164: Oak Cliff Swipers

Introduction

0:00man, have I got a story for you. Where did this one even come from? Oh, yeah. It was uh it was Twitter. I got a Twitter DM and this guy's like, "Hi, I'm Nathan." And I'm like, "Okay." And he was like, "Yeah, I've done some stuff and you might want to interview me. I should note right here that this episode has a lot of swear words and I would say is for mature audiences. So, if you have some sensitive ears around you, I recommend listening to this one with headphones or whatever you need to do. That's your warning. That's your graphic

0:31warning for this one. So, typically when

Initial Contact

0:33someone DMs me and says, "Hey, you know, you should interview me for your show." My first response without even knowing anything about them is, "Can I see your police report?" Because a lot of people who message me, they like want to be on the show for hacking something, but maybe they've never been caught. And so, I hate to glorify their actions, right? But even more so, it's probably true that their story isn't over yet. and it's just the beginning and I should probably check in with them like in a few years to see how things are going. But I also have CEOs

1:05message me and say, "Hey, I'd like to come on the show and tell you about my product and how great everything is and how great we can defend things and stuff." And so when I just immediately start by asking for a police report, that cuts right through a lot of the small talk and gets right to the heart of what I'm looking for. I want to know about the worst day of your life. the the thing that happened that was just catastrophic to you and you probably don't even want to talk about that. But with this guy Nathan, I asked him for a

1:35police report. He just started sending me link after link and news reports and files and videos and photos and yeah, indictments and affidavit and all that stuff. And it was piling up. This story just kept growing. I couldn't even keep up. And I was like, "Okay, okay, okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Let's definitely talk. Whatever this one is, it looks like it goes deep." So, I'm like, "Hey, we should probably switch to Signal," which is a more private messaging app. And he gives me his Signal number. And I message him there, and we start talking. But then I find out I'm actually talking to his brother, a different guy. I'm

2:06like, "What? What the Hey, man. I thought I thought I was talking to you on signal, but it ended up being your brother." And he's like, "Yeah, I gave you both me and my brother my brother's signal so you could talk to both of us." And I'm like, "Okay, which one is yours?" So, he tells me which one is

Nathan's Background

2:20his. And I'm like, "Okay, let's do a call." And he's like, "Great. Give me a date and time and I'll be there." And I'm like, "All right, well, how about this weekend?" He's like, "Hell yeah. Uh, Saturday, I'm free all day." I'm like, "Great. Let's do it." So, Saturday comes, I wake up and I check the signal and I got a message from him in all caps and it's like, "I have to work until midnight, but it's not that hard. So, I can multitask and I can talk to you at the same time." I'm like, "No, no, no, no, no. Uh, don't call me while you're at work. finish your job and then we'll

2:50talk. How about tomorrow, Sunday, 10:00 a.m.? He's like, "Yeah, that sounds great. I got nothing going on all day Sunday." So, when Sunday 10:00 a.m. comes around, he messages me saying, "Man, my baby mama is tripping, so I have to drive my daughter somewhere. I'm going to be 2 hours late for the call." I'm like, "Oh, okay. Uh, no problem. It's Sunday. See you in two hours." So, two hours go by and I'm like, "All right, you ready?" and he's like, "Uh, my phone is about to die and I'm not near a computer, so uh, let me charge it on a power bank for 30 minutes." I'm

3:21like, "Okay, fine." And I think at this time he like went to his mom's house or something and she's like seven years old and I think she he was going to take her to the store or something, but then he text me a photo of her and she's all dressed up, ready to go out, jewelry on, purse in hand, but she's passed out on a couch and he tells me she drank too much and passed out. Then he even tells me like it's not even her house. Uh, someone's asking me to take my mom somewhere else so now I've got to drive my passed out mom somewhere. And then he starts filling my

3:51text with wild chats. He like I don't even know some of the shit he was saying to me on Signal. It's like uh he was going to show me a video of him cussing out some cops. And then he told me his brother is on the run due to some impending felonies. And I'm like, "Is that the same brother I talked to?" He's like, "Yeah, man." And he tells me his uncle killed himself and how he chose his kids instead of his uncle's life. And I I can't even follow what he's saying. But then he goes swimming and he sends me a photo of him swimming in a pool with his daughter. And uh needless

