The Truman Show with J.D. Amato

Introduction

0:01Blankjack with Griffin and David Blankjack with Griffin and David Don't know what to say or to expect All you need to know is that the name of the show is Blankjack

0:23Griffin Griffin You can speak. I can hear you Who are you? I am the creator of a podcast that gives hope and joy and inspiration to millions

Guest Introduction

0:41Millions sounds a little high. Then who am I? You're the star or the sidekick to some people It's nothing real. Was this all bits? You were real. That's what made you so good to listen to. Listen to me, Griffin. There's no more truth out there than there is in this world that Ben created for you. The same lies, the same deceit. But in our world, you have nothing to fear. We know you better than you know yourself.

1:19You never had a microphone in my head. You're afraid. That's why you can't leave. It's okay, Griffin. I understand. We've been listening to your whole life. We were listening when you were born. We were listening when you took your first step. We were listening when you showed up late the first day to work. And the second day. And the third day. It was a soft noon. It was kind of, we all know. It's more like 1215. It's not. Episode of the podcast where you lost your first tooth. You can't leave, Griffin. You belong here. With me. And David. And Ben. And sometimes Marie.

2:01Yeah. Mostly new releases. Come on. Talk to me. Well, say something, goddammit. You're on a podcast. You're live to the whole world.

Blank Check Podcast

2:12In case I don't see ya. This is Blank Check with Griffin and David. I'm Griffin. I'm David. It's a podcast about filmographies. Directors who have massive success early on in their careers and are given a series of blank checks to make whatever crazy passion projects they want. And sometimes those checks clear and sometimes they bounce. Baby! This is a miniseries on the films of Peter Weir. It is called Podnick at Hanging Cast. There you go. Normal. Normal. And today we are talking about The Truman Show. And I swear, I know people aren't going to believe because there's editing involved, but I swear to you, that was the fifth take.

2:49That was, that took so long. I, no joke, the time to which we agreed to start recording this episode and the time it is now, there was an hour difference between those two numbers. Many things happened. What things happened? I was early. J.D. was late. Oh, Mike. We had much to discuss off mic. I, I, Griffin calling out a guest for being late is the height of hypocrisy. I don't like the framework of this episode starting an hour late because of the intro. Intro took a while.

3:19Intro took a sec. Intro took a sec. I can't believe what's happening here. I'm just saying. I'm with you, J.D., and I'm going to let you handle it. I'm just saying. I support you. There's times when you have been 45 minutes late to this recording. Impossible. When I have been here. Impossible. And sweet David and Ben, I'm sure they have numerous stories of that. The one time that I'm 15 minutes late, I get called out immediately. Immediately. It's a dangerous road to go down. I'm not angry. If you being 50 minutes late was turned into a Griff slam. This is insane.

3:49David texted, we'll probably get here before Griffin. And I said, I am here. Yeah. You were here. You were watching the show. Good job, Ben, getting, uh, Griff to watch special features with you. What are you? No, he was here watching the movie. What are you talking about? Griffin, I know. I, I'm baiting you. You have to relax. I swear to God. You, Griffin, are chronically late to blank check and thus we make fun of you. This is the first time you have to bear. Wow. You are chronically late to this show. We've been doing it for 11 years. And I'm going to jump in.

4:19Decade of dream. Okay. That's it. You simply have to accept that you will take some hits on that one.

Late Arrival Discussion

4:26But JD, what were you saying? I was just going to say, you're, you're accounting for blank check. I'll represent the rest of Griffin's life outside of blank check. This is not a blank check phenomenon. So it would be really insulting if it was blank check. Oh, and everyone else is like, I don't understand. I feel like I'm being Truman showed. I feel like you motherfuckers are Truman showing me. Can I admit something? Because I didn't do it. What? But I had made plans to Truman show each of you over the past month that fell through. Oh, you were going to like film us from afar.

