Karen's Story

Calls for a public inquiry

0:00We thought we'd finished telling you Eamon Cook's story. But since releasing our final episode four months ago, a lot has changed. Inspired by the series itself, a wave of new victims have come forward to Gardaí, to advocacy groups like One and Four, and to each other. Just days after the last episode of our series, released last June, Labour leader Ivana Batshik called on Taoiseach Micheál Martin in the Dáil for a full public inquiry into Cook's crimes.

0:34We owe them gratitude, but there's a glaring question outstanding about Cook. How did he get away with this for so long? In recent days, Taoiseach, I've had the privilege of speaking directly with a number of the women whom Cook abused, and they have asked me to ask you that question. They're seeking answers as to how Cook continued to perpetrate abuse for decades, how he was able to use his position as owner of Radio Dublin, and his influence to escape justice. It took more than 20 years after a complaint was first made to Gardaí about his abuse before he was finally convicted.

1:05And survivors believe his malign influence extended into the Gardaí, into the church, and into other powerful networks. But Taoiseach, would you support survivors' calls for an inquiry to investigate the state's role in why justice took so long? And I do appreciate the work that went into the making of that programme. Again, another story of horrific abuse, as we discussed earlier, in terms of the wide-scale prevalence of child sexual abuse in our society, and by institutions as well.

1:36And we have a number of inquiries. We've had inquiries. We have a number of them being contemplated again in respect of these issues. To a certain extent, the system has been fairly widely stretched in terms of the number of inquiries. I will ask the Minister for Justice to examine this in greater detail, and we'll revert back to the deputy. While a recent state inquiry found former basketball coach Bill Keneally abused at least 29 victims, Cook is believed to have abused hundreds.

2:08Yet his victims remain excluded from any existing inquiry or terms of reference. We understand moves are now afoot for the Minister of Justice to meet with some of Cook's victims.

Karen breaks her silence

2:22Which brings us to this special episode. In 2010, Eamon Cook received a life sentence for sexually abusing his daughter, Karen. A conviction which, for legal reasons, could not be made public until now. However, today, Karen breaks her silence and relinquishes her anonymity. And I'm like, I'm sick of feeling like as if my story doesn't matter because I was his kid. I'm Peter Mulrhyan from RTE Documentary on One.

2:53This is Pirate Predator. Karen's story.

2:58So we'll just see if they're sitting down then. I just really think it's for you to be comfortable. What do you want to sit? I'll sit down.

3:07We'll both ask questions, but Peter will probably ask more of the questions. I've come to meet Karen with one of our producers, Shauna. This is your story to tell? Yep. In your own way, in your own time? Okay. It's important for Karen that another female is here for this interview. I have had PTSD since I was a teenager. I have absolute fear of men. No offence to you, hence we ring the woman. We're here to listen to Karen's story, to record it and to now make it public.

3:40If there's anything that you, you know, you feel you'd like one of us to leave the room or if I'm, you know, it's absolutely fine. I know you had said in the email there were certain things you didn't want to address, which is absolutely fine. And also... It's mainly things that involve other people. Well, the reason Karen is breaking her silence and now telling her own story is very simple. I'm unfortunately always going to be his kit. Whether I like that or not, it is what it is.

4:10So rather than hide him from it, because I don't know, it's like as if people then associate you with him. They're like, well, if he was like that, what are you like? And it's like, no, I'm a completely different person. Yes, he is my father and that's, that's that. We already know Eamon Cook was a convicted paedophile, a prolific abuser of both boys and girls. But what you're about to hear is a survivor's account of father-daughter child sex abuse. It includes sensitive material that may be distressing to some listeners.

4:44Please take care while listening.

Growing up with Eamon Cook

4:47Support contacts are listed on our episode notes. Unfortunately for me, my dad had started sexually abusing me when I was like four.

