Is Your Career Stuck?

Sponsors and opening remarks

0:00The new LinkedIn Hiring Pro can't undo your last hire. The no-show. Who set you back because they didn't show up on day one, or day two, or ever again. And now your product launch is delayed because you're talking to alien abduction podcasters to track them down. But LinkedIn Hiring Pro can help make sure your next hire sticks. In fact, businesses who use LinkedIn are 24% less likely to reopen a role in the next 12 months. Hire right the first time with LinkedIn Hiring Pro. Post a free job today at linkedin.com slash quality.

0:30This episode is brought to you by Accenture. When your advertising operations fall out of sync, everything else follows. Spotify and Accenture are working together to reinvent the rhythm of ad sales. Using automation, analytics, and smarter workflows to simplify campaign delivery and access better data across the business. The result? Less time spent on operations, more time connecting brands with the moments and fandoms that matter most. Learn more at Accenture.com slash Spotify.

1:00Let's get into it here.

Meeting Stacey Panasopoulos

1:13All right.

Meeting Stacey Panasopoulos

1:14All right. Stacey, welcome to the podcast. We got this made on a Friday, end of the week, feeling good. Welcome. How are you today? I am so well. Thank you for having me. I feel like this is the best way to end the week. A great conversation and good insight. So I'm so happy to be here, Nick. Thank you for having me. That's great. Yeah. Tell our listeners a little bit about you and your background and your association, amazing association with AIGA in New York. Sure. So my name is Stacey Panasopoulos.

1:45I am the executive director of AIGA in New York. What does that mean? I am the sole staffer for the New York chapter here in New York City. And I run what is the business of this little nonprofit, our little 501c3. And I manage the chapter with my 28 volunteer board members. And they are a slice of the New York design space from junior designers to owners, entrepreneurs, you name it. And I've been part of AIGA in New York almost 20 years now.

2:18And I get to participate and produce in amazing design events here in the city and provide resources and experiences to our design community at large. That is so great. And I think that's the perfect perspective that we haven't, I don't think, had it from your point of view here where it's so much involved with the day-to-day, the putting on the events and the feedback you must get from those. And seeing it for, you know, these last 20 years and even, Jesus, the last one year, it's changing.

2:52So it just seems like the temperature and the pulse changes so much.

Career anxiety across three groups

2:55And what we kind of want to talk about a little bit is like how you will stay relevant when even when the career gets messy. And your biggest kind of tactic here is the idea of like what do you do when you're stuck, when you're feeling stuck, when there's no momentum and things like that. And, you know, anything about the climate right now that you see that you feel is like sparking so much of that conversation where people do feel stuck? Like what are the two big things that you think are getting them there when you talk to a lot of these folks?

3:25Oh, my gosh. So where I feel at a point and I think that this is just as a general feeling in a creative space where creatives are feeling a lot of anxiety. One, because of where, you know, the world, we all have eyes and ears and we see the news. Obviously, it affects us.

3:44But there's more of the how to move forward and how to become a little bit more resilient. As we know, the design designers are very resilient. They they they can ebb and flow into like the cultural spaces. And that's something that's really like amazing to see how to the conversations always on how to become unstuck. It varies by designer and many.

4:14So we cater primarily to the three the three different buckets of designer in their in their in their career span. So we have our student designer who is like, oh, my God, I don't have enough time to even breathe because I'm like knee deep in all of my thesis and projects. So that stuckness is like, how do I then get to be the adult side of things and get the job in place? So there's that I'm in school now, but I know that in a few months I need to not be in I can't be in this space and I need to be in the workforce.

4:48So we we try and work with with students and creating resources primarily for them to tap into, whether it's a job fair, whether it's mentorship and things like that. Then we have our our zero to five years, right, the designer that is literally dove into their their space to start working. And what we're seeing in that space really much is that so many designers now are stuck in this hybrid experience, the the working from home, but also working in an office environment.

5:24And trying to navigate those two experiences are very different. So we talk a lot about how to bring them out, like, like, come out and play, like, let's let's have some fun, you know, opens, you know. And I think that there is because we have so many emerging designers who, you know, we have to acknowledge that COVID has definitely done. It's was a big shift for so many people working from home alone, although you're in a team environment and not being in a room with your peers has created a little bit of that of that void.

6:03And that stuckness does happen within that space. So we we're hearing a lot of that. Right. And then you have your professionals, your five to, you know, double digit years where they are stuck in the speed of things and how fast things need to go and not being able to provide the support that they had as an up and coming designer. And we talk about mentorship and we talk about that, you know, the learning on the job stuff.

6:36So. When we hear these type of like, how do we how can we or how can you know, I take all this information and I'm like, how can what can we do to get folks to to become unstuck or at least to commiserate? I think that's another thing that helps people get unstuck. It's like you're not alone. Yeah. Everybody over here on this side of stuff is also experiencing it. So how about we all get together and we talk about it? So that's what we provide. That's great. I it's funny that the the workforce and this goes for any industry has been divided to before COVID and after COVID.

