Inside Ukraine's Drone War: Maj. "Phoenix" of Lasar's Group

Background and IT roots

0:00I create our first drone, I create first ISR plane, so this Killzone create war of drones, not war of humans. Drones try to hit other drones. That's better than humans. Yes, yes, it helps us to save a human life. If I see enemy soldier, I understand that it's my enemy. It's not a human, it's enemy. And they are in our land. It's the future for ground warfare. I think it's the future of big drones and many big planes. And drone is the future.

0:30Why don't you introduce yourself to listeners? Some of your background, what you were doing before the war, how you got involved in that? My name is Yuri. My co-sign is Phoenix. I'm a major of National Guard of Ukraine, of Lazarus Group Unit. And what were you doing before the war? I have my own IT business. Oh, okay, great. From 1991, I started to work with computers and network technologies. And before war, I have my own IT company.

1:14I provide services for my customers. It was cloud service, virtualization, cyber security, computer networks, and so on. Yeah, were you involved at all in AI before the war? Not AI, just modern network and computer technologies. Right. So all that related to computer networks, VPN tunnels, and maybe some electronic devices, it's my direction.

1:46I'm familiar with all of this. I know how it works, how I can use it, how I can combine different devices to some big projects, how to get the result, what I want.

Joining the Lazarus Group

2:01Then how did you join Lazarus Group? From the first days of full-scale invasion, I understand that I need to protect my country, to protect my city, to protect civilians from all of this. And I spent two days, and I spent two days to move my family far away in safe place. And after that, I returned to Kyiv. From maybe the first day, I joined to a local defense, and start my night shifts on the nearest fortification that I wanted to get in Kyiv.

2:53Right, when they were coming in from Belarus? Yes, yes. Did you know him before? No, no. I had experience operating drones. In 2010, I built my first drone to inspect buildings. At that time, I had one of big customers, and I supported them by video surveillance systems, security systems, and computer networks.

3:29And I needed to inspect all these buildings from there. So I built my first drone with GoPro camera, to fly over this building, and control cable systems, and roof, and all technical devices that are located on these buildings. I see.

Early drone warfare experiments

3:56So, when war started, I understand that we need to use modern technologies, maybe drones, to fly and destroy our enemy remotely. Lazarus Group was the first to use drones. Is that right? As a weapon? I mean, before that, there was reconnaissance drones. Yes, yes. But can you talk about when the decision was to arm the drones? And was that Lazarus Group that did that first? Or were there other units in the field that were experimenting?

4:33We get a first, I think, our drone was the first real weapon that can destroy enemy vehicles. Yeah. And we show this result for everyone. And after that, I think, our units start using drones as a weapon. And our military understand that drone is a real weapon. Yeah. Yeah. Because the first time people saw this was when the Russians were on the road from Belarus, I think. And there was a long convoy that was stopped. And then you started sending drones to destroy the tanks. Was that Lazarus Group?

5:25No. No. At that time, we have no drones at all. And only ISR drones or small drones like Mavic, DJI. We, other units who have such drones, use this type of drones for reconnaissance. Only. Only. At that time, we have no devices that can damage tanks or other vehicles. Yeah. I thought, I remember seeing tanks being hit on that, in that convoy. But was that from drones or was that something else?

6:05No. Our special forces do that. I see. Okay. When was, where was the first use of drones as a weapon? Maybe it was May 22, our first missions, successful missions, where we can hit some targets. And what sector was that? It was the Aparigia direction. And what was the first technology? I remember reading that Lazarus developed a drop system.

Developing satellite-linked bombers

6:42Our main idea, the main idea, the main idea of our commander was operate remotely and destroy enemy vehicle. Yeah. Like a tank or armored vehicle or anti-aircraft system. All type of enemy vehicles that can damage our military position. So, we start develop this project, how to do it remotely. And the main idea is to use a satellite connection.

7:17So, we get our first Stirlink. And try to do some devices and try to create some software that can use this Stirlink. Stirlink with big drones, big quadcopters. Okay. But the progression was, you started modifying DJI drones?

