The Bayeux Tapestry blockbuster at the British Museum

Introduction to the series

0:00What can we learn from history's most powerful people? Join me, Mike Souter, author of NextGen CEO, in History Extra's new podcast series, History's Greatest Leaders, to find out. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

0:17Insurance isn't one size fits all, and shopping for it shouldn't feel like squeezing into something that just doesn't fit. That's why drivers have enjoyed Progressive's Name Your Price tool for years. With the Name Your Price tool, you tell them what you want to pay, and they show you options that fit your budget. Enough hunting for discounts, trying to calculate rates, and tinkering with coverages. Maybe you're picking out your very first policy, or maybe you're just looking for something that works better for you and your family. Either way, they make it simple to see your options. No guesswork, no surprises.

0:51Ready to see how easy and fun shopping for car insurance can be? Visit Progressive.com and give the Name Your Price tool a try. Take the stress out of shopping, and find coverage that fits your life, on your terms. Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and Affiliates. Price and coverage match limited by state law. When you need to build up your team to handle the growing chaos at work, use Indeed Sponsored Jobs. It gives your job post the boost it needs to be seen, and helps reach people with the right skills, certifications, and more.

1:22Spend less time searching, and more time actually interviewing candidates who check all your boxes. Listeners of this show will get a $75 sponsored job credit at Indeed.com slash podcast. That's Indeed.com slash podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Need a hiring hero? This is a job for Indeed Sponsored Jobs.

The historic loan agreement

1:46950 years after it was made in England, the Bayer Tapestry is for the first time returning to the UK for a blockbuster exhibition at the British Museum. Professor Michael Lewis is the curator of that exhibition, and in conversation with David Musgrove for this episode of the History Extra podcast, he explains what you can expect if you do go down to the British Museum, and how he hopes it'll become a generational event that people will talk about for decades to come. I am joined by Professor Michael Lewis,

2:19who is the curator of the Bayer Tapestry exhibition at the British Museum, the big blockbuster exhibition in September 2026, the once-in-a-millennium moment when the tapestry is coming from France to England. And I do have a bit of skin in the game here. I ought to be clear that Michael and I have co-written a book, The Story of the Bayer Tapestry, so our dynamic is slightly different to our normal interviews in that I know the man and we've written a book together. But what we're going to talk about today is the story of the exhibition,

2:53the story of the loan, and what you will see if you go to the exhibition. But don't worry, if you haven't got a ticket, you're also going to be able to learn a lot about how the tapestry is going to be presented and what it's all about from this conversation. So, Michael, how are you? Good, thank you. Okay, good to see you. Let's kick off. What's your involvement in the loan story? When did you first get involved in the Bayer Tapestry? Oh my gosh, there's a bit of a backstory here. Okay, let's do it. I'll try and keep it as quick as possible. So, in 2013, I was asked to join the Bayer Tapestry Scientific Committee,

3:23which was advising Bayon Museum on how the tapestry was going to be displayed and reinterpreted in its new museum. And it came clear quite soon, really, that the museum would have to close for them to do their ambitious plans for the museum, which involved putting the tapestry in a single straight line. And it occurred to me, kind of obviously, really, that this would be an opportunity if the tapestry is coming off display and going to be put in storage for several years for it to come to the UK. And of course, I kind of mentioned that to my colleagues, mostly French colleagues,

3:57and they basically said to me, Michael, this is a lovely idea, but I don't really see how this is going to happen because the tapestry is, obviously, as you know, kind of very fragile, very delicate. But it's a nice idea. But over time, it sort of got a bit of traction, essentially, because I was starting to talk to all sorts of different people about the kind of possibility of this. I kind of didn't let it rest in a way. And there was conversations I was having with colleagues at the DCMS in advance of this summit. It's called the Sandhurst Summit in 2018 between Macron and May.

4:30And different departments within government kind of normally offer things towards that summit. And there had been the idea that this loan request could be part of that. And I know, I was kind of knowing things from both sides, because my colleagues in Bayer Museum were telling me to say, look, we've been asked about this and whether it'd be possible and etc, etc. And obviously, they'd known I'd be very interested in this for a long time. So it sort of became essentially part of the agreement that if the tapestry was safe to travel, then it would be loaned to the UK.