4:57And I think you don't also realise until you have your own kid how little and innocent kids are. You don't, you can't comprehend that until you have your own and then you're looking at your tiny little kid being like, how could somebody, never mind your own, like somebody, how could your own parent? That was definitely a big learning curve, having my own kid and being like, wow. Karen is one of Cook's many children and her early life was chaotic to say the least. We lived in like a small three-bedroom house with loads of kids and two adults.

5:31And then obviously there was the radio station out the back. So there was constantly people coming and going from the back garden too. There was a lot of people in a small house with a lot of stuff. So that, you could never get peace. There was never going to be like, or there was never privacy over anything. There was loads of us. We lived somewhere to us that was like a treasure cave. Like there was just stuff everywhere. There was radios to take apart. There was fridges in the back garden to hide in.

6:02Like it was just absolute madness. And to a kid, that fun was, was great. As a child, Karen was conflicted about everything that was going on in her life. It's very not black and white for me. It's all shades of grey. To me, he was also my dad. So it was very different that you had to cut that side off and then look at the person who also was fun at times. You know, as much as everybody knows him as this evil man, then rightly he is.

6:32But it was, it was chaotic. But I loved it. So you have happy memories. Yes, I do. We were, obviously he was big into radio. So there was always music being played. So we would have like little like dancing sessions and stuff where just dancing and being mad. And it was also fun getting to go on the radio station. Like I got to, as a kid, actually go on and talk to the nation and be like, hello. You know, not, not many kids get to do that. That is like so much fun. I used to love being allowed to stay up late to be like, oh, I get to go on the radio.

7:06So, um, and then we did, we had holidays. We went on holidays to places like Trevolgen and stuff. Um, and the zoo, we went. So like as bad as it was, it wasn't all just bad. We did have good times. Um, being abused by him colors that. I think, yes, there was good times and he could be loving to me in a fatherly way, but that was ruined. The minute he laid a hand on me sexually, that's, that's now tainted.

7:37Um, it doesn't matter if he was fatherly or not. I'm not really going to remember that. Um, do you mind if I ask you just a couple of questions about him? No, go first. But you can, it's not me if you want. No, no, you're great. Would it have been quite regular? Um, yes. I was abused by him. So when I was four, it wouldn't have been regular. But as I got older, it got more often. Um, to the point in my little head, it was like near enough every day. Um, for about two years, I would say.

8:10Um, and then he was so brazen about it that he would, he would do it publicly. That you're just like, what? Like he would bring you into the toilets of McDonald's to abuse you. He'd bring you, he'd abuse you in, abuse me in the car sitting outside the shopping center. That's how brazen he was. That's how much he knew he could do whatever he wanted. Um, like me personally, as a kid, I was very sexualized that it was plainly obvious.

8:42Um, and would my dad abuse me in front of people? Sure. I think it was so normal though, you wouldn't. To me, I didn't question it. Um, I think as a kid though, I just, you don't know what's wrong when you're that young and it's your dad. So you know what's wrong in a sense. You don't know what to do about it. So you just kind of, that's that side and I'll just deal with this side.

9:11School could have been a relief for Karen, but the chaos of her home life with Eamon Cook meant she didn't get to school that much. I got my school records and it was, I was absent more times than I went to school. And then when I went to school, we got picked on because I was a kid that was smelly. Like we didn't, we didn't wash. We didn't have clean clothes. And I was a very quiet, shy kid. Like if you said boo to me, I would cry. It was like, I was painfully shy. We were also picked on for him being a pedophile.

9:43We were called names because of it. So I just didn't want to be there. On the days Karen did make it to school, it was clear to members of the school's staff that things were not as they should be in Karen's life. And the school reported to social services a lot of, a lot of issues. And it wasn't just like we were often late. We often didn't go to school. We were often turning up dirty. I know I was constantly in trouble because my hair wasn't washed. My hair wasn't tied up because that was a school where you had to have your hair tied up.

