How Ghosts makes history funny – without getting it wrong

Bringing Button House to the big screen

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1:05Stack more sales with the best converting checkout on the planet. Track your cha-chings from every channel, right in one spot. And turn real-time reporting into big-time opportunities. Take your business to a whole new level. Switch to Shopify. Start your free trial today. Over five series running between 2019 and 2023, the BBC sitcom Ghosts became a cult favourite,

1:38winning a devoted following for its witty blend of history and eccentric characters. So how exactly do you make history hilarious without mangling the facts? As a new feature film, Ghosts, The Possession of Button House, arrives on the big screen, its co-creator, writer and actor, Lawrence Rickard, aka Robin and Sir Humphrey Bone, reveals how the team brought the much-loved comedy characters back to life. Talking to Ellen Evans for this episode of the History Extra podcast,

2:09he shares the team's approach to historical accuracy and discusses how Ghosts has become an unexpected source of comfort for many. It's an absolute pleasure to be talking with you about Ghosts, The Possession of Button House. And so many of us on the History Extra team are huge fans, and I'm confident that many of our listeners will be familiar with the residents of Button House and have deep affection for them as well. But you've written this film with the intention that anyone who's new to the world can join in, is that right? Yes, yeah, we kind of wanted something. I think there's a lot of detail in there which will be rewarding for people who know the show

2:43and are coming back to it, but hopefully something that's accessible to all. That's been the plan. Wonderful. Well, you obviously know them well and know The Possess well as a writer, creator, executive producer. For someone who is meeting this unusual household for the very first time, how would you introduce them? It's a very strange world where, yeah, there were a couple of living people who acquired a house from a distant relative, and it turns out that it's haunted. And across five wonderful series, said the Unbiased Observer, we explored what that's like when your housemates are sort of seven dead people.

3:18And then at the end of the series, they moved out of the house because it is a horrible burden to try and run a giant country estate, particularly when there's lots of dead people around you. And so when the film opens, yeah, Mike and Alison have just moved out of the house and the ghosts are sort of returning to a state of eternal boredom and hoping that something will come along to relieve that. And then it does and sort of teaches you to be careful what you wish for. Yeah, it's a sort of prequel, isn't it, to this satisfying ending that we saw as viewers

3:49in the end of the TV show. Yeah. Was there any nervousness for you as a group of writers in reopening the doors for the big screen? A hundred percent, yeah. It's terrifying. I think we always slightly left a gap in that, you know, when the TV show ends, there's kind of a present day ending and then there's a flash forward to many years in the future. And so, you know, between those two time periods, there's something there to play with. But we were very sincere when we said when the show ended that it felt like that was it. And we were kind of trying to finish while it felt like we were still on a high.

4:23And then there was talk relatively early on about doing a film and we were all quite reticent because we felt if we were going to come back, why not just do another series? And so we kind of knew we'd have to find a story that justified going onto the big screen. And after about a year and a half of very gentle persuasion, they just sort of said, just get together in a room for a morning and have a chat. And if something comes up, great. And if it doesn't, we'll stop bugging you. And within about 20 minutes, we'd hit on this idea and we're all just really enthused

4:54and keen to get back and try and do it. And thankfully, it all came together. Oh, well, thankfully for us as viewers as well. I'm so glad that it is.

Inside the writers room and historical clashes

5:01And obviously your central concept is that there are these dead people who can in some way interact with the living world. And I'm not going to spoil anything for the film, but there's a bit of a new way, isn't there? So I want you to take us into the writer's room of Button House for a moment. And how do you go about bringing these various historical contexts and settings together? They should really clash, shouldn't they, on paper? But somehow it kind of all comes together. Yeah, I mean, I think most classic sitcoms to a degree, whether literally or figuratively,