7:13Right. Because it's like I still stress to a lot of my students, anybody I'm working with or mentoring the idea that you don't know what you're missing with the in-person day to day, the responsibility. Like you said, too, I think you bring up a great point, the going to lunch and just getting to have a bitch fest for a few minutes, like getting it out, like with actual humans. That to me, all those things are the most vital things in like everyone's career prior to COVID. Right. Sure. And now it looked like this attractive new thing that everybody was like, I get to work from home.

7:47This is fantastic. And everyone's on Slack. Cut to those people six months later and they are absolutely miserable. Burnt out and miserable, because I think also what we're seeing in this field and just to I want to give a little context. My background, I'm not a designer, I'm a writer, but I also have a extensive customer service background. So my my job has been to actively listen to people complain. It's one of it's one of the things I do. I do it really well.

8:19And I, you know, and I take I take that feedback and those that insight and I try and provide resources that can tap into it. So when we have. When we have these big stress points and experiences where our younger designers haven't haven't had what we grew up having, you know, we were on the job. And if we were early, we were late. And, you know, like all the things that we like experienced as as young adults in the workforce.

8:49It's very different. So the the post covid space is one that even us as, you know, older folks coming, you know, working in the field have to navigate someone who hasn't hasn't had the same lived experience in the workforce that we have. So it's really a lot of talking and a lot of you're going to be OK conversations. It's going to it's and I don't know, I like I want to hug everybody. I'm just like, you're going to be OK. I promise. I promise.

9:23I think and it doesn't it's not just folks that are, you know, in the workplace. It's the it's the freelance. It's the independent. It's the small business owner. Oh, my gosh. Right. They they're all feeling it. There's a common thread. But then everybody has their own like highs and lows, you know, that come from that.

Why isolation makes feeling stuck worse

9:40If before we get into like a lot of the good stuff, if if someone you think is if you find someone's totally stuck right now, whatever it might be, what's the first thing they should not do?

9:52They should not stay home. They should not stay home. Yeah. Get out. I mean, I think that we don't give enough credit to community in the way to a creative community existing. Right. Where it's it's I feel that we're all very much in our heads right now. And when we're stuck, you know, the tools of getting unstuck really have to just be physically moving your body to a place where there are more like minded folks.

10:24So whether it's I mean, it could be anything. It doesn't have to be anything even AIG and New York related. It's like get yourself out of your of your space, of your comfort zone and venture out. The new LinkedIn hiring pro can't undo your last hire. The no show who set you back because they didn't show up on day one or day two or ever again. And now your product launch is delayed because you're talking to alien abduction podcasters to track them down. But LinkedIn hiring pro can help make sure your next hire sticks.

10:54In fact, businesses who use LinkedIn are 24 percent less likely to reopen a role in the next 12 months. Hire right the first time with LinkedIn hiring pro post a free job today at LinkedIn dot com slash quality. This episode is brought to you by Accenture. When you're advertising operations fall out of sync, everything else follows. Spotify and Accenture are working together to reinvent the rhythm of ad sales, using automation, analytics and smarter workflows to simplify campaign delivery and access better data across the business.

11:25The result? Less time spent on operations, more time connecting brands with the moments and fandoms that matter most. Learn more at Accenture dot com slash Spotify. And it's not. Yeah, right. It's like I told you earlier, it's like went and grabbed my Starbucks this morning and the lady behind the desk just was like the counter was just like, isn't it great that it's Friday? And she's just like I could have been in the most miserable situation or looked at my email, you know, prior to that and been like, oh, this is going to be one of those days. But just walking outside has nothing to do with being another creative someone in our industry.

12:00It's just that thing. So I totally agree. If you're in isolation and you're feeling stuck, I think you're going to probably put six more layers on you automatically and be like and now tuck away even more rather than go out and experience something that could trigger an opposite reaction. You know what I mean? Yeah. Oh, absolutely. I mean, we've definitely seen we know that designers, a lot of designers are introverted and they're very, you know, they feel things.

12:30And I speak to as from personal experience as well, like as creatives, we feel things much, much more. But trying to exercise a little bit of that, getting out, meeting people, doing the things, connecting. I think that those are the things that really help community and a creative person like, you know, get out of that that stuckness. Yeah. Do you usually go back to like even even prior COVID, just normal times when anyone's feeling stuck?

13:06Do you like to bring up like that? This is a common thing. This is a normal thing in every career. And what things do you tell them? Maybe something that may be from your past that got you over that hurdle. Sure. Just, you know, the normal the normal things. Yeah. I mean, I think that the things that resonate with folks are more are the very common sense type things. I mean, common sense more, you know, as a person, I'm extremely extroverted.

