Are Private Equity Firms Plundering the U.S. Economy? (Update)

The Rise of Private Equity

0:00Hey there, it's Stephen Dubner. We recently published an episode featuring David Rubenstein, co-founder of the Carlyle Group, which is one of the biggest and most influential private equity firms in the world. Today we are replaying for you an episode we made in 2023 about that industry. It's called Are Private Equity Firms Plundering the U.S. Economy? It features a couple of pretty revealing stories about Carlyle. We have updated facts and figures as necessary If you have an idea for an episode or just want to let us know what you're thinking,

0:34our email is radio at freakonomics.com. As always, thanks for listening.

0:53This is Freakonomics Radio, the podcast that explores the hidden side of everything. With your host, Stephen Dubner.

1:08This is a story about what some people call piracy. These people with only dollar signs as their goal plundered something really wonderful. And where is this so-called piracy happening? It's everywhere. It is possibly your kids' schools. Could be your employer. Could be the mortgage on your house. Missile defense systems. It's everywhere. The people who run these operations say they're misunderstood and that what they're doing is

1:43good for society. Others disagree. The problem is that we've got a business model whose incentives drive extreme and ultimately bad outcomes. Today on Freakonomics Radio, the rise and rise of the private equity industry.

The Business Model of Plunder

1:59We'll start with a guest who, at the time we made this episode, had a pretty interesting job. My name is Brendan Ballew, and I'm a special counsel at the Department of Justice. Ballew has since left government service. Now he's the CEO of the Public Integrity Project, a public interest law firm that fights government corruption. But during his time at the DOJ, Ballew was a prosecutor in the antitrust division. And he noticed something interesting. When companies propose to buy big companies, they have to file documents with the Department

2:32of Justice antitrust division and with the FTC. I was looking at those documents and I was seeing all these acquisitions that were coming in. And they were all companies that are being bought by institutions that I'd never heard of, like Blackstone, Carlisle, KKR, Apollo. I'd never heard of these. And so I started looking into it and started to learn about the idea of private equity. And suddenly I realized that they were buying up everything. And that got me interested in the idea of this book project, which I started putting together in quarantine. He's talking about the COVID quarantine, in case you've forgotten that happened.

3:07Ballew's book project became an actual book, which he wanted to make clear did not represent the views of the Justice Department. The title is Plunder, Private Equity's Plan to Pillage America. The basic business model of private equity is very straightforward. Private equity firms take a little bit of their own money, some of investors' money, and a whole lot of borrowed money to buy up companies. They then try to make financial or operational improvements and then flip the company, hopefully for a profit, a few years later.

3:38So we've been doing occasional episodes on this show about private equity over the last several years, often the downsides, not exclusively. We recently ran a two-part series on how private equity firms have been buying up veterinary and other pet care facilities. Now, I have several friends and acquaintances who work in private equity, and they complain to me that I've been alarmist and that the negative associations with private equity are overstated. Of course, it's in their interest to say that. But when I listened to their explanations, these are nice, pro-social,

4:14well-educated people who don't beat their children or anything like that, I thought, well, maybe they're right. Maybe I am becoming a little bit hyper about it or paranoid or panicked. And then, Brendan, I read your book and I thought, oh my, I'm not nearly paranoid enough. So let me hear just a sort of opening statement from you about the state of private equity in the U.S. So we already described what private equity is or what the business model is. Let me try to lay out what the basic problem with that business model is. There are three issues with it. First is that

4:48private equity firms tend to buy companies and hold them only for a few years. Second is that they tend to load the companies up they buy with a lot of debt, and then they extract a lot of transaction and management fees from the company. And then the third thing is they tend to be insulated financially and legally from the consequences of their actions. When the portfolio firm does something illegal or does something wrong, the private equity firm itself is rarely held liable. What this means is when you've got short-term thinking, when you've got a lot of debt, a lot of fees, and we've got insulation from

5:20responsibility, it leads to all sorts of bad consequences. And you were talking about, you know, the series that you've been doing on veterinary clinics. Well, my girlfriend actually is a veterinarian, and she's talking about all these private equity firms are buying up all the veterinary clinics in the area in which we live. And it leads to, at least as alleged by her friends and folks that I know, leads to diminished quality of care for pets. It leads to increased prices. It leads to less flexibility for workers. And all of those are the sorts of things that happen when you own a business

