The Psychology of Cats (Archive Episode)

Introduction

0:00Hello. Thank you for downloading Everything Psychology. This is an archive recording from last year of some of the most popular episodes that maybe you haven't heard. I'm now busy recording brand new episodes which I'll release in the spring. And if there's any topic you'd like me to cover, then please email me directly on paul at everythingspsychology.com. I hope you enjoy the show. Coming up in this episode...

0:30And when they are afraid once, when they suffer from pain once, they won't forget that. Okay, so I see they have a little red notebook and they write down what is triggering fear or pain. And

Cat Behavior

0:47you can't erase that. A cat can be perfectly balanced indoors. If you provide all the resources he needs. When we use the term therapy in cats, you know, the main thing, really the number one thing, is stop punishment. Stop punishment.

1:15French author Colette Gaultier-Villars said that time spent with cats is never wasted. And the great mind that was Christopher Hitchens remarked that owners of dogs will have noticed that if you provide them with food and water and shelter and affection, they will think you are a god. Whereas owners of cats are compelled to realise that if you provide them with food and water and affection, they draw the conclusion that they are god. And Terry Pratchett wrote that if cats looked

1:48like frogs, we would realise what nasty, cruel little bastards they are. To some, cats are masterpieces of nature, angels with whiskers and the source of pure joy. For others, they are suspiciously aloof, self-assuredly haughty and autocrats of their own self-interest. Cats have now been

Cat History

2:12around us humans for about nine and a half thousand years, with ancient Egyptians revering them as gods, which some say they've never forgotten. Now, as an animal lover myself, who's lived with cats my whole life, I am hugely excited to be joined by animal psychologist and veterinarian, Dr. Claude Bieta. Claude is based in Toulon in France and has written many books on animal behaviour and training, including the perfect, the interpretation of cats and their owners. Now, if you're lucky enough to

2:48have a cat as a lodger, because as we all know, nobody really ever owns a cat, then I really recommend you pause the podcast now and order a copy of Claude's book right now. Have you done it? Okay,

Exploring Cat Emotions

3:03let's dive into the minds of our feline companions, explore the emotions of cats and discover how to overcome maybe some unwanted behaviours. Whether you've got a chilled out lap cat or a furry little mystery on your hands, I hope this conversation will change how you see your pet and maybe even yourself. Bonjour Claude. Bonjour. Hello. Merci d'être venu sur le podcast. Oh, thank you for your invitation. That's so kind. And it's so important to admire cats' behaviour. It is. And

Book Inspiration

3:40let's get straight into it. What led you to write your book? And I guess what makes the psychology of cats so fascinating for you? You know, I only practice in referrals and I only see cases of behaviour disorders. In France, we have 12 cats as dogs. We have 16 million of cats for 8 million of dogs. And before writing the book, I was seeing one cat on 10 dogs, for 10 dogs, okay? So that meant that cats

4:14were suffering 20 times less of mental suffering of behavioural disorders than dogs, which is just wrong

Mental Suffering in Cats

4:23and unbelievable. So that just means that people, and even vets, don't see the problem. Why? Because mental suffering in cats is mainly silent. It's dominated by inhibition. When your cat is not okay, what does it do? It do less things. It do no more things. So you have to be really vigilant. You have to look after your cat to see when his behaviour is decreasing, when he does less things. That's a sign of mental

4:56suffering. And that's what I thought. I need to write these books. I need to trigger attention on that, that it's not because your cat is silent. You know, maybe the biggest example is a big cat overweighted. In France, you have 40% of cats overweight and not doing anything more, licking his belly until he has no more fur. These two points are very important points of permanent inhibited anxiety. This cat is not

5:32doing anything wrong, but is suffering. And is that a common view of how to look at cats, that view of mental

Veterinarian Understanding

5:41suffering, that behavioural side of it, rather than just the physical side? Do veterinarians in France understand that behavioural side? You know, I think that I had, I was lucky enough to travel all around the world. And unfortunately, in behavioural, in vet schools, in vet university, there are very little teaching about psychiatry. Even many people don't want to speak about psychiatry. They think that psychiatry is for

6:17people, animals don't suffer from mental illness, which is just strange, you know, because they have a brain. And even if their brain is not a human brain, how can we consider that their brain is always okay, and our brain is, can be sick, you know, so that's just bizarre. And for 30 years, I have been practising veterinary psychiatry. And I can say that cats and dogs are suffering from behavioural

6:51disorder. And they are not just unwanted behaviour. This is disease. This is suffering. And as vets, we have to relieve that suffering.

Animal Consciousness

7:01Is there opposition to that view? Are there some people who don't feel that animals, mammals, cats, dogs have that inner consciousness to therefore be able to mentally suffer? Yeah, you know, for decades, for centuries, cats and dogs have been considered just as machines, you know, as trivial machines, they just react to one stimulus or to another, but they don't think.

