The Bayeux Tapestry: secrets of the stitchers

Stitching the Bayeux Tapestry

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1:50The Bayer Tapestry is headline news at the moment, as it's on display at the British Museum. One of the many unanswered questions about the tapestry is how long it took to make. We assume it was stitched by English women quite soon after the events it depicts, the Norman conquest of 1066, but we can't say for certain. Mia Hansen has been stitching a full-size replica for a decade now, and her experience can help us understand how the original embroidery was actually made.

2:21In this episode of the History Extra podcast, David Musgrove caught up with Mia to find out what we can learn from her years of close attention to the tapestry. So today I am really pleased to be joined by Mia Hansen, somebody I've been wanting to speak to for a while, because she has been engaged in an amazing project, making a replica Bayer Tapestry all on her own for some years. And she's written a book all about it, Embroider the Bayer Tapestry, which we will talk about as well.

2:52So Mia, tell me about your sort of story with the tapestry. When did you decide to start making your replica?

Starting the ten year project

3:01I made a decision at the end of 2015 when I got really bored. We used to do Viking reenactment, and when we stopped doing that, I was making the clothes for people who were still doing it, and I had no orders coming in. So I was making, you know, hats and hoods and glove puppets, and in the end I made finger puppets because I've run out of fabric. And when I made my 40th finger puppet, I thought, you know what, I need a project I can't finish in a hurry, because I got bored thinking what to do next. So I did some calculations.

3:33If I worked five hours every single day, I would come in at 10 years, and I thought, that's perfect. I will never have to think, what should I do tomorrow, because I already know I'm going to be working on the Bayer Tapestry. So I just did. Brilliant. So when did you start? I started on the 16th of July 2016, because it took a while. We had moved, you know, a few hours up north from where I normally buy fabric. So to find the right fabric and then to get the wool I needed and everything, it took a bit of time.

4:04So by then I got all the material I needed. I had washed the fabric and it was dry, and I had cut it, and I could finally start stitching. So 13th of July, 10 years ago, that was the day. And that's the day I would like to finish, if at all possible, next year. Perfect. So can you describe your setup for me? How do you make it work? Are you stood in a specific room? Are you using a frame? How does it work? Oh, no. I haven't used an embroidery frame or a hoop since I was 15 in school.

4:37We had textile in school back in Sweden. So I needed a fabric that was thicker than the original because I needed the fabric to hold its own, basically, when I just hold it freehand in one hand and stitch with the other. So I sit kind of curled up in the corner of the sofa with the embroidery on my lap. So the bit I've done already is rolled up on one side and the bit I haven't done is rolled up on the other. So I only have a small section on my lap and then, obviously, my laptop on the armrest

5:07so I can see the Bay of Museum's panorama slideshow so I know what I'm stitching. Ah, OK.

Mapping designs onto the cloth

5:13Let's talk about how you're actually getting the design onto the backing cloth then. So we kind of assume that the original embroidery was somebody sketched some sort of tracing onto the linen, maybe, and that was what the embroiderer has worked off. How are you deciding what you actually transmit onto the cloth? Well, I used David M. Wilson's book, The Bay of Tapestry, because that's the largest images I can find. I can't use the Bay of Museum's panorama because, obviously, you can zoom in and zoom out and then you can't measure that because I never know if I've done it the right size or not.

5:47So I used the book and then I measure every single inch. So if you have a person, for instance, I would measure the bottom of the clothing from the bottom, I would say, from the baseline, which is the borderline, and then also from the side. So I get a point and I mark that point with a pin and then I measure other key points and then I draw it freehand between those. So it's kind of hard to explain, but basically, measure, pin, measure, pin, draw. OK, so you're about 10 years in and 60 metres, is that right?

6:21Yes, yeah. So a little less than 10 metres to go, and that must mean that you're in the midst of the battle. Yes, I am. When the horses start toppling over, I really don't like this section, I have to say. Many people have told me, oh, that's my favourite section. I thought, how could it be, you know? There's actually a dead or dying horse in the border by the look of it, and yeah, it's quite harrowing. Yeah. So I try not to think what I'm stitching. I'm just looking at the wool on the fabric, not what the image actually is, if that makes sense.

6:51OK, it does. I want to come back to that in a second. But OK, so what I really want to know is what we can learn from your experience, what we can sort of guess about what was going on in the 11th century and how the embroidery was created by you going through a similar process. So are there any obvious learnings that have cropped up to you?

Evidence of multiple medieval hands

7:11Yes, absolutely. To me, it's very clear that there were several people involved. And most likely, there's two different scenarios. Either they had more people joining over time, or some seamstresses or embroiderers just never got any better. Because you can see throughout the embroidery that there's quite crude work mixed in with really, really good needlework. So I would assume that's a new, you know, an apprentice or someone new joining the team.

