Build Better Creative Teams - Kiser Barnes

Meet Kaiser Barnes

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0:30The new Red Bull Dragonberry Energizer is now at McDonald's. Made with freeze-dried dragon fruit. And made to lock in. The all-new Energizer. Now at McDonald's. Hey, everybody. Welcome to episode 13 of The Next Level, part of the DGDC Network.

1:05My name's Tom Lauer, your host, and I'm here with a new friend, Kaiser Barnes. Kaiser, how are you? So good. So nice to be hanging out with you and be on the podcast. Really appreciate it. Yeah, I'm glad we got this going. Absolutely. A big fan of the podcast. And yeah, I'm so excited to like talk about this stuff. I'm like just a, you know, hardcore nerd about all that. Yeah, any chance to like hear me, you know, hear me like ramble, hopefully is good for everyone else.

1:39Yeah, no, it's kind of, you know, how this all started. It was just like good conversations with good people. And, you know, we met face to face like a couple of weeks ago at an AIGA New York event that you were speaking at. And I just was like, this guy is so salt of the earth. And like, you know, it's just like, I'm like, I'm always looking for people that I'm like, you know, good vibes and like good conversation. And I was just like, this would be like, I feel like you have something good to offer to, you know, the group of creatives for this like type of podcast.

2:13But yeah, I'm, you know, I'm excited for us to get into it. But why don't you just like start out and like tell everybody kind of like who you are, like what you're doing now and kind of like where you came from and your whole like origin story. Yeah, well, thanks for the compliment and appreciate you saying that. But I think, you know, the AIGA event was so cool. It was so nice to meet you there. I was on a panel with a bunch of like really great kind of industry leaders talking about great design and, you know, their design careers and love to talk about that stuff because I think it's really valuable to everyone, including myself.

2:49Like just being on that panel, I was like, wow, I learned so much from the people on the panel with me. And I think that like, you know, we can often be like in our own bubbles and not kind of, and not like kind of exposed sometimes to like the world around us and the ways that people think. And I think especially during like in this mode of like virtual, virtual world. But yeah, I'm Kaiser Barnes. I'm chief creative officer and partner at Red Antler. I help lead the creative vision of all the exciting work that we do at Red Antler, which is really like foundationally Red Antler is an agency that built itself around startup brands.

3:26So 18 years ago, Red Antler has been around for 18 years, which is nuts. Like I think such a cool legacy. But Red Antler has been around for 18 years. They started in the direct-to-consumer era when brands were sort of like going from retail into social commerce. So brands like Casper, Allbirds, you know, it was that era of like everything going from like a shop to like being able to shop for it on like Instagram. And, you know, it was a really exciting era for brand building. I think Red Antler sort of dominated that era and like recently has been evolving and shifting as any agency at that age does into a space of really thinking about like what's their next vision for creativity and for brand building as brand building has shifted and evolved so much over the years.

4:13And so I joined two years ago to help define like the next era of Red Antler, which is like such an exciting like proposition, you know, like to come in and like I've been a change agent, I think, for brands in a lot of ways. And like so to do that, like at an agency in terms of like the creative vision for what that agency might become and such a like incredible agency, like just in reputationally and like in the industry was like a very exciting thing. Like a lot of people know Red Antler, they like aware of the work that Red Antler did.

4:43So it was like it was such like an honor really to like come in and help like be like an extension of the agency into the future and into the future of what it does.

Third Culture Roots

4:52I'll give you like my long story of origin, you know, like in terms of how I landed at Red Antler where I am today as a designer. But I my parents are American, so I was born, but I was born abroad. Like I'm what they call third culture kid, which is like there are people who are born like you're American, but you're born in another country. So you kind of like like are part of another culture, but you're, you know, part of this culture. So you have like these multicultural like kind of identities. So I was born in West Africa and Benin, which is a small French speaking West African country.

5:27I lived in Nigeria for like a long period of my early childhood. And then I lived in the Middle East and then I came to New York for college. So I've kind of had this like journey through multiple like continents and countries, but my parents are American. So I always had this like thing of like a little bit being like an outsider, but also like an insider in a lot of ways. And I think that's shaped my perspective around creativity and design because I've always like looked at things, I think, differently from the spaces and in the environments that I was in.

5:57Being able to kind of connect dots across like lots of different experiences in my background. And so I came to New York, which like I immediately fell in love with because I think like New York City kind of represents like everything about my background. Like it's a city that has like so much incredible, like, you know, cultural diversity, creative diversity, intellectual diversity. And so like I just loved like when I moved here, just I fell in love and I've had this like passionate love affair with New York City for the past 23 years. I started my career as a graphic designer and I had this like really interesting kind of curiosity in my early career where I would like pursue what I thought was next in terms of creative evolution and cultural evolution.

6:43So I started as a graphic designer, but I worked as an art director for a while in advertising. I worked in digital kind of building sites and apps and, you know, kind of digital platforms. I worked in experiential when that was like a big thing about 10, you know, 12, 15 years ago. And so like I was always like kind of curious about like what's the next sort of like evolution of not just creativity, but design. Like how do I take my like principles and foundation of design into new spaces?

7:14And I was always like super curious about that. And I never like was like a like hardcore, like literal designer. Like I took the principles and the foundation that I had, but I always was like trying to build on that, you know? And so I think of myself as like a generalist, but like in it, I've like specialized in lots of different categories. And so over the course of like 23 years of a career, I've kind of built like this generalist, multidisciplinary approach to design, creativity and marketing, which I think is like actually perfectly suited for the world that we're in now.

7:50And I always say that like design now is no longer and brand building now is no longer about, you know, a logo or wordmark or like a symbol. It's really like sometimes the most important place to build a brand might be like a social platform, right? Or it might be like an experiential activation. And so I've like kind of created this career around like thinking about brand really holistically and being the guy that can go into any conversation with marketing leaders, business leaders, creative leaders, and really identify like what I think are the best opportunities to build a brand while also like laying the foundation for that brand.