7:47No. No. No. They were, from the beginning, a home Ukrainian build. We create a technology how we can interconnect Stirlink with, generally speaking, a flight controller. Right. So, we decide big agricultural drone. After that, start, we want to find, to manufacture big frames, big drones, agriculture, and ask to install our special devices with Stirlink on this drone to get ability to operate manually.

8:29And we spend, maybe, more than four months to create a first prototype of this drone. After that, they start using, use this drone on the battlefield and try to do our first flights to destroy our first targets. So, I thought, so you were using Stirlink beginning in 2022? Yes.

8:59A lot of the FPV drones, Kamikaze drones, are using radio link to the controller. Weren't you also using this radio link in some of the drones? Or is Lazar specifically focused on satellite links? We focused on satellite links because we understand that we have a lot of opportunities when we use satellite links.

9:33There is no limitation by landscape. We can fly far away, low altitude, as far as we can. Only one limitation is battery capacity. Yeah. And we understand that drone that was very popular at that time can bring only one munition with small munition. It's not enough to damage vehicle such as tank. So, we understand that we need to invent some device that can bring about five kilos of payload.

10:14not less than three units of ammunition. And we understand that our primary targets is tanks, maybe artillery or other enemy vehicles that can create a big damage for us. Yeah. And then we start work on directions that help us to increase range and some maybe software upgrades that help our pilots to fly easy and control our drone in any situation when we have jamming or without GNSS.

11:03So, we start flying manually. Only what we need is connection to our drone to get a picture from our camera and control. So, our first step is that it was only one pilot for one drone. And after that, our pilot crew consists of two persons. It's a pilot and navigator. A navigator always know where our drone is located because the navigator looks at the camera, compare with satellite maps or other information.

11:42And using landmarks always know where we are and help pilots to correct direction of flying and help them to find this target that we need. And help while pilots start aiming. So, it controls wind direction, wind speed and help to maybe calculate this position when we start to do our first job.

12:19Okay. Okay.

Categorizing battlefield drones

12:21Maybe for my audience, you can explain the different kinds of drones. There's FPV drones, which are the pilot is looking through the camera of the drone, right? Then there are interceptor drones to knock down other drones or aircraft. And there are kamikaze drones, which have a warhead in them, have a munition in them and fly into a target. That can be a kamikaze drone, right? I mean, that can be an FPV drone.

13:05Yes, FPV drone. Yes, FPV drone is a separate direction because it's very small and cheap. And I think the main goal of FPV drones is to destroy small target, not armored target and enemy personnel. Right. It's the best for these tasks. And this drone can fly for short distance. It's about maybe from 10 to maybe 20 kilometers. So FPV drone help us to control first part of frontline nearest area and protect from enemy personnel and not armored vehicle.

13:48Like cars, like cars, like maybe fuel tanks and so on and fortified position of our enemy. Next step, it's heavy bombers that can fly far away and destroy enemy vehicle, enemy fortified position, enemy personnel and everything that they can find along the distance. A kamikaze drone fly for longer distance. It's about 70, maybe up to 100 kilometers and can destroy any targets that they can find in that area. So I think the most important in all of this is ISR drones because they control this area. They can find targets.

14:33And control of movement of this target before we can fly to that position to destroy this target. So I'm sorry. I'm sorry, ISR means? ISR. It's mostly it's a plane with gimbal camera with zoom. And ISR drone main idea. They try to find our targeted control area, analyze pictures, and try to remain tasks of this drone. So they

15:21They fly and control a special area where we can use our drones to destroy targets. Yep. The main idea is they need to find targets. But you started with the heavy bombers, is that what you're saying? Yes, yes. When did you start developing the armed FPV drones? The first step is developing of heavy bombers with Starlink. And after that, when we have maybe more than 10 bombers and we start fly simultaneously on different direction from different position from our front line.