7:33Today, I think there is a common point of view, an agreement on the fact that there is a consciousness in dogs, in cats. It's not the same as a human consciousness, but it's a dog's consciousness, it's a cat consciousness, and they know they do exist, and they know the other exists. And when you speak with owners of cats and dogs, they have a real relationship between two individuals, you know, and they speak to each other,

8:04they understand each other. So for people, for owners, there is no doubt that there is a consciousness.

Predator and Prey

8:11So you write in the book that one of the most important keys to understanding cat behavior is to acknowledge their dual role as both a predator and prey. Can you talk to me about what you mean by that? That's very important. And when we explain that to people, really, they can figure out much more how they can behave. You know, cats are brilliant hunters. They are really scared to chase, to hunt. They know how to wait for hours and suddenly catch a prey.

8:47And they know how to do that, and they need to do that. But they are little predators. So there are also preys. Foxes, dogs, even night birds, such as horse, can hunt cats. And when you are prey, you need to be very aware of what's going around, of any danger, you know. And suddenly, so when you look at brains, at brains functioning in cats, with, for example, tractography,

9:23you can see there are two brains who are rolling together, okay? And they can switch from one to the other just in a snap. So sometimes you have a cat, very bored, very calm, and he hears something. Maybe you can't hear that. He hears something or smells something, and suddenly he switches to the prey mode, and he's very, very vigilant, very active. He can escape, he can fly away, he can attack. And people don't, just don't understand.

9:57Maybe the moment where you can see that more is when people, and we explain that later maybe, because it's really important. When people try to pet their cat, okay, and the cat is okay, and suddenly he's afraid, because he doesn't want anymore, and he's going to attack. So he can switch very, very quickly, and vets know that very well, because they take the cat out of the box.

10:27It's a gentle cat, and suddenly he sees the environment, he sees the leader, he sees anything, and just he switch to prey mode. He's going to fly, to attack, to do anything bizarre. So, and for them, they are used to that. They know they can switch from one part to the other. And when you think in that, cats on the line between prey and predator, your cat can be anywhere on that line.

10:58So, each cat is different. Each cat is different. It can be a big predator mode, and very seldom is as a prey, and can be always as a prey, and never be brave or bored. So, who is your cat? When, as a vet, any time I am consulting a cat, I have to ask myself, who is this cat?

11:28Because it's not the same than the previous, and not the same than the next, okay?

11:35Is there an ideal balance between that predator and prey personality for a happy and contented domestic cat? The cat, just in their mind, they need to be both, okay? And, obviously, when they are balanced, when they can be, sometimes they spend hours hunting, and after they can spend hours sleeping on the armchair or with their owner, it's okay. If they are only prey, it's a difficult life, and we have to help them.

12:11If they are always hunting, always attacking, it's also a difficult life. So, yes, to be a happy cat, you need to be balanced between the two poles.

12:24And you mentioned that experience is important, that the cat, you mentioned the vet, for instance, and I think anyone who has a cat has that experience of trying to get the cat to go to the vet if they've been before, and as soon as they bring the cat box out, the cat either disappears or becomes very aggressive. And that sounds like what you're saying with the, they suddenly become into that prey aspect, that they know what's going to happen and they become the prey. And in the book, you mention sort of the metaphor of a cat having a little red book,

12:59which I thought was a little interesting. That every experience, could you just describe what you mean by the cat having a little red book? Yeah, the red book is very important. For me, it's a good image because, you know, there are many psychological processes which are the same in humans, in dogs, in cats. Sensitization, anticipation, generalization, and inhibition. Cats' mental suffering is dominated by inhibition, we've already said that,

13:31but also by sensitization. Because if you are a prey, you need to sensitize yourself very quickly. If you are a prey, you have not two chances to avoid a danger. If you are an antelope, when there is a lion, you have to remember that in one, in one trick, you know. So, for cats, it's the same. They are prey. As prey, they are very vulnerable to sensitization. And when they are afraid once, when they suffer from pain once, they won't forget that.

14:04Okay? So, I see they have a little red notebook, and they write down what is triggering fear or pain. And you can't erase that. So, you need not to be in the red notebook, and that's how difficult it is for them, not to be in the red notebook. Because their part is that cats are not a social species. They develop themselves in attachment. Those are not social. When you belong to a social species, such as humans or dogs,

14:38you have reconciliation processes, which are innate. Because we live together, we need to live together, sometimes we fight, and after, we can have reconciliation. But if you belong to a species, which is not a social species, if the relationship is scary or is painful, you just avoid that. You just decide not to be more in relation with that person.

15:10Okay? So, that's very important. I had a client who, unfortunately, he kicked the cat, not voluntarily, just at the corner of the house. He kicked the cat. I saw the cat two years after. The guy couldn't touch the cat anymore. Two years after, because there was no reconciliation process between them. It's sometimes really difficult. They don't forget. We had that experience as well. We had a cat called Sophie, who was a rescue cat.