4:23to say, we did not get a chance to do a call that weekend even though I was sitting on the line for like six hours waiting for him to show up. So we tried to reschedule, but man, we had a lot of conflicts. All I'm trying to say is that this guy Nathan is one wiggly guy and it's hard to get on the phone, but eventually we got on the phone together. You made it. >> Yeah. >> So, what are you doing right now? >> Uh, I'm sitting right here uh with a

4:53bong in front of me in front of the five computer screens. >> What about why five? >> I mean, because my brain's going so fast. >> Oh, yeah. You only have two eyes, though. No, but they're going everywhere. >> What's What's you see them all at the same time kind of. You know what I mean? >> Why what's going on in your brain? Why is it going so fast? Explain to me your process your your brain here. >> It's like fireworks constantly exploding in my brain. >> Yeah. So, give me an example. Are you

5:25like, "Oh, I got to check an email. I got to check Twitter. I like what's going on." >> Yeah. Like thousand a thousand. >> No, babe. I'm not talking to you. It's my daughter. >> Mhm. >> No, honey. Do an interview. >> She said, "Oh, okay." And that >> Yeah. >> Yeah. So, uh, so I I prepare for the worst and then hope for the best. Does that make sense? Yeah. >> That way you're never surprised. >> Yeah. And you've gone through some pretty bad stuff. So, >> Well, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

5:56>> You've got different levels of trauma, >> right? There are levels to it. For sure. For sure. Yeah, like they need they need to scale for that. Maybe all this new uh AI and supercomputer shit, they'll come up with some good shit. We're going to be cyborgs by like by like 2030, we're going to be uh getting two years younger every year. >> Yeah. Yeah. I hope so. I I don't want to get older. >> They want to live forever. You know what I mean? >> Yeah. I I I want that. I >> I don't know if I want to live forever.

6:28>> All right. Let's start with what's your first name? Nathan. >> Okay. I I got in my notes that Nathan is the ring leader of this whole enterprise. >> Well, you know, uh I mean, if they would have really got the people that should they should have got or whoever, then it was probably uh my mother-in-law that would have been the ring leader cuz uh Jeez, it gets worse already. We haven't even started. It already gets worse.

7:00These are true stories from the dark side of the internet. I'm Jack Reider. This is Darknet Diaries. [Music]

Nathan's Upbringing

7:26Nathan grew up in Oak Cliff, an area near Dallas, Texas. >> They So they they put me on Riddlin when I was 6 years old, bro. >> Ridling. Wow. >> First day of kindergarten. >> I tried to stab kid at school >> cuz your head was fireworks. Wait, did you say you tried to stab a kid at school? >> First day of kindergarten. >> Oh man, you were that kind of kid? >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. MHMR for real. Yeah. And then of course the drugs didn't help. When you're self-medicating,

7:57you're thinking it's helping and it ain't helping. [Music] By the time he was 14, him and his brother were really into video games. Diablo II and World of Warcraft were his favorites. And at the time, there was an underground market where you could buy and sell in-game items for real money. So they'd play these games and try to sell things within the game. Well, I was like 14 and I I was selling Diablo I items. I kept getting scammed on PayPal with chargebacks. So, I just joined that that side because they seemed to be making more money cuz I was losing more.

8:28And there's his origin story. He got scammed and the scammer didn't get in any trouble at all. He got away clean with Nathan's money. He was like, "All right, all right. I see how this world is. Either you're getting scammed or you're the scammer. Might as well be the scammer." Like I I I knew right from wrong from from when I was a kid, I chose this I chose this path. My parents didn't raise me like this. My parents raised me to do right. But when I got tired of getting scammed, I just chose the path to the dark side.

9:01But his origin story isn't as simple as that. If you know Oak Cliff, you may also know that that's a rough area of town to grow up in. >> So I was raised middle class, but I lived in the hood. Like my parents made probably about $100,000 a year. Okay? you know, we had the nicest house in the neighborhood and shit like that. But I but I I was raised in the streets. So >> yeah. So tell me what was shitty about your neighborhood. >> Uh you know, uh police chasing people around the neighborhood, shooting up people at 3:00 in the morning. You're looking out your window and there's

9:32three helicopters in the sky looking for somebody and the spotlight silent on your house. Shit like that. Gunshots. Uh you know, seeing people get shot. Uh >> yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah, I mean, you know, I learn I pick up all my bad habits at school. >> I mean, that's where everybody learns all the bad shit, right? Is at school >> and then I got on the internet and then I started picking up all the bad shit. Once I started getting into wares and programming and AOL back in '94, 95, 96, 97, 98. >> Well, I think there's some sort of reflection here of like it's like, hey,