5:01And of course, President Macron famously announced that just before the summit. And it splashed off over the newspapers that the Bayer tapestry was coming to the UK. But it wasn't quite a done deal. And in fact, I think from my perspective, it was a little bit frustrating that on the British side, there wasn't a real clear plan about how that would sort of happen. Still, I'd kind of badgered about it, you know, knowing this was an agreement in principle. I got this sort of tip off from the British Embassy in Paris that in 2025,

5:33the French Foreign Minister was kind of intrigued about this idea. And they'd made quite a few efforts in terms of pursuing this. And essentially, I kind of got contacted, I think it was in probably March last year, by the embassy to say, look, do you think the British Museum would have the tapestry if the French were agreeing to loan it? And of course, that was way above my pay grade. So I kind of passed on the message to the director of the British Museum. And I think from then on, it was pretty quick that this agreement was made. Obviously, there's lots of negotiations that I wasn't sort of part of.

6:06But yeah, that's essentially the backstory to the loan from my perspective.

Curating the British Museum exhibition

6:11Now, you're curator of the exhibition. Are you curator or lead curator or just plain curator? I'm just a plain curator, I think, to be fair. What does that mean? What do you do as a curator? It's kind of funny, actually, because I suppose it would depend on what museum you're in. So obviously, the British Museum is a massive organisation. And as part of this project, it's obviously been essential that different people work on different aspects of the exhibition. So like I said, I wasn't involved with the kind of transportation aspect,

6:42the object handling side. Obviously, the conservation side is left to the conservators at the British Museum. In terms of the design, you know, we have an exhibitions team that oversees the sort of design. But obviously, there's a conversation between the curatorial team. So there's a team of us essentially working on this. The main role of the curators, so initially, it was really to decide how was this going to work? You know, what we were going to do. But I've got to say, this is obviously a pretty unique project. Most British Museum exhibitions taking in external loans would probably have, you know,

7:18several hundred objects. And there would be various narratives that go through those. And you'd be thinking about how they sort of group together. I mean, we knew, obviously, we were going to have one object that was going to completely dominate this exhibition, the Bay of Tapestry. Not only in terms of its fame, but also its physical size. It only just about fits in the Sainsbury's Exhibition Gallery. And also, because of the extraction and installation of the tapestry, there has to be a reasonable amount of space behind it for that kind of work to happen.

7:50I wasn't involved, for example, in, you know, the case, the showcase. Again, that kind of fell to others in terms of making sure that that kind of fits the tapestry and works well and all of the logistical aspects related to putting the tapestry in the case and that sort of stuff. So in some ways, it's really about the kind of content and the story and what we're going to tell. And what normally happens is at the beginning of an exhibition, you come up with several concept ideas, which we did as a team. But again, there's some things you sort of know are going to happen.

8:23I mean, we really know, I suppose, straight away, that there is going to be a sort of logistical challenge that's beyond what our curatorial thinking is in terms of how people come to this exhibition. I mean, some journalists have asked me, am I surprised that this has been such a popular exhibition? In 2013, it was obvious to me that this was going to be the biggest exhibition ever, in my view, if the Bay of Tapestry came to UK. I mean, it was logical to me that it would be a big success. And of course, that means that you have lots of people coming to this exhibition.

8:56That means there's an element of how people flow through this exhibition. You've been to British Museum exhibitions, and it might be that you kind of go to this case and that case and go back to this one and look at that one, depending on kind of where the visitors are and you can get into it. But this, obviously, this object demands you kind of walk along it in a single length. And it also means that we have to set that object up. So in terms of this exhibition, much of it has been about how do we tell a broad story about the tapestry, but actually set people up to viewing the object itself.

9:30So I can talk through the components of the exhibition itself in a moment. But I think there was kind of three themes that we thought we could tell through this. The first one is that this is obviously a moment. The Bay of Tapestry is an amazing object. Like I said, it's no surprise to me that lots of people want to come and see it. In some ways, we don't need to do anything to kind of sell that, if you like, in terms of the exhibition. But I think we want people to kind of come to this exhibition and realise this is a moment

10:00in time. This is a unique opportunity to see the Bay of Tapestry. The tapestry itself tells a particular perspective on the past, as you know well. And that's hard to communicate in some ways, but we wanted the tapestry to tell its own story, but also within the exhibition, reflect the fact that it is only one voice of the 11th century amongst those others. So there's ways that we've tried to do that. And also, we wanted to make a moment of the fact that the Bay of Tapestry finishes suddenly. Now, of course, in some displays or books or whatever, there's a suggestion about, you

10:35know, how did the Bay of Tapestry end, and it kind of normally talks about the crowning of William the Conqueror on Christmas Day 1066. But to us, that seemed to miss an opportunity, actually, because in 1066, when the Battle of Hastings had finished, people did not know William the Conqueror was certainly going to become king. Of course, the designers of the Bay of Tapestry did. But even after that, it wasn't clear that this regime was going to be successful in this country, and we wanted to use it as an opportunity to reflect upon the lives of people at the

11:09time of the conquest and how they would have felt about this event. But to be honest, there's lots of things that we could have said about the Bay of Tapestry. We simply don't have the room or the time to do that. So from my perspective, the tapestry exhibition is really about introducing people to the Bay of Tapestry, experiencing the Bay of Tapestry firsthand, and then hopefully being excited to learn more about the tapestry and this period through other means.