15:43A lovely little chocolate-nosed Burmese. She's beautiful. But we feel that she was kicked in her previous time. The whole time we had her, and we had her about 10 years, if you walked past her and she was asleep on the floor, she would just run away. As soon as feet moved towards her, she would remember. And that's where we always thought, well, we've got to be very careful around her because she doesn't like feet, basically. She never liked that. She never forgot that. That's right. And you talk about, obviously, the cat as a non-social species.

16:15How has a non-social species become the number one household pet? Because they are not social, but they know attachment. As a kitten, they need attachment with their mother. And we can see that in any species, when there is attachment between the mother and the kitten and the puppies, after, they can use the attachment process to build relationships and very affectionate, very positive relationships

16:47with another individual. Who can be a human being, who can be a dog, who can be... Maybe the more difficult for cats is another cat. Some cats are very friendly with cats, but some cats just don't want to share the space with other cats. And they can be really attached to people. They can really... I can think we can use the word love. They can love people. And people can love their cats. And many times, people are confused.

17:19It's not a social relationship, because they don't... This is not building a society. But this is a positive, affectionate, friend, you know, love. You can use all this word. This is a true and really important relationship with people. But it's not a social relationship. Okay.

17:47And in terms of that attachment, then, can cats actually become overattached to their owners? Yeah. This is an important point. During decades, we were thinking that only dogs could suffer from overattachment. But we see more and more cats suffering from that. And I had a cat, a black cat, you know. People just left for the weekend, for a vacation of two or three days. And when they came back, the cat was black, but his tail was white.

18:21Because he had licked all the fur off the tail. Oh. By ear licking. Okay. By emotion, by anxiety. And we see that more and more. And we see cats not really, not standing well by the absence of the owner.

18:43And how do you help a cat, you know, if a client comes to you and says that's their problem? They've got a cat who is anxious when they go away for a few days. How do you go about supporting that relationship and building that back up again? We always explain that to be attached is a good thing, is a necessary thing. But to be overattached can trigger suffering. So we need to just find the balance another time.

19:16So we are going, if there is really an anxious state, we are using drugs, we are using medication to relieve that anxiety. And we are always using therapy to help the cat to understand that the relationship is going to last. People are going to come back. And for that you have, for example, to moderate contact when people are there. You have to try to build a relation where the cat is not allowed to come when he wants.

19:54Just you have to give an appointment, you know. And so if you don't give the appointment, the cat knows it can't find you. But you will come back. And after so you have a relation without any negative emotion. I see, yes. And you mentioned therapy for cats. I think a lot of listeners would probably sort of think about that and think, well, how do you do therapy for cats? Do you, obviously you don't use the same sort of techniques as you would on a human.

20:24But are you using therapeutic techniques on cats and also their owners when a client comes to you? When we use the term therapy in cats, you know, the main thing, really the number one thing is stop punishment. Stop punishment. People are social species. Human people are social species. They are used in punishing. It's a pity, but it's the way it is. People were punished and they punished themselves, even if we try more and more to use positive things.

20:58And so when, for example, the cat is being outside the box or when the cat is attacking, is aggressing, they are going to punish him. And with a cat, which is not a social species, punishment is always worsening the case. So if we can say one thing is stop punishing the cat. It never works. So what's the alternative to punishment then? Yes, there are many alternatives or when you work in positive way, you can teach many, many things to cats.

21:33You can see over the Internet, you can see cats doing agility, cats checking, giving hi-fi with people, cats doing so many things because they can, if they are rewarded, they can learn many things. OK, so, but you have also the right to say no to the cat. For example, just before speaking to you, I had an appointment, a visual appointment with a client.

22:03Sometimes a cat is coming to her, and she knows he's going to attack. And when she eats, for example, when she's eating, the cat wants food, and he tries to be very bored and to steal the food. And I say, you have the right to defend your food also. So she has, you know, she has just a little spray. And when the cat is approaching, she say, psh, psh, psh, as a cat who is eating, and say, no, I don't want to be disturbed when I am eating.

22:39So people have the right also to, as a cat, to defend their space. We don't want to punish, but we can communicate with them. Yes. And I think some people listening might think, well, spraying a cat with a little water gun is punishment. But it's not, is it? It's more disruption of the behavior. It's disruption. It's disruption. It's very important to say that. You don't take a water gun and you are not going to go to the cat and doing psh, psh, psh, like that.

23:09OK, this could be punishment. But if you use a little spray, just doing psh, like that, or, you know, this spray for keyboards for the computer, you know, to clean the computer keyboard. They are psh, just like this. You have not, and any, another time, with some cats, very, in the prey mode, you have to look at, like, if they are really afraid of the prey, the spray, you have not to use it.

23:43You must not use it. But with many, many cats, it's a good thing just to say, no, I don't want that. Yeah, that makes sense. And, you know, I'm a behavioral psychologist who deals with humans. And actually, the techniques you're describing about positive reinforcement being actually a much better controller of behavior and disrupt antisocial or unwanted behavior sounds very similar to how we deal with humans and children, for instance, in training. Do you see the crossovers between what you do with cats and actually some of the techniques can be used on humans as well?