10:03look, if I'm going to be nice, people are still going to rob me and beat me up and all this sort of thing. So, I got to toughen up. I gotta be a jerk to the world because the world's a jerk to me. >> That's why I turned into a monster. >> I be like, seriously, like I just I just did 13 years in prison and and I didn't even know I could fight that good. I mean, I look I got into a lot of fights growing up where I grew up at, but I didn't know I was a beast. People learn a lot about themselves in prison, don't they? >> Yeah, you do. I mean, I'm still learning things about I I just I just realized

10:34what a couple of triggers I had that were pissing me off and how easy they were to change. So, I didn't get mad no more. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> It's like self-discovery. Like, I'm just now getting self-discovery cuz I cuz I've been clouded by drugs my whole life. >> So, who were you living with at 14? >> I was living with my mom and dad in Oakliff, Dallas. >> Your brother living together as well? >> Yes. Yeah. Me and my little brother. >> All right. Um I just dropped out of school. dropped out.

11:05>> Let me guess, let me guess. Um, you were I want to I want to say dirt bag, but it but you probably don't don't call yourself a dirt bag. I'm trying to guess what kind of person you are, but I imagine just you got into drugs and just screwed around and like, forget this. I'm done with this. And you didn't shower and you just played video games. I don't know. >> I was I was out pimping hoes. >> What? >> Yeah. When I s I go chasing pussy. Yeah,

11:35>> it's crazy. Like like so I dropped out and my mom bought me a computer from the IT guy at work. It was a 486 pineium and I I want to say it was a uh 144 baud modem and uh I I've been stuck on a computer ever since. And this whole time, Nathan and his little brother were watching how people were making money in their area and living in the hood. You could probably guess what kind of stuff that they were seeing. A lot of hustlers. And they were

12:07set on trying to find ways to make money themselves, but they were also super into computers. So that's where they focused on trying to make money. Okay. So like my whole life, me and my little brother, we always made money on the internet uh through like video games, through uh selling currency and stuff like that for games and stuff and whatnot. How do how do you do that? >> For like selling in in-game currencies for different video games. Like we used to have a couple of Diablo II dukes and we sold Diablo II items. Then we sold WoW gold. Now we had a virus, a brute kid virus that stole all accounts for

12:38every uh gaming uh platform that they had. >> How were you getting the gold to sell? >> Oh, we were buying it from them with stolen PayPals and shit. >> Oo. So we got to step back a second now. >> Oh, that's a whole different story. So you you got >> since 94, you know, I was doing it back in the BBS days. >> Holy cow. >> So he'd buy access to someone else's PayPal account, buy some in-game gold

13:10with that, and then he'd have the gold in his video game account, and then he'd sell that gold to some other player for real cash, which he could put in his pocket. In this way, he was using World of Warcraft gold as sort of a moneyaundering mechanism. And this led him to chat rooms where people were selling or trading credit card dumps. This is where they get their hands on some full credit card details so that they could buy whatever they want with it. And they just weren't hidden, bro. Like, you know, it'd be like hit or

13:40miss, like, you know, because they have all them uh algorithms and shit running. So, it would be hit or miss. And then but then when when you when you get a good one, it'll be a banger, you know? So I was like, man. So then we were sat down again. We're like, well, there's got to be a better way because this just ain't working. See, I've got to hand it to these two boys. They were incredibly persistent and diligent at finding ways to make money. Sometimes it was legal, sometimes it wasn't. They would study a lot, learn how to do stuff, try it, fail, and then pivot and try something

14:10new. They were young teenagers, though, so a lot of the stuff they were doing was really dumb and not working. But they knew there was loads of money to be made online somewhere, scamming, stealing. It was just a matter of trying lots of stuff before finding where the good stuff was. One idea was the one that his mother-in-law came up with. He was married in, I don't know, 2008ish, and his wife worked at Walmart, and his mother-in-law gave him an idea. When someone goes to use a credit card to buy stuff at Walmart, the cashier tries to