13:37I am like, please, I will talk to strangers on the corner and say, hi, how are you? And it's something that feeds me. That's not necessarily how a lot of people operate. And I understand that people's social batteries, I think understanding what your social battery is and how it actually affects you is really important. And I feel that a lot of people are very self-aware on that. So I noticed that. I think it it remains to me, it remains the same very much the meet new people, hang out with common minded folks, whether it's, you know, organized experience or at least, you know, being in a space that you feel safe and that you can just, you know, say hi and connect.

14:21Um, I think people feel very connected when they know that the room is filled with designers, since these are the folks that I cater to or I support. Um, and there is some, there's a little bit of like that chemistry. There's a little bit of that crackle. And this was before COVID and this is now where it's like, I'm in a room with my people and I can say things, I can talk my language and that person next to me will understand explicitly what I'm saying. And that goes a very long way that feels that take that chips away at that sense of loneliness and that sense of being siloed.

14:58And it brings folks into more of a, it like it brings the shoulders down and people feel good. And it's just really, it's just really nice to witness. That, yeah, I think body language is alone could be the thing that just calms you down immediately and seeing that somebody can help you get to that level without even knowing. It's just that community, it's that connection immediately. And like, you're right. Creatives do, you know, I think it's a, we always talk about the, the, the thing that most creatives have is being that our job means we're putting our ideas, our emotions, our personality and everything into everything we do.

15:34So, and then that gets judged and then you put on top of that, some of the insecurities or the feelings of being stuck. And it almost like, it's the, no wonder I think the term imposter syndrome is in creative industry more than anything else.

Combatting creative imposter syndrome

15:50So much, so much. Yeah. What's, what's your take on that? Because like, I, I, we talked, we've talked about it beyond, right? It's such a huge topic, but my, my, my thought on it is we all have it. You could turn it to a positive because it means you care. It means you're, you're hoping for a better outcome. What's, what's your take on when someone gives you that, like, I'm feeling the imposter syndrome. How do you shatter that for somebody? Sometimes I'm a little bold about these things and it's more just because I feel that, and, and, and it comes from just lived experience.

16:26I'm, I'm a, you know, I'm a Gen Xer. We're like, you know, salt of the earth kind of generation. And we're very much like, no, you're going to do it this way. And that's how it's going to work. I think, I think the way that it's worked on my side, I'm, I'm that person. I'm like, no, I, yes, I get those feelings. Those are very valid, but that's not the reality of it. So when we, we've had, so funny, we, we, we actually have events around this type of conversation where we invite someone not only on the design side, but also on the mental health side where we put, we run workshops on this.

17:08We actually are like, you know, these are the tools that you need to do to, to get your mindset, to not feeling where you're not, where you're not validating yourself because your, your creative worth is really much higher than you actually give yourself credit. So we, we encourage vulnerability, we encourage openness, and then we take that and we give them the tools of how to get themselves out of that mindset. It's so common. That's all, that's everybody, especially in a creative space, especially a designer who's working, who's the sole designer in a non-design space.

17:46Right. We experienced that and we hear that a lot. So it's more of like, how do you give them the tools of how to talk with their boss about it or how to educate their client in, in, in being like, I am, I know what I'm talking about kind of thing. So we, we, I, you know, I'm very much like the mom. I'm like, no, this is what you're going to tell them. And this is what you're going to do.

18:11And then like, and then here are all the resources that you can do to make sure that I'm not full of it. And then you can, you can use yourself. It's like hit, hit them with the impact and then back it up with the, but here's, I'm going to, I'm going to show you how to get there. Like, and I think sometimes you have to break the ice that way. And I think you, if you come in soft with an answer to that, then I feel like sometimes it won't make an impact. It could in fact bring them down a whole other level because it's like, someone's got to challenge you. We all get there in a certain zone. I had a student asked me that the other day and it's like, what was, what was imposter syndrome like for you when you were in school?

18:46I'm like, uh, never heard of the term. First of all, I wasn't around. And second, it was like, I realized it. It was like, I only had to compare myself to the top 20 to 30 other designers in my LA area at that time of looking for a job. Right. You have to compare yourself to the entire world because of internet and social media. And, you know, 99.9% of that is not really your competition. You, you don't need to compare yourself to them. They are completely in another realm, you know, another location, every, everything, another discipline.

19:23So yeah, it's, it's one of those things that like, I think it's a, it's a great red flag for anyone when you feel that way. Because if you don't see it, like maybe, you know, that it's such a good reality check in so many ways. And I get it all the time. I had it yesterday at an event and it's like, then I can be at an event two weeks later and it's not, doesn't even cross my mind. So yeah, it's ebb and flow, right? Yeah. I mean, I think, I think the one thing, I mean, it's so human. I think the one thing that I've noticed in my tenure and kind of being, I always tell my board members that I am your institutional memory and I bear witness to your craft and your field.

