a great community of amazing

15:56artists, I hope you'll join me in the honest art society and you can find out more at the link in the show notes. So you said something earlier that is so critically important that I want all artists to hear what you said, okay, what you said was for years, you had crickets, like nothing was really moving. But when you got your art in front of some eyeballs, when you actually got out there, that's when things started to move.

16:29And that is so critically important because when we look at what is going to get us farther down the road, we've got to look at what was working, right? So what was working and what was not working. And you know, the saying, I was just talking to Amy about this yesterday, the saying that the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and getting the same and expecting a different result. So what you did is you changed it, right?

17:00You changed what you did and that worked. So we need to stick with what works first of all, which is what you're doing. So I understand that those shows are not going to be until later in the year. And now you've got this one, but, um, it sounds like art fairs and exhibitions like that are going to be key for you to continue doing them. So it's just like, what I always suggest is, can you schedule something maybe quarterly so that that income can be a little more consistent?

17:30Yep. And that's what I'm doing. My, my hope was to at least get four this year. So we'll see where I shake out. Um, I have two in the spring. We'll see where I go, but yeah, that's my goal. Amazing. Amazing. I worked with an artist, um, last year, I think it was. Um, and she, uh, she broke finally broke over a hundred thousand dollars in sales for the year and it was done through art fairs. That's just bonkers. That, I mean, that's amazing. I can see how that can happen though.

18:02For sure. For sure. Yeah. So getting your art in front of people doesn't necessarily have to be a fair, but it's a great way to get a lot of eyeballs on you at once. Okay. So, so we're going to go back to pricing and we're going to go back to, um, like how can we create consistent income? So it sounds like you're going to need to raise your pricing across the board, even for your small town, you know? Well, and that's okay. I mean, I don't, I never have been able to build a local community of buyers.

18:33So when I say, you know, I had to step outside of my community, it was like really stepping out. And so, um, I'm okay with that, not finding those local. But I think for me, it's like, um, I did really well in Des Moines, but Des Moines is a different demographic than Chicago. So it's like making those, you know, prices connect. I think, so now it's like, okay, if that's the metric, then how do I know how much to raise? What do you go off of? Yeah. Okay. So the standard is somewhere between 10 and 30%. What makes the difference?

19:04So if you have, um, been selling your work and it's pretty consistent, um, but you're not necessarily having a hard time keeping up, but like you've been selling it consistently for a while, just costs of living, things like that, it's, it's a no brainer to raise your prices by 10%. Guess who notices when you raise your prices 10%. I would say no one, no one, exactly, I guess, exactly.

19:35Absolutely. No one, uh, notices, but we will completely freak out by something like that. Right. That's just unheard of. Okay. But if you've got like, you really can't keep up with the demand, a 30% increase, that's where those higher increases go. 20, 25, 30, something like that. That's where those increases really come in. It sounds like you've already doubled them, right? So maybe doubling them again is not going to be the thing, but to raise them somewhere

20:0720 to 30% would not be inconsistent with what's going on. And the other part of that. So like when I say I doubled them, I was charging $25. So like to say I've doubled industry standard, that's still very, very low. You know, it's like trying to figure out where to go from there. But truthfully, I mean, I was throwing a lot of my art away. I just didn't have anywhere to store it, you know? And so it's like, if I could get, Oh, that's so sad. I wasn't, I know people are always sadder for me than I am. It irritated me to look at it. Like it was more painful for me to look at piles of unsold art than to just take away and

20:40forget about it. But, um, no. So I guess if, if you're going to raise it, like, how do you know how to get to that appropriate price point? You know, that's a good starting point. Cause that, what I don't want to have happen is to where every two months I'm raising them. You know what I mean? It's like, where, how do I know where to go? Well, I always suggest looking at it every six months so that you're not doing this every two months. Um, and, um, and what we don't ever want to wonder, and I think this goes back to a bit

21:11to what you're talking about. What we never want to wonder is if our paintings are not selling because of price. Yeah. Like we never want it. We want to be able to stand so firmly in the price that we are charging. Yeah. That, so we don't, so that's what, that's what I would suggest to you is like, where is your personal threshold right now? Well, and I think some of it too is trying to determine, um, you know, it's like when