14:43scan the card in the little machine. And if it works, okay, great. The card is charged and the person goes on their way. But sometimes the magnetic stripe gets screwed up. The card is broken or something like that and it doesn't swipe right. So if the cashier can't swipe the card, then they look at the numbers on the card and punch those numbers into the cash register manually and charge the card that way. Well, his mother-in-law was like, "So what you guys should do Nathan, you should bring a totally broken card when my daughter is on the register and put on the card a

15:13bunch of credit card numbers for her to try and she'll just keep punching in random credit card numbers until you guys find one that actually works. My ex-wife was a manager at Walmart. So when I tell them that my card I've demagnetized a strip on a card so that it would say they got to punch it in, they can manually enter the number then if it doesn't swipe. Then she come over there and put in her little manager key and I give her a blank card, like a blank PVC card with just a mag strip on the back of it. with a post-it note on the front of it with like eight card numbers, eight CVE, and eight expiration dates. And we just sit there and run

15:44that bitch and get whatever we get off of them. Can you guess what he was trying to buy with this? Stacks and stacks of gift cards. If a random card would work, then he'd buy as many gift cards as he could on that bogus, madeup, stolen credit card number. >> I got $30,000 worth of gift cards in one day from her Walmart. You didn't actually spend any of the gift cards, right? >> Oh, no. We spent them all. >> Why you spent Where'd you spend $30,000 in gift cards on? >> Uh, well, you know, you It's half price

16:15when you're selling it anyways. And when you're selling quantities like that, you got to go down about 40% anyways. So, >> okay. So, you were reselling them and then other people were spending it. >> Yeah. >> God damn. >> But I had sold one to my mom. So, she cuz you do bill pay at Walmart. So, I sold one to my mom and then they jam my mom up, too. My mom is retired and so she got her job at Walmart when she retired. >> So, what did your mom think of you giving her a stolen gift card? Like, it's I I imagine you've been in trouble

16:45like a thousand times by this point, but I I I should have been asking this like what do your parents think of you? >> I do. I want to aggravate with deadly weapons. >> Yeah, kindergarten. You were stabbing someone and then aggravated assaults. I imagine it's not news for your mom to hear that you're doing crazy shit, >> right? >> Yeah. Okay. So, I I don't even know what I don't even know. >> Fireworks. Fireworks, bro. Fireworks.

17:17>> At some point, the people at Walmart caught them and they put them in a room and interrogated them and told them, "Don't ever come back here again." But nothing ever came of that. >> So I can talk about this now because the statute of limitations ran out and they accept my dick. They already know except my dick. So >> okay. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Don't say anything that's going to get you in trouble here. >> Yeah. I make sure the statute of limitations is ran out. >> Yeah. And and and I should say that my uh journalistic ethics or policy here is that anything you tell me in the past,

17:47I'm not going to tell anyone except for whatever goes out publicly, right? But if you tell me that you might like harm someone in the future or commit some crime in the future, then that puts me in a moral pickle where I'm just like, man, I could have I could have prevented like >> you have a moral obligation to do what's right. >> Yeah. I So don't tell don't get me involved in any of this shit. >> I'm going to go kill some pedals. You're not going to tell me. >> Don't tell me you what you're going to do in the future. If I was you, if I was going to and they were pedophiles, you

18:17wouldn't tell them. >> It's not morally right to go tell them the magical group kills some pedophiles. >> Well, have you heard like if you tell someone your plan, they're they're part of the conspiracy at that point just because you tell them. >> Did you know the feds give out oneperson conspiracies? What? I have I have a home girl that was locked up in the fence. She was on a oneperson conspiracy. Oh my gosh. That's with phone conversations and shit, >> man. Fireworks is right. All right, let's get back on track. Um, okay. So,

18:48that plan didn't work and it was time for them to try something new. >> We started OG's crew on like gangster hackers and shit. We had So, we had like like the original 419 scammers from Nigeria and shit. We had some of them in our our crew. Like it's crazy like the people that you meet online, bro, from all different regions of the world and just different cultures and and it's it's amazing how uh but but you you get on the internet and you know we're all alike. Everybody's everybody you can be whoever you want to be on the internet. We fucking messaged this uh one uh China

19:20dude and they were they did like back then they did like uh fake iPhones and shit like that and uh he had MSRS and uh skimmers and