5:51only for a few short years. And you don't have responsibility for what happens in the long term. Now, there's a particular argument in the vet care space. And one story that we heard after we published that series was from a lot of younger vets who say they would like to buy the practice from the founding vet, let's say, of their practice, but they have such big medical school debt that they can't afford to. And that the older vets, even though they'd like to sell the practice to the younger practitioners, they can't. And therefore, they end up getting enticed to cash out their

6:22business by selling to a private equity firm. In a case like that, do you see any viable solutions? Well, for something like that, you know, student debt relief would make a whole lot of difference for young vets to be able to afford these things. Going back to my girlfriend, she's benefited tremendously from, you know, the pause on student loan repayments. The challenge is not that there's a lack of interest in owning these things is that the folks who have the money who actually can own them don't have the long term interest in operating them. As you're describing the problem or the potential

6:54problem with a pet care roll up, let's say, how much of the problem as you see it is private equity per se versus consolidation generally? That's a great question. Consolidation is its own unique challenge. And the solution historically has been the antitrust laws. You can buy a business, you can buy a couple of businesses, but the more and more that you buy in a single product and geographic market, the more market power you obtain. And that gives you power to raise prices and depress pay and cut quality care and all these sorts of things. That's what the

7:26antitrust laws are designed to address. You've got a particular challenge with the roll ups that private equity firms execute in that a lot of them are with very small businesses. You then also have the problems of private equity compounding the challenges that roll ups create, which is that, you know, a traditional company might buy another business with cash. Private equity firms do this with debt. They do it with debt that not them, but that the company they buy takes on. And so what that

7:57means is you've got a business that's getting rolled up. And so it's getting bigger and bigger and getting more market power. But oftentimes it's going to hold a lot more debt, which means that it's got to execute ever riskier or ever worse business tactics just to stay in business.

Scale and Influence in Washington

8:12What's the best way to think about private equity controlled firms as a share of the U.S. economy? So it's a little bit apples to oranges, but private equity in 2021 had $1.2 trillion in acquisitions. And the U.S. GDP was about $25 trillion. That's not to say that it was 125th of the economy, but just to give you a relative sense of scale.

8:37You went to college at Columbia, New York, correct? Yep. Studied what? Studied philosophy. I wouldn't recommend it to anybody. Okay. But then law school at Stanford Law, correct? Exactly. I'm guessing that between those two degrees that you have plenty of friends who work in private equity. Is that the case? I have various friends who are in finance, and I think that they're all wonderful people. My argument about private equity isn't about the people that are in the industry. It's about the

9:08business model. Don't people create business models? I think that's a question for a historian or a sociologist. Hey, you just told us you're a philosophy major. No, you know, it's a slightly different argument. Private equities, critics and defenders focus on the people that run private equity firms. For the people that support private equity, their masters of the universe. For people that oppose them, their cartoon villains. I would argue that that's strategically the wrong focus because it suggests that all you need to do is change the

9:39people and you change the business. What I'm trying to explain is that the laws that we've created around this business model create incentives that lead to all sorts of disastrous outcomes. And it's really extraordinary. I think that there are few industries that have been more successful in pushing their agenda through every facet and lever of government. Private equity firms and investment firms have given something like $900 million to federal candidates since 1990. One of the things that I think people don't necessarily recognize or maybe they're

10:13inured to is the extraordinary extent to which private equity firms have been able to bring in the brightest lights of government into the industry. We're talking about secretaries of state, treasury, defense, a CIA director, several generals, former SEC chairs, SEC chairman, speakers of the house, two speakers of the house so far. And, you know, it's not just the bright light names of government that go into private equity. It's sort of the below the fold people as

10:43well. If you look at the lobbying disclosure forms of any of the large private equity firms, it's filled with chiefs of staff, legislative directors. And it just means that when private equity approaches somebody in government, it's often a friendly face. And when somebody's thinking about maybe leaving government, they've got a place that they can go to. I find that most even pretty smart people I know who don't work near finance or private equity don't really have any sense of what private equity is. It's operated, I don't want to say in the

11:14shadows, but certainly outside of the spotlight for a long time. Your book threatens to change that. Was that an intention? I confess that I did not know what private equity was probably until after I got this book deal. But, you know, explaining what private equity is, is deliberately hard because private equity firms often obscure what they do. So most of your evidence in this book has been previously reported in places like the New York Times, Wall Street Journal, many local newspapers, all of which you cite very generously, I have to

11:47say. In other words, for anyone who has wanted to see what's going on with private equity, the story's been out there for a while. So tell me what you're adding to the story.