8:29So that's kind of been like the core of my career and like my experience and I'm really bringing that to the table at Red Antler and in terms of like the future of the types of brands that we want to build. And prior to Red Antler, I was a Digitas and publicist group. So I've worked at like huge scale of organizations and brands. Like I was working on brands like Crocs and Delta and, you know, Visa and Walmart and like brands that like, you know, kind of like huge scales. And so like it's been really like exciting to take all of that collective learning now into like the application of, you know, kind of both startup brands, growth phase brands, brands that are kind of like evolving.

9:09And also we're working with a huge brands here at Red Antler as well. We just were working with Google. We're working with like brands like PepsiCo, McKinsey. So it's like this really incredible range and that's what I love, man. I love like the kind of like, you know, ability to like context, like the ability to kind of switch between contacts, switch between brands, switch between disciplines and really like bring the full force of like my entire background and experience to bear on the types of work that I do here at Red Antler.

9:40Yeah, well, I think that's what initially like sparked our conversation when we were talking in person. We were I was like, oh, like, you know, I used to be a landscape architect and you were like, oh, my God, like I was doing experiential design for a while. I was like, like, usually you don't really talk about that with somebody unless you're kind of floating in like very similar circles. And I was like, well, it's crazy. I didn't really even know anybody knew about this. And I think what's really interesting to me is, yes, Red Antler's portfolio is huge, like and it is like the spectrum of stuff is so broad.

10:14And the way you talk about like being a generalist and all this like compounded experience and how you take that into being a creative leader there, I think is really interesting because I feel like people have this understanding of like there's only one path, right, to get to a role like this. Or maybe like a very limited cone of vision of like how to get there. But I think your story and your career path really proved that like it's like everything just kind of meanders and you just collect all this this data and this information and these experiences you go.

10:51And, you know, the topic of discussion today is like being a creative leader. And I think just you approved the point that like there is not one there's not that one way to like peel an orange or whatever. You know what I mean? Like, yeah, you you have to be able to be an individual in this industry. And like your experience takes you to a place where you can, you know, you can be in a room for all different kinds of conversations and, you know, foster growth within your team or, you know, figure out how to solve complex problems in a unique way.

Brands as Living Organisms

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11:55The new Red Bull Dragonberry Energizer is now at McDonald's. Made with freeze-dried dragon fruit and made to lock in. The all-new Energizer, now at McDonald's. Yeah, I mean, when we talked and met, I love like your background around landscape design and architecture. And I think that, you know, we all have like a special, I think there are two things that make us special as like creatives. I think one is like your experience, right?

12:26Like the things that you've been exposed to, right? In your background, the things that you're like really kind of curious about and excited about. But also like the things that you've done, right? Like if you've worked in landscape architecture, you can take those same principles and apply that to like brand building, right? And it gives you a unique perspective in brand building because not a lot of people have landscape architecture experience, right? And so like having that ability to think about the built environment and three-dimensional environments and like what's so cool and like, you know, I'm a geek about all of this stuff.

13:02But like what's so cool about landscape architecture is it's like it's about growing, thriving kind of like forms that evolve over time based on seasons, based on kind of like, you know, shifts in like. And so that's like so fascinating. But I think it's a perfect analogy actually for brands and the way they are now, right? Because brands now have to constantly evolve and shift based on culture, right? Like culture inputs, right? So it used to be that like, you know, big brands would design a logo and put it on a shelf and like the brand book would collect dust and it would be like the Holy Bible, you know?

13:35Brands were fixed, right? It was like you never changed it. Like you had to be so perfectly precise. Whereas now like brands are changing all the time. Like your consumer and your customer might just be like, I don't like this and I'm going to design my own logo and like I'm going to use your colors in this way and I'm going to put it on social media. And like oftentimes the way that people are interacting with brands now is actually through an influencer or someone that like is interpreting that brand for themselves and for the public and for consumers in their own way, right? And so I think brands like I have this philosophy that brands need to be living, thriving, organic things.

14:09And it's like, I think your point is perfect, which is that like your experience, you have to take those unique pieces of your experience and apply that to your philosophy around brand. And then I think the second thing that makes each individual and each creative person and their path unique and differentiated are your passions. I always love to talk about side quests with my designers because like they have such cool side quests. Like they're like, I'll talk to like a designer, like one of my creative directors, he used to be like a motorcycle racer, you know, and like he used to literally race like rally, like rally motorcycle, like racing where you go and like the dirt, you know, kind of jumps and stuff like that for Red Bull.

14:50Like he's an incredible dude, Austin and Austin's like that experience that he had racing motorcycles. He's brought that to like his approach to design and like, and he has this like craft that's like, you know, almost like, you know, I like to think of him as like thinking about like a guy in a mechanic shop. Like he understands like the inner workings of things and how they have to function, but then he has this like really great, like kind of personal client, um, interfacing where he's really like collaborative.

15:20Like he's, it's almost like he's like working to prepare for a race. Like he's like talking to them about like how we get there. And like, I think anyway, my point is like people take these unique passions and unique experiences to bear into like the work that they do. And I think that's what makes us all unique. And I think like for my team, for myself and for like designers that I meet, I always try to like encourage that and go like, listen, like that's what makes you special, right? Like don't try to join up and like join a team and become the fricking board, you know, like we're not all robots.

15:53Like you've got to be like whatever your human, like, you know, like special sauces, you've got to bring that to the table. And like, I honestly think like we all forget that. Like I forget that sometimes, like sometimes like I go like, oh shit, I've done all this cool stuff. And like, I'm not bringing that into this project. And like, I forget sometimes because I'm, I'm like an, you know, older designer. I sometimes forget like some of the like things that I've done. And I'm like, it's a missed opportunity when you don't bring those experiences to the table.

16:23And I think like, to your point, the path doesn't have to be linear. You can go off on lots of different paths. I always admired designers like that. Like when I think about like Virgil Abloh, who was like an architect and a DJ and a whatever. Or I think about Warhol, right? Like he made films, he made paintings. Like he was a guy that was like curious about the world. And he was trying to find like ways to sort of like interact with the world. One of my favorite like fashion designers, Dries Van Noten, he's like, he's, he's like obsessed with flowers and floral design, you know?