11:40Because we could have, for example, said people can have as much time as they like, we can have loads of more objects, but actually we'd be very, very limited then in terms of the numbers of people that would come and see it. And if we'd open an exhibition and said, okay, only, you know, 100,000 people can come and see this, I think many hundreds of thousands and millions of people would be really disappointed that they never had the opportunity to see it. So I think we realised really at the beginning that we had to do this in a very different way than most British Museum exhibitions.

12:10Yeah. And just thinking as we're chatting, there's some sort of assumptions we're making here in terms of people's awareness of what the tapestry is. I'll just point listeners to, we did a full series a few years ago, all about the tapestry with loads of experts, including Michael. So if you want to understand the full story of what it says, obviously you can go to the exhibition, but also you can listen to that podcast. And you can also listen to a podcast where we explain why we think it was probably made in England and why this is a story of homecoming, which we're not going to get into in this episode.

Displaying the tapestry in a straight line

12:39I wonder though, was it always going to be in a straight line? Was that always the idea from the get-go that the tapestry was going to be shown in this one straight line? Which is the main difference to how it's shown in Bayer now, isn't it? We're in this strange sort of looping U-shaped room, which you sort of talked about, the physical constraints of the old museum that forced that on them. Was it always going to be in a straight line? Yes, basically, because the requirement from the French state was that the object had to be flat. And of course, if it's flat, then it has to be in a single length. So there was

13:11no negotiation about that. Essentially, the idea in Bayer in the future is that the tapestry is at a degree. It's not going to be upright like it was before, but it's going to be at a degree, so it's easier to see. But I think we've worked out how to display it well, flat within this exhibition. But yeah, essentially, if it has to be flat, then it has to be 70 metres long, which is a tremendous sight to see, actually. Obviously, I've been into the gallery many times now. And when you stand at one end and you just see the flight of it going across, it is incredible.

13:43So how's it going to work? You're wandering along and then you're just going to look over the case and be able to get reasonably close to it with your face? Yeah, you'll basically be able to go right up to the case. The case is at a relatively low level. Obviously, it's been designed so the maximum number of people can see it. For the tapestry itself, what we're doing is, because we've got this kind of space behind, which we call the void, it allows us to project something behind the tapestry. So obviously

14:13in Bayeux, you've got the tapestry and you use an audio guide as you go along it. We were quite keen at the British Museum not to use an audio guide. And I remember speaking to Antoine Verne, he's the director of the museum about this, and he was a bit like shrugged his shoulders and said, this seems like a crazy idea not to use an audio guide. The audio guide is brilliant in many ways, because obviously it does take people through in a regimented way and it does provide them with the information. But from my perspective, one of the challenges with an audio guide is you are conveying a particular story, inviting interpretation into

14:46the imagery, which we have tried to avoid in this exhibition. We've tried to keep to what the tapestry tells you. And like I said, it's possible to learn more about the ins and outs of it in other sorts of ways. An audio guide also has this disadvantage of isolating you from the people you're going around. I mean, I think we've all been there where you've listened to an audio guide and you've got your children kind of tugging on you saying, you know, I want to look at this, look at this. And you kind of say, wait a minute, I'm just trying to listen to this audio guide. So it has that kind of isolating experience. And obviously we're quite keen that people go

15:20through the exhibition and they do have conversations with their children or the people that they're going with and saying, oh, look at that. Can you see this? So I think that's quite important. But what we're going to do is instead of having kind of labels in front of the case, which obviously are going to be difficult for people to see, is to have projections of the narrative that the tapestry gives. We're not using the Latin, we're translating aspects of it, but we're kind of obviously doing it in our own kind of way, but trying to keep it in the succinct way that the tapestry sort of tells this story. And the projections will allow people to understand

15:53key aspects of the tapestry story. They will kind of come and go and they will allow people to understand broadly what's going on and highlight the key characters. So the idea is to use these animations both to kind of help people understand the story, but also in a subtle way, help people move through that story as well, because it's obviously really important that people move through this exhibition. There's two reasons for that. One is because deluxe hours, the light levels that we can have on the tapestry are only available certain hours of the day. We can't open the doors

16:2824-7. It's only a limited amount of time that the tapestry can be on display. So that means there's no room, if you like, you know, if people kind of turn up at, I don't know, four o'clock and they haven't got through in time, then we can't just say, okay, we're going to keep it open for another half an hour, an hour. There's not any flex in that. So we have to be sure that people can travel through this exhibition in a timely way. And like I said before, we can't have it that people are there for hours and hours and hours, because that will stop other people having that opportunity.