24:19You know, our association in France is working with psychiatrists and psychologists for decades. So we borrowed that many things, right? We have to share the techniques. Some things are very good for cats, and some you can't just, you can't use it. But with all the positive way of reinforcement and not punishment, we can do many, many things with cats. But speaking about therapy in cats, we have to say that the first step after stopping punishment is also to think as a cat and to rebuild their space.

25:03We speak about an ecological therapy. We have to think that, is that biotope, is that environment correct for the cat? So with dogs, we are going to look at the social relationship. With cats, we are going to look at how is, how is the territory. And that, again, sort of going back to humans, it's very similar. When we're working with people who want to maybe start a new behaviour, they're normally always healthy behaviours, eat better, exercise more, or stop drinking sugary foods and things like that.

25:44We look at the habitat that they're in rather than any willpower. And we ask them to change the environment to make it easier to do what they want to do and harder to do what they do not want to do. I mean, how, in the book, you talk about five zones, don't you, about the environment for cats, those five zones that every cat owner should consider that they're creating the right environment. Would you mind just sort of talking through those zones for me? That's a very important point.

26:14Cats have, in their mind, they are not also, they are not a social species, they are not a territorial species, because they do not defend all the space. They split their space in different areas. And so they are going to have three areas who are corresponding to their prey mode. Alimentation area, food, sleeping area, and elimination area. Because when you sleep, when you eliminate, and when you are eating, you are vulnerable to attacks.

26:49So they need to have these three kinds of areas really safe. And, for example, that does explain why some cats who are allowed to go outside are going, are coming back inside to eliminate. Because outside, maybe they have seen another cat or dog or fox, and it's dangerous for them to be in a vulnerable nature. So they want to be in a safe place, and they go back to eliminate inside. And people say, oh, you can go out, why do you pee inside?

27:22I pee inside because this is a safe place for me. Okay. So three prey, we can say, prey mode areas, and two areas of activity. One of activities, and one of interaction. You have not interaction with your cat in any place. If you think over, you see that your cat is choosing some places to have interaction for people. And in therapy, we use that, and we call that the appointment therapy.

27:56If you want to have a good contact with your cat, for example, I had a female cat. It was 7 p.m. on the sofa, attachment time. And she was climbing on my knees, and she was purring. But it was 7 p.m. in the bedroom. There was no attachment time. Or on the sofa at another time, it was not good. The right time at the right place.

28:28Another time, as pray, rituals are very important. To have a prediction, to have a positive way of predicting what is going to happen. So that's very... Sometimes people are a little bit delused, or my cat is not really gentle with me. We have not so many times where I can pet it. And we set up this appointment therapy. And we say, okay, find a moment where the cat is always there, and provide a good time.

29:07It can be play, it can be petting. And after, you have to respect this time and this place. And you are going to develop a relationship with the cats. That sounds amazing. I think people who own cats, or at least live with cats, not own them, obviously. I think that's really important just to restate. So I'm just going to go through that again. You've talked about the three zones where they need to be safe. And that's their isolation zone, where they sleep, basically.

29:39They need to feel safe when they're feeding. And they need to feel safe when they're having a pee or in a poo, their disposal zone. So those areas, as an owner, you should be responsible for making sure that your cat feels safe in those areas and not pray. And you mentioned about the cats, and you're coming in and going to toilet inside. We had that a couple of weeks ago. Dennis kept coming inside and doing his business, and then go back outside straight away. And we were like, why have you come inside? But then we realised there's a new black cat in the neighbourhood,

30:11and he was terrorising everyone. And he was going out there. So Dennis didn't want to be out there doing his business. He came inside and did it. And as soon as we realised that, we could start to overcome that. And you also mentioned then the two other areas, the solitary activity zone, where you can observe that hunting and playing, but no need of the owners taking part. But also then that interaction zone, where you make an appointment to play with your cat, and your cat wants to play with you in that time. Those five zones together create that perfect environment for a balanced, healthy cat.

30:44Yes, and more with the five zones, you can see that they are always the same pathway to go from one zone to another. They are always using the same way. And they put facial marks, scratching marks, urinary marks to organise all, you know, all the areas. And they know perfectly where they are. Oh, it's safe. And really, I think that we can't reach that because we have not the ability, we have not the smell as they have.

31:20But I think that in their mind, when they just, when they walk, all the scents are organising, you know, the environment and they know how safe it can be for them. What if a cat is scenting inside, you know, especially male cats, scenting inside? I imagine owners don't like the cats scenting on, and I mean urinating on the sofas, their furniture and things like that. What sort of therapy can be done to help overcome that? That's mainly, you know, the two main claims from owners are uncleanliness and aggression.