Credit Card Skimming

19:33embossers and tippers and all that shit. >> This is equipment to steal credit cards and and print credit cards. The MSR is a magstripe reader writer. So if you get a blank credit card, you could program it with the MSR. They studied up on how all this works and they thought, "Yeah, if we get a skimmer, we could collect our own credit cards. No need to buy dumps from others." So, he was like, "All right, let's buy a skimmer." Bro, he had like a hell of a deal, bro. It was like, "You got to buy 10 of them,

20:04though." And they were like $250 a piece back then. We saved up, got $2,500 and ordered them. And I we got like two couple MSRs and but we got mostly skimmers though. Like I had gas pump ones and everything, but they never >> Okay. So, did you try putting those skimmers on gas pumps and stuff? >> Oh, yeah. We had them on gas pumps. >> How? Okay. Okay. I've never talked with anybody who's who's ran that. So, tell me that tell me this process. Uh you was gas pumps your number one place you put them on or did you put them on other things?

20:35>> I mean, we had we had ones on ATM machines too uh uh back in the days too. But, uh the the problem was with them is trying to get get the uh pin recorded, right? like they didn't have the the uh 3D printers now where you could print something that's looks just like it that's uh that's paper thin that you can put right over the top of it. You know, they didn't have shit like that back then. >> So, it cost $200 for one skimmer >> and that was cheap. That was cheap. >> Okay. >> They usually like 600 back then.

21:05>> Okay. So, you So, yeah. Tell me tell me about putting your first skimmer >> particular order. That particular order was the ones that are about the size of a big lighter >> and they're wireless. >> Yeah. >> And they Bluetooth on them. >> Okay. So, tell me about putting your first skimmer on a machine. >> Well, there's a gas station right around the corner from my house that I've been going to my whole life. So, uh I mean I used to like clean up the parking lot and shit when I was a kid at at this gas station. So, it's like uh they would never fuck with me about anything

21:36anyways. So I would just put it in there and let it sit for about a week. >> Yeah. You So you're not even nervous driving up to it like, "Okay, here we go. We're going to put this in." You're just like, >> "Gubad got a >> I already got the keys the for all the gas pumps." Like I live in the hood, so it's like you can get whatever you want to get into anything. >> Okay, so he leaves this skimmer on the gas pump for a few days. And in case you don't know what a skimmer is, it fits right over the credit card reader on the

22:07gas pump. So when you go to swipe your card to buy some gas, his skimmer will also read your card and save the data from it. It's meant to look just like a regular scanner on the gas pump so that you don't notice it. And this is why every time I go to swipe my card anywhere, I first grab the reader and wiggle it hard to see if it comes off because then it would be a skimmer. After a few days, he comes back and pulls it off the pump and then he has to learn how to get the data off it. Okay. So, you can either unplug it and hook it up to your uh computer USB and it just downloads just opens it up and it's just

22:38like a file or you can Bluetooth them. Then the later ones have Bluetooth. You just go Bluetooth to it. Download. >> Okay. So, when you grabbed it and you and you put connected to your computer, what'd you find? >> Track one and track two information. And bro, I had the reason they caught me with all them victims and 6,500 victims from over 100 different banks is because I was trying to crack the code, bro. Crack the code. Yeah. The algorithm. I'm trying to generate dumps. >> Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, you got enough

23:10each one of them, I'd be able to figure out the the sequence. You know what I mean? >> Yeah. Cuz it's just a 16-digit number plus a CBV code. If you could if you could figure out a way to find those >> I mean they already got generators for the numbers. So if you could just find how they get out how they get the CVB code, you'd be good. >> Yeah. And that's what you were trying to do. >> That's why you need today right now today. >> So I I actually tried that same thing when I was a teenager. Like hey this is just a 16digit code. Let me just type in gibberish into this form and see if I

23:40could order shit. And of course none of it worked. And I was like okay this is beyond me. >> Big one. Well, I just was doing it at random trying to think like how how do they know if this is a real card? I'm just going to type in whatever >> and they somehow knew. But >> I always just use mom and dad's credit card to find out and then I knew the cards work like that and then so I just started stealing everybody else. No off. >> Yeah. Okay. So, >> cards like that like that. >> How many cards did you get from that gas pump? >> Oh, probably like uh 83 or something like that if I remember correctly. Dang.