10:13And I was like, why are you giving out to me? Because clearly I don't know how to tie it up. Stop giving out to me over it. My shoes were always on the wrong feet. Was the biggest. I remember so many times getting in trouble over that. And the school did take some action, raising their concerns through the appropriate channels. They complained social services multiple times from my understanding. And what happened? Nothing. For years, nothing. By 1999, when Karen was seven years old, Garthie were beginning to make a case to arrest Eamon Cook for his abuse of other victims,

10:48some of whom you've heard throughout Pirate Predator. As that year rolled on, it appeared that after decades of abuse, Eamon Cook was finally going to be stopped.

First arrest and care system

10:59Actually, after midterm, when I was getting ready for school and there was a knock on the door. And it was social services and the guards had came to remove us. So they came in. I was only seven. I didn't really know what was going on. And the guards then came in and they arrested my dad. They took him out of bed. He was in bed. And so they arrested him. They took him out of the house. Like he wasn't even fully dressed and he was just taken out of the house in front of me. I kicked off. I started hitting. Any person that came near me was getting whatever ounce of violence I had in me,

11:34which turns out for a seven-year-old is a lot. I got taken out of that house, kicking and screaming and thrown into a policeman and then taken to a police station and still not really told why or what was going on. And then I was taken to a children's home. And even then, I still didn't really know why. Care workers tried to explain to Karen why she had been moved out of her home and what her father had done for all this to happen. They tried to tell me. They sat me in a room and they were like, your dad has been arrested because he hurt these people when they were kids.

12:07But I wouldn't listen to them. I walked out. I slammed the door in their face. I was like, goodbye. Even though her father had been sexually abusing her for the previous three years, seven-year-old Karen wanted to go back to her home and back to the life she knew. She couldn't settle in care. From the day I went into care, I didn't know what to do and I became nothing but violent and combative. There was no talking to me at all. But I don't know. I obviously wanted to go home.

12:38I didn't like living there. I didn't know why I was living there. It will be a number of years, not until 2002, that Eamon Cook would finally go on trial and be sent to prison. So between his initial arrest in 1999 and being sent to jail in 2002, Cook was on bail, free to move around. He started kidnapping me within, I would say, days of me being in there. And so he would constantly try to take Karen out of the care system. So he used to just turn up and like in the car, flashing their lights if it was late at night,

13:13trying to talk to staff, taking photographs, taking videos. This was a really confusing time for Karen. Whenever her father flashed the car lights outside whatever care home she was in, she'd escape and run away with him. Staff could see what was happening, but were often helpless, even though they did attempt to stop Cook in his tracks. Some people did. They used to chase him and he would just drive as recklessly as humanly possible. That the other people would have to stop following because then their lives will be in danger.

13:47They would be like, this isn't worth it. So yeah, we used to just then take off and go stay in some random hotel or some random house somewhere in the country. And as a kid, I'd have seen that as an adventure. I was just like, OK. I didn't want to be caught. I wanted to go home to what I knew and what was acceptable to me. I was thrown in the deep end with strangers I didn't know. And I was such a painfully shy kid that I just wanted to go home.

14:20So anything to go home, I didn't care. Were you missing your dad? I don't know if I missed him. I think I missed my siblings. I also missed being able to do what I wanted when I wanted. I missed that. Like when I lived at home, there was nowhere else I could do what I wanted. When I went into care, they were all of a sudden like, you need to go to school. You need to eat breakfast, lunch and dinner. You have to go to bed. They used to ring the guards to put me to bed. At times, Karen's behaviour was so reckless and so out of control,

14:54Garthie would be called to try and calm the situation. Before long, Karen was released back home, which allowed Cook to continue abusing her. When I was eight, I got sent back home, surprisingly. Which I recently was shown a report that said actually I wasn't supposed to be sent back home. It was against what the Guardian of Lighting and the psychologists recommended. They believed that me staying in care, I would eventually settle if I was given the time and whatever to settle.