31:57Cat peeing outside, it's a nightmare for people, and we can understand that. And many people, as the tradition says, cats are clean, okay, when they have a cat who is peeing anywhere, they don't say because they think, I'm doing a mistake, I don't know why. And we have so many cats not helped by beds or by owners because just we don't know that they are peeing outside. Or for a cat, as we explained, he needs to have a safe elimination area, and he will use that any time.

32:35But as a prey, for example, he's suffering from cystitis, for example. Once, he goes to his litter box, and when he's peeing, he suffers from a terrible pain. Maybe he will never use again that place. Because as a prey, you have to remember, you put it in your red notebook, and you have to remember that in that place, you suffered from terrible pain. Okay? And so, he's going to try to find another place to eliminate. Or someone comes and disturbs you, just as a dog, willing to play, and you don't want to use that place anymore.

33:12So, you have, when, first we have to make the difference between mocking and eliminating. And, so, the posture, you know, when the cat is eliminating, he's quite sitting, he's scratching on the ground, he's smelling after he turns himself, he's going quite sitting, and he's doing his business. And after he turns again, and he scratches, he's smelling, and he scratches again. Why? Because as a prey, you have to cover your elimination, not to be found by predators.

33:47And, okay, when you see that, that's elimination. When the cat stays on his four legs, with the tail like that, and he's doing just a little amount of urine on the wall, this is urinary marking. It's not at all the same thing, because a little amount on vertical surface, always with vocalization. The cat is, when you eliminate and you are a prey, you are silent, because you don't want to be found by predators.

34:20Ah, yes. When you are marking, you are communicating with other cats, so you are vocalizing. That makes a difference. So, when you see elimination disorders, we know that we have an issue with the litter box. And many times, it's just as simple as that. We have to set up a new litter box, because, for example, cats are larger than they were. When I began to work, cats were weighing around 3.5 kilograms.

34:51Today, they are weighing an average of 5 kilograms. So, they need the litter box larger, because the litter box has to be one and a half size of the cat, you know? Otherwise, sometimes, it's going to go outside. You have to put the right amount of sand or stones. You have to find the right way. Many times, it's better to begin with an uncovered litter tray. So, we know we have 20 points to check if the litter box is okay or not.

35:26And so many times, people have been standing by elimination outside during years. They come, we check the litter box, and three weeks after, they say, okay, no more problem, because just that was a problem of litter box. If they mark, if they exhibit urinary marking, that's an anxious sign. That's another thing, because they can't organise very well their environment,

36:00and they have to replace facial marking by urinary marking, which is really a sign of mental suffering. And that's interesting, because we had that a few weeks ago with Dennis. We found he hadn't marked at all, and suddenly, he started marking the furniture, urinary marking. And, you know, I looked into the environment. I was thinking, what's happened? What's changed, I suppose? And we've just gone through quite a hot spell in the UK.

36:30Well, a hot spell for the UK. It's been very sunny for a few weeks. And so we just had the kitchen door open to let air through the house. And I spotted one day the black cat I mentioned before, new to the neighbourhood, was coming in to eat the food, and obviously coming in and probably marking as well. So Dennis was retaliatory marking. So what we've done, we've closed the door, and unless we're out in the garden and can see the door, we keep the doors closed. And in a week of that, and it's all stopped. Dennis has gone back to normal again.

37:00Sure. That's what we call reactional marking, which is not a sign of, at that time, of anxiety, but just trying to recover the marks of his space, OK? Yeah. So because you reacted very quickly, that's OK. It was reversible, and it can stop very, very quick. Yeah. You mentioned the litter boxes. What are your thoughts on the ones that are covered over as opposed to the open ones? Is there one better for cats? What do cats prefer?

37:32There were studies about that saying, well, there is no difference. And I say there is a difference. The difference is that people don't see what is inside when it's covered, you know. If you have a very good routine of cleaning the litter box, you can have a covered one. But when you know that in a study, researchers have little poops, you know, plastic poops. Yes. As they put a plastic poops without smell, without anything, it was in plastic, in a clean litter box.

38:10Just one poop, like that, a little one. Now, 50% of cats don't go into the litter box if they see something inside. Now, if you have some cats, very precise, they don't want to use that if someone else could abuse the litter box. And you have other cats, they don't mind, and you can have three or four stools, and they can go inside. So, another time, each cat is different.

38:41Yeah. It could almost be that the covered-over litter boxes are really advantageous for the human because they can't see the business rather than the cat. And if you can keep a, if you can see it and clean it up, then actually, because I've always thought, you know, regarding the prey aspect, having an open one means that they can escape in all directions if they need, and they can see what's going on around them. Am I just anthropomorphizing that, or is that sound?

39:12You know, another time, you have some cats, when you, we try, in my work, I usually try to think, as the cat I have in front of me. And some cats, you can see that, okay, this is a covered place, so I am safer because I can hide myself when I do my business.