24:11It >> was like for three days. Four days. And >> what' you do with those cards? I sat on them. I didn't do nothing of them. >> Why? >> I was scared. >> Yeah, they just weren't familiar enough with how all this worked. The cards they were punching in at Walmart were just random numbers that they were trying. And the dumps that they were buying, well, they knew that those were already stolen by someone else. But these cards they were skimming themselves, that's new to them. They never stole credit cards before like this. So, they just had to sit on them and let the heat cool down for a little while. We're going to

24:43take a quick ad break here, but stay with us because wherever you think this story is going, I promise you it gets way crazier than that.

Chicken Express Scheme

24:52Okay, Chicken Express. That's that's what this chapter is called. Chicken Express. I've never been there, but I'm looking at it on Google Maps, and uh there's actually a bunch of them in Texas. It's a drive-thru fast food chicken joint. And during busy times, they have two lanes for cars to line up in. But in order to take the order from that second lane, a cashier needs to walk out to the car and take the order and then also take their money so that they can go into the building and charge the credit card or get change for them. Nathan's brother's girlfriend, Elizabeth, got a job at Chicken Express

25:25taking orders. And what he what he would do was is uh he had this little girlfriend and like you know manipulation all that bullshit. So you know how that goes. >> Yeah. Convince any woman to do whatever you want do just like they can convince every man to do what they want him to do. So she was working at Chicken Express and we're like okay. [Music] They had the skimmers from before and they were like you've got this great big apron on. put the skimmer in your front

25:57apron pocket and then when you take the person's credit card into the building to swipe it also swipe it in the skimmer in your apron. The machine to charge the card was inside the restaurant. So she would take the card, leave and come back which would give her ample opportunity to stick it in that pocket and swipe it through that skimmer cuz you it don't matter which way you go on the skimmer or anything. It's going to record it. >> All right, I get it. They basically were just grabbing a copy of everyone's credit card that came through that Chicken Express lane.

26:27Her first day doing it, she got eight cards. Not bad. But again, they're too scared to use them. They've just stolen eight cards. Take it easy. Don't do anything with it. His brother was the one who was grabbing the cards off of Elizabeth's skimmer and keeping it on his computer. He didn't want to share them with Nathan. >> Right. Well, uh, we were just going to save him up for a while. But what we really were planning was is to start selling dumps. >> Okay. >> Originally, >> but I had other ideas in my head. My little brother had his ideas. I had

26:58mine. >> Yeah. What was your brother's ideas? >> Well, he he he didn't want to use them. >> I wanted to use >> Why? Okay. I This is what I don't understand. Both of you have now spent $2,500 to buy skimmers. You've both gotten dozens of cards from it. And then you're like, "Let's not use this for anything." Well, because we didn't know nothing about that side of it, you know what I mean? Like the dump side of it. We knew what track one, track two was, and we knew how to put them on cards and we knew all that stuff, but we didn't

27:29know like none of the I guess we were trying to do OPSSEAC on it. You know what I'm saying? Like I figured out >> Yeah. Okay. Okay. So, you're just being hesitant >> if we were to use these. We we were dissecting it, hacking it, >> trying to figure out how how how their system work. We didn't know who used one of these are going to come bust busting down our door right there or not. We didn't know. >> That's right. Yeah. >> So, we were more cautious about it. >> Okay, fair enough. But she keeps

28:01skimming them. >> Yeah, she kept skimming them for months. So, they just sat on them, not sure what to do. just play it cool. Until one day, Nathan decided to use one. >> One day I used like two or three of like we were stuck somewhere or something to handle gas or something and cuz we had an elaborate setup inside a vehicle to where we can make cars on our goat. We'll get to that sooner later. Okay. But uh we we we had no dumps or we couldn't get none or we couldn't get no big uh back

28:33there was Liberty Reserve. We had no Liberty Reserve to buy any our web money. Uh, so we decided to use a couple of them and they were bangers. I'm talking about bangers. Bangers. Bangers. >> He was storing these cards in a Google doc and he took a few and got some blank credit cards and he used his MSR device to write the credit card details to the card. At first, he just tried to use it on a gas pump and it worked. He got gas with this card and then he went into a store and tried buying stuff and he says

29:05with just a few cards he was able to buy $3,000 worth of stuff. >> Like every one of them hit, bro. Every one of them hit. >> Of course they hit cuz they're cards you stole. They're fresh, >> right? >> The ones you were buying the ones you were buying online were sold to four other people before they were sold to you, right? >> Yeah. I know you didn't know that, but that's why they weren't working. Yours were fresh. >> Scammed. We probably got scammed eight times before we ever got one that worked. >> That's right. Yeah. >> You know, but yeah. So, we we didn't know that they worked like that. So, once we use them fresh ones, my brother