4:57And I was going to have people walk up to you and talk to you while microphone. It would, it would break a two party consent laws recording in New York state. It sounds a little creepy. Yeah. Well, the big one that I was going to do fell through that involved. It was going to happen while Griff was abroad. Intro. Oh, okay. Okay. We could probably piece together. Oh, sure. Okay. That's an obvious. I can, I can figure that out. But what about me? I'm more interested in how you were going to begin. Well, I had ideas for each of you. And then when that fell through and then life got crazy, I didn't do it.

5:28So we're going to Mike all three of David's children. Exactly. And then I just heard a lot of like, can you not hit each other? I could push and yell. And okay. Well, and then I decided not to do it because I felt like also morally, ethically, it was not as fun to me in a way that I'm like, that would have, that was me doing it with friends. What they did to Truman. What they did to Truman. Let's be very clear because sometimes people consider discussion endorsement. We are not platforming Kristoff on this episode.

5:58We in no way condone his actions. We don't think the Truman show was moral. Just because we're devoting an episode to it does not mean we co-sign the actions of Kristoff. No. No, I don't co-sign. This is a, yes, this is not a movie that co-signs him either. Right? I'm doing a bit. Have we forgotten how bits work? Good bit. Good bit. I like, I like a version of, this is actually so fun. I think there's people for whom the Truman show could be an entry point episode. Yeah. Who knows?

6:28That's a good point. So I do think there's a fun dynamic that today we have chill, happy David and worked up Griffin. Guess what I did right before I came here? Took a swim. I guessed that. Feeling good. Simply never. Filed an article, took a swim. Here I am at blank check talking about one of my favorite movies ever made. Truman style, I'd be doubled over on, on the fucking diving board. Yeah. Yeah. I would never touch that water. Simply never. Truman probably doesn't even swim laps, right? Like he doesn't go to the pool.

6:58I heard he doesn't drink milk either. No. I mean, in the, the fiction of the universe, they would keep him far away from being comfortable in the water. Right. That would be bad. That would be right for him to learn how to swim. Yes. Go ahead.

Truman Show Analysis

7:11What you just said, this is one of your favorite movies of all time. Absolutely. Huge David movie. I think it's a movie that is possibly without flaw. You texted me last night without a flaw. I think that might be correct. Well, here's the thing. I'll say this under the guise of- Which is a different sort of review than like, it's my favorite or it's the best or whatever. But it is a movie where you're like, yeah, everything went perfectly here. Like, you know, or what, everything I'm being presented with. Oh, he's got a flaw. One thing did jump out at me. What's that? No chance.

7:41I haven't watched this since I saw it in theaters. And I was a younger man and it was a different time. But this was basically your first watch in 19 years. Yes. Yeah. The stuff where he is freaking out and he puts a knife to his wife up to her throat. The way that- It's not a knife. It's the slicer dicer. Yeah. It's a sharp thing that could hurt her. Yeah. And she says, do something. The domestic violence of it all was really shocking.

8:12That's so interesting. And that it didn't play for me at the time as being so scary and like, how there is almost violence committed. I think that's- Yes, this is a man who's not okay. Yeah. Right. And he has to hit that breaking point. And his wife is an actor and he's gone mad. And it's just the thing where then it doesn't feel like, whoa, he almost just really hurt her. I think it does. I don't really take it that way. I disagree with that. I think it does. I think the movie carries that way.

8:42Just the thing that jumps out to me this time. I mean, she has to scream, do something. Right. Like the point is like, that's the moment where she breaks. And she starts- Because there's a moment where all of them break. Yeah. The moment where Noah Emmerich breaks is when he goes like, he's gone. Right. Which is when they're like, cut transmission. Like the wall is broken. Right. You know, and that's when she says, do something. She also is the one. Yeah. She starts brandishing it. Not that it's like a self-defense move on his part. She does brandish it. You know? He grabs- Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it's leading to the breaking reality of like, he's already sort of like, what's the fucking deal with this knife?