20:04Because being as someone, you know, as a non-designer in squarely in the middle of a design square, we, it's been really interesting to see the shift of the iconic, you know, design superstar, right? Where that's, that's how it was 20 years ago. You had your, your top, you know, people. And what's changing in that space right now is that there's, there's a much larger swath of those folks who are like the design superstars and who are kind of like killing it and doing great things.

20:42But then there's so much more, there's so many more talented people out there where that pool becomes really big. And I can understand where a designer doesn't see themselves in any of these boxes, right? But also like you fit, you fit here. This is your space too. Like it's, you know, even though you don't think that you belong, you absolutely belong. There's no doubt about it. So that's what would I try to relay to anybody who comes to me and they're like, Stacy, can I talk with you?

21:14And I'm like, yes, what do you want? How can I help you? You know? That's awesome. I think our industry is so welcoming with that too. I've been in many situations where I've been able to bring someone who I know, admire somebody else and happen to know both. And I can put them in the same room and introduce them to each other. And minutes or even sometimes hours later, I hear from that person, they're like, oh, my God, he or she was, it's just normal. They're just a human. But I got, but I'm connected with them now and I can send them a DM.

21:47So it's like those little moments, man, it's just like the best feeling because it's bridging those gaps in so many ways just shows that everybody is completely human. And you're right, there are more, but I think that means there's more, there's more choices to find the ones you can almost make your dream team of, of, of super friends or Avengers, right? Like of who, who really you admire? I, I, and I will, this is, this is the hill that I will always be on.

22:19I have never met a more generous and collaborative group of humans than the design industry, not only from, you know, donating their time to, to great works, but also when they have a junior designer reach out to, like, I have seen it over and over. And this is, this is the span of my, of my career here at AIG in New York. Oh, wow, that's great. It's not a new thing. And I always, it makes me so flippin' happy to see that because I think that that is one of the superpowers of this industry that.

Generosity in the design community

22:57Name some names, name some names. Oh, my gosh. I mean.

23:02Anybody come to mind? I, I, I mean, I'll pull from my board members. I mean, I've been very lucky to have board members throughout the, throughout AIG in New York and, oh, God, now I'm, now I'm, you're putting me on the spot. I'm like, oh, my gosh. There's just too many. You know, it is so many, but also, for example, we've had a few of my junior board members who had just graduated from university and were, and decided to apply for the board.

23:38Traditionally, in the old times, right, it was like, well, I don't, I don't fit in that. The imposter syndrome of fitting on the New York chapter board was a big deal. And I said, well, you are going to, and this is with my pushing, like, you should, you should join, you should join the board. Either my encouragement or other peers of this, of this young designer. And what I found that when they joined the board, they were in, in a group of amazing and generous humans who they could tap into and say, hey, I'm, I am going to apply for this job.

24:15Should I do it? And you have three of my board members go, absolutely, you should totally do it. And this is what you need to write. And this is how you should do it. And this is what you ask for. So, like, that sense of generosity and lived insight was so special to just bear witness from my junior board members or, like, my young designers who are just coming into the New York chapter board. And they were, like, part of this kick-ass community, internal community that, you know, that's been one of the best things. As far as, like, outside, I mean, you know, there's no one more generous with their time than Mr. Michael Beirut.

24:53Forever and ever has been giving his time. Same thing with Debbie Millman. I mean, I kind of consider them, like, patron saints of the New York chapter because they're just so supportive. But we've had from board president Sarah Williams, who's of Beirut & Co., is my current president, so generous with her time, with anybody that reaches out to her, from also other chapters as well, from the AIGA. Like, it's a very wonderful community on the AIGA, just, like, the spectrum of it.

25:29And then we just, you know, our arms are out. We're, like, connecting the dots. We're, like, who can I connect you to? Yes, let's do that. So, we do the same, and that's so special. It's so special. Isn't that great? Yeah. I love that example you said about, like, them saying, like, now there's a real-life situation where the juniors has three seniors around them, and they're talking about a job opportunity, and they can put it in such great perspective. Like, hell yes, apply for it, and here's what you're going to do. Like, that's, again, those are those moments that you only really get with the in-person, like, connections you're going to make with people, and our industry is full of them.

26:08That's so full. That's so cool. And I always say, it doesn't hurt to ask. The word no, the word no is not a bad word. It's an okay word. So, your biggest misstep would be not to ask. Just ask. And if that person's available, I can guarantee you that they will help. When someone's on that first road of, like, feeling off track, if you were to design, like, your perfect, like, reset plan, what's some of the things that would include to kind of, like, make the moves out of there?