16:11We understand that we need more targets. We need more information about targets because we can do more. We can destroy more targets. Only limitation for that time is information about our enemy, enemy position and location of this target. So we start to develop direction of ISR drones. Our first ISR drone was a plane with camera. No, with photo camera. And we fly along area of interest. And after that, get these pictures and try to

16:55find some enemy targets on these pictures. After that, we start develop this direction and create planes with video camera. So we start new, we create a new step because we have online connection to this camera and can control area of interest in real time. If we need to If we understand what we have some target signature, we can we can zoom in this area and understand what is this is this tank or is this armored vehicle or any different type of target. So after that, we can create a ISR unit inside our

17:51So after that, they started develop the subunit of ISR drones and get more ISR planes. And that place start flying along all front line. So next step was increasing the number of crews. of are crews and all these crews and all these crews.

18:23And all these crews were placed on all front lines. So every 10 kilometers now we have our ground crew with big bombers and every 20 kilometers we have a crew of ISR planes, ISR drones. So all these ISR drones cover area up to 70 kilometers from borderline.

18:56And our big bombers can fly up to 35 kilometers and they come back for a lot. And we have a special designed model that can fly one-way mission and distance of this flight is up to 65 kilometers. What people in the West are most familiar with are the FPVs. Did you then develop FPVs or was that somebody else that developed the FPVs?

19:29All devices that we use, we developed. So we create a technical specification for manufacturers, send them this information and create an engineering team and together we work on development of these devices. So after using in real battle condition, we give feedback for engineers, for manufacturers

20:02and ask them to do some changes if we need. And after that, together we examine the results, they analyze maybe some technical information, telemetry logs and so on to understand how we can upgrade our drones, what we can do to fly on bigger distance or how we can help our pilots to be more effective.

20:32How to do the aiming process more simple. Now we have a special design software that can help our pilots to hit targets when they're moving. When did you start using these smaller drones that are armed?

Integrating FPVs and AI

20:54As I mentioned before, our main goal is armored vehicle. But maybe one year ago, maybe two years ago, we started using FPVs because we understand that using big expensive drones to hit enemy personnel, it's not good, it's not effective. So we started using FPVs to destroy all that we can find and maybe first 10 kilometers from frontline.

21:32In your arsenal today, is it mostly heavy bombers? Is it mostly FPV? Is it mostly ISR? Is it, I mean, are you, where do you stand in that? How do you divide up your resources? Now we use a different type of drones. This drone can cover a distance from maybe 10 kilometers up to 65 or 70 kilometers.

22:06So first of all, it's FPV. It's the first part of frontline. Maybe first, now we're using fiber optics so we can fly up to maybe 30 kilometers. So FPV cover first part of this area and mostly hit enemy personnel. Right. After that, other part of this area covered by heavy bombers up to 65 kilometers.

22:36All this area controls by ISR planes. It helps us to search target, confirm destroying of this target and control all this area. So we have interceptors that control area near our takeoff point to protect our crews from our enemy ISR drones or enemy Kamikaze drone or other enemy drones that can create some damage.

23:10And also we use Kamikaze drones to strike different targets distance near 70 kilometers. I mean, I know the Shahid drones that Russia has been using do not have very precise onboard targeting. And so they're given a target area and then they hit the area.

23:45But there's no, this is what I understand, no feedback to the controller.

23:52Is that right? I mean, how did the Shahids work? And in the interceptors on the front lines where you have these units based, what kind of interceptors are they?

24:13Are they FPV? Are they autonomous targeting? Or how does that work? Interceptors for the Shahid is different type of drones because they need to fly at very high speed. Yeah. So the interception of Shahid is different. It's not related to tasks on the front lines. Yeah. So we have special design drones to intercept Shahids and we have experience how to do this.

24:47And now we increase the number of crews who work in this direction. Incoming drones targeting Kyiv, for example, that you're still using or you, the military, the Ukrainian military is still using human controlled machine guns to try and knock down those drones. That seems like a very difficult problem.

25:17No, we use all available devices and all opportunities how to intercept your head. Yeah. Do you know anything about drones and machine guns and ground crews, everything that we can do? Yeah. Do you, do you, are you familiar with Eric Schmidt's Swift speed? Yes, I know about this project, but it's a different topic. Yeah. Meaning it's too sensitive to talk about or, or it's...