9:13You know? He's like, called out the like, her selling products like earlier in that conversation. Who are you talking to? I agree with Ben though. I think it's- I think it's terrifying. Yeah, it's scary. It shows that this is not a well man. And it's- it's not a heroic character in that sense. It's someone who is going through great turmoil. Yes. Just piggyback onto that comment as well as, when I say this is a movie without flaw, I mean, in terms of the story elements as I see them today in 2026, obviously, I can imagine

9:43that years from now there might be stuff that even right now you could look at and say there's flaws in that. I just sort of mean, it's a really- I meant that in a way that it's a very tight movie that everything seems to be accounted for. J.D., let me- Not that it's a movie without the ability to culturally- I get what you're trying to say. Let me help you here. J.D. does endorse the behavior of Truman in the kitchen scene when he holds the knife to his wife's arm. I'm sorry, slicer dicer. Yes. That's what I was- thank you, Griffin. I appreciate it. You said, imagine this might be an entry point for new listeners.

10:15I think Blank Check is now like the Truman Dome where there's only a door and an exit. I think we've trapped a lot of people in our ecosystem. How do people enter? Blank Check? No. True, true, what's it called, this town? I think truly- The elevators. You see it. You see it backstage. Oh, sure. Right. But like- But also maybe partially- How many entrances are there? Maybe partially through that door? There are probably many entrances.

10:45No, it's not through that door because that door is just a little scary. No, that would be insane. It would be insane. If every day to go to work you had to take a sailboat from there. No, that's my question. Because it's like, if it's a town of what do we think, like a couple thousand people or something? Yeah. Obviously, they live there. Like the people who are there mostly live there. The main cast. The regulars. If you're under a regular contract. No, I think- No, no, no. Way more than that. Because they say they sell property. You can live there. Oh, sure. And like, I think the idea is like, you're allowed to live here as long as you agree to not like run up to Truman and yell at him.

11:15But they also clearly will cast people for new roles. Right. But any of these people- And people are being sorted out. I'm just like, how do they get stuff in? How do they get food in? Well, here's the interesting thing. You know, how do they get all the ecosystem in? You guys were just talking about watching the special features. Right. And like the making of thing. It's one of the privileges of being early to this podcast. Oh, my. You can throw on a couple special features. Oh, my God. Let me check with Griffin and David. There's people who are listening to this episode for the first time who they think Griffin's whole thing is that he's on time. It's the second decade of dreams.

11:46Punctual Griff. But Peter Weir talks about a lot of the world that they built and how they envisioned this coming to be. And something I thought was fascinating is that they hint at in the movie. And once I heard Peter Weir explain, I was like, oh, right. This is what they're hinting at. Originally, the Truman Show, as they saw it, started with just an infant. It was a way to sell baby products. Yeah. And so it was just- Because you are like, who watched the show when it was just a baby? But then I'm like, at every pass with the Truman Show, I'm like, now I'd watch it.

12:17Like every single time. You know, when I was a kid, I used to be like, no one would watch it. Now I'm like, everyone would watch this. The brilliant thing about this movie is that the internal logic is really tight on- It starts and you're like, how could they have constructed all of this? And the answer is, what Kristoff had to pitch to someone originally was really small, contained, and cheap. We pick whatever they say, four or five pregnant mothers. We follow them. We follow a baby. If a baby's awareness is so low, we don't have to construct fiction around them in the same kind of way. And then at every age he gets older, the bigger the show becomes, the more money they can raise,

12:51the more they can build around him. Well, then what Peter Weir said was that in their internal logic was that they added a garage that you could see the dad coming home so they could sell garage products to men. And then they started like, oh, well, we'll just keep increasing it. We'll make a town. And they sort of hint to that, you know, they have the flashback when he's a kid, you hear like construction going on over there. 100% over the hill, which where they're like, Truman get off those rocks. The most scary image in all in that montage is though, is when he's in the crib and he sees the cameras in the moment. It's so good. I think about it. It freaks me out so much.