Advocating for yourself at work

26:43We've talked about a lot of little individual spots that they could do, but what do you feel like your game plan would have? Oh, my gosh. So, if I'm understanding, kind of, if you're in a spot and you want to get out of that spot. Exactly. Okay. Oh, my gosh. You know, there is no denying that in some work environments, things can be very difficult and toxic. I think that one of the things that I try and impart is really advocating for yourself and advocating in a way where you can, you know, clearly state your needs and your wants and needs and what you want to work towards.

27:28What we're seeing is that there's so little space for that, you know, being able to advocate for yourself and that ties into the imposter syndrome, that ties into being burnt out and advocacy for yourself as a designer and especially in your beginning stages becomes really difficult. So, it's, a lot of the times it's just trying to understand the scenario.

27:58So, I've had a few, you know, designers, young designers kind of like, hey, do you have 30 minutes? I want to chat with you about something. I'm like, absolutely.

28:06And I think what my advice is always like, you already know the answers. Your instincts and what you're feeling in your gut is the right feeling. So, when you're feeling that, lean into it. You don't have to scorch the earth. You know, here are certain things that you can, here are some sentence starters. These are some ways that you can talk, you know, in a more professional environment. But never just walk away without giving yourself a chance to say something about it.

28:36So, you know, providing that type of feedback, giving feedback and receiving feedback. Again, and a lot of younger designers are finding themselves in a space where they don't have that lived experience, obviously, but they also don't have the mentorship in their workspace to allow them to grow. So, they come to us to, like, cover that base. So, we always offer, you know, talking points, resources. We connect them with other spaces because it's not just about us, right?

29:08This is a big network of support that we can provide to our designers. And like, oh, I know that there's this great workshop that can help you deal with, you know, mental health and design. There's this other one that can help you with, you know, feedback. And so, we're always sharing the wealth in that space and allowing folks to tap into where they want to at their own pace. The new LinkedIn Hiring Pro can't undo your last hire, the no-show. Who set you back because they didn't show up on day one or day two or ever again?

29:41And now your product launch is delayed because you're talking to alien abduction podcasters to track them down. But LinkedIn Hiring Pro can help make sure your next hire sticks. In fact, businesses who use LinkedIn are 24% less likely to reopen a role in the next 12 months. Hire right the first time with LinkedIn Hiring Pro. Post a free job today at linkedin.com slash quality. This episode is brought to you by Accenture. When your advertising operations fall out of sync, everything else follows. Spotify and Accenture are working together to reinvent the rhythm of ad sales.

30:15Using automation, analytics, and smarter workflows to simplify campaign delivery and access better data across the business. The result? Less time spent on operations, more time connecting brands with the moments and fandoms that matter most. Learn more at Accenture.com slash Spotify.

30:33That's awesome. I'm also a big fan of folks that I've seen a few friends just over the last maybe six months or so. When they're in one of those situations, they make it a little bit like public by putting it out there and saying like, I want to be accountable for this and I'm telling you, here's my plan. Here's how I'm getting out of this rut. And I really applaud. It's so funny how naturally we all want to like reply back and be like, oh, I'm right behind you. Like we did this.

31:03I'm in the same or you'll see someone chime in with the like, I'm in that same situation. I'm going to follow your thing and see if that'll help me kind of get out of that rut a little bit and get me back on track. So isn't that the coolest thing when you see that? I think those are the positives of like social media and things like that. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think that vulnerability is not a taboo subject. I feel that it's, you know, whenever we produce our events, one of the things, one of the big asks for our speakers is like, you know, folks are going to come in.

31:38They're coming to this venue, to this event because they know the work. They recognize your work and they want to see it and great. But what we ask is always like, give us something that will inspire the person in the room, will give permission to someone in the room to think differently, to, you know, like just to kind of shake up the tree a bit. So vulnerability and empathy are two things that I feel are really the, should be kind of foundational for a designer.

32:13And I'm not saying kind of like, you know, like bear your heart out, but also be okay with not being okay. Be okay with saying things out loud in a way where it's not about offloading your, your, your things to someone else, but it's more just that if you're, I always say, if you're talking about it, someone else is also talking about it. Like, like it's not, it's, if, if it's something that you're feeling, I can guarantee you that someone who's in the same space as you is feeling the same thing.

32:43So when we talk about it openly, it breaks down all of that. It breaks it down and it just like stomps it, you know, and it doesn't give it enough air to grow.

32:55And it allows for, for growth and it allows for experiences for folks to say like, I was there a year ago and I'm not there anymore. And this is how I did it. So I, I pull, I pull a lot of folks. I make people talk about it. I'm like, tell me more. Tell me more. Good. Good. I think people need more people like you to be that kind of sounding board and the, the sponge, but also giving it back in a very kind of real way with like not holding punch, not holding back.

33:27Cause it's like, you can, you can deliver that line, like we said earlier, and then soften the blow and, and bring it back to reality. And I think a lot of people do need to hear that sometimes. Yeah, absolutely. And then you, and your way in is sharing the vulnerability from you and maybe that open help opens the gate to somebody. And I know anytime I've, I've done that in any shape via online in an interview or whatever that gets the most comments or the most feedback. Cause it's like you shared something that I'm doing and going through as well.