16:59So we're having to try and be fair to as many people as possible to give what we think is a reasonable time to see the Bayer tapestry, understand the story. And of course, in the future, hopefully people will be inspired to go to Bayer and see the tapestry there. I'm sure they will. Is there a set amount of time that you actually get as a visitor? I mean, what we're expecting is that people will travel through the experience, as it's sometimes called, in about 40 minutes. Now, it's not like there's people kind of with whips and pulling people along and all that sort of stuff. The idea is that the exhibition will enable that way through

17:34the tapestry story and the other aspects of the exhibition as well, which obviously we haven't talked about. Yeah. So if somebody wants to linger, they're not going to be pushed on after a minute or so? No, I mean, I think what we're trying to do is, you know, the British are pretty good at queuing. And, you know, I guess in a queue, if people don't move on or, you know, they're not kind of, I suppose, courteous to their fellow queues, then, you know, that scene is not quite right. Yes, we understand that people might linger at one scene more than another. That's inevitably

18:07going to happen. And some people will probably stay in the space longer than others, like is the case in France. But yeah, we're not wanting to be heavy about this, but we want people to understand that this is a communal experience in a way, and that people have to be fair to their fellow museum visitors.

18:29Insurance isn't one size fits all. And shopping for it shouldn't feel like squeezing into something that just doesn't fit. That's why drivers have enjoyed Progressive's Name Your Price tool for years. With the Name Your Price tool, you tell them what you want to pay, and they show you options that fit your budget. Enough hunting for discounts, trying to calculate rates, and tinkering with coverages. Maybe you're picking out your very first policy. Or maybe you're just looking for something that works better for you and your family. Either way, they make it simple

18:59to see your options. No guesswork, no surprises. Ready to see how easy and fun shopping for car insurance can be? Visit Progressive.com and give the Name Your Price tool a try. Take the stress out of shopping and find coverage that fits your life on your terms. Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Price and coverage match limited by state law. When you need to build up your team to handle the growing chaos at work, use Indeed Sponsored Jobs. It gives your job post the boost it needs to be seen and helps reach people with the right

19:32skills, certifications, and more. Spend less time searching and more time actually interviewing candidates who check all your boxes. Listeners of this show will get a $75 sponsored job credit at Indeed.com slash podcast. That's Indeed.com slash podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Need a hiring hero? This is a job for Indeed Sponsored Jobs. It's very interesting what you say about the audio guide kind of forcing a certain narrative on the listener and you wanting to allow people to make their own decisions about it. Because that does link into another idea, another, you know, reason why I

20:06would say it's worth going to the tapestry and having a look at it yourself is that you're not visually constrained by other people's views as well. Like when we look at the tapestry, either in a, if you go to someone doing a talk about it or if you look at it in a book, somebody will have made a decision as to which bits they're showing you and how the scene is shown, which is fine, but that's their interpretation. If you're stood there looking at it yourself, you can decide where the scene starts and finishes. You can make those judgments. And I think that's quite an important and useful thing to consider. Yeah, I think that's really crucial because obviously the tapestry is divided in these

20:41scenes. There's these, people will notice these scene numbers that have been added to the tapestry probably in the 19th century, the beginning of the 19th century. Maybe later for the last two, isn't it? Yeah, and for the last two during the Second World War period. They do, to a degree, follow what the text says in the tapestry. But there is a clear relationship between the text and images, but it might not always completely follow. And I think it is really important that people understand that whilst the scenes are divided, there is a linking between those narrative sequences as well. And like you said,

21:15in a book or any other presentation pretty much of the tapestry, you don't notice that in quite the same sort of way as when you kind of walk along the tapestry and you see how these scenes work together. Sometimes they're reversed and sometimes they're in a chronological order. But yeah, I think it makes you appreciate the bare tapestry in a slightly different way than normal. Yeah, particularly in a world today where we so often see images cropped or, you know, manipulated in ways on social media and such like, I'm not looking for a moral message here,

21:48but people go into the tapestry, you know, you might reflect on that and think actually, you know, you need to see something in the round before you make a judgment on things. Yeah, I think it does make you interpret different scenes slightly differently. I think the other thing that people might be used to seeing if they just look at books is just certain depictions from the bare tapestry. I think people will be surprised, for example, to see this extended sequence where William takes Harold into Brittany and fights on that campaign. I think a lot of people will think, I never knew that there was this kind of like

22:18little kind of detour into Brittany that's in the bare tapestry. And there's other things like that as well that are probably less well known. And I think that's where our kind of prompting at the back will help people get an overview of the tapestry story in a way that probably is not common if you've not seen the tapestry. Yeah. And I know you think I'm a deviant for regularly referring to this, but obviously the tapestry is famous these days for the fact that it has a lot of graphic nudity in it. Do you think people will be shocked by that when they see all the penises?