5:32are like a family. And what you want is people who feel like they fulfill different roles, but you want as much clashing as you can get. And, you know, it's sort of, I suppose, the classic format is very, very unalike people forced together. And in some ways, ghosts is the distilment of that in that the most unalike people you can think of are literally people from different time periods where, you know, the very concept of society is so different from them. And the way in which they're forced together is they can't escape each other because they can't die again, they're already dead, and they can't leave the house because it's,

6:05you know, that's the place that they haunt. So in that sense, it's sort of quite a classic comedy format, but it's just sort of distilled and amplified by the fact that they're so different and their understanding about what society expects of them. So you've got people who are incredibly proper, like, you know, Lady Button and sort of having these very austere Edwardian values. And then you've got an incredibly corrupt mid-90s politician. And so, yeah, they kind of, they're an unlikely family. And I think there is a lot of love between them, but there's certainly a lot of

6:38grit in the oyster. Yeah, it's such rich soil to plough, really, isn't it? And I think what's amazing is that you can keep them thoroughly in their context and give them stuff to say that's so rooted in their own times, like, you know, Fanny and being before Women's Liberation, for example, or Julian saying stuff that he thinks he should be allowed to say. Is there a sort of rule book or a line that you sort of have to walk with these characters, or is it a bit fluid? Is anyone like, oh, we can't have Julian say that, that's a bit much even for him? I think the good thing about having the six of us is that we kind of police each other. And there's certain things we'll pitch in the room

7:11where it will get a laugh. And then once the laugh subsided, we go, obviously, we can't do that. And then there's other things where you'll kind of put something forward. And it might be a couple of people think it's okay. And then the others are like, oh, I'm not sure. And you find a slightly different way of doing it. And certainly, you know, there's some elements of innuendo and double entendre. And we always try and make sure that those don't become overwhelming and that they sort of bubble under and there's not too many of that sort of element in there. But yeah, I think if it gets to the point where all six of us feel like something's okay, then it probably is. And if the majority feel

7:46like maybe it's crossing a line, then we pull back and do something else. So sort of naturally finds its own line, I think. Yeah, that sounds like a really useful hive mind, a good collective way of working. Yeah, it's so helpful to have that. It just means that you relax the things, you know, if you're writing something on your own, and you're always sort of worried about how far you're going to go tonally, because there's something I think in the tone of what we've always done together, which is a little bit naughtiest kid in the class. But equally, the show was always pre-Watershed. So you never wanted to go too far, but you wanted to feel like it was slightly challenging and slightly

8:22anarchic. And so it's, yeah, to sort of try and always stay right on the edge of that line, I think is quite important to the tone of what the show became. The same with the film. Yeah, I think people have fallen in love with the tone and that warmth. And something I always appreciate as well as a history fan is just, you know, how funny the jokes are in the historical context. Do you have any moments where you can remember a historical fact or storyline where one of you has thought, oh, that's what Kitty would say, or that would be perfect for Thomas, something like that? Can you give any examples? Oh, I think absolutely. I mean, so much of it sort of bled through from the history,

8:55particularly the history of the house. I remember when the film crew, we did the episode where the film crew come to film in the house. Obviously, that's something that happens awful lot in West Horsley Place where we film it. But there's a reference in there to Henry VIII coming to dinner, which is something that's true of the house. You know, the fact that one of my characters, Humphrey, is a beheaded Tudor noble. When the renovation to the house went on, one of the things they found was this red velvet bag, which is depicted in various historical portraits as being

9:28what the widow of Walter Raleigh kept his head in. So, yeah, there's a lot of things that bled through from the history of the house. But also, I think we always tried to find stories that were bedded in the history of each character, particularly a lot of them, you know, Julian, it's kind of living memory. And so a lot of us remember the sort of politicians that we're referencing when you think about sleaze through the 80s and 90s, you know, but also that kind of literary set in Georgian

9:59England and the sort of rivalry there and the fact that Thomas Thorne has got this real jealousy about Byron. We look at them now as people who push forward a movement about romanticism or whatever it would be. But, you know, at the time, the very fact that so much literature came out of the fact that there were competitions between them and they were always trying to sort of, you know, this sense of one-upmanship. Outdo, yeah. Yeah, yeah, exactly. And so, yeah, keeping that rivalries and that sort of context in there as well. We're always pulling out little threads of the history, even though we're