21:43I lay it out by like hourly wages and what I'm selling, it's like, even though I'm, I'm selling a lot when the hourly wages, the math is not mathing. Like this is not good. This is not sustainable, you know? And so then it's like trying to figure out what's a comfortable price point. You know what I mean? Like all that kind of plays into it too. Right. It totally does. And, um, anything that's, is going to keep you if, if, sorry, let me say that a little differently, if there's anything that's going to keep you from staying in this long-term,

22:16it's going to be, um, doing it and feeling like you're not being compensated well for it. Yeah. Like that, that's when we throw in the towel. We're like, this is, this is bullshit. I'm spending all my time doing this. I'm not making any money. Like we don't want to do that. Right. So like if, so where are you now? Where's your pricing now? Do you have a price per square inch? I do linear and my multiplier. Okay. Same thing. Yep. Is eight 50 or eight. Okay. It's not $8, but it's not like square foot.

22:47The linear, it's like a multiplier and my multiplier is 8.5. Okay. So, uh, what is the number that you would be comfortable raising it to today?

23:00Hmm. Jody.

23:04I don't know. I'd have to do some math. Like, let's just look and see.

23:11So right now my, like a 16 inch square canvas would be 270. Okay. I don't know. I still kind of feel like I'm playing with monopoly money. Yeah. Like it still doesn't really mean anything to me, you know? Okay. So a 16 by 16, is that what you said? Yeah. 16 by 16 is going to be 270. Um, what is the price that you can raise it to that you would feel super comfortable with?

23:42Like really comfortable, like easy, breezy, beautiful, no big deal comfortable with. Gosh, I mean, I want to say like 300, but I know that that's still probably not the right answer. Okay. Well, there's no right or wrong answer. That's the first thing. But what I was going to say is whatever number you came up with, I thought it was going to be around 300. And then I was going to say, whatever that number that is, you're too low.

24:13I know. I know that.

24:16And you know what's stupid is like when I had my photography studio, I was the most expensive in the area. And I had to say some really big numbers to people all the time. So like when you know your, like your cost and your time and you have employees, like you can spit those numbers out and stand firm on it because you know, this is just what it costs. Yes. It's art. It feels different. Yeah. I don't know what it costs. It's because it's so personal. Yeah. It's so much more personal for sure. Okay. I'm going to throw out, um, some numbers, right.

24:49And I'm going to ask you to tell me how they, how it feels. Okay. Three 50. Oh, that feels hard. That feels probably the number. Probably. And I think what's hard is, ah, you know, so like in one community that I went to, they were literally buying my art for their toddlers and strollers. Like literally a two-year-old pointing. I want that one, mommy. And they just buy it. And so then you know that like, okay, well that's ridiculous.

25:21Obviously that's too low, but then you're like, but what's the, what's the right? I don't know. So this is all going back to, this is, this is all identity work. It's, it's, it is all mindset. It's all it is. I have seen your work. If somebody is going to be paying two 75, they're going to pay three 50. All right. I'm going to write it down.

25:47So here's an experiment that you could do. Okay. Uh, first day of the show, price them at these higher prices and see what happens. Well, and I walked the show in December and I know I will be just way, way bottom lower than anybody else there. I know that. But, but, but, but I'm only going there for one weekend that, then I have the whole.

26:18Doesn't matter. That's the value. That doesn't matter. That is what people pay for the quality of your work. If you want to buy a Jennifer Cup original, this is the price of a Jennifer Cup original. Jennifer Cup is doing licensing. If you want to do, we'll get into that in a second. If you want something that's got a Jennifer Cup image on it, that is not an original, you will be able to do that. You will be able to have that. Right. But if you want a Jennifer Cup original, this is the price of her work.

26:54Whether you are in Chicago or you're in Des Moines or you're in BFE, doesn't matter. This is the price of a Jennifer Cup original. That's so scary. It's so scary because then I'm like, so then what? I go for one weekend, I knock it out of the park, but then I have the whole rest of the year where I'm like fighting to sell. You know what I mean? That's my fear, that I'll go, I'll make really good money for one weekend and then I have the whole rest of the year to figure out. Has that happened? It's too new. I don't know.