25:51No, we talk about Lazarus. I know many interesting information about other units, other technologies, other devices, but I don't want to discuss this now. And I was asking, so you, you have the heavy bombers interspersed with ISR, you have interceptor drones around your units, and then you have FPV. Are the FPV together with the heavy bombers or are they spaced along? It's a separate subunits.

26:23So it's a separate direction. We have a different direction and we use different type of drones for these tasks. Yeah. And all of these drones to date are controlled through a screen. There's no autonomous targeting yet. Is there in, in the Lazarus group arsenal?

26:53Or do you have autonomous targeting or even autonomous navigation? And now we use manual control, remote control mostly. Big bombers controlled remotely. It helps our pilot be more efficient. They allocated and in quiet situation, they can concentrate on aiming, on flying. They not thinking, they, they don't need to thinking about their safety.

27:26Right. It's more resultative. And other benefits that one pilot can control drones on different directions if we need. So I think it's, it's best that we can do. Yeah. But I've talked to a lot of people who are, who are developing AI navigation and AI targeting.

27:58I mean, the, the, the future is you send off a hundred drones. They know where they're going. They have an onboard navigation. They have a camera with object recognition and they recognize the target. This is all autonomously and, and destroy the target. You're not there yet. Is that right? Now we try to use manual control because in any condition we know that we get result.

28:36Because all AI devices that help us

28:43to create this autonomous flight group of our drones. And now it's, I think it's, it's not enough. The quality of these devices in the middle. So sometimes they can do what we want. And in chemical drones usually used AI feature that can lock target and help pilot to

29:24to hit this target because last miles it's very hard to control. We lose our radio control with our drone because of limitation of landscape. And this AI system help us to fly directly to target and hit this target. And that AI module,

29:48is that being produced in Ukraine or are you importing that? And as I know, many manufacturers of these devices create this device by themselves. They create a software and the software work on small computers like

30:10Raspberry API or other small devices with the camera and this device analyze pictures from camera and try to find

30:24target signature. And after that, sends a control command to directly to flight controller to

30:34operate this drone. Yeah, because what I'm interested in is how artificial intelligence is entering the battlefield. But from everyone I talked to, it sounds like it's being tested, it's being developed, but it's not really being deployed. Am I wrong? This technology is deployed now and many manufacturers work on it and try to create new devices, so I think this technology is one of the most important technologies.

31:12So I think radio links, AI systems

31:21and maybe battery technologies, it's the future of drones because battery capacity is limitation for distance. Yes, AI helps us for aiming without interaction with pilots when we have no stable connection to drone and radio link, radio control system help us to operate these drones when we need to fly to a special area where our target is located.

31:52The fiber optic, you know, this unspooling

Fiber optics and tech race

31:56thread that can go 30 kilometers or even 40 kilometers. Who developed that? When did that start? This technology came from telecommunication. It's just

32:12fiber that usually covered other protected shell

32:20part of cable, the core of cable and next the covering, yeah, but when an FPV, it's just the fiber optic, it has no cover, is that right? I try to say it again. So fiber optics in FPV drones comes from telecommunication. Yeah. So it's usual technology inside cables that bring internet to our homes.

32:52Yeah. So manufacturers of fiber optics just create these big spools of these fibers without shells. Right. So it's usual.

33:08Right. But who had the idea to hook it up to a drone? I don't know who started this, but this technology helped us to avoid jamming. Jamming, yeah. Are the Russians also using fiber optics? Yes. And they're also using Starlink? And they start using Starlink, yes. Yeah. So it's kind of a race between Russian technologists and Ukrainian technologists. I think it's competition in technology. So if we start using some technology after some time,

33:44when our drones was heated in enemy area, they get this drone, expect all inside and try to understand how it works. And after that, start using this type of technologies in their drones. Yeah, yeah. So many people think that if someone talks about this public, some interview or after this information

34:16appears in public access in YouTube, our enemy after a few days start using it. It's not true because they usually try to get our devices and understand how it works, how we can do this, analyze this. And only after that, after months maybe,

34:40they only try to use it. And if this usage has results, they try to scale it. Yeah. Just the changing nature of warfare, you know, in the Middle Ages, it was swords and then bows and arrows, you know, which had a certain range. And then eventually they developed,

35:11you know, guns, rifles, machine guns, and the range keeps getting longer. I mean, what's the range of

35:26general issue assault rifle in the army? I don't know what guns you're using, but what's the range for a weapon that a soldier is carrying today? I don't know because our unit operates only drones, only drones units. I think the drones, it's the highest level of evolution of all weapons. That's right. For now. And so the drones...