Nursing Homes and Legal Shields

11:58The challenge that we've got is that these stories tend to be specific to an industry. So you hear about what private equity is doing in veterinary clinics. You hear about what they're doing in nursing homes. You hear about what they're doing in prison services or single family homes. The list can go on and on. A lot of what will draw a private equity firm to a given company or to a given industry is stable and reliable cash flow because they're buying the company with debt. So they need to be able to service the debt. So they need some consistent money coming in the door. What I was

12:30trying to explain is that these stories are united by a common thread. And that thread is the laws and regulations that shape private equity and that create their incentives. The example that I keep going to is Carlisle's acquisition of ManorCare. So the Carlisle Group is a private equity firm, one of the largest, and it bought HCR ManorCare, which is the second largest nursing home chain in America. Carlisle bought the company with a lot of debt that ManorCare had to service. And as a result, they slashed staffing, health code violations spiked, complaints by residents rose. Ultimately,

13:07at least one person died in ManorCare's care, a woman named Annie Sally. And when her family tried to sue ManorCare and Carlisle, a really interesting thing happened. In court filings, private equity firm said, oh, no, no, we are not technically the owner of ManorCare. We, in fact, nearly advise a series of funds whose limited partners through a series of shell corporations ultimately own the assets of ManorCare. We're not the ones to blame here. Now, that's sort of a legal

13:38sleight of hand because in public statements, Carlisle had said it bought it. In effect, it seems to have had operational control over the nursing home. And it certainly loaded up the nursing home with all the debt that led to the kinds of consequences that resulted in Ms. Sally's death. But because of fairly obscure legal doctrines like piercing the corporate veil, they were able to get the case against it dismissed. And so what I hope that example shows is that there are lots of laws out there, lots of regulations that essentially give private equity firms operational control over the

14:13companies they buy, but very little responsibility when things go poorly. In terms of making things so complicated that almost no one, even government prosecutors, can really figure out their organizations. It reminds me of this old saying, it might have been W.C. Fields. If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bullshit. I'm curious if that's a strategic move, the degree to which things are Byzantine. One of the private equity industry's great accomplishments is they've made their work

14:45seem so normal and so boring. I honestly think part of its aesthetic, you know, that the folks that run private equity firms wear nice suits. They, you know, have tortoiseshell glasses. They went to a lot of great schools and all these sorts of things. I think that there's something about the private equity industry in that it's managed to present itself as so boring in a lot of ways or so opaque that it's been more successful even than other financial firms. If you compare this to investment banks, which are highly regulated, either as banks or bank holding companies, which is not to say that

15:20those companies have not been successful sort of in a lobbying effort. I think generally people have failed to lay a glove on private equity. The private equity industry has been dominated by American firms and one of the industry's pioneers is named David Rubenstein. He was a co-founder of the Carlyle Group and was for many years its co-CEO. Rubenstein appears frequently in Brendan Ballou's book. We asked Rubenstein for an interview for this episode, but he declined. We asked more than

15:5120 other private equity CEOs and partners and they too declined. But we did speak with Rubenstein back in 2018 for a series we called The Secret Life of a CEO. If you want to hear the full interview with Rubenstein, that's episode 322. I asked Brendan Ballou for his impressions of Rubenstein. The first is that I actually ran into him in a park once while I was in the middle of writing the book. It's a little bit like meeting a celebrity. I was sort of gobsmacked and I didn't know

16:21what to say to him. So what'd you say? I didn't say anything. All I heard him say was $8 million as he was walking by to somebody else. He's on his cell phone or he's just talking to himself? He was talking to an older woman, perhaps his wife or something like that. Rubenstein is a really interesting character. He's a striver who came up from working class Baltimore. He's phenomenally successful at building relationships with folks in politics and ultimately becomes an advisor to

16:52President Jimmy Carter, I believe, at age 27. He has this sort of monk-like aura in the White House. He works harder than anyone, is incredibly dedicated to the president, and works on a huge range of topics. But ultimately, for him, tragedy strikes. Carter isn't reelected and he's sort of thrown into the wind and has to figure out what he's going to do with himself. And he stumbles upon private equity and a particular sort of angle that has been phenomenally successful for him, which is finding