22:50Well, most of them are for horses, so I don't think they're going to be that shocked, to be honest. Yeah. But if you're really sensitive to that, you know, you might have to avert your eyes at certain moments.

Walking through the visitor experience

22:59So am I right in thinking you're kind of, you're approaching the tapestry from one high, you're building like a mezzanine or balcony and then you're going to descend down? Yeah. So should I start from the beginning a little bit? So obviously you're in the busy streets of London and we've kind of created a sort of airlock space. So the Sainsbury's Exhibition Gallery has this kind of foyer that normally we take people's kind of tickets or check the tickets. That's going to be part of the exhibition. And what will happen is you're transported back to the battlefield today with kind of some, what we call light

23:29boards that illustrate the battle. And they'll have some kind of key phrases there to make you understand that you've kind of come back to the Battle of Hastings where this sort of big clash was. We'll be exhibiting some arms and armour, including a loan from Austria of a conical helmet, the type that's used there and quite an imaginative display of arms and armour. So the idea is that's to get people sort of in the mood really of coming off the busy streets of London and then getting ready to see the Bayer tapestry. And then there's going to be a bit of a

24:00film that provides people a bit of information about how this exhibition is going to work. I think it's kind of quite interesting that the British Museum has done this because I think it's kind of a nod to its traditional visitors that this isn't going to be like what they normally do, i.e. you go to a room and you can just kind of disperse and do what you like. This is a more managed visit in that respect because of the reasons I've explained in terms of allowing as many people to see the tapestry and within the confines of not being able to show it 24-7. Then people will go up the stairs

24:34onto what we're calling the bridge. Now the reason the bridge exists is because of the configuration of that room and because we need to have people coming into the tapestry one way and coming out another. And the bridge allows that to happen with people kind of going over if you like the exit from the exhibition. There's a lift of course which allows people to come up one end and go down the other or stairs depending on people's needs. And on that bridge we're going to have kind of three if you like animations which are shown alongside objects that are relevant to those.

25:09So we do have loans into the exhibition but the idea of these loans is they're going to work hard against the Bay of Tapestry. We've had to be really selective in what they are and what they do. But essentially on the bridge, and I won't give too much away because I don't want to completely spoil it for people, but it will give you the who, where, why and when as much as is possible. As you know, the answer to those questions is fairly open. So we'll make some sort of suggestions through these displays and give you a kind of view, if you like, of what is the most likely,

25:42you know, the most likely patron and how it was made, etc, etc. And then that information hopefully will give people what they really need to be able to maximise seeing the Bay of Tapestry itself. But it is obviously quite direct and it's aimed at a broad audience as well. So obviously if people want more in-depth information, they're going to have to go elsewhere for that. Okay. And are you going to be able to glance at the tapestry from this higher level or do you not see it until you've descended? So basically when you're at this high level, there's a cavity, a space that allows you to

26:14get your first glimpse. It's more than a glimpse really, to be honest, of the whole of the tapestry. I mean, obviously you'll be seeing a kind of line of people looking at the Bay of Tapestry, but essentially you'll be able to get your first impression of the extent of the tapestry. And actually, I mean, I've been up there and looking down and it is a pretty fascinating view. What we're also doing is on the walls in various places is we've got kind of quotes from chroniclers at the time that kind of reflect the mood of 1066, giving a sense of those different

26:45voices to those that are kind of presented in the Bay of Tapestry. And as you know, some of those authors like William of Poitiers and William of Jumiege, you know, they're quite extravagant in the things that they say about this period, whereas the tapestry itself is a little bit more kind of balanced and sort of terse. This isn't necessarily your bag and you might not even be able to answer it, but I'm sure people have been wondering about, you know, how the British Museum ensures the tapestry comes to no harm. So we've talked about the transport of it, but also concerns about people making political protests and such like. What measures are in place to make sure that

27:20nothing bad happens to it? Well, obviously, I can't go into all of the security aspects, but obviously, in terms of the case itself, it is obviously, you know, high grade materials that prevent, you know, accidental malicious damage, both in terms of people kind of using something hard against it and also kind of liquids and things like that. So, you know, that's certainly in the plans that there would potentially be someone that does this. Obviously, it would be a disaster if the

27:51tapestry was damaged and we're certainly doing everything to avoid that. And obviously, I mean, I'd say to anybody who's mindful of making a protest, you know, not to do anything that could potentially damage the artifact, because I don't think that would do anyone any good. We've talked a bit about the magnitude of this exhibition, how you think that it's going to be the biggest exhibition that the British Museum's ever put on. I think that's probably a reasonable thing to say, given how many tickets have been sold. I mean, it's sold out now. We're speaking in late July. We're sold out from the start until the end of the year, I think, isn't it, already?