16:55And like, you see that in some of his like work and fabrics. But like, I think there's like these things that we have that are passions that we like bring into our work. And that makes the work richer and it makes it more differentiated. But yeah, I think it's, it's interesting that you bring that up because I, one of the like, like core questions I had for you today, just thinking about what we were going to discuss was like, okay. So you're in this role now is like a creative lead and you have your team and what, like, how do you foster this sense of like your team, like, like engaging them and, and getting them to pull these experiences out into the work or into the workplace.

17:34And kind of like, you know, I think there was a, there is, and was a very definitive way that a creative agency or, you know, a creative team functions and how you as a, as a leader kind of pushed the team. But I feel like you're not doing it that way. And it like, based on the talk, you know, that you did a couple of weeks ago, I was like, oh, like, you know, you, obviously you have those experiences that are maybe like not so great for fostering creativity. Like, how do you break those barriers down and like build them back up in a way that makes sense to like, really like, you know, get the best product?

Unlearning Top-Down Leadership

18:11Yeah. It's such a good question because I think like that process has shifted so much from like the early days of when I started, when I was a designer, it was like top 10. You know, when I was a young designer, it was basically like, you would go in to these, like, you know, critiques, like, you know, and you're like, you creative director would basically tell you like stuff was crap and like, you should do it this way. And like, they weren't interested in your perspective. You know, it was like, there was like the Bible format of like, here's the brand and you have to follow this brand.

18:44This is how the brand goes and whatever. And I think that like the process of creativity has certainly like shifted in terms of like, it's less top down, which I think is like so good. And it was something that I actually had to learn to shift in my career as like a creative leader. Like, because I was like so schooled in that methodology of like, hey, I'm going to come in and I'm going to tell you what to do and here's what to do and blah, blah, blah. And like, I just was like very like, that was the way I was trained, right? And so I had to like unlearn that. That was like the first step in like getting to where I am today is like I had to sort of unlearn that and go like, okay, that model's broken, right?

19:21Because it doesn't really allow for brands to be living, thriving things. And it's a cultural thing that is impacting culture at large, but it's also impacting like, as I said, like design and brands themselves. And so if your model as a creative leader is like top down and culture has shifted to bottom up, right? Like you're not going to be successful as a creative leader. So like if you're not self-aware enough to like understand that and know that, like, you know, you're a dinosaur and you're going to, you know, like you're not going to be around very long.

19:55And so like I think like I was able to like fortunately through learning and through exposure to some really great creative leaders, learn that along my journey and get to a place where like I really encourage like bottom up process. And I want to like, I want to understand like what people are thinking, what their thoughts are, how they view the work, what their perspectives are. But I also have enough experience to be able to input into the work and make decisive changes in the work and shifts in the work that will get us to a better place.

20:27And when I say us, I don't mean like my ego or creative. I mean like get the work to a better place for the consumer because ultimately like we're not artists, right? Like we're like delivering work for consumers and we're delivering experiences for people to be able to connect to and for people to be able to fall in love with. And if we don't like get it to a place where people can fall in love with it and it's about us or it's about some idea that we have, like it's got to be connected to that. And so my role in the process is really just to like help evolve the work to a place where I understand it'll connect better to consumer because I have enough experiences.

21:03I have enough experience to know like I think what it takes for consumers to connect to the work. But I'm also like always like looking for this like bottom up perspective and looking for my teams to be autonomous, to do the work, to like get to a good place. And like oftentimes I'll go into meetings with my team and hopefully they listen to this podcast and can attest to this. But like I'll often just say like that's great. Like it's awesome. And I have one thought, you know, in terms of like how this can evolve. But like I want my teams to be at a place where they're like able to just function.

21:35And like I want – and that's about hiring the right people who I think are great talent and like can do the work in the ways that like I think connect better to the consumer and have great insights around like culture and relevance and like great design and all that thinking. And, you know, maybe can like think about the work in the ways that I do, which is multidisciplinary and they're not just thinking about logos and symbols and typefaces and colors. But they're thinking about the experience as a whole and like cultural kind of impact. And so that's like a huge part of like my process internally.

22:07But then part of my process, like I have a thing, we call them antler outings. So when I joined Red Antler, the creative team was like super fractured. People were working in different places. There was no creative culture really at Red Antler when I started. And that wasn't like the fault of Red Antler or anyone in particular. It just was like it was kind of coming off of the pandemic and people were still like not coming back into work, coming back into work. There was just like there's this fracturing that happens, right? And I – one of the initiatives that I kicked off was called Antler Outings.

22:40Once a month, we created like a budget for the year. We took that budget and we can spend it in whatever way we want. And we basically like if you want to do a $10 outing one month, you can do that. If you want to do a couple hundred dollar outing the next month, you can do that. But essentially what we do is we do these outings once a month and they're like creative inspiration outings. And the team, I have a core team that helps drive this, Roman, Devery, Emilia, and Tatsuya. And they basically come up with ideas each month for what to do like on these outings.

23:12And we've gone surfing. One outing we did like Japanese like floral design. One outing we did like roller skating. One outing we went to like the Donald Judd house in Soho. And so we're always like finding these like really – we went to a talk the other day. You know, it's – we went to like a really cool talk the other day. So like we're always like trying to find – every month we have this like intentional like opportunity to go out there and connect to culture and connect to inspiration.

23:44But what's cool is that it's led by like different people's side quests. And so we have this opportunity to like tap into these different like points of inspiration. We also do like an inspiration session once a week where people like share their like – kind of like anything that's like top of mind. Like there's side quests kind of. And like one of our team is like Jackson. He's like obsessed with like dead presidents. And so he's like gone and like visited all of these like graves of dead presidents all over the U.S. And he like kind of catalogs it, takes pictures, and does all this stuff.

24:16And he like – I think he just like – you know, he was like – he's like a big history buff, right? And then one of our team, you know, she presented on this incredible – she grew up in like Brazil and lived in like – or sorry, Argentina. And lived in this like – her parents built this architectural like incredible home in the middle of like nowhere in Argentina. And she like presented her parents designing it and building it and like her life growing up in this like remote community with this like architectural jewel that now sits in Argentina.

24:48So like all these people like they either present like their background or, you know, like – or their experiences or things that inspire them. And so that's part of our like, you know, keeping the team in that space of kind of always thinking beyond the work and always like thinking outside of like what we traditionally do. And I think that's so important, man. It's like – I think that's the most important thing in terms of like creativity. It's like – because you can get like so tied up in like the deliverables and the work. And like as I said, like it's commerce, right?