10:32doing it in often quite ridiculous ways. Yeah, I mean, that's so plain to see. And I love the way in which you look at how history forms. And an episode talking of Thomas, the Thomas Thorne affair, you sort of layer over different perspectives about the way the character of Thomas died and look at it from different perspectives. And I think, you know, not to go deep too much, it's obviously a very funny episode, but also I just loved how it looked at who tells the history, how they tell it. Someone's always got a different perspective, haven't they? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think about that, it's sort of like it's, if you look at the Great

11:05Fire of London from Peep's diary, in some ways that's a definitive version of that, but that's one person's viewpoint and the way in which it presents Bloodworth. And there are characters within it who were presented in very definite ways. And there's always a little bit of context and a little bit of bias that comes with that. And so, yeah, that episode particularly, it sort of talks about point of view and what that does to your understanding of what you might think of as fact. I mean, as you know, as a historian, the facts are kind of fluid.

11:40And we found it, I remember, you know, back doing Horrible Histories, there were things that we presented as being factual and just in the short space of time, you know, 15 years or so since we started doing that show, there are things which we stated as being in inverted commas facts, which we now know aren't the case. Or we think aren't the case for now. Maybe new facts come along in 10 years' time and it turns out we were right the first time. So, yeah, it's always slightly in flux, I suppose. Well, yeah, like you were saying, maybe that the line of where those jokes land or have landed or will land in the past is always going to be a fluid thing. It'll change.

12:13Yeah, absolutely.

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Humanizing history through comedy characters

13:43I want to pick up on the fondness that most people have for these characters, which is extraordinary. And I should say, I'm talking to you as well, Robin has permanently changed the way we say moon in our house. Yeah, mine too. I wonder, you must get a lot of feedback from people who've obviously watched the show and loved it. And is there anything particularly that's sort of changed the way people might think about the past or think about history that you've come across? Yeah, I think, I suppose it human, you know, history to a degree feels remote. And not just like

14:15ancient history. Obviously, the Middle Ages is going to feel like a foreign country. But even just thinking back to the Victorians, when society was so, so different there, it can feel very, very remote and slightly alien, I suppose, in some ways, just bringing a face to that, and realizing that people were just people in the same way as we are now. In the same way as when suddenly, and I know that there's various viewpoints about the ethical side of this, but when you see a piece of archive footage, you know, particularly early Edwardian film or Victorian

14:49film, and it's been upscaled and colorized, that suddenly, you understand it in a different way, because it relates to now. And so, you know, having a character within a modern film, but from a previous era in history, it sort of humanizes them slightly. It makes it feel a little bit less remote. No, I totally agree with that. And on that note, I suppose, in the writer's room, is there any sense of, you obviously know these characters inside and out. Does anyone ever say, or has anyone ever said, Robin would never have done that? Or no, Kitty would not say.

15:23Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, all the time. And I think that's really good as well. You know, there'll be things that we'll pitch, where particularly, you know, if it's your character, one of the characters that you play, you might go, I don't know, that feels like that's right on the edge of what they do. You know, and occasionally, and I'm trying to think of an example now, but I remember Jim saying, or something that we pitched for Pat to do, and he'd go, actually, I think Pat would probably do the opposite of that. And equally, characters who present one way, like a lot of the time, Julian, even though he's morally bereft, doesn't like to present himself

15:54as morally bereft, likes to present himself as fine and upstanding. And, you know, that he's part of the gentry. Even without trousers. Yeah, exactly. I mean, he's slightly, yeah, his moral superiority is slightly debased by the fact that he doesn't have trousers on anymore. But yet he presents himself in a way where he thinks he's still got trousers on. He doesn't realise everything he said is being debased by how he looks. In some ways, it's easier for a character like Robin, because in some situations, he's like the family dog, and he's the most base