35:54400 meters for Galashnikov, okay. And now you're up to... For FBV, 10 kilometers. And for fiber optic, 30 kilometers for the heavy bomber drones, what, 60 to 100 kilometers. Is that right? I mean, it keeps on getting broader. So in that zone, this is people have been talking about, that's the kill zone. So the personnel are outside on either side

36:31of the kill zone, because to go into that zone is deadly. Do you think that's a good thing? Because at least it creates a separation of the two armies?

36:48You mean the kill zone, it's good or not so good? Yes, I think. And it's getting wider.

The widening kill zone

36:56So first of all, the distance between position that creates this range of kill zone dependent current technology. So this kill zone extended by new drone technologies. So I think the distance of your kill zone is the maximum distance of drone flights. So for now, FBV drone can fly up to 30 kilometers from fiber optics. So it's a distance between position of drone operators. I think

37:34this kill zone helps us to place our personnel far away from our enemy without direction, without direct contact. Right. So we have this kill zone create a war of drones, not war of humans. So drones try to hit other drones.

38:03But that's better than humans. Yes, yes. It helps us to save human lives. I mean, when we were starting, I said I wanted to talk because with the FPV drones, are most of the pilots looking on a screen or are some wearing headsets? Some pilots using glasses. Right. And many pilots using ground station with screens.

38:34Yeah. And you know, all of us in the West have watched, and I mean the West meaning in North America, I have watched videos of FPV drones. It's, you're not in direct contact, but it's a very intimate weapon. Because you identify a soldier, you follow him as he tries to hide,

39:09and then you kill him. I mean, that must be very difficult for the operators. And I know you said that's a sensitive topic, but can you talk at all about how, I mean, have you been a drone operator as well? I think you were like the number two or three person at Lazars, right? Weren't you very early? I'm from first day. First day, right. From first day. And two years, I act as a bomber pilot, and I create our first drone,

39:49and create first airplane, and so on. That's okay. I mean, you've operated FPV drones.

40:00Is it, I mean, obviously it's easier,

40:05psychologically, to operate a heavy bomber. It's just different. It's not easier. I think it's the same. Many of our pilots can operate any drones. I don't mean difficult, I mean difficult psychologically. No, no. It's not difficult. Yeah. But when you see a Russian soldier saying, no, no, no, and then you… First of all, we are military, we protect our country, we protect our civilian, we protect our land.

40:35Yeah. So, I think all our enemies are military targets. Yeah. It's our enemy, first of all. Sure. And I think about, if I see an enemy soldier, I understand that it's my enemy. It's not a human, it's enemy. And they are in our land. Yeah, of course. It's okay for us to destroy everyone who tried to kill our people, who tried to kill civilians,

41:13who tried to get our land. And first of all, we protect our country. It's our main goal. That's right. And I understand that. And I understand the ethics of that. I'm not talking about ethics. I'm talking about the psychological impact. If they stay outside our borders,

41:37they will leave. If they cross these borders and they are in our land, they are enemies for us. And they are targets for us. Yeah. That's all. Yeah. So, your pilots, it doesn't change them? Many of our pilots think this way. And this is my position. I think it's my explanation of the situation.

42:10And I know many of our pilots are thinking like me. Right.

The points and bonus system

42:21I read that Lazar's group has destroyed millions of dollars worth of Russian hardware. I'm also interested in this system. I don't know when it started of points that you get so many drone operators, get so many points for destroying a tank, so many points for destroying infrastructure, so many points for killing a soldier,

42:52so many points for wounding a soldier.

42:57What is, do you know that hierarchy of points?