25:19So at the end of the day, as a creative person, it can be somewhat draining. It can be like somewhat – it can feel sometimes like, you know, you're not expressing yourself as fully creatively. And so I want to create environments that foster that level of creativity and expression and inspiration. Yeah, I think that's so important. Having the ability to know like I – you know, you come from a place sometimes where like I worked – maybe worked in a couple of places that the work was really good but the environment was not the most conducive for like really good creative direction.

25:54And for you to be able to say like, hey, like you all have experiences that can bring us closer to something new or a perspective that we hadn't thought about that's eventually going to bubble up into a project. And also we're so lucky. We're in a place where it's so tangible to just grab new experiences or new visuals all the time. And it's like I think that that's really inspiring because not everybody is taking that approach.

26:25But I mean it fosters like team building, creativity, like cross-platform like functionality. Like I'm sure like especially in a place like Red Antler where, you know, you've got multiple teams working on different things. Like it's so important to be able to speak different languages. And I just kept thinking the whole time you were talking. I was like, oh, you know, you I think have become so much more of a facilitator in this role, right, as opposed to boots on the ground. I mean obviously I'm sure you're helping, you know, pull things in a direction that makes sense for different clients.

27:01But I think what you're describing is like way more of like a gentle nudge here or like just like a light suggestion there and just kind of like giving your team the freedom to to converse and make decisions. And I think it shows in the work because what you guys are doing is really diverse and it's like, you know, cross-functional and it's like a living, breathing thing like you were saying.

27:32And, yeah, I just like, you know, commend you on the ability to take all these life experiences and bring it forward and be able to like kind of let it show through in the work. We'll see you next time.

28:12The new Red Bull Dragonberry Energizer is now at McDonald's. Made with freeze-dried dragon fruit and made to lock in. The all-new Energizer, now at McDonald's. Yeah, thank you. And I think, you know, for me, it's also still important to do some of the work, like to be in the work. Sure. You know, like that's something I struggle with. I'm definitely more of a facilitator in my role now.

28:43And I think that every now and then I'll jump into the files and Figma and like design a couple of things and like try to spark ideas. I think sometimes like the process has to be a little bit more hands-on and collaborative. But it's usually like, hey, here's a spark of a thought, of a direction and how we can like pull this together or where we think it might be able to go or have you thought about this? And sometimes like you can't say it. You have to actually do it. You know, I think it's fascinating in our work. Right. Because like I think part of our work is about like like it's about visualizing things.

29:16And if you don't visualize something, it can be often hard for people to interpret it or understand it. Sure. But yeah, I'm more and more like in this facilitator role of like helping to like define vision for projects, helping to define opportunities for projects, helping to find opportunities in projects. And I think as a creative, that can be like also a challenging role to be in because you're like used to creating, you know? And so I think like everything that I said about my team, I'm cognizant to like figure out how to practice for myself.

29:52And so I'm like, what are my side quests, you know? And I think like over the holiday, over the like Christmas break, I was like, man, what are my side quests? Like what are the things that I'm doing that are just like purely creative, you know, that are like not for the purpose of anything else other than like creative. And one of the things I do like is just like I'm curious about technology. So like I experiment with a lot of AI tools and like platforms and I'm just like curious about how they work, you know, like the inner workings of those things.

30:22So that's one thing that like I love to do. And then I think like my side quests are like definitely like art, you know? Like I love art and like going to new shows and galleries. And like you said, like being in New York City, it's like really such a like incredible like, you know, thing in the sense that like I can just step outside of my door like on most days and like go somewhere and find inspiration. And for the types of inspiration that I love, like that is like the right, this is the right place for it.

30:53You know, like if I was inspired by nature and like, you know, and like in that field, my field, my creativity, like this would be the wrong place for it. But like I'm inspired by like the energy of the city. Like I love just like going outside and like sitting around and like checking out people in their fashion, like what they're doing creatively. And so I think like I'm really fueled by that. So like my side quest in a lot of ways is like my lifestyle, you know, like it's just like being here in New York and like talking to people like you, like so inspiring for me, you know, like that's like, that's my passion.

31:26Like in a way like that fuels me create creatively, because like if you and I had a met at AIGA like a couple of weeks ago, like we would never be having this conversation probably. Right. Like I know, probably not. That's such a beautiful thing that like you can't find in a lot of places and something that like I really want to lean into more because I think creativity isn't just about like painting or whatever. Creativity is about dialogue and it's about like stories and your story that you tell me helps me like, you know, understand my story better.

32:00And I think like ultimately like great creatives and great designers or people who work in this field are storytellers. Right. Like it's a cliche to say the word storytelling. Like I almost said that word because it's like so overused, you know, but like that's ultimately what it is. Right. Like we're kind of like we have to like be people who like are able to articulate like great kind of like perspectives and shift and form those perspectives through the bouncing of ideas and through like interaction and great like inputs from other people.

32:32Totally. Yeah. I think it's yeah, it's a little cheese ball, but that's what we do. We pull narratives out of other people's experiences and we make them into like, like have visual context. Yeah. And like what you're doing is it's like facilitating that, which I think is so beautiful. And I think that's why people love your podcast so much is because like there are really great stories hidden within some things that maybe feel like less obvious or less, you know, kind of like clear.

33:04And so it's an opportunity for people to find ways into creativity. Yeah. Well, and I appreciate that. And I think really like the whole goal of this was really just to uncover stories of other people because you I mean, we didn't know each other before we met. But, you know, it's just the more people you meet, the more things you learn, the new perspectives you get, and it just opens your brain up to all these like potentials and possibilities and new inspirations.

33:35So it really like you being able to share all this information, I think is like, it's going to impact somebody's life in a way that they didn't know it was going to the same way, you know, I've heard stories from other creatives or artists or writers that it just like it totally shifts your perspective. And that, you know, the one thing about the creative industry that I feel is has been lacking is just that there's not a lot of good context out there for younger designers to like latch on to if it's not like, you know, something directly related to learning new software or whatever.