15:27But I was still sent back home. My father had as much access to me as he liked. He continued to abuse me then. He continued to even abuse me when I was technically in care and he was on bail too. As Karen began to grow a little older, through the ages of seven, eight and nine, she became more aware of what her father was actually doing to her and so began to push back against the abuse. As I started to get older, I would definitely try more fighting him over it, which was absolutely futile.

16:06And then he would just threaten you and tell you, well, if you don't do what I say, like, you're going to get taken off us, you're going to go into care, you're going to get split up from your siblings. Or his biggest threat was he used to tell me that it was wrong and that I would be arrested and I would go to prison. I believed that all the way up until I was 25.

16:31This cycle with authorities struggling to keep age-year-old Karen in care and out of the reach of her father continued. But whatever the authorities did, even seeking a court order, nothing would deter Eamon Cook. So they had decided that the best course of action was that I was going back into care and that was that. The judge had ordered it. And instead, my father had kidnapped me and went on the run to Wexford, to a random farmhouse in the middle of nowhere.

17:02My dad even sent a photograph of me holding a newspaper to social services to prove he didn't kill me. Yeah, because they were obviously concerned. And this was back before, you know, they had social media, before they could put widespread on the news about, you weren't allowed to put on the news about missing kids in care. So they couldn't even report this and be like, if you see this kid, please, please let us know. So we were there for a good while. And I actually enjoyed living there as much as, yes, I was still abused by my dad.

17:36I had gone from being abused by my dad in care and all the chaos. And I really struggled with what to tell people. And it's probably why I became so shy and quiet, because on one hand, I have my dad threatening me that I'm going to go to prison. And then I have all these people asking me questions about it. So I just decided I'll say nothing. So then when we lived in Wexford, I didn't have that pressure anymore. I didn't have to pretend that I lived in a different world than I lived in.

18:07So I actually quite enjoyed living there. But the guards eventually found us again. And then they took me back into care. But I was in care less than 24 hours. And then I was kidnapped by my dad again. It was another children's home. And he turned up outside and jumped out the window and jumped into his car. And away you go again. By this stage, it's 2001.

Attempted escape and car chase

18:32Karen was nine years old. And her father, Eamon Cook, knew the net was closing in around him. His trial for abusing Siobhan and Anne, who you heard from earlier in this series, and two other women when they were young girls, was only months away. So he was beginning to get out of control. We then got caught for the final time on Halloween, actually. It was noticed that we were in Dublin and the guards started chasing us, actually on Chaffa Lizard bypass, which you can imagine the absolute recklessness of that.

19:05And that was the only time that it became obvious that my dad knew he was done. He was getting caught this time. And there was no coming back from this. Now, I don't know why to him this was any different than any other time. Like, we had been in this situation before. But for whatever reason, he was like, I'm done. I'm not coming back from this. When I get caught, I'm going to prison. So his idea was that he was going to kill us. He was going to go as fast as he could. And he was going to crash that car because he was, if he couldn't have me, then nobody could have me.

19:41As young as she was, nine-year-old Karen knew that she needed to get out of Cook's car. And when the opportunity presented itself, she jumped at it, literally. So the only option was to wait until he slowed enough on the Chapel Lizard bypass to jump out and run. Jumped out and ran. You know the way Chapel Lizard bypassed his, like, trace? Ran. Ran into the trace. Fast as I could. See ya. Goodbye. And I didn't know where I was going. Because, obviously, the guards were chasing me.

20:13I didn't trust the guards. Got caught, though. Karen was taken back to a guard the station. But it wasn't long before she'd hear her father, who had also been detained by Gardaí. And then when they arrested my dad, they eventually arrested him. They put him in the same police station in a cell down from me, so he was shouting. He was shouting about wanting his kids, and I'm in a cell, like, not far from him. And it was Halloween night, so actually I sat and watched fireworks through the bars in the jail.

20:44What else are you going to do? And social services eventually came, picked me up, put me back in the original children's home, where I lived there for a while.