34:02And, and yeah, who has a career that doesn't have the hurdles and the, you know. The craziness around every corner. And when people talk about it, again, it gives permission for the other person to understand that they're not alone. I mean, I think that those are the moments, you know, many, I always, I always like to, so on the New York chapter side and just how AIGA shows up. I always say that the New York chapter or AIGA in general, our allegiances are not to any one particular entity.

34:39It's to a core group of people, designers, right? So like, I'm not afraid and my board members know this and my speakers know this. It's like, it's stirring the pot is the important part of these conversations where you're talking about taboo subjects. When you're talking about things that you're like, is it going to get me in trouble? It's like, you know, you're in your safe space and that's a vulnerability where it's like, you know, you need to, sharing these experiences and where you're coming from allows that to, to, to just blossom into something that is inspiring.

35:15That there's been so many instances when we've had an event and I get an email from an attendee saying like, that was one of the most inspiring experiences and conversations. And thank you so much for putting that out there. And that's what we, that's, those are the lines in which I just like, I love to swim in. I'm like, give me that all the time. And because it resonates, that's what I ask for, you know? Exactly right. Now it becomes part of your requirement with the next guest to have those moments, right?

35:48Yeah, absolutely.

Navigating AI as a designer

35:50Talking about stirring the pot a little bit. Let's talk about this in all these industry shifts and the, the taboo word of AI. Oh my goodness. What do you do to help someone like stay relevant as this industry is changing more than ever and faster than ever? Because like, I, I battle with this so much. I'm, I'm a huge advocate for it because I feel like there's no way around it. There's a way for you to have your own individual relationship with what's happening in our industry coming at us and everything.

36:23But what do you, what's your take? If someone says I'm not relevant and I'm, I'm afraid of even two years from now, what advice do you give them knowing from your core of like the knowledge you get from the people you are around? So it's interesting because there is like this, like you said, that top line conversation where it's like the fear and the, and the, and the relevancy of a designer. And it's really interesting because, what was it, three years ago was NFTs, right?

36:56Yeah. And people were freaking out about NFTs and granted, I'm not equating NFTs to AI, but there, there was those moments of like, holy, do I, where, where do I go? Right. And I, and I remember, I remember, and this, I, I don't remember who did this event, but I do remember it was an event with Jessica Hish and there were a couple of other people talking about NFTs and demystifying it in a way, just like, yeah, I, this is how I use it.

37:29Right. And kind of giving it a little bit more air for, for people to, to scratch it a little bit and just kind of see themselves. So that's kind of how we're approaching or how we've approached the AI conversation. It's, there's, it's not a hard, it's not a hard line in the sand. It's not a, we're not planting flags and doing the things, but what we are doing is really listening to the collective experience. So we talk to studio owners and studio and agencies, how are you using AI and, or, or freelancers and what is, how is this working for you?

38:05And what we're hearing is that it's a very exciting tool, obviously, a tool that definitely speeds up certain things, but that the design, the designer is still very central in that experience, very central in the output, very central in the making sure that what they're delivering to their client is coming from them and not from a machine. What I'm hearing and what I'm hearing and what I'm seeing, there's a lot of education going on from the designer, from the agency to the client side, just from what we've, we've had in our, in our talks and that, yes, there are definitely things that are being streamlined to, to go a little bit faster, but someone said, and I think we've heard this many times, it's like AI doesn't have taste and designers have taste.

39:00Right. So like that's, we try and, we try and make these conversations where people, the discourse is there and it's, it's, it's giving permission to scratch that, to like, just see how, how does it work? Learn. The one thing that we know is that a designer is forever learning, not only from new tools, but also from the cultural experiences, because then they take that and apply it to their craft. So I, you know, AI is not a scary thing. I do think that there needs to be guardrails and parameters around it. It moves so fast that we're like, oh my God, we here, well, we tried. Okay. Now we need to do these guards.

39:44So it's because it's changing so fast. I think AIGA as an association is just like, definitely we're like, okay, we have to talk about it. How are we going to make it so that people feel supported and not completely, you know, put onto the, like, we're not jumping on an AI bandwagon, but we're acknowledging its power and its capabilities for the craft of design. Yeah. I, I thought of it as like, the rug's been pulled up from all of us and we're all still in the air figuring out how to land. And yeah, it's, it's such a unique conversation. I love talking with people about it. Cause I feel like it's, it is this game changer in so many ways, but it's so fast. It's such a huge wave coming. And sometimes it's almost like we were talking about the other day. I'm like in five years from now, can we truly.