17:25and hiring ex-government officials to come work for them. Their first was former Secretary of Defense Frank Carlucci. And they figure out that there's a real draw for investors to meet these government officials. Now, David Rubenstein has a reputation as a really good business person who has been around a long time and who, in the last bunch of years, has charitably used some of his personal billions to buy historical treasures that he then shares with the public, rare copies of documents like the

17:58Magna Carta, the Declaration of Independence, and so on. So how do you view that? Is that just reputation laundering? Is that a fortune built from plunder? Or is that the well-spent fortune of a man who worked hard and played by the rules? At the risk of being repetitive, I think that David Rubenstein personally is a very nice man. I've listened to a lot of interviews with him to try to get a sense of the person, and I instinctively like him. He has a wry sense of humor that a lot of business executives don't. I think he has a self-awareness that I find very charming.

18:29And I'm very impressed by the considerable donations he's made to a whole range of causes. The challenge is that we've got some examples of, you know, Carlisle making its money by essentially eviscerating some of the companies that it buys.

Mobile Home Parks and Leverage

18:45Yeah. I wanted to ask you about the Plaza del Rey mobile home park in California that was a Carlisle investment. Can you give me that story quickly? So this is an area where private equity firms have been getting increasingly active, is mobile homes. Carlisle bought the Plaza del Rey mobile home park in the Bay Area outside of San Jose. And the park was something of a pocket of affordability in an otherwise unaffordable area of the country. Now, the really important thing about the mobile home business model is mobile homes

19:19generally are not in fact mobile. They're sealed to the ground, often with concrete. And they're often the only source of wealth for the person that lives in them. So what'll happen is a person will buy a mobile home, either with cash or with the mortgage, and then they'll pay a lot fee for the park in which it's sitting. Now, after Carlisle bought up Plaza del Rey, it dramatically hiked the lot fees to a level that was completely unaffordable for a lot of the residents. This had two effects for

19:51residents. One, it increased how much that they had to pay every month to the owner and ultimately to Carlisle. At the same time, it eviscerated the equity that they had built up in their homes, because it meant that other people wouldn't be able to buy those homes. And it meant that they were taking not only the residents' income, but their wealth. As Ballou writes in Plunder, this led the residents of Plaza del Rey to ask their city council to impose rent controls.

20:22And if you read the reporting on this and talk to the folks that were involved in this, there's a really sort of tragic sense in which they're completely outgunned. Carlisle's bringing in executives to these city council meetings, explaining their positions. Meanwhile, the residents are collecting cans to try to afford a lawyer. There's a quote, I think, in the LA Times that they finally collected enough cans to have a third hour with a lawyer. This ultimately proved to be, at least according to public reporting, extremely profitable for Carlisle, which was able to sell the park for a significant

20:56profit to another investor just a few years later.

The Fall of Fairway Market

21:00After the break, what happened when one of New York's most beloved, most distinctive grocery stores got the private equity treatment. This is Freakonomics Radio. I'm Stephen Dubner. We will be right back.

21:21When I moved to New York City many years ago, I thought it was a ridiculous place to live. Too crowded, too chaotic, too expensive. And then I found a grocery store called Fairway on the Upper West Side of Manhattan. Its slogan was, like no other market. Fairway was also crowded and chaotic, but not very expensive. And it was wonderful, at least if you like food, which I did and do. It sounds crazy to say that one

21:53grocery store could make an entire city more livable. But Fairway did. It was a dizzying, gorgeous cornucopia of like all these things, some of which you'd recognize, some of which you'd have absolutely no clue what you were looking at. Like a million kinds of apples that I had never heard of before. For me, the cheese section was the soul of the place. There were 300 cheeses behind the counter. The olive oils were amazing and plentiful and a million kinds of vinegar and tins of

22:26preserved fish. They were really pioneers at like finding new things, finding things from around the world, finding people starting new food brands. That is Hannah Howard. She is a food writer who also fell in love with Fairway. It really was its own thing. A lot of times when I start to talk about all the amazing food, people think something fancy and it was really the opposite of fancy. It was always busy. So we're in

22:57Manhattan and there's always like an angry grandmother with a shopping cart who is not shy about ramming over you. And there was a sort of treasure hunt vibe where you never knew what you were going to discover. There were always these like ropes of garlic and Brussels sprouts before that was something I would see everywhere. When Howard graduated from college, she knew she somehow wanted to work with food. She tried the restaurant industry and didn't like it. Yeah, I think it wasn't as creative as I hoped it would be. And at the time, I was doing a little bit