20:56Eamon Cook received six months' jail sentence for that car chase in which he endangered Karen's life. As all this was happening, Karen was placed in the care of a foster family. My foster parents actually weren't really told a whole lot. My foster mum thought I had came straight from home. That's how badly I looked. Nobody could take care of me. I didn't let people take care of me.

21:25Separated from her parents and siblings, Karen's foster family struggled to care for a child who had only ever known abuse and chaos. They were such good foster parents, but they had no idea what they had got themselves in for. And then they would try to do what was best for me, which unfortunately meant fighting social services. So they were constantly fighting over things they shouldn't have had to fight for. My foster parents fought for me to go to counselling. That had to be a fight.

21:55My foster mum would turn around and say, this child is severely traumatised. I can't get this child to do basic things like get me to take a bath. My foster mum was like, are we trying to traumatise this child some more? She was telling them I was self-harming and they were like, no, she doesn't. I have been self-harming from when I was about six years of age. I was definitely self-harming. So she got no support that eventually. She had to decide between... Basically, I got to the point where she was concerned

22:27that her young child could walk in on me, having harmed myself or killed myself. Karen's foster parents wanted to adopt her, for her to become their daughter and legally part of their family. But Eamon Cook would never agree to that. And so she eventually ended up back in care, struggling to deal with everything that was going on. She got lost in the system. I just wanted somebody who cared about me and there wasn't. There was nobody who did.

22:58There was nobody who knew what to do. Yes, it was evident that I had been traumatised by my father. But everybody thought that I should just somehow get on and get over that when they couldn't. Like, this is a man. You was all telling me you're afraid of and you're an adult and you expect me to just be fine? I don't think so. That's not how it works.

Trial and conviction in 2010

23:20When Eamon Cook was jailed in 2002 for abusing four women when they were young girls, including Siobhan and Anne, Karen was just 10 years old. Even with Cook behind bars, for most of her youth, save for a brief period release before his 2007 reconviction, his imprisonment brought her no relief. The damage had already been done. The first time I went to St John of God's psychiatric ward, I was only 15.

23:51So I was there for a while. And then I just kept going in and out. Karen spent the rest of her childhood in care, split between social services and hospital settings as her mental health wavered. Then in July 2010, while already serving time, her father, Eamon Cook, stood trial once more, this time for charges against Karen, 12 counts of rape and 17 counts of sexual assault.

24:25I actually started giving statements when I was really young. I was only, oh, like 13, no, 12 the first time I gave a statement. And then it took until I was 18 to actually go to court. And in that meantime, I didn't want to go to court. So yeah, no, that trial was probably one of the worst things that I was made to. It gave me no closure. It gave me no nothing. I had to go and talk about things that I didn't want to talk about.

24:56I didn't know how to talk about. The majority of my guard statements were written because I refused to even say the words. And then they wanted me to go into court and tell strangers. And my dad being there, who I hadn't seen in eight years. Because of how distressing all of this was for Karen, due to her mental health and her age, she was allowed to give evidence to the court via a video link. So it meant she didn't have to be physically present in court. However, she still found the process very, very difficult,

25:30particularly the cross-examination by Eamon Cook's legal team. And then I remember his defence. His defence used some absolute awful tactics. Like, it was horrific. As I had just turned an 18-year-old, it made me question everything. It made me question my own sanity at one point. Even though Karen hadn't seen her father in years, never once visiting him in prison, and despite the horrific abuse she'd suffered,

26:02she still felt a lingering, daughterly loyalty. That inner conflict finally erupted when Cook was convicted on all charges against her. It's very different when it's your dad. I think you always feel some form of loyalty. You just can't turn that off. That's just not going anywhere. And then when he was found guilty, I remember I lost it. I fell to the ground. I started screaming and crying. Somebody had to pick me up.

26:33And people kept thinking it was because it was done and they believed me. I remember people kept saying, it's OK, everybody believes you now. And I was like, that wasn't the issue. The issue for me was, I've now sent my father to prison. Like, I didn't want to send him to be prison. I didn't want to be the one responsible for that. So yeah, but then also the very next day after he was sentenced, I left care. I was moved out on my own with no support, no nothing.