34:09But, you know, when I was coming up through this, and I was kind of, you know, just figuring it out, you know, no, no university experience with this no professional network, it was like, having these stories was like my touch point into this world that I was learning about. So I think it's so important that people hear stuff like this, so that, you know, maybe somebody, you know, isn't sure that they want to go into like graphic or digital design or whatever, like fashion, like, it's just, it's nice for people to hear like, oh, like, it doesn't have to be so cut and dry.

34:43There's not just one way to do this. And it's so important to not put all your eggs in one basket, you have to be a well rounded, just like human, right? Just have experiences. And that's what dictates the creativity. Yeah. Yeah. And I think like, you know, there are two, there are two moments in my career that really like define my creative, creative, creativity.

Placemaking at the Seaport

35:04And I think for people listening who are like, finding a path and doing things. The first was, I was inexperiential for a period of time. And I, I got hired by Howard Hughes, who are a real estate developer. This is like what we were talking about the other day. They were redeveloping the Seaport district in lower Manhattan, and they wanted someone to help like define the brand and positioning for that neighborhood. And I got hired by these incredible guys who had worked in what's called placemaking, which is like defining place through brand and through advertising and through experience.

35:38And these guys, Anthony Nelson and Steve Cornwell, they had been working in this industry for like 40 years doing stuff like resorts and, you know, hotels and really cool, like what they call master plan developments, which are basically like residential, you know, entertainment, retail, like huge like developments. Right. And the Seaport is a neighborhood in Manhattan, like neighborhood. It's the oldest neighborhood. It's been around for like 200 years or 300. I don't know what it is, but it's the oldest neighborhood in New York.

36:10It's where the ships used to come, you know, to land in New York City, like for centuries. Right. Before airplanes and roads and things like that. Everything went through the port of New York and that neighborhood is such a beautiful neighborhood. And it had this pier on the water that got, you know, turned into an entertainment venue on the rooftop that we helped position and define called Pier 17. We partnered with John George to create restaurants. And it was such a cool like pivot for me from like working on like six month kind of cycles of consumer brands into like a project that was really like a five year billion dollar project.

36:48You know, like it was like thinking about scale completely differently and thinking about brand completely differently going from like, OK, how do I build a brand in like a short cycle or a consumer product in a short cycle to like how do I think about a brand like on a 30 year trajectory or what's this neighborhood going to be in five years or two years and like planting the seed now and like building like layers of strategy into that like future state. And that was such a cool pivot for me because it really forced me to think about brand, not just like as right now, but like brand is like two years from now because real estate development takes years to build.

37:25Right. Like it's like, you know, this from landscape architecture is like you have an idea. And then by the time it goes to market, it's like a two years away or three years away or sometimes like more. Right. And that requires like such great like strategic thinking and such smart like future proofing around like a brand. And what it can become. And you really have to be connected to culture and shifts in culture, because if you build something that's trendy now in two years when it gets done, it's not going to be trendy anymore.

37:56Right. So you have to almost be like, where is where trends going, where culture is going. And so placemaking was such a fascinating shift for me as a graphic designer to go into a mode of like future thinking around community and culture and neighborhood and math, these master plan developments that were so complex. They were like, how do you connect retail to entertainment to, you know, hospitality and how do you build all these pieces together? Like it was such a cool shift in my career, like in terms of the way that I thought about brand. And I think like that was such a cool thing also because I had to explain creativity to real estate developers who are like they're creative people, but they're not used to like the traditional modes of marketing and creative brand building.

38:42Right. Most when you work. The language is totally different. Yeah. When you work at an agency, right. If you're working on like, I don't know, Cheetos, like the marketing person understands everything about like the market and how it works and brand building. And they're like experts. They've worked in like consumer goods probably for 20, 30 years as a CMO or whatever. Right. Sure. But like when you're working in real estate, they're guys who are just thinking about like numbers and like how this thing stacks up. And so you have to be able to translate a creative vision into like business objectives.

39:14And so that was in long-term business objectives and like huge weighty business objectives. Right. Cause they're like million dollar projects. It's like a lot writing on this project. It's not just like, Hey, we're going to kick off a $10 million project and see how it goes. It's like, you know, there's like people's like entire careers and like, you know, like, you know, people's like huge investments are at stake. And so it was a cool, like such a cool journey to like really learn how to tell the story of creativity and the power of marketing to people who aren't so familiar with it and how to translate that to them on a long-term sort of cycle and vision.

39:50And so that was one of the most transformative experiences for me. And like, my point is that like, I think enforcing yourself outside of your kind of norm or comfort zone has been my path to success. I'm not saying it's the right path for everyone, but like, it was one of the things that really helped me really kind of become more successful in my creative output and outlook. And in the ways that I thought about brands and it was invaluable.

Innovation Labs and AI

40:16The second thing that like was a huge shift for me was when I went to work at Digitas and Publicis and part of my role, I sort of pitched them on this role within the agency, which was like, how do you think about innovation? I was at the time, like really fascinated by technology and innovation. And I pitched them on this role of like helping to stand up an innovation team called the Unicorn Labs. And I was able to take all my multidisciplinary thinking into technology. And I partnered with this great creative technologist, Adam, who had been working with creative technology for like 20, 30, 40 years, you know, like just a genius at like technology.

40:56Sure. What that did was like, it also made me, it forced me to think about like, I'd been thinking in the physical space, right? Consumer goods, experiences, you know, definitely digital and virtual, but like not in the sense of like, how do you take new technology and form new experiences? So we started working on AI kind of apps and products for brands. We worked on this thing called the Trend Getter for Walmart, where it allowed you to like use AI image recognition to take a picture of something. And it would, in the real world, there was like something you'd liked, and it would pull up something like relevant in their catalog for you as a shopper.

41:31And it was using AI like four years ago, before everyone was like AI, AI, AI. But like, I think technology and like, I think innovation is sort of tech agnostic in that, like, it's not about the technology that you use. It's about how you get to better experiences for people and how you leverage tools in the most interesting way. And that's what innovation is to me, is like, how do you leverage like tools? Like innovation can be lo-fi to me, it can be hi-fi, but I think it's about ultimately like, how do you create better experiences for people? And I think that's what we all are craving.