27:26I haven't had the opportunity yet. But has it happened? Not yet. No, it's just fear. It is just fear. That's all this is. But I'm so glad you're talking about it because mindset is the thing that holds us back. Yeah. I don't know if I mentioned this in the Honest Art Society, but I have a friend who used to be a gallery director. Now she just manages artists as an art consultant.

27:56And I was talking to her and she said, I'm like, what's your biggest struggle with your artists? And she said, oh, easy. Biggest struggle is mindset with my artists. Yeah. That's all. It's because it's coming from in here and it can feel easy to us. And if it's easy, then it must not be valuable because it's just easy. Yeah. It's not true. We've got to reframe it. Yeah. Yeah.

Consistency and Revenue Streams

28:20Okay.

Consistency and Revenue Streams

28:20So let's talk about consistency though, because that is the thing. That's the fear. It's like, okay, if we have this. So I always suggest to artists to be focusing on three different revenue streams. So you've got art fairs and now you have been picked up to be licensed. Yes. Congratulations. I'm so excited. It completely came out of the blue. They approached me and I'm just having a blast with it. Love this so much. And if you guys are interested in licensing, we did a podcast with Kat Cocolette a few, I

28:57think a month ago or two months ago, if you're interested in licensing, but I'm so excited for you. So licensing, when you get a good deal, by the way, definitely read the contracts, all of that. And the reason I say this is because I worked with one artist who, and this was in hindsight, it wasn't while I was working with her, but she was signed and her work was, it was in like TJ Maxx and it was on pillows and things like that. And when she got her check several months later, it was in pennies.

29:30It was less than a dollar because, and then when she went back and she read the contract, she had just been completely screwed. So if, if you've got a great contract and you're, you need to do it well, licensing can be such an amazing way to bring in consistent revenue.

29:50So, um, so you'll have two, you'll have two of the three, right? Yeah. And licensing is interesting. You're, that podcast was extremely helpful to me. Like it came at just the perfect timing. So I, I kind of knew what I was talking about thanks to that, but you know, that is another long game. I won't get paid out for that for probably a year, you know, cause I'm doing next Valentine's day is what I'm painting right now. So it's like, you're not going to get that payout for a while. Right. And then, but if you get a couple of things like that going, a couple of accounts like

30:22that going, and then it's just, it just becomes that residual and, you know, it just compounds is what it is. It compounds over time. So in the meantime, until next Valentine's day, um, what are some things that you can do to increase the likelihood of sales? Like, I know one of the things that you do really, really well is you show up on social media consistently, um, and, and you do that really well. Yeah. So, and that has been so interesting and I don't, maybe somebody, this will help someone.

30:55I don't know what shifted exactly, but there's something that happened when I went and did things in person that it shifted online. Like all of a sudden it made me legit. It's a very strange thing. Like, I don't think you should have to do art fairs, but for whatever reason, it like shifted people's perception of me. And now I'm getting online sales, even though I was posting every day, I had links, I had a store, I had everything like in place. Yeah. Now they're buying online. So it's, I don't know. I don't know what to make of that.

31:25No, it's, it, it all goes hand in hand. And this is why it is a long game. We are looking for legitimacy and legitimacy usually comes through third party recognition, right? So third party recognition is as easy as attending or being accepted to an art fair or to an art exhibition. And that creates legitimacy within our social media. And then what is our, what do we all want? We all want to be part of, like, we all want to be invited to the party.

31:56We don't want to miss anything. We get FOMO. Yeah. And when we, that's why I always tell artists put sold when you sell a piece, put sold because that creates FOMO. People are like, oh, wait, it's like, it's like the guy you didn't want to date anymore or the girl you didn't want to date anymore. And then somebody else likes him or her. And you're like, well, shit, now I want to, what, what am I missing? Right. Yeah. So that's why that worked that way. Yeah. Yep. So now I'm having online sales, um, which is great. And so this, it's interesting because I've been doing like a monthly drop system where

32:31every month I post, you know, the new pieces from the month prior and every month I have done that since July and I've never sold one single thing. And then in this last one, I had seven sales. That was the first time it's ever happened before. So that was super exciting. Um, but it's just interesting because a lot of them were like smaller pieces. So I've been painting bigger, but I'm not selling the big, big ones online. So just trying to figure that and kind of navigate that a little bit. Yeah. Yeah. And you can, you'll be able to know who your audience is.