28:23Yeah. So, it's clearly a big thing. And like getting acres of media attention, loads and loads of people talking about... That's you on the television and the radio.

The legacy of the Norman Conquest

28:30It's me, it's you, but generally, I think people are interested in this. Why is that? Why is it going to be such a big deal, do you think? Well, I think the fact that the Bayer Tapestry is such a famous object in itself, the fact that it is this earliest representation of the Norman Conquest, and it is in a media that people kind of relate to. I think people are going to be surprised when they see the Bayer Tapestry, if they've never seen it before, about how bright, in some ways, the colours are. Okay, they've faded over time. But I think people will be surprised, or they kind of won't believe,

29:04actually, this object is, you know, almost a thousand years old. I mean, obviously, 1066 is such an important date in our history. And the fact that there's this object that exists that depicts this event, but normally is in France, and is coming back to England, can't say the UK really, but going back to England for the first time in, you know, since it was made probably, you know, 950 odd years ago. I mean, it's a one-off opportunity, isn't it, really? One of the things that has strangely aligned here is the conversation about it coming

29:38home, which sort of went alongside the World Cup, the Football World Cup, when people were talking about England winning and football coming home, you know, that rather trite trope nowadays. Do you think that's helpful? Yeah, like this sort of coming home thing, is that a bit problematic in some ways? Well, I mean, obviously, home then and home now are kind of slightly different things. I mean, I sometimes have talked about a sort of homecoming for the Bayer Tapestry. I think we have to be a little bit cautious about it, because obviously, England now is completely

30:10influenced by the fact the Norman Conquest, you know, finished. I think it always kind of strikes me a little bit that when I go to the reenactment at battle, that most people are cheering on Harold as if they identify with him more than they do with William Duke of Normandy. And of course, you know, England has changed significantly since 1066, in some part because of 1066, but in other ways also. And of course, you know, the language we speak is derived from the fact that the Normans conquered England, and obviously many cultural aspects

30:42as well. So it always does surprise me that, you know, the new English who came out of the Norman Conquest are cheering on the English of the past rather than the Normans, which maybe they're closer to. So I think we have to appreciate that it's not as straightforward as sometimes people think about it. In fact, I was having a conversation with some of my French colleagues the other day about this. They're from Normandy, and they actually identify quite closely with the English because of the Norman Conquest. You know, they see themselves

31:13as not necessarily the same people, but as part of the same dyspora. So I think it's probably not completely helpful to kind of divide things down quite black and white sort of tribal lines. But hopefully, again, it'll be something that comes out of this exhibition that people do reflect on the fact that we have this more complicated history because of the Norman Conquest. And in fact, you know, even with the Norman Conquest, it doesn't mean that there was no incoming incomers ever since. I mean, all through the period after

31:471066, there was many people that were coming into this country, but it wasn't obviously conquered again since then. Yeah. And just thinking a little bit more about the emotional reaction to the tapestry beyond the sort of the nationalistic. You said, how about you were quite emotional when you saw it, you know, finally coming back in the lorry. You've obviously got a long history of the tapestry though, so that's natural to expect. But there are scenes in the tapestry which are, you know, very powerful emotional things. The most obvious one would be the woman leading

32:17her son out from a burning house. And the tapestry, even though it is a very venerable embroidery, does somehow manage to get across quite raw, powerful emotions. Do you think people will sense that? I hope so. I think that seems really interesting because you've got this kind of really weird juxtaposition between these men building Hastings Castle, kind of larking about, you know, bashing each other with spades and then dropping stones on each other's heads. And then you get this woman and child being burnt out of their building straight away. And of course, at the time, it

32:53wouldn't have been missed by anybody that these new structures, these new castles were being built in England where land was wasted in order for those buildings to be created and people would be displaced from their houses. So the people embroidering the tapestry and the people seeing the tapestry would have been aware that this is not just some, you know, past historical event like it is for us, but this is what's happening as well. And in fact, in terms of our interpretation of the tapestry, we're keen that we don't end with talking about William becoming sort of king,

33:28but we kind of look at the aspect of the uncertainty that directly follows the defeat of Harold and William's victory. Because the tapestry ends suddenly with the English fleeing the battlefield. And of course, for people at that moment, they would have no idea of what was to come next. They didn't know this new regime was going to be successful. I mean, we know that now, but the people at the time, you know, they didn't know what was going to happen at all. And I think people might, you know, look at the world around them at the moment and the uncertainty in the world and, you know, what might be the outcome of these other kind of wars and