42:03And so that shift into this mindset of innovation thinking was such a huge shift for me also, my career as a designer. So those are like two things that like really, I think were pivotal in my career. And by the way, those two things happened like over the past 10 years of my career. So like I've been, you know, creative for 23 years in this city and in this industry. And it took me like 10, 13 years to really start to like get to a place where I had the baseline, right? Like I had the like foundation.

42:34And so I think my point is like, don't be impatient with yourself. Sometimes it can take, some people it takes who are smarter than me, it probably takes a couple of years for them to figure out the baseline and pivot into new things and do interesting things, right? Some people it takes them 20 years, it takes them 30 years to get to a point, but like always be curious is my mode. And like always be trying to find, always try to find new opportunities and new ways to express your creative vision and your perspective. But always be open, right, to like new inputs that can like form a new perspective and a new path for you.

43:08And I think that being open like really helps you get to a place where like you'll find that path, right? But I do think like you do have to be open, you have to be curious, and you have to be patient. Like you've got to build the foundation. Like I wouldn't have been able to do all the things that I did at Digitas and in like, you know, at Seaport and defining a neighborhood if I didn't have a solid foundation and if I didn't have like great kind of like a great baseline to build on. When you need to build up your team to handle the growing chaos at work, use Indeed Sponsored Jobs.

43:39It gives your job post the boost it needs to be seen and helps reach people with the right skills, certifications, and more. Spend less time searching and more time actually interviewing candidates who check all your boxes. Listeners of this show will get a $75 sponsored job credit at Indeed.com slash podcast. That's Indeed.com slash podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Need a hiring hero? This is a job for Indeed Sponsored Jobs. The new Red Bull Dragonberry Energizer is now at McDonald's. Made with freeze-dried dragon fruit.

44:12And made to lock in. The all-new Energizer. Now at McDonald's. Yeah. It's so funny. I feel like I've been talking about this to everybody for like the last week, but I read this really cool substack the other day. That kind of like mimics that idea of like you like have to almost create the job that you want just through like stumbling through experiences that don't always feel like they're aligned, but sometimes an opportunity pops up or somebody you meet is there to be able to foster like an intrigue or an interest.

44:50That's maybe not 100% aligned with what the direction you thought you were going. And it's just you. Yeah, you have to almost. I just feel like sometimes like you just have to be like like a jellyfish, right? Like you just kind of like you go with the current wherever it takes you. And yeah, I think it's just being open to those experiences to like like you said, like if you had got if you go back and you tell like a younger version of yourself like, oh, you're going to do this. You're going to do this. You may say like this crazy. No way.

45:20But it's just, you know, you can't connect the dots unless you look backwards. Right. Like you can't do it going forwards.

45:28Yeah.

Creating Your Own Job

45:29I love what you said about like creating the job that you want. I think that's so important for creatives to hear like who are coming up in their like careers because when I was younger, I couldn't imagine. I couldn't even like wrap my head around the idea of creating the job that I wanted, you know, like I just thought like this is the path that I have to take. And I was so like clueless and I think not clueless, but like unsophisticated in the ways of like the world being like malleable and like kind of like what you want it to be.

46:01Right. And I don't think we should be naive. Like you do have to have like a great foundation, you have a great skill sets to offer people in order to create opportunities for yourself. You know, like you've got to work extremely hard to create luck. Yeah. But I do think that like it is like fascinating when you get to a point in your career where you go, all right, like I want to go here and this is where this is my objective and my goal. And this is something I'm passionate about. And you can kind of see yourself like create a path there and create the, you know, that job that you want or that experience that you want.

46:36And I think that like it doesn't have to be linear and it doesn't have to be a job description that exists. You know, I think like that was the big thing of publicist was like I was working in this mode of, you know, like 30, 30, 30 split basically where I was like 30% of my role was like building this, helping to build the stand up as innovation team. 30% of my role was running a hundred person design team across Digitas. 30% of my role was like on strategic brands and like new business opportunities through the power of one model at publicist, which was like this crazy model where they would like go after huge pitches like LVMH and global wins.

47:14You know, they were like millions of dollars. And so I was able to like craft my own job description based on my hard work and like my just like ability to like be curious and show up in ways that like were able to like add value to every team that I was on. So it wasn't just like me saying like, oh, this is what I want to do. It was me putting in the freaking work and being like every day I'm going to try to work to do what's in the best interest of the people around me and to prove to them that like I will be a great partner to you and getting us to your objectives, but also getting me to my objectives.

47:51And I think that it's a trade-off and, you know, like when you work with people and I think like it's about collaboration. It's not about like, you know, it's about like this, the selfishness of your passions and putting them first. I think that's really important, but I think ultimately it's also important to like be collaborative with people and know that you have to give something as well in that process. And in that journey, like it can't just be like, this is, that's my perspective, right? Like I think if you're alone and you're like, this is just what I want to do in life and you're not including other people, like so much of it is about like getting people to advocate for you in your career, getting people to like believe in you as like a partner to them.

48:35And that's a super important thing. I think we all have to learn like, and I'm, I think we're all getting, we all have to like get better, better at that. But I think the really successful leaders, whether it be in business or creativity, they're really good at like recruiting people into their vision. And I think that's not just about like saying words, it's about literally like doing the work, you know, you gotta be like, you gotta be in there. Like you gotta be shooting in the gym with, you know, with, with everyone else, you know, it's like, you gotta be like out there, like doing the work and like putting in the like hours.

49:08And, you know, your team's only going to believe in you if you're like, you know, you know, up at like 10 at night working through the deck with them or like helping them. And, and so like, I said this on the panel, but I think one of the most important things for me is like generosity of like both my time and like, you know, my like kind of curiosity and like always being like available. Like one of the best creative leaders I've had at Digitas, I'll mention his name, Atisha, he was so generous with his time.

49:40Like he would find like five minutes, you know, here, 15 minutes there to like jump into work and like help like guide the work and provide like value, like into the work. But it wasn't like ego. It was just like, I want to help people get to a better place. And like, I think that's super, super important. Like as you focus on your vision and where you want to go. Sure. Yeah, I think this like kind of segues into a question that I was like thinking about, which is like, so you have, you take all this perspective forward, you, you know, the dominoes fall the way that you kind of make them fall.