43:03You asked me about E-point systems. Yeah. It's a very nice system. It helps us. It helps military units to get extra channel of supplying drones. So, they destroy targets. They do some flights. And after that, they can get another parts, another drones to do other operations, other flights.

43:34I see. So, the higher your point score, then resources are directed to you. If you have a lower point score, you may lose...

43:47First of all, it's competition for manufacturers. They need to produce more effective drones. I see. With lower price. And military units can buy... It's like an e-shop, yes? Yeah. You can order some devices and pay for these devices by e-points. I see. It's like a virtual money. I see. So, for military, it's a rating of units help to attract personnel.

44:25High-quality, high-skilled personnel who can operate with drones and hit targets and earn more points. Yeah. Wow, that's amazing. Nice system. So, I think it helps drone direction to grow faster and be more effective. And you're originally in networking. How does all of that information get aggregated?

44:57You have an FPV drone. You kill a soldier. The operator uploads that to some central server? Every flight, every hitting of target, information about this is sent to the system. It's a video footage, maybe pictures, description of device that's used by operator, who, where, and results of hitting. All this information uploaded to the system.

45:28And after checking all of this, this target moved to account results of hitting this target, add to points, add to account of these units. Yeah, and it's a central system for all units. Yes, yes. And what's the name of that system?

45:55Army Droniv Bonus. Army of drones, it's the first part, and second part, it's the bonus. I'm not catching the last word. Bonus. B, spell it. B-O-N-O-U-S. Oh, bonus. Okay. Army of drones, bonus. Okay. And who, because I'm trying to talk to Brave One, who I think developed that system.

46:32Yes. Who manages that system?

46:36The part of the system is Brave One market. It's marketplace of drones and other devices related to drones. So, this rating helps military units to earn key points. It's like a virtual phone. And after that, they spend this virtual phones to order some type of drones. Yes. It's an extra channel for this unit, how they can get more drones. You're collecting tremendous amounts of data, and that data is very valuable.

47:12Is there AI involved in analyzing that data? Sometimes. Yeah. So, you have the separation of the two armies because of the kill zone. Is that primarily why the front line has not moved very much? Sometimes, yes, because they can't move very fast. If they try to move inside this kill zone, usually they are destroyed.

47:46AISR drone can detect this movement, and after that, in real time, send this video, send this information to different units that can start operations that help us to destroy them. There is some movement, right?

48:12Moving from… From the Russian side advancing. Yes. Yes. It's… They usually try to move. They try to move their personnel. And they sometimes try to move some vehicles. But all this movement is well known for us because we have a lot of AI-cell drones, and we can control this area. Yes. And after they fix some movement, we start to fly at that area and destroy all vehicles and all enemy personnel.

48:51And the same on the Ukrainian side? I think so, because our enemy have the same devices. Yes. Same drones, AI-cell drones, and so FPV drones and fiber optics. So they try to control this area, too. Yeah. That's why this area called Killzone. Yeah. It seems, again, if the Ukrainian tech can adopt more autonomous technology and increase production,

49:33you can flood the zone, just like Russia tries to overcome the defenses with the Shahid drones. You can overcome the defenses if you have enough drones. Is that part of the plan, or how do you get to that level? Is it a matter of drone production? What's creating that kind of stalemate? I think, first of all, it's a new technology.

50:05Yeah. It's AI. It's the future of drones. And so I think more drones. More drones with the newest technologies. Using something new. Yeah. And after maybe a few months, all these new technologies start understandable and well known for our enemy. And we need to invite some, we need to invent some new tactics, some new devices, some new technologies.

50:44Yeah. Do you have a big R&D department that's always trying new technology, sends it to the battlefield?

50:55If it doesn't work, they send it back. These are the problems. I mean, are you always working on new tests? Yes, we're always working on something new, new technologies. We try to create new devices, new software, new options.

51:13And we have our own R&D and we communicate with other manufacturers. And if we find some interesting devices or some interesting features that we can install in our devices, usually we start testing these features and devices on battlefield. And if we have positive results, we cooperate with these manufacturers to use these devices or technologies.