40:35Predict where we're going to be and what a typical five year out of school designer is going to look like in five to 10 years from now with the way it's going and will they be needed? Will, what, how do we get the younger generation? Anyone who's in school right now to be prepared for it? Cause it's like, you can't even predict next week. Like what's going to happen with AI. Yeah. Let alone the industry as a whole in five years. So it's like, like, you know, stay tuned, watch this space.

41:09It's very much stay tuned. It's very much. I mean, and I think that it's, it becomes, you know, it's not a, it shouldn't be a fear mongering experience. Right. And I think that again, it very much ties into the imposter syndrome feeling like, holy crap, is a, is a, is a machine going to take over my job? It's like, no, no, you're, you have spent years, years honing your craft. And that is a craft that is solely to your, to your, you know, specs. Right. And that is the magic that AI will never have, where it's like a lived experience, an understanding, a cultural understanding.

41:57You know, I tell my, and my board, I don't need to hear it from me, but it's like very much like you're the culture setters. And that's important because what you take in, you ingest, you put out into a, into your craft and that a machine will never be able. Yeah. It's almost like you want to start making your little, your little tool bag, your, who you are as a person, a designer, contributor, you know, a colleague, all those things, a hireable person, a leader, whatever we're, whatever role we're going to play in and have the tools in there that you, like you mentioned that, you know, AI could not replicate or do and really lean on that.

42:36And I think the hardest part I usually get is the younger group or the current student group, or maybe even someone that's, you know, in their first few years of a design career does, hasn't identified those yet. What, what are my core attributes in there? And I think you just brought up a few good things to start that collection off with. And that just might be your taste, your opinion, your judgment, the fact that you are a sponge, you know, like I remember working with someone and he was so up to date on everything that was happening in this pop culture kind of phenomenon that we would always laugh and be like, you're the last person we'd expect to like know about this, this.

43:14And he's, and he just looked at everybody and says, I'm in communication. I have to know these things. Like, and I just thought, yeah, you, you have to live a life to know how to create art and to create commerce and, and persuasion and all the things that we have to do that our art does. So I just thought that was a really neat take. And we don't get, and I mean, I feel like that's the, that is the belief that so many folks, like, it's not lauded enough.

43:44Like that, where it's given, giving a young, as, as your young designer is going into the workforce, it's like, no, you, you, you have it. You have the skills to extract from your lived experience and from your outside space, right? And deliver something that would be beneficial for a client to, to get.

44:11And I think that that's where the, the senior designer or the creative director are like, those are the moments where we know that that gap is lacking right now because of the speed of how things are being done. And also the very siloed experience from designers who are working from home. Granted, they're working from home some days, but also working in the office. And that culture, I feel like that's right now, that's where we are trying to rebuild that design culture in a workspace that creates the collaborative and the, and generates that, that sparkle that designers used to have.

44:51Of like, of like being in a room and just like creating beautiful things. Yeah. That's a great way to look at it. Like, keep that, that little like guiding principle in mind as we navigate through all this. Is it almost, I almost think maybe we needed this as this kick in the butt to be like, get back together with the team, the communities, the other folks, you know, that do this. Because this is coming and we, we can be those guardrails. We can be, we're the users of it.

45:22You know, I feel like that. So until it's completely out of our control, I want to be, I want to be steering the ship. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that that, that's, we have that. And, and we're, we're not giving each other enough credit that we actually have that power and, you know, kind of like doing the, I give up stuff. Like that's not, that's not a designer's, that's not a designer's ethos. If anything, designers are like, I'm sorry, there's a bigger problem. No, no, let me lean right even more.

45:53I'm going to just spend way more time trying to figure this out. And I think that that's really the beauty of, you know, bearing witness to how a designer operates, which is very much about the bigger picture, but then going in and trying to figure out the core, like what is a foundation? If there's a kink in that foundation, let me fix it so that it can grow more. And it becomes this really interesting thing to witness because you see it when it works and when you have like studios that are doing some really great work, you find out that, yeah, they're in the office and yeah, they have retreats or they get together or they do things together and they have a good company culture and they support each other.

46:40And, you know, all of those kinds of things, things that we took for granted prior to COVID. I feel like that's, those are things like, yeah, of course we're going to go grab drinks with coworkers on a Thursday night. That's just so normal. And now it's more just like, you know, trying to reestablish that. Oh, we could do that? I know, like, oh my gosh, what? Stop asking for permission. The boss is paying? Yeah, boss is going to buy you a round of drinks, you know?

And I think that just, we have to give each other permission to do that again and to be, and to have fun. And I think that we're not having fun right now and it's, it's, and it's showing and it's showing just like how people are feeling about their, their craft, but also just, you know, how, what are the outputs into, into the world where it's like, just, we just need to kind of get out of our heads a bit.

47:26Yeah, I love that. I got one last question for you. Sure. All right.