23:32of freelance writing, including a series about food entrepreneurs. And one of the people I interviewed was Stephen Jenkins, who was one of the VPs at Fairway Market. He was the cheese guy. He was waxing poetic about a lot of his journeys. You know, when you probably were visiting Fairway, it was newer to have some of these cheeses, European cheeses, Goudas and the fresh mozzarella. And he was discovering

24:02them and smuggling them in his suitcase. And I just asked him, I was like, hey, are you guys hiring? This was in 2011. Howard did get hired by Fairway and she started out at the cheese counter. And my timing was great because they were growing at this point. They had just been purchased by the private equity firm, Sterling. It was actually a few years earlier that Sterling Investment Partners, based in Westport, Connecticut,

24:33had made a big investment in Fairway. By then, Fairway had already added a few locations beyond the original one. And the goal was to become a big chain. We were growing so fast and so short-staffed. So it was kind of like an all-hands-on-deck-all-the-time situation. They told us, we have 10 stores now and we're going to have 15 stores next year and we're going to be like Whole Foods. We're going to be all around the country. We're going to be this huge brand synonymous with great food.

25:04And that was exciting and hopeful. Were you involved in the physical opening of new stores as well? I was just because everyone was, the whole team was. I gave a lot of tours to bankers who were part of the IPO to show them around and explain what we were up to.

25:24That's right. Sterling was planning an IPO, an initial public offering of Fairway stock, to recoup its investment. This was in 2013. So how did a single beloved chaotic food market on the Upper West Side turn into the epicenter of an IPO? Okay, let's take a step back to the time before Fairway had taken on a private equity partner. The company was owned by three families. The key family for the purpose of this story

25:54is the Glickberg family, the founders. The Glickbergs were involved in that they were always around. Howie Glickberg was there. His son, Dan Glickberg was there. And there was a lot of talk about if he was going to become the next leader and the next face of the company. How would you describe the Glickbergs as business people, as keepers of this tradition and so on? They cared about the brand. They cared about their people. But I think there was also like kind of that famous, grumpy, New York, like gruff exterior. There was definitely nothing warm and

26:29fuzzy going on. My God, my dad, at his peak, like he would walk through a store and he would point at every single little thing that was wrong. Everybody in the business used to say, if Howie's not talking to you, that means you're doing a good job. And that is Howie's son, Dan Glickberg. I am a venture capital investor, former grocery guru. His father was the one who brought in Sterling Investment Partners. Yeah. So essentially what happened was there's three partners, three equal partners in the

27:01business. And one of the partners called up my dad one day. What my dad's partner told him was, I'm moving down to South Carolina. You can send my checks down there from now on. The partner wanted not only to retire, but to cash out of the business. My dad was always pretty risk averse and he was definitely debt averse. So there was no way he was going to go to a bank and take out a loan to buy out his partner. So that's when they started having the discussions with private equity. And that's how Sterling Investment Partners, in a deal valued at $150 million, wound up with an

27:3580 percent stake in Fairway. The Glickbergs, who still owned around 10 percent, were running the day-to-day, but the day-to-day became much more complicated as they began opening new stores. Sterling absolutely were not grocery operating experts. And the one thing I would say is that if you're going to get into a brick and mortar retail business like grocery that has extremely slim margins, you better have some experience or you better be able to go into your phone book and find some people that have a lot of experience.

28:09Sterling followed the standard private equity playbook and had Fairway take on even more debt beyond the debt from Sterling's initial investment in order to fund the expansion. I think when they went public, they had $200 million in debt, maybe more than $200 million in debt. The IPO was successful, especially for Sterling. They received nearly half of the new money. Howie Glickberg also got a big check and Dan Glickberg made some money too. But Dan Glickberg

28:40decided to leave Fairway just before the IPO. He thought they were headed for trouble. One piece of evidence, Fairway had negative same store sales. So negative same store sales are when your sales this year are lower than when they were the previous year. We were burning a ton of capital. We were probably still spending too much building out each individual store. And, you know, all of those different pieces really brought us to bankruptcy because there was no way that we were ever going to be able to position

29:15the business in a way to stabilize it and then grow sales in order to pay off that debt. Fairway declared bankruptcy in 2016. By then, there were 15 stores. Sterling wound down its investment while Fairway kept operating under new ownership. But in 2020, it declared bankruptcy again. Fairway Market is now owned by Village Supermarket. There are four stores left. They're serviceable places to buy some things that you might need, but they are no longer

29:51the site of, like, glory and excitement. That's Hannah Howard again. The old fairway is to the current fairway as, let me think, like, the best live music you've ever been to versus the annoying toy that your baby has that plays a jingle. There is blame to go all around here. It's not blame on my family. It's not blame on management.