13:21Yeah. Because it is the like the innocence of a baby. Like where they're like, yeah, they wouldn't know what that is. You know what? The thing. Of course, I do watch my child through a camera. I do. Yeah. They don't broadcast it. And your children listen to blank track. So they're. No, they do not. Hearing. They are certainly not allowed to do that. Through AirPods or Raycons. Maybe if they prefer. David's children won't know podcasts exist until they're 18. I guess so. I love the idea of David. I've thought about it. Out of professional shame, needing to create his version of a we don't have TV in our home.

13:51Right. Yeah. As much R-rated movies as you like. Radio goes out over broadcast signals. Yeah, well. And you have to listen to it at the time. Don't you, Ben, don't you put this out over any broadcasts. Okay? All right. No AM. All right. No FM. I promise. I think the single best choice Weir makes in a lot of ways with this movie is that Kristoff isn't the obvious route one crass TV entrepreneur sleazeball that he is buying his own bullshit.

14:22Of course. This was like a conceptual artist. Right. The way he dresses. Exactly. That he's like some fucking Soho art guy. And you're genuinely like this guy was probably doing performance art and large installations and whatever for like 20 years. I mean, he's based off the fucking Gates guy, which when the Gates happened in New York, I was like, oh, retroactively, that's what Ed Harris was playing. But then he comes up with this idea that's like, this is such a big project, but also I could make money doing it. And he and his final speech to Truman is like really buying his own shit.

14:53That this is the most profound work of the human condition. He's been waiting to tell Truman this for his whole life. Yes. Like he's excited to do it. And he thinks obviously that Truman will be happy to hear it. And he thinks he has done something kind for Truman and made humanity better at the same time while also making the most profound work of art in history. Maybe he did. Maybe it's good. Maybe I'm reversing my opinion. Truman show good. Yeah. Sorry. Truman show good. Truman show good. And I think especially the casting of Ed Harris, you could cast someone to say those exact lines and do that exact thing that plays it more like a, hey, I'm a TV director

15:27guy. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It was a big eighties trope. Right. Of the like, the like, listen, I'm just like a TV guy and it's all about ratings, ratings, ratings. And like even running the running man is doing it again in 2025 in a way where you're just sort of like, this isn't really the archetype anymore. No. And I think, I think the more, more evil than the, uh, ratings go up guy is the no, no, no. What I'm creating is actually important art. Cause that guy's just like, it's business baby. Like people want it.

15:57I'm serving them the slop. This guy is, is so pretentious and there are also other people and we'll get to like the Hopper thing, but there are other people who could have played the character in this form. Once we're identified the shape of him and it would have read more like parody versus Harris is so incapable of being sort of tongue in cheek and sincere that he's lending everything he's saying with the most gravitas it could possibly be given. Yes. I mean, it's, it's God, this is such a wonderful movie.

16:28I love this movie. I also think it's a movie that I don't even know how to categorize this. And maybe you guys can help me conceptualize this. There are movies that just when they, they come out, they become their own conceptual entities that feel like they've been around forever. It's like the matrix, you know what I mean? Where it's like, but when the matrix comes out, you're sort of like, oh yeah. Like that idea that there's this world beneath the world that is operating above and beyond, you know, that it becomes so like, yeah, of course that's a trope in

16:58whatever. Right. You live in a simulation. Yeah. Someone texted me last night. The Truman show matrix one, two punch was the season ending philosophical cliffhanger that brought us the mess. That was the two thousands and set the stage for the 2020s. I agree with that. Now here's a bigger question that sparked in me. Has there been an idea that big in movies that has burrowed that deeply into our collective consciousness since those two? Like, has there in the 21st century?

17:28So I'm just. Well, Ernest Goes to Jail was before. That was before. I'm just going to hit pause a little bit because I'm like the matrix idea I think is the idea you're talking about. The idea that we live in a simulation. I just mean. I know it. I want to finish this thought. Like, and I, and I feel like the matrix, like you say, did become like a cultural. The Truman show idea. Yes. There's the, oh, what if your life was a TV? But I think it speaks to the much deeper feeling that everyone has had at some point, which is, am I the protagonist of reality? Like everyone's had that sort of fantasy nightmare.