51:54Yeah. And can you give an example of what obviously you don't want to give away? It's sensitive information. Yeah. Unfortunately, I can share this. But it's the same sort of progress starting with the Starlink heavy bombers moving to

52:18ISR, moving to FBV. I mean, there's always some development. Is that moving very fast? I think our success is the result of cooperation with manufacturers, with engineers of manufacturers. It's fast feedback after using in real battlefields. So, if manufacturers get this feedback, they understand how it works.

52:53And in real situation. Yeah. Not while testing maybe around Kyiv. Exactly. It's different. And they understand that they need what they need to change. Changes that they need to do. Maybe some new options. Maybe they always know what we do and how it works in real situation. Yeah. And they get their information from the central data bank or directly from you?

53:27They get reports from pilots. After each flight, they can get a telemetry log. They can get other information. And they can get any information that they ask. Yeah. That they need. Do you think that traditional infantry and tank warfare is finished globally with this tech?

The future of warfare

53:56And are navies obsolete? Is the air force, I mean, how important is the air force given that you have drone technology? I think air force is very important. Yeah. Very important part. I think maybe ground forces is very important because they need to keep this ground position.

54:29Right. And drones help them to protect this ground position and help to destroy enemy ground position. Yeah. So, but I think that tank, it's a past. Yeah, it's a past. You don't need tanks. Yeah. It's very expensive and it's very easy to destroy. Wow. Yeah. And drone is the future. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, what I'm wondering though is, is the future for ground warfare or is it the future?

55:02I mean, air force, they're developing remote controlled fighter jets and bombers, you know, which in effect are much, much bigger drones.

55:17You're removing the human from the, from as a target.

55:26I mean, have you thought about this or are you just waiting for the war to end and you can go back to your business? Yeah. I think it's, it's a future of big, big drones, unmanaged, big planes. Maybe now we have a lot of different unmanaged ground vehicles. Yeah. So.

55:46Yeah. Are you using, I saw, what was that company?

55:53The one we saw at the, with the, with the small, unmanned. UGV. UGV. UGV. UGV. Right. And it was. Unmanaged ground vehicle. Right. And the company was.

56:07TIRMIT. Right. TIRMIT. It's one of manufacturers of ground, unmanaged ground platform. Right. Are you guys using that as well? And now we start using this type of vehicles for logistics. It help us to move. Supply and that sort of. Supply to our takeoff position and so on. Yeah. But not yet as an armed. No. No. No. No. Unit. Yeah. And why not as an armed unit?

56:38Our main direction is vehicles. Yeah. And big drones. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So.

56:46And you personally, what is your points, your score? I destroy many, many targets and do a lot of flights. And for example, in my account is 28 tanks. Wow. Yes. As a bomber pilot. Yeah. So. Yeah. And the points system, is it per individual or is it per unit?

57:18It's my result as a pilot. And to the result of our unit, we can see every month as army of drones bonus system rank. So last month we was at the third place. You were first. Lazarus was first place. Third. Third. Three. Third place. December 25. Third. Three. Three. For all or only for tanks.

57:51No, no, no. Total. Total. Total. Yeah. And that. But that. Tanks on first place. Tanks, artillery, armored machine. Mining. And second place, anti-aircraft system.

58:08I see. Yeah.

58:12Wow. And that's a score per unit or?

58:18It's a rank between all units. I see. Total. Total place of rank is three. Right. Third. And in direction of separate type of targets. Tanks. We are first. From all units. First place. Etiolary. Mining.

58:44Second place. Anti-aircraft system. Yeah. And armored vehicle. Armored machine. Yeah. But I mean. Is the. Is the. Is that ranking for. The Lazars group? No. It's ranking for all. All military units. Who use drones. It's a crew of one bomber who. Connect batteries. Yes. Install munitions. Yes. It's three person. Each. Each. Each. Each. Every. Every bomber. Every takeoff point.

59:18Have. Three persons. Right. For. For preparing. For takeoff. That's right. Changing batteries. Do. Does. Do those three person. Have the ranking. Within Lazars group. Yes. Yes. Sure. It's. So it's. How many flights. Then they prepare. How many. Maybe targets. Destroyed by drones. That they.