30:23It's not blame on our private equity partners. It's blame to everybody. Like, we screwed this up. We screwed it up. All of us. We're just completely reactionary to any issue that popped up in the business rather than being proactive and saying, hey, here's how we're going to put systems in place so Howie doesn't have to walk through the stores and point out, hey, we have an inventory problem there. No price tags. Why is that employee just standing in the corner with his hat on backwards? Like, we didn't have any management systems in place. I think from private equity

30:55perspective, I think that they raised pricing way too much because that's the easy thing to do, right? They didn't have the right big picture either. It was really just a race to the bottom at that point. I think fundamentally, these people with just dollar signs as their goal plundered something really wonderful. A lot of people have blamed private equity. Very few people have blamed management. And I think at the end of the day, what I really want to say is an apology. I want to

31:31apologize to our customers. I want to apologize to our employees who work so hard to make the Fairway experience what it was. And that's not an apology for me, right? It's really an apology for my family. And it's also an apology for my private equity partners because we've never said that. We asked Sterling Investment Partners for a statement. They said, Sterling never sold any of its stock in Fairway following the IPO and that Sterling did not even

32:03recover the full amount it had invested in Fairway. Additionally, they said the firm sought to act responsibly and honorably throughout its involvement with Fairway, its employees and customers. After the break, a private equity insider on what the industry gets right and where it's going. Also, what is Brendan Belew's endgame? I'm Stephen Dubner. This is Freakonomics Radio. We'll be right back.

A Private Equity Insider's View

32:41Sachin Kajuria spent eight years at Apollo Global Management, one of the world's largest private equity firms. I was a partner before the IPO and invested for the flagship funds across private equity, distressed across the capital structure, working in a team of partners and other employees to deploy, you know, significant funds in different parts of the world. You know, great experience. These days, Kajuria is investing his own money and he has written a book called Two and Twenty,

33:14How the Masters of Private Equity Always Win. Two and Twenty refers to how private equity firms get paid, a 2% fee on the assets they manage and 20% of the investment profits. From the title, it may seem as if Kajuria has come to bury the industry that made him rich, but that's not the case. I asked him to describe the mission of his book. The mission is first to make everyone aware that private equity is not alternative.

33:47It is mainstream. It's everywhere. It is possibly your kids' schools might be owned by private equity, could be your employer, could be the mortgage on your house, could be the road that you drive on, could be the real estate you live in, pet care, your dating app. If you like the movie Top Gun, you know, one of the fighter jet schools is owned by private equity. This is a $12 trillion industry today. And I think going forward in the 2030s, this could be a $20 trillion plus industry.

34:22That's assets under management. That's unlevered. Add a little bit of leverage and you're talking tens of trillions of purchasing power. People are going to have soon the choice about whether to invest in private equity in retail. Retail, meaning the way regular people invest, maybe buying a mutual fund through their brokerage account or 401k. Most of the money that flows to private equity firms today comes from professionals and institutions like sovereign wealth funds, pension funds,

34:54university endowments. Retail investors historically have not been allowed to invest in private equity, but that's changing. Last year, President Trump signed an executive order aimed at expanding access to so-called alternative investments like private equity, private credit and crypto. We covered that in another episode, number 654, called Is the Public Ready for Private Equity? That transition is still ongoing, but such a change would align nicely with Kajuria's mission. Everyone should be better educated about this because it's coming if it's not already at your

35:31door. You know about Apple, you know about Microsoft, Amazon, Tesla, consumer electronics and so on. You know all about that. You don't really know enough, probably as an individual, about Blackstone, Carlyle, KKR. These are the giants of the industry. And you should. For a lot of people, it's still a very opaque industry. And when you have opacity or a lack of transparency or perceived lack of transparency, you have a lot of worry about what's really happening behind the