18:00It's such a, it's such, it's such a part of being a person. A hundred percent. Especially being a growing person. It's in the dossier that Andrew McNichol was like, that's where it came from. Andrew. Sorry. No Mick. I was going to make a joke. And then I realized if you just spotlight that part of the name that I got wrong, it sounds like a slur. Um, for the Irish. Ben Hosley. Right here. Easy. Wow. I'm not saying it. I think everyone needs to settle down. I think I, you really saw, you really, you really saw that by pointing it at someone

18:32directly. Is there an idea since the, his entered the cultural consciousness? So I would have to think, I don't know. Yeah. I was just reading through the dossier and how Andrew Nichol came up with this idea and talking about it being extension of when you're a child and you reckon with that, like, am I the center of the universe? You know, your, uh, awareness, your understanding expands, but they're always, it lingers as like a paranoia. And that he was just like, I wrote this down on a piece of paper, knew I had a fucking bulletproof idea. You know, I send like one page out to all the studios and people were like, you have

19:06struck gold. And I don't know, even just in like you and I, David reading fucking deadline and everything. And when there's like the new hot project in town, like the bidding war over this, I can't remember the last time a movie had like a sentence like this that immediately everyone went, holy shit. I would have to think there's gotta be something. Well, I, yeah. I also think too, what I meant even more so than just the premise of the, the matrix and the Truman show being similar in the sense that there's these sort of alternate universes

19:38of just them as artistic objects feeling so primary to culture, like in a way that I think you could throw Titanic in there or something. But what if Batman begun? Yes, exactly. We'd only seen him middle before. Exactly. Because here's the thing with the Truman show. It's not like this idea hadn't been done before in some ways. No. Right. There, there, there had been a lineage of TV shows and movies that were sort of like, Oh, what a channeling show is a guy knows that his life is a TV show. What's the BBC series?

20:08Seven up. Seven up. Sure. Right. That had been around. Of course. Yes. They're still around. Which I, every seven years. And I, I also rewatched it after. Cause I watched the Truman show of whatever a couple months ago when we agreed to do this. I was like, I watched the Truman show then cause I was excited. And then I was like, I want to watch the seven up series again. Because I was also going down the sort of philosophical rabbit hole of like, how does it mean to point a camera at someone and document their life? Yes. And how, how does it change their life and all that?

20:38In what ways have we attempted to do things like this and succeeded in a family? What, what, what were the real ramifications? And I feel like the seven up series is the closest thing to the closest thing to this that we have. Do you find having, when you watch, so you watch seven up, which is just, I just found, find the most like profoundly moving document. It's so interesting. It's such a portrait of Britain, you know, at the time and the class system and all that. And then you, you watch 14 and 21 and you're like, I can't watch this. It's so uncomfortable. These poor kids. I would argue.

21:08I would argue. And then you get past that. And then you're like, now it's pretty juicy again. Like now it's really interesting to see how shit shook out. I have always argued. It's those middle ones that are tough. That Linklater's boyhood has this exact problem where there are a couple years in the middle where you're like, it is too painful to watch. Get a camera off him. Anyone at that age. Yeah, it's tough. Yeah. And boyhood like just ends when you're like, maybe this guy's chilling out a bit. There's a French movie called Etre et Avoir, a documentary to be in. That's a very good film. It is. Um, but there is, which is about a one room schoolhouse in like rural France taught by

21:41this very like engaging, interesting teacher. We forgot about that movie. It's a great movie. Yeah. But it is one of those movies where you're like, I think it was fundamentally unethical to make this. Yeah. I think this is like, this shouldn't have been allowed. I was just listening to our friends, the big picture. It will be months old at the time this episode comes out. But they were did an episode where they were talking through the 2026 best documentary nominees and how they were like, every one of these movies feels potentially unethical to me.