16:25and sort of simple character. And yet he's observed so much over the last 10,000 years that he can also be sort of deceptively wise and thoughtful. And so Jim always said he's sort of like having a joker in the pack, where just when you expect him to do the kind of base and stupid things, he does the wise and thoughtful thing and sometimes vice versa. And so, you know, he's a slightly unpredictable character. So for any writers who might head to the cinema this month and see ghosts on the big screen and

16:56think, oh, I would love to bring history to life in that sort of way. Obviously, working with this troupe of writers and actors that you have done for so long. Do you have any advice or words of wisdom for people who seek to approach history in this way with irreverence, with heart? Yeah, I think the thing that we found when we were going through doing Horrible Histories, where the instruction, the key instruction was we can't lie. That, you know, even though we're trying to make history funny, you never really want to say something which didn't happen. Or when you do have to say that, the comedy pushes you in a certain direction.

17:27A sign then had to come up to say, this is a bit silly. And so I think the thing that we found with doing something like ghosts is sort of not to have too much of that reverence, that you sort of want the backdrop to feel like it's factual. And that's something we've carried through into this film. And certainly something we did when we did our Shakespeare film, Bill, as well, that you kind of wanted all of the context to feel like it's real and genuine. And we did that in the flashbacks in the series of ghosts, but not treating anything with so much reverence that it

17:58felt like you couldn't have a little bit of licence for the sake of the joke. And so if we found something that was funny and meant that what happened in the historical context was then only 90% correct, we were like, that's okay. Sort of reverence and research, but never too much of either. That sounds like a good rule of thumb for any writers who want to know where to start. Is there any sort of aspect of history that you haven't yet been able to bring into, either horrible histories or ghosts that you think maybe, you know, or obviously a little bit more in the future now,

18:28something that didn't quite feel historical just yet and now feels like, oh, I could have a crack at that writing about that? Well, it's interesting. You know, I suppose what you think of as history, like my family have always been in classic cars, you know, that sort of through growing up and that's what my brother's company does. And that's always interesting that, you know, I used to sort of do some work for them when I was younger and what we thought of as being classic cars. Now, as a man in his very late 40s, by which I mean 50s, a classic car, you know, a car that I remember from being a kid. And so in that

19:04world, you sort of see almost year on year, a very definite marker of what is and what is not history changing. And I know it's always terrifying when you see these things on social media where you're suddenly told, remember this song? Well, it was 37 years ago. People go, what? That can't be true. And so you're always getting a new bit of history handed to you. And the downside of everyone getting older and time marching on is that you get new stuff to play with. And, you know, so suddenly the way in which people think of World War II, for example, you know, that's something that

19:37will soon pass out of being something to do with living memory and will be thought of in the same way as we think of the First World War or the Victorians. And the reverence with which you should treat things changes as things become slightly more distant. And that's always sort of interesting for comedy, that you've suddenly got the potential to lampoon stuff that might have felt like needed to be treated with a little reverence when you were closer to those things. You know, there'll be a lot of things in Blackadder, for example, that you wouldn't have done if that

20:07was a show being made 20 years after the period it's dealing with. But you get far more license as you start to get that gulf of time. Yes. And more of that fluidity at play, as you said. And I can't wait to see what happens next with the Ghosts crew and beyond and which gadget Robin will be able to influence next as well. Yeah. Yeah, no, electronics is an interesting one. Yeah, he does get to play actually in the film. He does get to play with a couple of new things. Yeah, for sure. Lucky Robin. Okay, so thank you, Larry, for all of those insights into the

20:37writer's room. I hope people have got a really great sense now of Buttonhouse and its inhabitants. But quickly, before my final question, if there are any listeners who want to get to know them a little better ahead of the film, I wonder if we can do a quick fire round with you. Would you be up for

Quick fire round with the creator

20:50that? Yeah, absolutely. Great. Okay. So which ghost is most likely to cheat at cards? Julian. He would cheat at everything. Which ghost is most likely to be picked first on sports day? Probably the captain because he keeps himself in good shape. A lot of physical jerks. In good, Nick. Who would give the best Christmas present? I think probably Kitty. It would be very weird but incredibly thoughtful. Yeah. Best ghost to be stuck in a lift with? Oh my God. I think they would all be terrible. Not Thomas. Absolutely not.