36:02curtain. Kajuria's main argument is that private equity firms are simply very good at making a lot of money. Why? One key, he says, is a mastery of complexity. If you think about most of our modern lives, we're looking for simplification. Is there an app for this? I want the book that gives me five principles on how to run my life. It's actually the opposite in private investment. It's like, well, hang on a minute. What are people running from? What's just too hard? And hard can be defined

36:35in lots of ways. This business is a good business, but it tripped up. The management messed it up. Oh my God, is it going to die? Oh, so much work. I don't know. Or this is a disruptive industry. Yeah, but is it just a fad? You know, is crypto coming? Is it going? Is it real? Oh, so much work. The world is melting down. There's a financial crisis. Oh my God, this guy wants to buy an insurance company. What? But didn't an insurance company just go bust? I don't know. So much work. In that lies value. Complexity is a source of value with private investing.

37:08So there's been quite a bit of academic research about the downstream effects of private equity investing, much of it negative. On the employee side, there's research about wages, work conditions, about longevity once a private equity firm takes over a company. And then on the consumer side too, especially when we're talking about healthcare, which has become a big area for private equity, nursing homes, hospitals, doctors, practices, on and on. Many of the outcomes there have also been argued to be significantly negative. I would think that's a major concern for anyone,

37:41even if they are just a retiree looking for an investment. But I didn't read about any of that in your book. Why not? So it was important in all the cases we looked at for them to be, you know, pretty much personal examples. And, you know, happily, I wasn't involved in any of the ones that you mentioned that had those downstream ill effects. If you look on Bloomberg, if you look on the business press, you'll find lots of articles about large public companies doing

38:14things in a way that they shouldn't, whether it's Amazon with wages or it's, you know, this hospital with this, that, the other, you see lots. I think it's very important not to confuse the style of investing with, you know, corporate behavior. Is there something intrinsic about private markets investing that does all these bad things? No. Is there something intrinsic about private investing that is vastly superior in all circumstances to public investing? No, of course not. And so I think

38:47you have to be a lot more nuanced than that and say, look, if the argument is, we found that in this, this, and this deal, that all happened to be private equity deals, these practices were happening that didn't benefit consumers, communities, that should not happen. But it should not happen, not as a function of being a private equity investment, one hopes, but more as a matter of corporate life. In the same way that whether you look at Enron or whether you look at AIG or whether

39:17you look at Lehman Brothers, none of these things are private equity. And these things have caused enormous problems over the years. And so you've got to be pretty open about it and say, if you find a particular set of individuals or firms doing things they shouldn't do, of course, that shouldn't happen. And that should be addressed in the normal course of things. But I don't think it's the industry of rule. I've never been in a meeting where somebody said, well, let's do that. It's good for us, but it's bad for somebody else. No way.

39:46Sachin Kajuria makes a good argument here that plenty of firms misbehave and fail and crumble without private equity investments. Brendan Ballew, the former Department of Justice lawyer and author of Plunder, is not particularly sympathetic to this argument.

Debt and Bankruptcy Risks

40:04There was a really interesting instance where a private equity firm bought up a restaurant chain, pushed it into bankruptcy, and ultimately was able to push off the pension obligations of the employees and retirees onto a quasi-government agency. And when asked about this tactic, the co-founder of the private equity firm said simply, we don't make the rules. You write that roughly one in five large companies acquired through leveraged buyouts go bankrupt in a decade. This is vastly more than the roughly 2% of comparable companies not acquired by private

40:35equity firms that do. Can you explain why that happens so often? The advocates of the private equity industry would say that this is essentially inevitable, that private equity firms buy up risky businesses with the hope of radically transforming them. So it's only natural that a higher percentage of these businesses fail. Maybe, but a lot of private equity acquisitions happen with a lot of debt. And then on top of that, the private equity firms manage to extract fees from the company that they own. So management fees

41:08every quarter or every year for the privilege of being owned by the private equity firm, dividend recapitalizations, which is the company essentially borrowing money to pay the private equity firm and its investors. There's also the magic of the sale leaseback, yes? Yeah. If you live in the Midwest, you might've been familiar with Shopko, which was sort of a Walmart competitor. Sun Capital, a private equity firm, bought up Shopko and then required Shopko to sell all of its physical stores and then lease the stores back in perpetuity. Now, you can see how that would make a lot of sense if you're a short-term investor. You get an

41:41initial pop of the sale, but it's tough for the long-term investor because it used to have assets that it could rely on. Now it's saddled with these long-term lease obligations that it's going to have to pay. If I asked you to write a brief critique of your own book, what would that be? Private equity has resulted in thousands of successful deals for hundreds of fabulously successful companies and Baloo fails to acknowledge or explain that success.