22:11Sure. Yeah. Maybe we're all being too woke. Well, but they were sort of just like in this weird world we live in where now everyone is like public. Everyone is like to some degree front facing cameras are everywhere. Somehow also it feels like the lines are more blurred than ever in what is supposed to be a sort of controlled, ethical, delineated documentary form. And especially for these like highbrow Oscar docs that are like issues movies. They're like all five of these are like very not self-righteous, but like this matters and

22:44we need to bring light to the subject. And they're like every one of these I watched tensing up about like, is this actually moral to do to these people? And that just feels like an extension of life at large now. Yeah. And I think, I mean, listen, that pointing a camera at something is a subjective action no matter what you do. Yeah. And that subjectivity is radioactive no matter what, because it's, it's something that people are projecting onto. When they pointed a camera at Ed, you know, for his TV, his mom, you know, reveals the affair.

23:17I don't think what else happens in Ed TV. I don't remember all the TV. Well, I know Dennis Hopper. He sleeps with his girlfriend's, his brother's girlfriend, Jenna Elfman. Yes. Dennis Hopper plays Ed's dad in that? Correct. And Martin Landau's his stepfather? Correct. Uh, uh, uh, Hopper comes out of the woodwork. Like, you know. It's just interesting that this is a movie where Truman's dad comes out of the woodwork and Hopper was originally cast to play Ed Harris. We can talk about that. But of course, the big difference is that Truman's dad is not his dad. I know, but I'm just saying, interesting parallels.

23:47That's the only difference between Ed TV and The Truman Show. Well, I mean, I think Ed TV must be discussed, obviously, when you're talking about The Truman Show, but it, right, it's the other, Ed TV's the opposite. Let's also say, Pleasantville, all three of them were lumped together. Interesting. They're very different, but there's like a tapestry there where you're like- Well, because Pleasantville has the right, the sort of, the American small town, like, fantasy thing. Pleasantville is full, magical, like, you know, at one end, what if you lived in a 50s TV show? TV is just, what if a guy allowed people to film him all the time?

24:18And then Truman Show is, what if they constructed a fake reality that kind of was inspired by 50s sitcoms, and that was televised unbeknownst to this man. It was just fascinating that all three of these movies came out, and it was seen as this real, like, what feels incredibly, like, naive in 1998. We need to reckon with how much cameras are a part of our lives, not knowing how fucking insane things we're going to get over the next three decades. Well- But that it felt urgent enough in 1998 that it's like our relationship to media, to watching other people's lives, to our lives, to the 15 minutes of fame thing, to all of this is hitting a crisis point.

24:58And it was abstracted into, like, three different takes. Yeah, 100%. And I also think there's something interesting that after that period of time, what transpired, especially in television, was an exploration of all these concepts that actually took it, you know, in… In great ways, great directions. Perfect. In really problematic directions, obviously. Like… You don't endorse the actions of television? I mean, I'm one to speak, you know what I mean? Look, I'm not going to talk in a term, but I've been…

25:30J.D.'s been known to make a TV show or two in his day. But you know what I mean? Like, I think what's interesting is that a lot of projects start with this idea of observing reality. Yeah. And the thing that people find is that reality itself can be both the most fascinating thing but also is not controllable in the ways that you want. And I think that's one of the fascinating things about the 7-Up series, right? Is that the 7-Up series is not the Truman Show, right? It's not necessarily… No. It's not aspirational.

26:00It's not intruding on them much either, obviously. But I mean, in terms of the thematic, what you feel, right? Because you feel this great melancholy. There's this beauty that, you know, can bring you to tears because you're seeing that life has these twists and turns and a lot of the beauty of it comes from the simplicity of it and the moments of calm, right? It's not the big, you know, story moments that are the thing that make that interesting. But also, like, I'm someone who doesn't cry a ton at movies despite loving movies and being a very emotional person.