Conclusion and Recommendation

39:35And other cats think, as you were saying, okay, that's an open place. If there is danger, I can run away from each part of the litter box. So, I would say, ask your cat if he wants a covered one or an open one, but if you choose, if he chooses a covered one, be very precise in cleaning every day to take away the stools and clean the sun at least every five days, or the sun.

40:09So that's a huge work for people. Should all cats be allowed outdoors, or can owners actually create a balanced indoor environment? Oh, a cat can be perfectly balanced indoors. If you provide all the resources he needs, such as toys, a cat needs to hunt. So if he stays indoors, you have to provide hunting games, hunting plays, okay? You have to provide multiple places, multiple food resources.

40:44You have to provide a safe elimination area, okay? You can organize, but we do study with a student of mine, and she could, with a very large survey, and she could find that there was no more behavioral issues with indoor cats than outdoor cats. So, sometimes there is quite, you know, people saying, well, that's bad if your cat is not allowed to go outside, it's very difficult for them.

41:15So, honestly, what I see is not, that's not a reality. And sometimes cats who go outside, it's a dangerous life. They can find another cat, as your black cat, they can find real danger. I had clients who would spare money during the years because they thought that their cat needed an outside. And when they bought the house, they went with the cat, and the first day the cat is going out very carefully,

41:45and is going to see a very big cat, very scary. And it was very frightened. I think they had a battle. The cat went back into the house. And the claim of the consultation that our cat doesn't want to go out anymore. We bought this house for the cat, and the cat doesn't want to go out. We let the door open, and it just stands on the door and says, I don't go outside. Outside is too dangerous for me.

42:17So, you know, there is quite a phantasm for people saying, OK, the cat has to go outside. Other people say, when you let the cat outside, it's a danger for the biodiversity.

42:31Ah, yes, for the birds and the mice and what have you. For the birds and the mice, OK. OK, I think that if cats can go out and is happy to go out, and you can provide that, OK. And you can put just a little ring, or you can put colour on the trees to prevent the cat from climbing. But if you are living in a flat, or if your cat doesn't want to go out, you can't have a balanced and happy cat inside. That's not the point.

43:01And there have been studies, haven't there, to say that actually the impact of domestic cats on the biodiversity, the bird population in particular, is negligible. You know, these all controversial things about cats doing damages to the biodiversity is coming from Australia, because in Australia they imported cats, and cats was not a native, natural living in Australia.

43:33So when they went to Australia, they do really, they do real damages. And really it was a great problem. It's not true in Europe, it's not true in USA neither. So we can let our cats outside, we have to watch out, but it's not really, we have not to worry about that. OK. I'm going to ask a question that I think every person who's lived with a cat

44:06has asked themselves at one point, and I'd be really interested if you have the answer. Why do cats become fascinated with cardboard boxes? I think for them it's cardboard boxes, bags, you know, it's a place where they can jump into, and they do the same thing when they are hunting little preys under the ground, you know, so it's something hidden, something where they can play.

44:37I think they love also the noise, what they do when they go inside. They love to be hidden and to surprise their owners or other cats. I think they play very much with that. It's really when I was a student, I remember a night, I had an examination the day after, I wanted to work, and my cat was willing to play with the cardboard and the paper bag. And it was so funny because he was going, running inside, and he was just diving in the bag.

45:10And it was... Yeah, brilliant. It was a good moment. Yes. Cats in cardboard boxes are brilliant to watch for hours, much better than watching the television. Yes, sure. Let's just talk about modern breeding practices and if they create problems behaviorally for cats. Because you write in your book that breeders attempt to create hypertypes. Can you explain what a hypertype is and why you feel that's an example, a problem?

45:41You know, in some breeds, such as Persians, for example, Persian cats, they try to have a flat face. So in some of these cats, you have the nose behind the eyes. The nose is deeper. They can't breathe, you know? So it's really, really a bad thing. Or in the book, I speak also about nude cats, such as Sphinx, for example. So they have no fur at all.

46:12I had a Sphinx cat in my life, and she was such a brilliant female cat. She was clever. She was playful. But it was so terrible. I'm living in the south of France. When she was going outside, she had sunburns. She was doing dermatologic allergies with any kind of plant. You know, it was terrible. I adopted her because she was sick and the breeder couldn't keep her.

46:46And she died after four years of terrible disease, genetic disease, such as Charcot disease, you know? And you just think, why do we breathe that? These are not cats. I'm sorry because I know that people who have thanks to, they just love their cats. And she was beautiful. She had skin issues. She had, okay, why do we do that? After I had only European cats, house cats.

47:20And they can have medical problems too, but obviously less. Yeah. Have you seen, I guess, the problem of people wanting hypertype cats, Sphinx or Scottish Folds, for instance, grow because of the increase in social media? Because there's a lot of social media, people sharing Scottish Folds in particular because they do look very beautiful, their little ears and what have you.