50:13But now that you have all this experience and you can kind of connect the dots backwards, like as a creative leader, what do you look for when you're growing your team? Like, and you need that support or there's a gap, somebody maybe leaves, or there's a specific opening, like a, an opportunity arises for, to bring somebody new on. What do you look for like in that, to fill those, those holes in your team?

Surprise as a Metric

50:40I'm like, I'm always looking to be surprised. And like some creative leaders, like hire people like them. And they're just kind of like, I want to hire people who do the type of work that I do, like essentially or conceptually or whatever. I'm always looking for people who like have a little bit of that, like for sure. Like you're looking for yourself and people that you hire, like in a way. And so some of the things that I talk about, like I'm always looking for in team, you know, like I'm like, can you think multi, like, can you be multidisciplinary in the way that you think about creativity?

51:13Are you just like a specialist or are you just like, you know, thinking about things one way? And by the way, sometimes that's great, right? Like sometimes you need specialists and so like I'm not always trying to find my, like, you know, find it like a version of myself. I'm like usually trying to find like people who complement our skill sets as a team. And I'm looking to be surprised. I'm like, oh, wow, like they did that. Like that was really interesting. Or they have this perspective. They shot like a campaign in this really interesting way.

51:44Or like, you know, they not only do they do this, but they also do that, right? Like not only do they do like great design, but they also like do great social platform work. Not only do they do great design, but they do like great innovation work and they're experimenting with AI. Not only do they do great design, but they're like a great painter. Like it doesn't have to be tech driven or even doesn't even have to be like in the space of the work that we do. But I'm always looking to be surprised. And when I find that thing that I'm like really surprised by, I think that's like the spark for me of like great creative talent.

52:21And I'm always looking for that in the creative talent that I work with of people just coming to the table and saying like, you know, I do this, but I also do that. And this is my perspective. And I'm always looking for like a strong vision or perspective on the work, you know, like I, again, like I want it to be top down, bottom up, like sideways. I want it to be like a much of like inspiration and concepts and ideas and perspectives. And so I want them to contribute, you know, like I don't want them to just be like makers and people who do the work.

52:54I want them to be like active participants in the culture that we're trying to build a red antler. And so I'm looking for people who are excited to do that and who have a perspective and who have like, you know, and that doesn't mean you need to be like a super extroverted person or like out there. I just want to like see it in the work and I want to see it in your perspective of the work. Right. And yeah, I'm always looking just, just, just for that, you know, mostly. Um, and I think like, you know, talent's hard to define, like in terms of like it's quantifiable things, but that's really like it.

53:30And, and then I'm looking for like a great foundation. Like, are you really, are you doing that? But are you also like kind of what I just said earlier? Are you also like, have you built a great foundation? Are you taking the like baseline stuff seriously? You know, like you can't be a great designer until you've like mastered the like foundation, you know, like. Sure. So like, I think that's really important is like, I want to see people who are like, are like passionate about mastering, not just the foundation, but also the expression of like, um, of plus, plus ups to that.

54:03Yeah. I think that's really a good point. And I think it's, it's something you don't learn until you go through it. You know what I mean? It's hard. Like, I feel like I, sometimes I'm like, I don't feel like I'm in a position to give advice, but I feel like as you meet like young designers sometimes and they're like, oh, like, you know, what are people looking for? And I think something I, I learned at one point early on was just like working, like being a hard worker is not enough. Like you can, like being a hard worker is great, but there's also like, you have to be authentic to who you are and who you always were.

54:39And I think when you are able to bridge that gap of like, you build a good foundation and then you stop trying to prove to people that you can be like, work the hardest, but like more like work the smartest, show up for the team and bring like an authentic version of yourself and your experience to that. And that's when people, you kind of, I don't like, there's this like, almost like charisma that like flows off these people that they're just like, they, they just, it clicks.

55:11And it's like, like, you know, it's not about first one in last one, although, you know, that helps a lot of times, but it's more about just like being, you know, being, unlocking the, the creative that was always there, not trying to like bury it under other presumptions that, you know, sometimes the creative industry makes us think we need to be. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. A hundred percent. A hundred percent.

Programming AIGA New York

55:36Yeah. So I think, you know, we'll get into like our wrap up, but the one last question I had for you before we go is like, so now you're, you're working, volunteering time on the AIJ New York board. And like, how are you kind of pulling all of these life experiences now into this, this volunteer role that you're in? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, AIGA is such a cool honor. I got brought into the AIGA through my buddy Capono, who's a chief creative officer and partner at Combo, which is like a small agency in New York, an independent agency in New York.

56:15They do amazing design work and Capono, man, you shout out to Capono. He's such like a, he's such a generous guy. Like, you know, he's just like a guy that like, he was like, Hey, I think you should join the AIGA because like AIGA is trying to evolve and like shift like any organization. And I think they could use like new perspectives and different, you know, perspectives on the team. And I was fortunate to be, you know, added, um, to be like, uh, kind of nominated to the board. And, you know, like I haven't been as involved in like things like boards and whatnot in, in, um, design.

56:51And I haven't been like, so much of my career has just been like working. And now I'm like, Oh God, like, I want to be like, I want to have more conversations like this one. Right. And like, I want to be able to like talk to people and like learn more from people as I kind of go through this journey. I don't want to just be like in a silo. And that's the great thing about New York, as I said, and like, if I miss out on that, I'm kind of like missing out on living in New York, you know, I might as well be somewhere else. And so I'm like, I'm always like driven by that stuff. And, you know, I'm on the programming board, uh, committee at AIGA.

57:25So helping to define like new programming initiatives, new like perspectives, so much of the AIGA is about supporting young designers and design talent. And I think like part of that is about like giving people points of inspiration, right? Like bringing in great, like, you know, kind of speakers and guests and like people to talk about innovation or art or, you know, or design. And Stacy, who runs, you know, the AIGA New York, um, uh, organization here is like so good at like understanding what young designers design community are looking for, but also like really connecting that to like great people, great talent.

58:07And she's so like humble and, and gracious with her time and helpful. And we're all people like, you know, donating our time. So for me, like, I'm always like, how can I be doing more? I wish I could do more. I wish I'm feel like I'm not doing enough. Um, but I think it's important, you know? And so what I'm trying to do with the AIGA and in my partnership with, you know, my board members and all the other people, uh, like in the organization is really like, you know, um, you know, help like drive through their vision and their ethos, which is about championing the future of design for all.