21:21Not Julian. Do you know what? I'd say it'd be a draw somewhere between Robin and Pat. Robin would keep you entertained and Pat is just the nicest human being. Yeah. Particularly if you had a phone that could play out music. I feel like Pat would have a great playlist. Yeah, that's true. Yeah, that would be massively handy, wouldn't it? Pass the time. Definitely. On the musical note then, who would start the next TikTok dance trend? Oh, Kitty. 100%. She would love to do that. She's already ready to go. Oh my God. Kitty would be all over TikTok. And finally, who would make the best historian?

21:52Ah, I think the captain would love to be given that job, but possibly Thomas. And as with all the best historians, he would put a very definite bent on it that suited himself. Byron, for example, would not be painted in the most positive light. Not come across well. And then Robin would be fact-checking behind him saying, I was here. I saw it all. Yeah. Oh, that's true. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He'd have known an awful lot of stuff firsthand. But I imagine he can only remember about 10% of it. Yeah, fair. He's got other things on his mind.

22:23Yeah.

Grief, comfort and the film release

22:24Finally, Larry, I think some of us can maybe feel perhaps a larger sense that we're, you know, sometimes bystanders in the world or unable to influence the bigger picture. And anecdotally, we know from our listeners that sometimes a connection to the past can really help alleviate that feeling in some sense. And writing the ghosts, the wonderful ghosts that we know and love, this sense of powerlessness and a finding meaning connection despite this, is this something you consciously pulled upon or came out as you were writing? Is there anything there in that idea? Yeah, I mean, I think so. I think it was always very interesting, the very concept of ghosts itself,

22:59that it sort of humanised that idea that we're dealing with people who've moved on. And that obviously feels remote. That's people entering into the thing that no one knows anything about. And I was sort of surprised. An awful lot of people came up and spoke to us at, you know, various events and found it incredibly comforting when they lost people. That then when you think of someone who you love moving on, that one of the things they thought about was the warmth of tone

23:31and the interest and the fun of the way that we present it. And they know that it's not, we're not suggesting it's a factual document, but in some way, it sort of felt like a comfort for that to be the thing you conjured up when you thought of moving on to the next plane, rather than it necessarily being a dark nothingness that there might still be fun and adventure and warmth and companionship. And we hadn't really thought of that. And a number of people who were going through that difficulty of grief said they

24:02found it incredibly comforting, which is lovely and very rewarding. But yeah, that was certainly something that was not by design. I totally understand that, that comfort and the warmth that comes from it as well. We just know these characters so well, and it's so wonderful to see them on the big screen reunited again. Any final thoughts or tidbits you'd like to offer our listeners, Larry, as they head to the cinema to see it? I just very much hope they enjoy themselves. I actually, I watched the film in its totality with an audience for the first time yesterday, with my heart in my mouth, as you always do,

24:35watching something you've written for the first time. But it's such fun and to hear so much laughter, but also people cried, which, you know, you always hope there are those moments of pathos. And we always had those going through the TV show. And we really wanted that to be an element of the film. And equally, there's a real sort of punch the air moment within it. And it was so good to feel in the room that that moment really landed, which was a huge release. So we're really proud of where we've ended up with this film. We just really hope that everyone enjoys it.

25:07That was Lawrence Ricard, the co-writer, creator, and executive producer on the new feature film, Ghosts, The Possession of Button House. He was speaking to Ellen Evans, and the film will be released in cinemas in the UK and Ireland from the 23rd of October. Running a growing business means doing all the things, campaign things, pipeline things,

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