27:00Karen spent her early 20s struggling to get her life under control. So I went off the rails, as you do. I had already had a history of mental health issues from my dad, of having trauma. And not knowing how to cope with it. So I just delved deeper into that. I was constantly in and out of hospital for self-harming, for overdosing. I used to drink a lot at the time. I just went off the rails for a good couple of years. And I ended up homeless at one point.

Visiting her father in hospice

27:31Then in 2016, her father became gravely ill and was removed from prison to a hospice for end-of-life care. I went to see him when he was dying, which was really weird.

27:45I hadn't seen him in so long, so obviously he was a completely different person. It brought back all the fear. As soon as I was in the same room as him, I was like, oh, even though you're a dying man and I'm a grown adult, that's not what I feel. I'm instantly afraid of you. But at the same time, you're also my dad. I'm only here because of you. Dying in the hospital from lung cancer, Eamon Cook was almost 80 years old now and was struggling to keep a grip on reality.

28:18It was about 15 years since he had last met Karen in person. He knew eventually who I was, but you would sit with him and he'd be watching the Late Late Show would come on and he'd tell you, oh, sit down and watch, because I'm about to be on next. He would do stuff like that all of the time. He was also unconscious often. He would go in and out of consciousness because he was on obviously a lot of drugs too. But cognitively, no, he wasn't really there.

28:48He was so confused. He definitely still thought he was this big DJ who everybody loved and he was this big hotshot that was going to be on the TV. That's all he kept saying. Or he used to constantly also say, oh, I must start going now. I need to go home now in a minute and about getting his bicycle to go home. When I knew my dad, he never had a bike. So I don't even know what age this man thought he was. I definitely wasn't in his life. Or creepily, and it's one thing I always found so creepy

29:19and so weird. He'd be concerned about how I was getting home. And I'm like, do you not know who I am at all? Because he'd be like, oh, young girl like you shouldn't be out late at night. Like, how are you getting home? And why are you here? No, he wasn't. He wasn't with it at all. Nothing about this situation was easy for Karen. But she did find a way of getting through it. And then obviously it caused a lot of drama. People always try and tell me how I should feel over it. And it was surprisingly the first time in my life

29:51that actually I turned around and said, you know what, no. Yes, I'm upset he's dying. And that is that. I can pretend that I'm not, but I am. What's the point of me trying to pretend that, yes, he's an evil man and he deserves to die and he's a pedophile. But at the end of the day, I'm still upset my dad is dying.

30:09It's really hard to watch somebody die, but to have it all over the media and people being like, he was so evil and I'm so glad he died and what a waste of space. And not saying that I disagree with these people, but it impacts you so much that you're just like, I'm trying to figure out how I feel and I don't have the space to do that because everybody has their opinion on it. Eamon Cook never admitted to abusing Karen or apologised. Not that she ever thought he would.

30:42At the end of the day, I don't think he would ever admit to what he did. And if he ever admitted to what he did, he was never going to be sorry. What was the point of that man turning around to me and saying, yeah, I abused you. He wasn't going to be sorry about it. So no, it's not a conversation that I needed to have with him. I don't think he cared enough. And even if he did care, he was going to blame everybody else. If I turned around to him and said, but look at the destruction you've caused in my life, he would have went, that was social services that did that.

31:12That was somebody else that did that. That was because of the guards. But I don't think I ever in my entire life seen him feel bad for anything, ever. I think he thought he was above everybody and could do what he wanted when he wanted and nobody could stop him. Looking back on her childhood, Karen is left with lots of questions, all relating to her father, Eamon Cook, and how he was able to freely abuse her for years. As an adult, I question where everybody was. I do wonder why did nobody intervene.