Curiosity and asking for help

47:30So what habit that you've been repeating over and over again in your career has had the biggest impact on your career durability? The new LinkedIn hiring pro can't undo your last hire. The no show who set you back because they didn't show up on day one or day two or ever again. And now your product launch is delayed because you're talking to alien abduction podcasters to track them down. But LinkedIn hiring pro can help make sure your next hire sticks. In fact, businesses who use LinkedIn are 24% less likely to reopen a role in the next 12 months.

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48:35Learn more at Accenture.com slash Spotify. Um, curiosity. I think for me, what has been my, my North Star is just talking to people. It's one of my favorite things to do. I do. I mean, from just, and I blame my mother for this. She had this very funny habit of, um, talking to cab drivers when I was a kid.

49:08Now, when I was a kid, I was like, oh my God, can you please not talk to the cab driver right now? And now that's what I do. And I am a story gatherer. I love, I'm a writer by trade. So I'm, I, that is what I studied in school. And for me, um, in particular, a memoir writer. So nonfiction. So I'm like, give me the stories. I want to hear them all. And what has been.

49:34My base is really actively listening and being able to see and where people are in their space from, you know, and then not trying to fix it. But giving, trying to work different perspectives for folks to see themselves a different way. I, I am a mirror to a designer's life in the sense of like, you show me what you got. Let me shine that right back to you. Because I can tell you that what you think you see is very different than what is really there.

50:07So I love to kind of create that, those experiences and those conversations. Anything that's like, yes, let's sit down and talk about it. I love to just do that. I've been doing it for, for as long as I can remember. It's always involved a conversation and it's always involved a, okay, so what are we going to do about it? Um, curiosity and, and just, yeah, that's very much how I operate. It sounds like that habit was maybe more innate in you because of like your mom.

50:38And I, I have that same kind of, I think it comes from my parents as well. Is there one that you have to force yourself to do? A habit? Oh gosh. Um, ask for help.

50:52I love it. Yeah. Still, still difficult, right? Delegate or ask for help. Ask for help. And, and, you know, when I think the, the, the space of being a staffer and working with a volunteer board, for me, I'm very protective of my board because I know that they're very, very busy people. So I tried to kind of just like take on, I'm like, no, I'll take all of this. And a few years ago, and again, I think this just comes with age. I'm like, Hmm, I need help.

51:22I can't do it all. So being able to just have that vulnerability and saying, I am not a superhuman. I also like to have my work-life balance and all those kinds of things. I have a family at home and all that good stuff. Um, that's the one that was, that was the biggest learning of just like being able to say, I can't do it all. I need some help. And, uh, I mean, every time it just never fails. Everybody was just like, of course, of course we're going to do that.

51:53Help you. Yeah. That's been the one. I think we're, we're identical on both. That is a, that is a hard thing to do. It's great when you got a huge team of people and they are like, you know, it's not in your, like your situation where I get it. You're like protective. And it's like, there's certain things and they, they're volunteering. I'm assuming to doing that. Oh, absolutely. Yeah. But if you're on a, you know, but like that delegating thing, it's like my number one flaw is that like, I'll just be like, Oh, I'll just do it. It'll take too long to explain to somebody what it needs to be.

52:24I could do it in that same time. And it's like, that's such a bad habit for me. And so like, yeah, you're right. Just getting that done. And, and it makes a lot of sense. It helps out. You're, you're so much more level-headed after getting used to the idea of making that a habit, even when you have to force it and it never feels better. It's still a forced thing for me. Oh, oh yeah. It's very, it feels very uncomfortable. It feels, I mean, and again, it's, it ties back to that vulnerability. Um, but you know, I think the beauty of getting older and living life is that, you know, you see the bigger picture of what does this all mean at the end of the day?

53:04You know, are you, if you're feeling fulfilled and if you're feeling good about the things that you're doing, bring people along with you and they will also enjoy that ride as well. So like, that's, that's pretty, that's where, that's the journey where I've been in now as a, as a coming into this space of, of leadership, of that leadership is way more fulfilling when you are honest and vulnerable and human, number one, human.

53:38And that there's, you know, there's, you know, there's cracks in, cracks in the shield and it's, and it's okay. And you will, I mean, I've, I have never experienced judgment for, for any of those things. So I just, now I'm like, okay. There you go.

53:57Help. That's what we'll call the episode.

54:02The big old exclamation mark. Right. Well, Stacey, thank you so much for joining us. I think you got some great wisdom there. Hopefully everyone kind of digs it. Where can folks find you?

Where to find the AIGA New York

54:12I'll have it down below, but go ahead and shout out wherever they can find you at. You can find me. We, I live in the space of AIGANY.org. My contact info is there under the staff page. Or you can see us at the 20 bajillion events that we do in New York City. Yeah. Amazing. Thanks so much. And happy Friday and have a great weekend. Thank you so much, Nick. Be well. My pleasure. Bye.

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