47:51But do you think that then leads to the whole problem of people wanting these cats? Yeah, yeah, because they want to post, you know, a story on TikTok or other and show the cats. And, for example, I'm always quite angry when I see cats with clothes, you know, to post it like that because really it's – and many times, you know, they just act as doors.

48:22And there is a bridge which is called ragdoll because they are said to be so gentle. They are not gentle. They are depressed. They have no more reaction. It's acquired resignation. It's really the way to depression. These are bad things to do to cats. Yeah. Let's go the other way, to rescue cats. Is there a higher risk of behavioural problems if somebody wants to adopt a rescue cat?

48:54This is a good thing, to adopt a rescue cat. But many times, these cats were bred by their mother, were grown outside with no limitation of their environment. What can be difficult is to bring a cat who has been grown outside, inside after, for example, one year, because this limitation is difficult. I say that you can have a perfect happy cat inside, but it's difficult if he has first lived outside and after he has to live inside.

49:33Even if many cats can adapt, if you provide many resources, but it can be more difficult. Also, sometimes, these kittens, the mother has, for example, people, you know, catch the litter of a mother, all the kittens, and the next time she will escape and hide all the kittens and bring them back only when they are two months old. And she is quite sure that she is quite sure that she is quite sure that she is quite sure that she is quite sure that it won't be a catch again.

50:08But this kitten has seen no people during two months. They are not at all sociabilised. And that can be difficult to have a good relationship with them. There is, in the book, there are some cats like that, what we call, askezi in cats, difficulty of any relationship. But we can treat them and we can bring them to a good relationship. It's not a fatal.

50:38And that's one of the things I loved about your book is the number of real life examples that you give of cats and their owners going through different behavioural problems, different aspects of their relationship, and how you solved that. And for me, reading those, some of them I've come across myself in my ownership of cats over my life, and some were new to me, but all of which I learnt something from. And again, I totally urge you, if you're listening to this, to go off and look up the interpretation of cats and their owners by Claude now, because it's a fascinating read.

51:13If someone is suspecting that they have a cat with a behavioural problem in some way, as you mentioned, aggression or uncleanliness are probably the most common, what are the first steps they should do as an owner? First, I want to thank you for what you said about the book, because that's very important. And I try to share real experiences, to show to people that other people are knowing the same issue, and they went through that.

51:43And we can help them. It's not, you know, before that was only putting the cat away or euthanasia. It was really a pity. We can't really help cats. And the first thing is, when you have a suspicion, talk to a vet, speak to a vet, and if it's a vet, it's a generalist vet, and say, oh, okay, I don't know about cat behaviour, see a specialist.

52:14And there are in USA, I know many of them, such as Lisa Radosta and so many people. We are very brilliant people in the USA, speaking about cats and dogs. And so, if you have a doubt, don't stay with your doubt. Ask for a consultation, and maybe the vet is going to say, there is nothing, you can keep like that. And often it's going to say, okay, we have this problem, this problem, and we can address that.

52:44So, first, it's going. And I have to say something, is that we use a lot of medication, and some people are afraid of medication. They always say, oh, the cat is a sign of freedom, a sign you are not going to give drugs, to give psychotropic drugs to cats. Our job, as vets, is to relieve pain and suffering. And the first step is giving the right medication to help the cat to be able to learn another way of acting.

53:17So, that's why, in our practice, we give the medication very soon, because we want to, after, implement therapy, ecological therapy, behavior therapy, and we want the cat to be able to remember what we are trying to teach him. And when we give drugs, we never have in mind to give drugs for all the life long. It's just a period, you know, just a period of time.

53:49You do give six times, maybe one year when you're really hyperactive, for example. We see so many hypersensitive, hyperactive cats needing to be treated with a medication and needing to learn what is an autocontrol, how to control their scratch, how to control their bite, how to control their locomotion. And after, for example, I had, in the book, I put the case of Luca, who was my youngest referral case.

54:19He went to the practice, he was two months and 15 years, 15 days old, so he was really a kitten. And this kitten was a terrible development, needed medication at the beginning. And I had the news from the owners, from his owners, one week ago. By now, Luca is three years old, and he's a gentle cat, purring with the owner.

54:53Sometimes a little, he can react, but he's a normal, today he's a normal cat. When he was two months old, people who had the cat when he was two days old, they couldn't keep him like that. Some years ago, it will be another time, a cat relinquished, a cat abandoned in the street. And because people, I have to say that, people many times are very fond of their cat, they are very in love with their cat, and they want to help them.

55:25And they went to the practice, it was a young couple, a young pair, they had not so much money, and they did what they needed to do to help the cat. And I have, many times, I admire people, because they do really beautiful things for the animals.