29:35didn't want to use no more. And I'm like, "Fuck him. I got to I'm going my my wheels are spinning in my head." And once I see the taste of money, it's like I'm not worried about pussy. I'm not worried about drugs. You ever been addicted to making money? >> Talk about being addicted to making money because it's an addiction. He had some of these cards from the skimmers that he was putting around town. But it was his brother who had the most amount of cards from all the cards his girlfriend Elizabeth was skimming at Chicken Express, but his brother wasn't sharing those cards with Nathan. And his

30:07mind was racing with how to get those from his brother. >> I don't I don't know if you how much of the federal paperwork you read or you looked anything up, but there was like u 58 people they wanted to indict. >> 58. >> And they only got three of us. Well, I got four of us, but only three of us. >> Yeah. Well, you have to tell me when those other 55 come in to play cuz we've only listed three so far. >> They've they've already been involved with all that. We're already making car. Well, that by that time, we're already making cards. We're already deep in the game by then. This is when we get the fresh dumps and we're using the fresh

30:37dumps that were scammed. That's what our f started because of. >> Okay. So, the the other 50 people were involved before this. >> Not necessarily all 50 of them. Like my brother had his people and I had my people. My brother had like four or five people and then I had like 30 people. >> Okay. And and these other people, what were their roles? >> Shoppers. >> See, Nathan had a Fargo printer, which is a classic printer used to make IDs. Think membership cards or student IDs,

31:07employee badges, but he was using it to make credit cards, and he was making them look really good. I'd print the cards and then program the mag strip. And that my my my my little key trick was so they don't have to ask you for ID, just put your fucking picture in the corner of the fucking card, you know. So So you had a guy that would that you took a picture of him and you would print it on the card to make it look like a like a legitimate card as it wasn't just a blank card. You were printing on the card to make it look as good as possible.

31:38>> Yeah. >> And then he would take it in the store and like look at my picture's on the card. How how can you say that's not me? >> Exactly. >> Wow. That's uh that's going the the length there. >> Like this was like in 2008 so or seven and eight. So like nobody was doing it like that back then. So he would go around his neighborhood and hit up people he thought might want the extra cash and have them come over and then he'd make a bunch of credit cards with their photo on it and have them go out and shop with stolen credit cards and then bring back any of the stuff you buy

32:09with it. >> So what I would do since I'm providing the cards, I fig I figured the cards were if they're buying it dump and they're making the card. So, I charge $100 for a card basically, right? Okay. It's what? So, say they bring me back $3,000 worth of merchandise. I can only sell it for half price. So, it's 1,500 out the gate. I'm taking 100 off for each card and I'm paying you cash the rest. >> God damn. So, people Yeah. Okay. That's a pretty good incentive for I could see why a bunch of people would want to get in on this in

32:39Texas. Well, and and and plus, you know, like I was in the hood, so everybody's broke. Nobody has nice jobs and shit like that. Their all their parents are crackheads or whores or prostitutes or pimps or the pushers. The pimps are the pushers. Okay. So, all that was going around for a while with crappy stolen credit cards. A lot that didn't work. But now Nathan is like, "Man, I'm sitting on a bunch of banger cards. It's time to start making some real money with these." But his brother was the one who had the bulk of them. and he wasn't

33:10sharing. >> So my brother didn't want to uh use him and so I hacked my brother. Fuck. I mean I hacked him and started using him. >> Wait, you hacked your brother? >> Yeah, why not? >> You got something I want? >> I mean, >> how'd you do that? >> I mean, I just got on his computer and fucking and stole his f. I knew, you know, we think it's my little brother, you know, so obviously he's uh learned from me, so he's going to think kind of like I think. So it wasn't that hard to

33:40find the text document and where was he and I' I've seen him uh you know cuz it was his girlfriend that was doing it, right? >> Yeah. >> So and then uh you know I I didn't go to prison the first time till I was 30. So I made a pretty good pile before I got in trouble. >> I did good for myself. What age do you think your uh daughter is going to be before she goes to prison for the first time? >> They're not going to prison. One of them's graduated college. The

34:11other one's in college. And my 16-year-old is fixing to graduate high school with her nursing uh shit done uh