58:43And I think like, I was just really inspired by that. Like, I think that design is not always like inclusive of everyone designing like a pretty like Eurocentric, like, uh, um, kind of like, um, industry or like in terms of its like history. Right. And I think it's becoming like much more like New York city embodies like a more holistic perspective of design. And so like, I'm really fascinated about like this idea of how do you champion the future of design? I'm always curious about the future, you know?

59:14Um, and I, I'm like, I'm really, really like curious about like how we make that relevant for, uh, for people and, um, and for like younger designers and, you know, older designers as well. Like on the panel the other day, I met like someone who was like older than me as a designer and he was kind of like, I'm like thinking about a career shift. I've worked all my life as an editor and I'm working at Disney now and I'm thinking about doing something else. And like, what are your thoughts? And like, these are, these are like the great conversations that we all should be having.

59:45And, you know, I want to be able to contribute to that in whatever way I can. And so that's what that's about for me. When you need to build up your team to handle the growing chaos at work, use Indeed Sponsored Jobs. It gives your job post the boost it needs to be seen and helps reach people with the right skills, certifications, and more. Spend less time searching and more time actually interviewing candidates who check all your boxes. Listeners of this show will get a $75 sponsored job credit at indeed.com slash podcast. That's indeed.com slash podcast.

1:00:16Terms and conditions apply. Need a hiring hero? This is a job for Indeed Sponsored Jobs. The new Red Bull Dragonberry Energizer is now at McDonald's. Made with freeze-dried dragon fruit. And made to lock in. The all-new Energizer. Now at McDonald's. Oh, good. I love that. That's such a great, uh, a great perspective. And it is, like, it's a very pay-it-forward kind of thing. Yeah. Um, all right. Before we go, last thing.

Reading and Recommendations

1:00:47Just, like, I always ask, like, inspiration-wise, like, what are you listening to, reading? Yeah. Like, what's kind of, like, getting you going right now as far as, like, you know, creative mojo? Yeah. Oh, that's such a good question, man. I, um, I am, uh, like, I'm in the mode of, like, I'm reading a little bit of, like, fiction currently. Like, I'll read, like, random kind of, like, I don't read a ton. Um, but I'm, like, I've been, like, in the mode of, like, when I was, when I was, um, I was on vacation, like, this, you know, holiday, um, and I read this book called Martyr by Kaveh Akbar, which was just, like, a really cool, like, fictional novel, um, that was, like, really kind of, like, it touched on, like, a lot of, like, cultural relevance and things that are happening in the world.

1:01:40And, um, I thought that was, like, super cool. That's one book that I'm reading that I would highly recommend. Um, I, in terms of, like, what am I, like, watching? What am I, like, listening to? I've been, like, I go through modes, man. Like, in terms of listening stuff, I'm always, like, kind of trying to find new music. I think my, my music, like, kind of, like, current playlist, like, honestly, like, sucks a little bit. Like, it's, like, a lot of, like, old. So, like, I've been into, like, recently country music randomly because, like, I just, like, every now and then need, like, a switch up.

1:02:13And I don't need, like, country music now, but, like, I've been listening to, like, I don't know why, like, Kenny Rogers, The Gambler. That song has been, like, on my playlist. I'll tell, I'll spit out a couple of songs that have been on my playlist. Like, there's a song, Tennessee Whiskey. And my, um, my wife loves, um, she loves, like, kind of, like, Dolly Parton. And so, like, I don't know, it reminds me a little bit of her sometimes when I listen to, like, random old country music. But I love to, like, kind of, like, I get, like, as you can probably tell, like, I get, like, very curious about new things.

1:02:47And I get, like, kind of, like, a board of, of certain things. And so, like, I'm always, like, my playlist is always, like, rotating. And I'm always, like, I'm a bit, like, you know, all over the place in terms of my inspiration. But, like, those are a couple of things that are, like, top of, top of my, my playlist and my reading list recently. Nice. Um, all right. Also, like, so we'll wrap it up. But, like, where can people find you? Yeah. And, like, what, yeah, like, where, just plug your socials, like, anything you're working on. Yeah, yeah. So, redantler.com is our website for the agency, which, like, I'd love for people to check out some of the work.

1:03:21I think there's some, like, really cool work on there. Um, if you're, like, curious about some of the work that we do, I'm on LinkedIn. Just Google, you know, or look up Kaiser Barnes, K-I-S-E-R, no A. Uh, my name's often, like, misspelled because, like, I think the proper spelling is, or not the proper, like, one of the spellings is with an A. Yeah. But P-I-S-E-R Barnes, you can look me up. I'm on, you know, Instagram as well if you want to, like, tag along. I'm always, like, kind of, like, posting random things on there. But, yeah, I think, like, I'm always, like, keen to have conversations.

1:03:55So, if people are, like, listening to this and you have thoughts or questions, like, shoot me a note. Like, you can always hit me up on LinkedIn or on Instagram. Like, I'd love having, like, random, you know, like, thoughts and conversations. And, um, yeah, always, always around to chat. Love that. Um, yeah, and for anybody following along, um, any follow-up questions, you can always hit us up. Um, our tag is at DGDCpod on pretty much everything. And then if you want to follow me directly or send me a message, it's at TLaureau underscore design on Instagram.

1:04:29And, uh, Kaiser, thank you so much. This has been such a pleasure. Thank you so much. It's so cool to get out with your name. Thank you. So happy to, uh, to, like, bring you along and to, like, and to extend the conversation. It's awesome. I love it. Thank you. Really appreciate it. And can't wait to, um, to chat more again soon. Yeah, absolutely. All right. Talk soon. All right.

1:04:51If this conversation helped you think a little longer term about your creative career, hit like and subscribe. It helps more than you think. And if you know a creative who's trying to figure out their next move, share this with them. That's how we get this community to grow. NFL football season is here, which means when you switch to Verizon, it feels like... Touchdown! Because you get NFL Sunday ticket from YouTube on us when you buy an eligible 5G phone on select unlimited plans, which means you can watch every out-of-market game every Sunday afternoon.

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