55:47Yeah, that relationship, it's wonderful, isn't it, when it works? Yeah, I think that you can see that in the book. We are never in a guilty position for people. People, they are in front of an issue, they are in front of a problem. And we just try to help the animal and the people. We don't want to judge them. That's very clear in the book, yeah, that sort of non-judgmental aspect of it. But it's also very good at understanding, getting people to understand their own behavior around their cat,

56:19as well as just their cat. Because you work as a sort of a unit, a combination, don't you? Yeah, sure. And for that, I have an example. Because it was really funny, when I wrote a book, I thought that was clear for everybody, and obviously it wasn't, when a cat is jumping on your lap, on your knees, okay, when the cat is jumping on you, and you ask people, what do you think the cat is willing to have? What do you think the cat is wanting when he comes and jumps on your knees?

56:55Quite everybody is going to answer, he wants to be pet. He wants to be stroke. And the answer is no. He just wants to be there. He just wants to be with you. And you have so many cats, people begin to pet them, to stroke them, and the cats, the ears are going down, the tail is beginning to do like that, there is rolling skin syndrome, you know, the skin on the back doing like that,

57:26and suddenly he's going to bite. And I say, but this cat is mad. He jumps on my knee to be pet, and after he bites me. No, because he didn't want to be pet, he wanted to be with you. And because when they are kitten, when they were in the belly of their mother, if the mother has not been pet, if the little kitten has not been gently pet,

57:57it's a very bad tolerance to contact in cats, because they are prey another time. So, according to their development, you can have cats with a very good tolerance, but most of cats have not a good tolerance to contact. And it's painful for them. When people gently want to pet them, but the first stroke is okay, the second is tricky, and the third is painful. So, you just have to consider that, and to understand that,

58:27and after, the cat is on your knees, and okay, you are there. Do you want to be pet? So, oh, can we ask to a cat if he wants to be pet? You can just do that, for example, put your finger like this. If the cat comes and rubs his head, he says, okay, I want to be pet, he gives you a ticket for one stroke. So, you gently make one stroke, and after, you ask again. And the cat is going to understand very quickly that

58:58if he doesn't want to be pet, just he doesn't put his head. And so, he can stay with you as long as he wants, without, after, becoming aggressive, because you are just tricked, you are just giving a bad message to him. And these cats, where do you find them? At night, most of the time, they sleep, you know, just here, near the head of their owners, or along the body, because at night, they know they can be close,

59:31and they won't be touched. Fantastic. Just to wrap up, what's the one thing you wish every cat owner knew?

59:43You know, I think that cats can teach us many things. And I think that the first thing that every cat owner should know is respect of the body. You know, sometimes it's funny, because in that epoch, we are speaking a lot about that, cats can teach us that you don't touch me if I don't say yes. So, that's a very, very important thing. And they can teach us also empathy, because cats are different.

1:00:19Dogs are social species. We can have intuition with dogs quite easily. We can understand what they want. With cats, we have to make an intellectual work to understand in their brain of prey and predators, how they behave, what they can do to be okay with them. That makes absolute sense. I found that fascinating. Just like your book, you're hearing the stories and hearing the different aspects of cat behavior

1:00:49and how people who want to live with cats and love cats like I do can help change their environment and make them that healthy, balanced cat is perfect. And a couple of takeaways that I've got from this is that really the foundation of that balanced life for a cat is to create that living space that allows it to feel secure, as well as it being able to explore, observe, and hunt. And I also liked it when you talked about that interrupt and redirect unwanted aggressive behavior.

1:01:20No punishment. Punishment does not work. Disruption, not punishment. I think that was a really good thing. And I got finally, when we were talking about the vets there, if you are thinking that your cat may have a behavioral problem, do go to the vet, but ask the vet if they have a behavioral specialism because it might be that they do not. And if you allow them to say whether they have that expertise or not, it allows you to maybe not just lean into medication. It might be a more behavioral therapy side that the cat would benefit from.

1:01:51There'll be somebody out there that can help. Yeah, sure. And I would say it's important to go first to the GP, to the general practitioner, because in cats there are so many unwanted behavior triggered by physical pain or by some disease that behavior and organic disease are really entangled in cats. So you need first a medical check many times, and after some time, you need a special eye of that about behavior.

1:02:25Super. And of course, the other thing people should do is, I've said it before, but is go out and get your book. I've got it just behind me here. So, The Interpretation of Cats and Their Owners, a really great read. I think, wonderful. Thank you for writing it. I've really enjoyed that. I've read it several times now, and I thoroughly recommend it. Thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you for your time, Claude. So, I started this episode with a quote from Colette Gaultier-Villaz,

1:02:56which was frequently misretributed to Sigmund Freud, who actually is quite well known not to have liked cats. So, I'm going to finish with another quote from Colette, which will definitely unite both cat and dog lovers out there. She said, Our perfect companions never have fewer than four feet.

1:03:17Sure. And, you know, I read, I don't know if I can say that in English, rich people have signs of marquee in their suits, rich people have, and happy people have fur on their suits.

1:03:37Yes, absolutely. My trousers are always covered in ginger fur. There they are.

1:03:47And, of course, a jacket hair for long and long. It's a jacket and a waterproof in the binding. channels are always covered in firs, of the area. Inmun ifier � are always covered in the