7:43Or, you know, Mildred in the back row saying, well, it's my turn now, I'm going to do, you know. And then she does her crazy bit. But yeah, there's big difference in skill levels. That's interesting. So how far can you identify sort of individual hands, do you think? I wouldn't hazard a guess to how many there were. But I would say, if you have a big ship, for instance, I would say four people worked on that ship at the same time. Most likely, you know, two sitting at the bottom of the fabric and two sitting at the top.

8:15There is one ship in the beginning, the English fleet, going to Normandy, for instance. So on the left-hand side of the mast, there is a man, he's got no facial features at all. He's the only man on the whole Bay of Tapestry that doesn't have a face, because he has a rope running through his head, basically. And on the other side of the mast is exactly the same scenario. But that man does have a face and a rope. To me, that's very unlikely for one person to treat two figures that differently. And then obviously, you have people sitting opposite on the crossbeam on the same ship.

8:50On the right-hand side, you have, you know, yellow, green, yellow, green. And then on the left-hand side, all of a sudden, it's yellow, green, yellow, green. And then there's two red marks. Why would you put two red marks on one side? To me, that's one person saying, well, I'm going to put my mark on this and say, I did that. I don't know that, obviously, but I've seen things like that. And I find that particularly interesting when you put something extra in the embroidery just to mark it as yours. Yeah, no, that's really interesting, because that's one of the big sort of conversations about the manufacture of the embroidery, isn't it?

9:24It's about how far the individual stitchers had agency over what they were doing. So you think they were maybe able to kind of freestyle a bit, presumably within the confines of this sort of broader design that somebody must have created and transmitted onto the lineage? Yeah, I'm pretty sure that somebody else has made the template for the main panel. And then that template has been brought into the workroom, let's say, you know, transferred with a prick and pounds method, which was very common in those days.

9:54Tell me about that. What does that mean? Well, if you imagine that you have a big sheet with a pattern on and then you have a sharp instrument, possibly a needle or some sharp tool, and then you make holes along the lines. So if you have a horse, you would do the outlines and just prick holes along that. Then you have a pouch filled with very fine charcoal dust and you dot that over the template, over the holes. So when you move the templates, you're going to have little dark marks along where those lines would have been.

10:28So there'll be marks on the fabric. You then, very delicate because that's now charcoal dust, basically. And then those are the dots that you follow with your embroidery. Now, the question is how much of a pattern that they pricked and pounced. So would they just do the outlines and then freehand, you know, maybe with a piece of chalk or something and draw freehand? I honestly can't even guess. Sometimes it seems like they have done and maybe they've got a little bit confused thinking, oh, what was it meant to look like?

11:01And they just wing it. And sometimes it's really accurate. So I honestly can't say. And that bugs me because I really want to know. Yeah, I think we all we all want to know. I mean, these are the these are the questions we need to establish. So just in terms of sort of the team effort there. So you've kind of described that you think maybe four people working on on a section at a given time. Yes. What sort of working environment do you imagine they're in? And do you think they must have had a frame that they were working off and sort of sat in, I don't know, some workroom, presumably with the sort of the linen stretched out so they could all work across it?

11:35Yes. Yes, absolutely. I just have it scrunched up in my hand. But if you work several people on the same piece, it has to be stretched out. You can't have that on your lap and make it look good. Not several people at the same time anyway. So imagine like maybe like a giant mouse trap or something or stretched out because I have seen frames from that time or people replicating them where they stretch like stitch into the fabric and then into the frame, like around the frame. Which to me is a really dodgy way of doing it because if you stretch that too hard, you're going to pull the fabric and you might rip the edges.

12:11So I would prefer personally if that was just clamped into something. But I honestly don't know. I haven't done that sort of research. I can imagine like a big reel on both ends of it. So when you move it, you roll it up on one reel. That's the finished bit. And then you kind of unleash the fresh fabric from the other reel.

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14:31Avatar Fire and Ash, now streaming on Disney+. Rated PG-13. So the embroidery, just for listeners as a reminder, so it's composed of this kind of main central frieze with the Latin captions that sometimes run across and then the two borders above and below, which have different things going on. What's your sense about the timeline in which those different bits were stitched? Do you think they're all put together at the same time? Can you make any observations on that from your experience? Well, I think they were all done in one go. So let's say that you have a week to work on a section. I have tried to think how long would this take for a team and I just can't work it out.