34:01aspects of violence that are happening in the world around us. And they might understand or think about what that would have been like for the people living in England in 1066. That is interesting. And just sort of thinking a bit more about that, it's interesting and timely that the exhibition runs into 2027, which is also being established as the year of the Normans, the millennial anniversary of the birth of William of Normandy. And in that year, we're being invited to celebrate or maybe commemorate the Norman legacy in a sense, certainly in Normandy, but also across

34:40Britain, which is an interesting thing to think about, isn't it? Because there's some negative connotations to that Norman legacy in terms of, you know, castles being imposed on settlements, for instance. You know, that's obviously quite a negative experience for people who were in those towns at the time. It's fascinating, I think, to think about the fact that tapestry represents this moment of national defeat in some ways. And yet, it's also iconic in our story. And the fact that we're moving into this year when we're invited to think a bit more about the Norman legacy,

35:12I wonder how that will play out. Yeah, it's interesting, actually, in terms of the year of the Normans, because the partnership, I mean, that's a project that's been promoted by the president of Normandy. And the partners are not just in Britain and other parts of the world that were touched by the Normans, either immediately or kind of in the subsequent centuries. So it includes Italy, for example. And I think a lot of people will be surprised that the Normans are in Italy in exactly the same time they're in England. Not if they listen to this director of podcast, because we've definitely covered that. Okay, well, I'm sure most people who listen to this will know that, but other people might not.

35:44And likewise, you know, a century later in Ireland, but also it kind of partners with places where the Normans came from. So they look at the sort of Scandinavian influences that established the Duchy of Normandy in the first place. So it's kind of interesting because it's sort of an eclectic kind of group of countries in a way that are kind of touched by the Normans, either in terms of their origin story or their subsequent expansion. And of course, you know, the Normans were masters at

36:15two things in my view. One was they were expansionist, which I don't think the Anglo-Saxons particularly were in the 11th century before the Norman Conquest. Obviously, that changes as a result

Favorite scenes and personal highlights

36:27of the Norman Conquest. But the English seem to be relatively comfortable with staying within their own borders. And that obviously radically changes with the Norman Conquest. And obviously, Victorian writers would look back to that period as a justification for themselves, you know, kind of expanding sort of Britain's influence even further. So there's that aspect. And then also the fact that the Normans were experts at kind of changing within a culture. So people sometimes think about the

36:57Normans bringing stuff to Britain. But actually, what the Normans did was make the most of what England had. So, you know, the Doomsday Book could have not happened in Normandy. It could only happen in England because of the mechanisms that the English had. If you look at Norman currency before 1066, that is not anything like the currency that's been produced in England. England has this ability to raise tax and obviously makes it attractive to people from overseas. So likewise, in Italy and in

37:28Sicily, where the Normans almost vanish within the local population because they make so much use of what was their... They did the same thing in England. And of course, as part of the Year of the Normans, the Irish might be talking, for example, about the Norman influence. What they're really talking about is the Anglo-Norman influence into Ireland, because the Normans have almost dissipated into a new English by that rate. So I think it is really interesting, the way of looking at this and the way of looking at sort of the influences and, you know, the impact that the Normans then had on this country and other places as well.

38:04Hmm. Okay. So you and I, we've written an article for History Action Magazine and it'd be on the website and app as well, I'm sure, about sort of 10 particular things to have a look at if you're looking at the tapestry. So I'd encourage people to have a look at that, but maybe summarise how you would approach looking at the tapestry if you haven't spent years studying it. How best to make the best of a visit to the British Museum? Well, I hope that our story that we tell, which like I said, is following the Bay of Tapestry, will allow people to do that. I think one thing it's always worth doing is with the Bay of Tapestry,

38:38there's a temptation to always look at what's going on in the main freeze. But I think it's important to kind of nod to the borders and see what's going on there. So look out for the sort of changes, as you know, that it sort of starts with the kind of birds and the beasts, if you like, being fairly sedate. And then they start to do things like they sometimes cover their eyes in shock when they see Harold making an oath and they start to get agitated in moments of battle. And indeed, in the Battle of Hastings, some of the birds sort of keel over. So I think it is worth kind of casting your eyes up and down, not just in a linear way as well. I mean, obviously, we'll highlight the kind