31:45If his victims hadn't came forward and sent him to prison, how long was I going to be left at home? Social services had been involved. I was sent home for Christ's sake. If then people hadn't came forward, how long was I going to be left there with him, knowing he was a paedophile? I question that. And then afterwards, I don't understand why nobody gave me the support I needed. It was very obvious I was traumatised. But rather than going, OK, you've been severely traumatised, how do we help and support you?

32:15It was like, how do we get you to stop being a problem?

32:20Now the mother of a young child herself, Karen understands the value of family, something she's sadly missed out on to date, which is why having a child is so important to her, despite her absolute fear of men. My toddler was conceived doing donor IVF. That's how much it's impacted my life, that I don't ever see me being... I'm actually very glad that I'm stubborn enough

32:51to be like, I've always wanted kids. I will find a way around this. But yeah, no, it's... I'm also lucky in the sense, I have great friends. My friends pull me into line and they'll be like, your trauma is shown. No, no, joke. My friend who says it will know exactly who I'm on about. But it does, it impacts you. I still struggle with being so independent. I have been on my own since I was a kid. Me asking for support is something that I have had to learn.

33:23Something I still have to work with, something I still struggle with. But having to come to terms with being abused by him and what he did being so bad, it's only really hit when he died. I think I've got to the point where I've came to terms with what I know and what I know of my life. And I think as an adult, I finally reached a point where I'm not looking at other people for answers. I stopped looking for them answers. I will figure it out myself.

33:54I don't need them. While some of Cook's other victims are now calling for a state inquiry into the actions of Eamon Cook, Karen isn't hopeful an inquiry will happen. And unfortunately, I think for me, as much as I'd love people to be held accountable, and I'd like to know why, I don't think there will ever be.

34:13No one's ever going to be held accountable. I have to live with the trauma of it. I have to be the one that has to try and piece my life back together. And whose decision was it to send me home? Whose decision was it to stand and watch a house to try and see if you can see a child being sexually abused? Like, in what mind is that rational? To me, that's crazy. Like, or handing me over. That one I'll never get. How can you turn around at social services and say, hand that child over to a paedophile? I don't get it. And I'd love to know who made that decision.

34:45But I'll probably never know. So I have to somehow figure out how do I live my life without that impacting it as much that I get to be happy.

Building a future for her child

34:55Despite everything that has happened to her, this isn't a happy ever after story. But Karen is looking forward, looking to the future, and trying to build a new life for herself and her child. Are you happy? Generally, yeah. Generally. I'm very stubborn and cheeky. And yeah.

35:16Generally, yeah. I have great friends. That's the one thing I am very lucky with in life. And my friends have been, majority of them, have been friends since before that court case. So they know my history. They know as much as I tell them, obviously. But they also know what's in the media. And that's the only good thing. My friends will listen and watch things and then tell me so I can avoid it or not avoid it. They've listened to the podcast. They go tell me stuff. For my kid, it means as much as I don't have family,

35:48he does. Yeah, they might not be blood related, but they have been more family than anybody has in my entire life. So yeah, no, we're happy. We're good. I know all too well how much evil exists in this world. And I know that even though it can take one evil person, there are so many people that will just stand by. That, no, he doesn't leave my sight, which, as he gets older, is something that I'm going to have to work on. You can't, you can't not let your child live in the world.

36:22So it's left me with things, issues around that. Like, I still have days where I'm really upset about this or I have to, you know, take quiet days or whatever. And it's just learning to do that rather than beating myself up about why am I not magically fine? But it's great to know that you know that. Like, seriously, like yourself, and my innocence is amazing. Well, I have to learn. I think there's one anyway.

36:54Thank you. Yeah. Very much. You coming, Baba? You want these like, it's time to... Yeah, yeah, yes. Enough talking. Hey!

37:05You can eat your crayons again. No, chocolate. Oh, even better. Even better. Hello. Hi. Should you do tickle, tickle? Oh. Tickle, tickle. You got any high fives? If you've been affected by any issues raised in this episode, please visit rte.ie forward slash helplines. Thanks for listening.

37:40See you next time.

38:10See you next time.