15:07So you have the pattern for the main panel and you stitch that. And then when you finish your section, then you are responsible for the border above or below, depending on where you sit. So sometimes it's very clear that that border is connected in one way or another to the main panel. Sometimes it's not. I mean, we have the fables, for instance, the Aesop fables. And I can imagine that they're, you know, they're telling stories while they work because, you know, why would you sit quietly?

15:37Somebody is going to know these stories and they tell them and say, oh, I really like that one. So I'm going to stitch that on my piece of border. And that also makes me think that they have new people because some of these fables come more than once. You have the fox and the crow and the piece of cheese. I've seen that three times. So why would you stitch that again in a different way, totally different hand, you know, 10 scenes away? Is that a new person? Do they not remember that they've done it or is it a totally new team by then?

16:10And then why would you do it yet again a third time? So to me, they are done at the time. And some of those are not actually finished. You can tell that they're quite rushed. Some of the infill hasn't been finished because everyone else was done and it's time to move on. I thought, oh, well, I'm not done yet. Well, never mind. Nobody's going to notice. Let's move on. Yeah, this is great.

Hardest sections and hidden mistakes

16:30I mean, these observations are so good coming from you because this is experimental archaeology, isn't it? Essentially. So it's really good to get this sense about the reality of making something like this. I wonder, what are the hardest bits to stitch? And do you see that they kind of try to cut corners at any point to get round difficulties? Well, yeah, they cut corners with legs. You know, there's never enough legs. I've figured out that if there are four or more men or horses, there will never be enough legs.

17:01Right. And I'll challenge anyone to tell me differently. But they make it aesthetically pleasing, basically. So things like that. But to me, that's not cutting corners. That's just making it look good. For me, I want to cut corners, but I don't think they did. I've had to do it when it comes to the stitching of fingers and faces, for instance. They did really, really delicate stem stitch. If I do that with my wool, perhaps my wool is a little bit thicker, but I would have sausage finger and a blob face, and that's not a good look on anyone.

17:33So I have to use a different stitch to actually make that look good. So don't tell anyone. And they've also used stem stitch on the chainmail, which, again, I can't do because it would fall over, fall in on itself. So, yeah, I honestly, I think they just use magic. Because I can't make it work. So they were good then, or at least some of them were good. Yes, absolutely. Some less so, by what you're saying. Oh, definitely. But you will notice that there's a couple of horses when Harold comes back from Normandy

18:07and he goes to see King Edward. If you look at those two horses between the ship and the palace, they are really quite shocking. Right. And when they, one of them in particular, the front one, I think is a yellow one. The look on the head of that one, it's, oh my God, that's an embarrassment. I feel desperately sorry for that horse. And whoever stitched that one was not a very good embroiderer. You then have a horse, when the Normans come to England, there is a blue horse, one of the

18:37first ones. And I call it the T-Rex horse. The back of it is perfect. But the front of it is like the template actually slipped when they did a transfer. And they had marks where they really didn't want marks. And you can't erase them from the fabric. So they had to stitch them. So it's got a huge chest. It's so big that the breastplate from the saddle actually sits like a necklace. And the two front legs are like the T-Rex arms. If that horse was to put those hooves onto the ground, that rider would be history.

19:12And then you've got a really nice face, you know, really lovely head. So if you look at that, you know, something's gone terribly, terribly wrong. And there was no way of changing it once the marks were on the fabric. So, yeah, I feel sorry for the purpose of stitching that. Yeah. When you've been working through it, you've sort of talked about a few things. But I wonder, are there any little bits of it that you have noticed that you don't think anyone else has spotted? Or any little sort of secrets that you have identified? Well, I can ask you, have you noticed when a belly actually turned into a saddle?

19:47No. Tell me about it. This is in the battle. And I think it's William. If I remember correctly, it's where William is asking where Harold is on the battlefield. Right. Yeah. So you know which image it is. And he's got Odo sitting behind him on a blue horse, I think. And I believe William is on a yellow. Right. So if you look at that one, the saddle is red. And what happens when a rider sits in a saddle, he leans forward a bit and his belly is hanging out. That's a very, very common feature on most of the riders.

20:19Here, what's happened is the person that stitched the thigh continued the thigh line all the way up to the forearm instead of stopping it when the belly is bulging out. So she literally cut the belly off. If she had stitched that cut-off belly, filled it in with chainmail, nobody would have noticed. But she didn't. She extended the red from the saddle up onto that belly. And there is no other saddle on the entire tapestry that has that bit sticking up.

20:52That is the man's stomach that has turned into a saddle and is red. Brilliant. I'm going to go and look at that once we finish this conversation. That sounds great. Yeah. And when you've seen it, you can't unsee it. But anyone I've showed it to have gone, what? No, I've never seen that before. OK, I wanted to come back to the point about the original embroiderers and how far you can feel their presence when you are working through your embroidery work.