39:13of key scenes for people to look out for. But I think it is worth doing a little bit of background reading to familiarise yourself. Some of you might not know who Guy of Ponthew is. You might not have heard of Duke Connan of Brittany. There's other peoples like two-year-old Vital and Wardard, who you might think, gosh, who are they when you first come across them? So I think there's no harm in doing a little bit of background research. But essentially, people just need to sort of lay back and, well, not lay back, they'll be looking forward and enjoy the experience of going through the tapestry. Yeah. And whenever I'm asked this, like, what particular scene will I stop at and

39:48look at? I always say there's a particular scene after this famous oath, this sacred promise that Harold makes, which in the Norman narrative is he then goes on to perjure himself by taking the throne of England. Once he returns to England on ship, there's this little tower by the sea. And you can see these little faces looking out the window and their sort of necks craning forward. And you can just sense the anticipation and the tension in their faces that, you know, they know something's happened here and that it's going to have consequences. You can see that in their eyes, I think. So I will be keen to linger on that. Where will you be keen to linger on?

40:21Well, I've got a bigger scene than that in a funny sort of way. I love the deathbed scene of Edward the Confessor because it brings together some of the sort of key characters in the tapestry from the English side. And I love the fact also that, so basically in this scene, you've got Edward in his deathbed. He's kind of touching hands with Harold. They're stigand, kind of not shaven because he's been up all night. And at the bottom of the bed is Queen Edith, Harold's sister, kind of weeping at the bottom of the bed because Edward's obviously going to pass away. And I love the fact that in the

40:53book that Edith herself commissioned the Vito Edwardis Regis, The Life of King Edward, she talks about this exact scene as well. And she kind of mentions what is going on. And she said it's then when, you know, Edward the Confessor, as he's just about to keel over, you know, touches hands with Harold and says, you know, will you look after your sister, i.e. the Queen? And then will you also look after the kingdom? And I just love the idea that then Harold is thinking, yes, this is my Andy Burnham type moment when I will take over the country. And it's going to be great ever since

41:25afterwards. Maybe that's not a good moral to end on, is it? But anyway, I mean, at least he might be prime minister for nine months, I guess.

41:33Well, for the entire duration of the tapestry show. Oh yeah, of course. Actually, that leads very nicely onto my final question. So let's skip forward to summer 2020.

Long-term impact and future preservation

41:431997, as you're sadly packing the tapestry back up into its paravent and waving it back to France. What do you hope will have happened to the nation, if that's not too big a thing, as a consequence of having this really important, big blockbuster show of the tapestry here in the UK? Well, the key thing, I suppose, is I hope people like the exhibition, because obviously it'll be a bit of a tragedy if people come along and said, oh, I didn't really go for that. We're didn't really inspired by a bear tapestry. I mean, to be honest, I think we could have almost put the tapestry out without an interpretation and people would be wowed by seeing this object.

42:19Hopefully it's going to be a much better experience than that. But in some ways, the tapestry does speak for itself. But yeah, in terms of the kind of my hope, I mean, I hope that people will be talking about seeing the tapestry for many, many years. And it would also encourage them to go off and kind of read more, learn more about 1066. I hope that they will have a better appreciation of how 1066 impacted this country. Think about as well, you know, how that changed the country in terms of, I want people to move away, I suppose, from this

42:52binary English-free kind of French type thing to more understanding the kind of influences that weave a country together and create a sort of national narrative. So I think that's important for people to kind of reflect on. But I actually, I'm really excited about seeing the tapestry back in Bayer. I hope I get an invite to see it there because I think in some ways this, I think you've talked about this as well, in some ways, you know, this exhibition will help, I think, preserve the tapestry for the future. Because I think an object, as was

43:23the case with the Bayer tapestry in the past, you know, once it gets forgotten about, then it's subject to kind of potential damage. You know, we know those stories of it being almost cut up and used as a cart when people had forgotten about its importance. So I think in some ways this will ensure the longevity of the tapestry. Even now, you know, speaking to the French and British conservators, you can see that there's an interest in doing more to ensure that the tapestry is preserved in the future better than it has been in the past.

43:54Yeah, no, I absolutely agree. I respectfully disagree with the likes of David Hockney, who said it wasn't worth the risk. I think it ensures the tapestry's long-term survival and generations of people will be interested in it and will want to make sure it's well cared for, which of course it will be in Bayer. Great, Michael, thank you very much. You've probably got work to do, got to get back and get that tapestry sorted out, curated, ready for the visitors to arrive on the 10th of September. That's when it opens. If you haven't got a ticket yet, tickets will go on sale again in various tranches through the autumn for visits in 2027. So Michael,

44:29thank you very much for your time.

44:32That was Professor Michael Lewis talking to David Musgrove. Their book, The Story of the Bayer Tapestry, is on sale in paperback now. And the exhibition at the British Museum runs from September 2026 through to July 2027. So keep an eye on the British Museum website for details of ticket releases.