59:46Prepare for. Operation. Yes. And then. That's grouped. Together with. All of the other. Lazars. Teams. Yes. Inside our. Lazars teams. We know. The results of. Maybe. Maybe. Each crew. Maybe. Each person. Uh. Result of. Cirrus. Right. And then. But this. Like number three. Ranking. That's for. Lazars group. Against. As of.

1:00:17Against. Against. Other drone units. Right. Right. It's a global rating. Right. Between all units. That use drones. I see. Yeah. That's fascinating. Our total results of. E points. Show us. Uh. That we. One of. Most. Resultative. Yeah. And that. As you said. It. It's. Feedback. To the manufacturers. About. What's working. Uh. The. The.

1:00:47Unit. Gets. More. Points. To spend on. On drones. But it's also. Like an incentive. For. The main goal. It's. It's war. First of all. We are military. We need to. To do our tasks. Yeah. And this. Key points. Is extra channel. How to get more drones. Yeah. It's not main channel. It's extra channel. Yeah. And this rating. Help us. To attract.

1:01:17Personnel. Because then. Someone. Want to join. To military. First of all. They try to understand. Who's the best. Right. Everyone. Want to be with. Best. Yeah. Unit. Yeah. So. It's extra options. For us. It's not main. It's a part of. Yeah. Our service. Yeah. Yeah. That's fascinating. And. And so you're. The. The.

1:01:44The command and control. Is. Is. Far back. Like in Kyiv. Or some. Some place. And. Yes. Yes. Some big city. Yeah. And then. Maybe Kyiv. It may be. Zaporizhia. It may be. Other. City. Yeah. And you were saying. There's a thousand. How many.

Unit structure and daily operations

1:02:05Personnel. In Lazars.

1:02:08How many. Personnel. We have. Yeah. For now. It's. One thousand. And six hundred. Right. And how much. Of that. Is.

1:02:22You know. R&D. And command and control. How much is. On the. Frontline.

1:02:30We have.

1:02:33Maybe R&D personnel. Located in each. Subunit. So. We have high skilled pilots. With engineering skills. And they act as. R&D. I see. So they communicate. To each other. They analyze. Every flight. They collect. This information. And they communicate. With manufacturers. So our. R&D. Built like this. Right. The centralized. R&D. Because. We have many. Many people. In. Different places. That can.

1:03:06Get this information. And. Communicative engineers. Yeah.

1:03:12How many. You know. You said. There are three man teams. For example.

1:03:17And you were saying. There's a bomber unit. An ISR unit.

1:03:23The FPB. Are with the bombers. Or they're separate. It's. It's separating. Separated. So. How many. Is. Is. Is. In. That. Chain.

1:03:34Of the. 1600. In.

1:03:38Lazar's group. How many. Are. Are. Actually. On the line. Sending drones.

1:03:50I don't know. Exactly. But. I think. Of. I think.

1:04:00Of. Oh. Crews. Of. Is. Of. drones. Operates. From. From. Battlefield. Near. Frontline. And. Bomber pilots. Operate remotely. I see. So. I think. Maybe.

1:04:16About. 30%. Maybe less. Operate remotely. I see. And. Other personnel. Work directly. Near. Frontline. But. Far away. From borderline. In safe distance. Right. Right. And. The crews. Of. Different. Subunits. Like. ISR. HPV. Or. Bomber crews. Operate. On different. Distance. From borderline. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Realism and long-term service

1:04:45You're optimistic.

1:04:49About. End of war. Yeah. No. I'm realistic.

1:04:54What does that mean? It's mean. So. If you have.

1:05:00Sometimes. For. Preparing for next. Yeah. Wave. Maybe. Yeah. Because. I think. It's for a long time. And. Is there an exhaustion. Among the. The soldiers. In Lazar's group. Or. Is the morale. Still very high. I'm in service. For. From Phil's day. Yeah. And it's. Four years. Of service for me. Yeah. Now it's.

1:05:31Okay for me. Yeah. It's your life. It's my life. It's my lifestyle. Yes. Yeah. Wow. Okay. Well let's leave it there. That's. Fascinating.