21:23There's this really famous scene at the end, which you must have done by now, which is of the woman leading a child away from a burning house. And we kind of look at that and we think, you know, maybe that is someone's direct lived experience. Maybe one of the embroiderers who was working on it kind of knew someone who had suffered that fate or indeed maybe had suffered that fate themselves. So you kind of look at that and you feel like you can get an emotional attachment to it. Have you found sort of examples like that as you've been working through where you kind of feel like you can get a sense of the people behind the original embroidery?

21:57Yes. In a way, I mean, that one there made me really quite angry. But then if we assume that somebody else has made the template, that means somebody else actually drew that. So I wouldn't say that the embroiderer added that because it was a lived experience. Yeah. Because why would she add something to someone else's template? But by all means, you know, it could have happened, you know, she could have lived that. And then seeing that on a template and I think, oh my God, I need to embroider that.

22:28That's really quite harrowing. And that must be horrific. When I studied the tapestry before I even started stitching, well, before I got that far, I saw that one. I thought, oh no, what if that was me? Because I tend to do that a lot. What if that was me? What would I have done? Well, I would have got a long shafted skillet and I would have whacked him because you do not do that to people. So I drew that and I added it to one of my colouring books because that just had to be done.

22:58I had to give her that power, basically. Obviously, if it was happening in real life, maybe I wouldn't have done that, but I would have definitely wanted to. So yeah, I think some of these must have been really, really difficult for people to actually stitch. I mean, I'm finding it difficult now to do the upended horses. I don't mind the beheaded men. They rode into this battle knowing that might happen, but the horses, they had no choice. And I find that very difficult. You're not the first person to make a replica.

23:29Sort of famously in the 1880s, the Victorian ladies of the Leek Embroidery Society made their replica, which is now in Reading Museum and is a great thing to look at. And there was, I think, 35 of them and it took them a year to make it. Did you take any inspiration from them? Not necessarily. I mean, obviously, I knew about that replica and I would like to go and see it, but you know what? I'm kind of just a one-man band, you know? I don't want to look at anyone else's work and say, oh, you know, is mine going to be comparable to that one?

24:00Because I am incredibly competitive, so I'm better off not looking at other people's works until I'm done. Because again, I might just unpick my work. Yeah. When I finish mine, then I want to go and see it, but not really before. Okay. So you haven't followed their lead in removing the graphic nudity, or at least it wasn't the women who did that by the way, it was the men who colourised the photographs that they were working off. But you've kept to the original, you know, penises and all. I'm Swedish, of course.

24:28In Sweden, we don't mind nudity. So yes, of course, I've kept it the way it should be, like the original.

Designing a modern replica

24:35Tell me about this project you're working on for Mastercard, making the PAYO tapestry. A good little media skit they've come up with there. Yes, that was pretty cool. They contacted me and asked if I would be their creative director, and I thought, what? And I said, well, I don't know anything about Mastercard, but well, I have one, and of course I use it and I shop with it. But they wanted to use children's drawings as inspiration for the history of money and shopping and then into the future. And they wanted me to make an input and work with a designer to make sure that it was in

25:11the style of the PAYO tapestry, obviously not exactly the same. I didn't really know what they wanted me to do. But when I started thinking about it and I said, you know, you need the pointing fingers, which are incredibly important. You want the tall figures. You want them to command the space. And then they wanted the scenes to kind of melt into each other seamlessly. And I said, well, the way to do that is to use a scene divider, like vegetation or buildings. But if you want that seamlessly, just to continue as a continuous story, just put a person in

25:47front of the building. So the building would indicate this is the end of one scene and they're walking into the next. And they took that advice and they made actually a really, really stunning piece. It was flattering because they used my expertise. And I'm thinking, I'm not an expert. I'm just, you know, me in the corner of my sofa. But by now, I'm possibly a little bit more than that because I know the tapestry intimately. And I think that's exactly what they were after. I mean, I would disagree with you. I think you are an expert because you spent so long looking at it.

26:18And you've just described that, you know, a bit that I certainly haven't spotted. And I've, you know, co-written a book about it. So I think you underplay your expertise. But I wonder, like, so that MasterCard thing is just one aspect of a general sort of media fascination with the tapestry and the power of its storytelling, I suppose. So what do you feel about kind of the media hullabaloo that's surrounded the fact that the tapestry has come back to the UK? Well, for me personally, it's turned my life quite busy and very surreal.