26:32But if I were to try to actually take a tally of all the movies that, like, made me shed a tear or got me within that zone, I would guess a disproportionate amount of them are documentaries. Because there is an added juice to me of being like, I can't believe they got this. In documentaries, I feel like it hits me when I watch a documentary that doesn't feel manicured and manipulated and something happens that feels so raw and can often be a tiny moment. But I'm just like, the fact that this was actually caught…

27:02Is it the Harvard Ethnography Lab? Which I'm obsessed with. So, one of… A film that I put in my top 10 films of all time… Big same. And it's a result of Griffin, was that Griffin and I went and saw a screening of Monocamana when it came out in theaters. You've talked about this on the show before. Have I? A Nepalese cable car movie. And honestly, it's a movie where I have not laughed as hard with an audience. We all shed tears at this… Like, for something that is, you know, 10 shots doing its best to observe and curate reality in some way.

27:39I brought it up before, but just to fill in listeners, because also, anytime I say the name, people are like, what the fuck is the title of this film? It's called Monocamana, essentially, is how you would say it. M-A-N-A-K-A-M-A-N-A. Correct. Which is, it's a cable car in Nepal. They placed a camera in a cable car in Nepal that goes up and down this mountain. And they literally just… It was months of, you know, doing trial runs and casting other people and whatever. But what you watch are just 10 unbroken takes… Five trips up, five trips down…

28:10…of the loops of this thing. no editing, single shot. And yet, the curation of those 10 trips told the story about the human experience that is still subjective because it's curating those 10 shots. They're trying to make it as... Exactly. And the film Leviathan, which is also by the Sensory Ethnography Lab, is a film I really like. Stanford, is it Stanford Ethnography Lab? No, it's Harvard. It's called the Sensory Ethnography Lab, is the program you're referring to. It's led by Lucian Custin-Taylor, who's very interested in all this kind of hidden camera,

28:41kind of, can we just document life? But I went to see Monica Mona because I was like, I'm hearing good things about this, and I buy my ticket, I go see it at IFC by myself, and I'm three minutes in, like, have I made a mistake? Was this me being high-minded and I'm about to be fucking bored? Did I forget I don't like this stuff? You gotta, it's the meditative thing of like, you just gotta, you gotta, you know, give yourself over to it, chill out for a minute. You guys ever float in a tank? No, never. Yeah. So I... I did an isolation tank for the first time recently. Did you go to Vessel? Yeah. Yeah, that place is great.

29:12It was excellent. I think that, how did you like it? I only did 30 minutes. Sure. Did you go full black? That's what I was gonna say. I had to kind of slowly ease into it, so I started initially with light while also having some ambient sound, but then removed the light, had a little bit more time with the sound, and then, you know, my goal was to do 30 minutes of just complete darkness, no input. But it was crazy. But I got into it.

29:42Yeah. I got really lost in it. That's what Griffin's talking about. Sorry, finish your thought, Griffin. I see this. I totally get on its wavelength. I walk out. I have like, one of the most profound, like, feelings leaving the theater I've ever had from a movie. What's best about my movie? I text you almost immediately, and I'm like, JD, I just saw this thing. I need to see it again, and I really think you need to see it. Can we figure out a day? We go see it again. I see it like twice in one week, and I'm there with JD, and I'm sort of like, was what happened here collectively with this audience a one-off experience? I need to test

30:12if the exact same arc of this will happen. Watch the first one. There's like no talking, and you're like, is this literally just gonna be fly on the wall of people not communicating in a cable car? And then I think it's the second ride. There's an old man and a little boy. That's what's on the poster. Yes. And like minutes into it, the entire audience all starts laughing at the same time. And nothing funny has happened, but it's like your brain is adjusting to what's going on, and suddenly you're asking all these questions about the two of them. And it's like,