42:12Okay. So why did you not explain that success more fully? My point is not that every private equity deal is a failure, not even the majority. The problem is that we've got a business model whose incentives drive extreme and ultimately bad outcomes. Hopefully, this is a bit of a blueprint. There's a tremendous amount of expertise within the federal government on a whole range of issues. Private equity is just one of them. So I'm hoping that this is a little bit of a blueprint for how we can get people who are really knowledgeable in government to talk publicly about these issues.

42:45In other words, Baloo was looking for Washington to regulate private equity more aggressively. A few years ago, the Securities and Exchange Commission tried introducing new rules aimed at bringing greater transparency to private equity firms and their activities. But the industry fought back. They sued the SEC, and those rules were vacated in 2024. You can understand why the industry is pushing back against even this relatively minor regulation. They own the keys to a gigantic

43:17money-making machine getting bigger by the day. And if it costs a few million dollars in legal and lobbying fees to keep it running, that might be their best investment yet. The industry also likes to argue that its form of investor-driven capitalism is what keeps the American economy so dynamic and that it would be dangerous to mess with this formula. Brendan Ballew doesn't buy that argument either.

Looking to the Progressive Era

43:43His book opens with a quote from the late Supreme Court Justice Louis Brandeis, Brandeis' concerns in the 1910s are almost shockingly similar to the concerns that we've got now. Back then, you had the great trusts, the steel monopoly, tobacco and sugar trust, the railroad trust, and as Brandeis says, the money trust, controlling whole vast swaths of industry. He and others talk about the immiserating effects that this has on people, whether it's employees dying working for the

44:18railroads while heirs to these fortunes have literal hunts for diamonds on their backyards. But Louis Brandeis and others helped to lead the progressive movement that constrained the powers of the trust. He helped to create the Federal Trade Commission. There was a huge blossoming of popular progressive legislation that didn't destroy capitalism in the slightest. What it did is it constrained the powers of the trust and made the economy far more productive and far more fair. Can you just name a couple other protections, especially worker protections, that were invoked

44:52during that time? Yeah, it's kind of amazing. It's almost a to-do list for the modern era, whether it's talking about the first labor laws, the first environmental laws. I don't want to overstate the progress of that moment. The 1910s were also an era that was incredibly regressive racially. So it's not a perfect guide, but it does have a certain rhyming quality for the present in that I think that there is often a sense of people leap from thinking of private equity or our current political or financial

45:24condition as sort of always as it is to sort of a sense of despair that it can never be changed. And I think Brandeis' era shows that it can be because it has been changed before. And the avenues by which we do it are going to have to be a little creative. Yes, action can happen in Congress, but a lot of elected officials receive significant contributions from the industry, as they receive from many other industries. What we can be thinking about in addition to action in Congress is what role can federal regulators take, whether we're talking about the Securities and

45:57Exchange Commission, the FTC, the Treasury Department, Federal Reserve.

46:04If I could just ask you to say, like, is private equity on balance good or bad for the operation of our society, how would you start to think about describing that? I suppose if I thought that it was good for society, I wouldn't have called the book Plunder. Sorry, I forgot to take my anti-obvious pills this morning.

46:30That, again, was Brendan Ballew, and his book is called Plunder, Private Equity's Plan to Pillage America. By the way, his veterinarian girlfriend is now his veterinarian wife. Thanks to him, as well as to Sachin Kajuria, whose book is called Two and Twenty, How the Masters of Private Equity Always Win. Thanks also to Hannah Howard and Dan Glickberg for telling us the fairway story. I would love to hear your thoughts on the private equity industry. Our email is radio at

47:00Freakonomics.com. We will be back soon with a new episode. Until then, take care of yourself. And if you can, someone else too. Freakonomics Radio is produced by Renbud Radio. This episode was produced by Ryan Kelly and updated by Dalvin Abouaji. It was edited by Pete Madden and mixed by Eleanor Osborne. Our staff also includes Claire Keenan Kurgan, Ellen Frankman, Elsa Hernandez, Emma Keisner, Jake Loomis, Jeremy Johnston, and Tao Jacobs. You can find our entire archive on any podcast app or at Freakonomics.com, where we also publish transcripts and show notes. Our theme song is

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