33:02Those bigger ones will probably sell at any sort of in-person experience. Right. Well, um, I, I think that the key for you is going to be your pricing, getting that pricing down and diversifying your revenue so that we can settle those fears a little bit. Right. What would you suggest then for the third? So if I did art fairs and I'm getting the art licensing going the third, would you consider that to be online and just continuing in that stream or do you see it something different?

33:36Yeah, that's a great question. So when, when I talk about different revenue streams, like there's, I always teach like about 16 different revenue streams. Licensing is one art fairs is one exhibitions, that sort of thing. But email is one and social media is one. And you are excelling at both of those. So, um, like the monthly drop that you're talking about, keep doing that. People love that. If you happen to like, continue to look at your, um, your metrics, like with email and

34:09with social media, I know your social media is doing great, but like the, the metrics that I'm talking about looking at for email that I look at is, um, are people still opening them at the same rates that they were, you know, the, uh, you're a business owner, so you probably know this, but like anywhere from like 30 to 40% open or 30, 45% open rate is considered really, really good. If it starts dipping below that, you might start asking yourself why, um, the click through

34:39rates. If your click through rates go down, then that's something to maybe adjust as well. But it honestly, if you like the people that are on your email list, they love what you're doing. Yeah. Those are your tried and true. And so we're always focused on going out and getting more people and getting to the art fairs and bringing in more followers and more of this and more of this. And those people that are on our email list, they're the gold. Yeah.

35:09So be sure you nurture them and, um, give them exclusive, um, discounts or exclusive content or VIP. If they want to come to you to a fair and you give them a VIP experience before anybody else, they get to, they get to view the art before anyone else, like anything that you can do to nurture those people on your email list is going to serve you. Okay. So those are your, those are actually four. Yeah. Four different revenue streams to focus on.

35:40Okay. I like that. You're doing so great, Jennifer. Thank you. I'm trying and I'm working hard. I know you are. I know you are. And the thing is, is that you, uh, you're not treating this as a hobby anymore. You're really treating it as something important to you and like a true, true business. And that's, what's getting you and your consistency, your consistency is everything. Just so be careful of your mindset, like catch yourself, catch yourself whenever you catch, you catch yourself doubting that. Just remember Jody King said, I'm a motherfucking artist.

36:13And you deserve to be in the arena. Yeah. You really do. Thank you. Any other questions I can answer for you?

36:24These were, these were the good ones. These are the good. I think this, this really helped. Well, thank you for, for doing this and for helping so many other artists by being willing to. I know it's kind of an awkward in-between spot. It's like, you're not a beginner, but you're not really all the way there yet. And it's like, how do you navigate the middle? For sure. And that's inspiring to both ends. So that's amazing. So, all right. Tell everybody where they can find you. Okay. So on Instagram, I am just Jennifer Jane and it's J-A-Y-N-E.

36:57And my website is artbyjenniferjane.com. Amazing. And we will put those links to her website and to her social media in the show notes. So you don't have to remember this if you're driving, but also where else can they find you in Chicago, right? Oh, right. Yes. I will be at the one of a kind show. O-O-A-K is what they go by on social media, but it's right downtown Chicago. And it's in the, it'll have like the big booths with the hard walls that you get to hang your stuff on.

37:27And yeah. Beautiful. What are the, do you happen to remember the dates of that? Um, it's in April and I want to say it's the weekend of like the 26th. Okay. Amazing. Thank you so much, Jennifer. I appreciate you coming on. All right. I'll see you in the Honest Arts Society. I'll be there.

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38:22Week three. Now is the месте of work? New world clear vender. All right. Now is the place where I can see you. All right. Let's go out. Keep in Doctoral. All right. I want to mention you in the room now. Soon. You're we're we're right. Do you have to do the photo? Here we go. As soon as the рез calligraphy. Here's our machine. We're right right here. This cool thing. You're right. Here is mo flourigan. Looking at tons. You know. Here you go. Anytime. グ realize is extravagant. You have to do it. Howいつ have you got a big game?