30:42what is their relationship? Are they like grandfather and son? Are they strangers? Like, how do they know each other? Have they gotten here? Are they silent because they have no familiarity with each other because they have profound familiarity with each other? The little boy, I think, is wearing a Tom and Jerry hat. Yes. And you're like, wait a second, does he know what Tom and Jerry are? Do Tom and Jerry exist in Nepal? Why am I asking that question? What don't I know about like Nepalese like relationships to American media? And suddenly you're projecting

31:12all this stuff onto it, asking yourself all these questions. And there is just kind of the funny awkwardness of the two of them sitting there in silence. And then you're like, oh, right. Every movie I watch is communicating like 80,000 things to me at once, whether intentional or unintentional. The choices of the music and the image and the performance and the costuming and the set dressing and the writing and the dialogue is working like overtime to convey ideas, story, feelings to me. And I'm watching like two people sitting in silence

31:44and suddenly asking incredibly wide-ranging questions. And that experience is kind of like, you know, ghost hunters listening to static, right? Where if you just listen to static for a long enough time, you start to pick up on it. But because our life is so full of noise, you don't pick up on these little changes. So those changes seem unusual when you focus on them. Totally. And then like five rides in, it's like two American tourist girls and they're talking, but you've readjusted to how you listen to people speak because you've been deprived of that.

32:15And then there's a ride that's just a bunch of goats. And suddenly, it's the most captivating thing you've ever seen because you've met the movie on its level. And now you're like, wow, the way goats interact is not that different than the way humans interact. And like, we are just animals and what's the difference? Like, you go into all of these places. You imagine Christoph being like, we're just going to film a baby and people are like, film a baby. Well, I got to tune in to see what this is like. And then they just can't stop watching. But here's what I think is interesting that Truman Show taps in on, right? Is Christoph is not just observing reality.

32:45No, he's not. He is doing the thing that we have done through the history of media, which is we take the beauty of life that we see, which is a bunch of goats riding a cable car, and instead we go, well, surely, I know how to make that better. I know how to control that. Yeah, he's doing the village. Which is the history of what happened to documentary and reality TV. I mean, we're in a place right now where documentary film is in a really, really dark place because it's been, it's been taken over by this sense of control and ownership. We also,

33:15and this is something I've been talking to my therapist about, we make our own stories up to process our own lives. Like, the way that I'm remembering things but even experiencing things, I've like built up these stories. Well, also, the psychological phenomenon that if you tell a story to someone about something that happened to you, your memory of the actual event is immediately replaced with the story you just told. It basically overrides it.

33:46So the more you tell a story of your life, the more you're actually remembering your own telling of the story. Which is how these things iterate. We're like, we were texting the other day, David, in the Blank Check thread about Robert Altman losing Best Director for Gosford Park because Marie was asking, how in the world did Apollo 13 not win Best Picture? And David and I swing in with our, like, we're ready to answer this, we're thinking about this all the time, right? And we're like, well, Apollo 13, it was like this and then that and then of course like Braveheart's this sort of surprise and it spoke to how powerful Mel Gibson

34:16was at that moment and Marie was like, so is that why Beautiful Mind won so big? And we were like, there was definitely that element of him being overdue but also the Crow thing and this and that and then I said, remember how Robert Altman was seen as the frontrunner for Best Director that year for Gosford Park because it was kind of a lifetime anointment and then he made a speech at the Golden Globes that was anti-Bush and anti-war and immediately his campaign was tanked and David was like, yes. I was like, yeah, that sounds right

34:47and I looked up a thing from it. Looked up the, no, I didn't quote back a thing but I looked up the, then I looked up the speech and I was like, no, this speech is totally normal. You said chickens come home to roost. No, no, I wasn't quoting him. I was just saying like, he did, didn't he do like a chickens coming home to roost thing but he did but not at the Golden Globes. Right. But I said that and you accepted it and we're like, yeah, 100%. Yes, we are, yes, we are our own myth makers. David's a bit of a Kristoff. Wait, so what, what have you, what have you been exploring in therapy about that?

35:17I feel like you can finish your,