26:50I was doing, you know, five interviews a week minimum with three displays of the 60 metres up at the hall locally with photo shoots. And I learned to smile from the camera to the point where my cheeks were hurting. So for me personally, it was, yeah, it turned my two months was nonstop. But I think I see it as a giant wave, almost like a tsunami. It's just taken over the country and people are riding this wave, just surfing it in the

27:22most spectacular way. So you have, obviously, the payer tapestry. There was the bayou tapestry, the one with the sheep. Yeah. And then there was the beer tapestry. You know, there's so many now that's cropped up. And for how long have they been working on these unless they've been machine made and done quite quickly. But even so, it sparked such a creative wave, basically. And I just love that because people are normally so technical and all the IT and the AI and everything

27:58like that. That's been the main focus for so long. And now people are knuckling down with needle and thread and coming into my world, which is really quite exciting. Yeah, no. And I saw a news report the other day saying that stitching as a craft activity is seeing a real boom because of all the chats about the bear tapestry. And of course, people can use your book, Embroider the Bear Tapestry, to get into it, can't they? How would you advise somebody if they wanted to start trying to emulate your work in some way? I don't think everyone should embark on a 10-year odyssey to make the replica.

28:31But how would you sort of inspire people and advise them to do something? I would say start with something simple. I mean, I did make a book, Embroider the Bear Tapestry, and I was very adamant when they said, well, can you tell people exactly how to do it? And I said, no, I will not do that because embroidery should be creative. It should be fun. And if anyone tells you, you must do this, you must follow these rules, then stop listening to those people. You need to find your way of doing it. And I have tried to tell people how I do it, you know, tips and tricks.

29:05So if they want to use that advice, they can. But I made very clear, you don't have to look at my work, get inspiration from it, but make it your own. And then I made full scale patterns that you can just iron onto your fabric. And if you've never done it before, start with a bird or a beast from the border, like a dragon, and then work your way up to the big one. If you start with a palace, for instance, with people in it, and you feel, oh, actually, this is a bit tricky, you're going to kill the joy.

29:36Build your way up to something big instead. Brilliant. It's really interesting to chat to somebody who's been so intimately associated with the tapestry for years. And I do think by doing that, you do discover things that nobody else has noticed because you're looking at it in a very different way. So I'm very grateful to you for your time. Any last points that we should have talked about? Anything you particularly think people should know about your work? About my work? Well, if you want to follow it, I run a Facebook group called Mia's Bayer Tapestry Story. And that's where I share all of my work, all the little discoveries.

30:10And we talk a lot about there's a lot of humor. So if you don't like humor, just stay well clear, because I'm going to get on your nerves. But I share everything on there that, you know, to me, boring, just progress updates. But people find that quite fascinating. And I show all the tiny stitches. I show the backside. I show the mistakes I come across. I share my own mistakes. And when I stitch myself to the fabric, which I've done a lot. And all the news, anything connected to my project, not to the Bayer Tapestry as a whole,

30:43because there are plenty of other places to learn about that. But if you want to follow, it's an open group. You don't have to join. You can just lurk. I like lurkers as well. And you're most welcome. Well, we will put that in the notes on this episode so people can check it out. I think you've got quite a few people. And you've got 15,000 people, is that right, in that group now? Oh, 16,200 now. Wow, amazing. So it's a popular community. And I'm in it. I lurk and see what people say. So it's interesting. And when exactly are you going to finish your embroidery so we can come back and just check

Deadline for the final stitch

31:13that you've met your deadline? Well, I want to finish on the 13th of July, 2027. However, I only average six metres a year. So that's going to be a push. But, you know, who needs sleep? But I will, at the latest, finish by the time the Bayer Museum reopens after refurbishment. OK. Because I believe, and obviously I don't know, but I believe that's when they start the celebrations for William's millennium anniversary and have to ride that wave. Brilliant. Mia, thank you very much. And carry on stitching. I will, definitely.

31:44That's the rest of my day.

31:54That was Mia Hansen. Her book, Embroider the Bayer Tapestry, is on sale now.

32:13This podcast is supported by Anthropic, the public benefit corporation behind Claude. Everyone's got a hard question about AI. Anthropic was built to surface those questions and share what it finds along the way, because there's hope in hard questions. Ask yours at claude.ai slash spotify and keep thinking. That's claude.ai slash spotify. I see you.

32:44Avatar Fire and Ash is now streaming on Disney+. It's the film critics are calling the best Avatar yet. Go, go, go, go. A true epic and completely jaw-dropping. This is the only purest thing in this world. Return to Pandora on Disney+. It will be an adventure for the whole family. And watch the Oscar-winning phenomenon at home. This is sick!

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