The Other Humans: Why We Survived?

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1:59Download Voice Map from your app store or go to voicemap.me slash historyhit. That's voicemap.me forward slash historyhit. We are used to sharing our planet with millions of other species.

2:30But only one human species has survived. Homo sapiens. Modern humans. Us. Now, this wasn't always the case. Early in our story, tens of thousands of years ago, we lived alongside several other species of humans. Relatives who shared our world. Who evolved alongside us. Sometimes competing. Sometimes coexisting. And ultimately, suffering extinction. Like the Neanderthals in Europe.

3:02And the Denisovans in Asia. Human evolution is less like a family tree and more like a tangled web. With new discoveries revealing more about this every year. Welcome to the Ancients. I'm Tristan Hughes, your host. And this is the story of the early humans who once shared our world. Our guest is the paleoanthropologist, presenter, comedian and author, Ella Al-Shamahi. Ella's new tour, Becoming Human, continues in the UK on the 28th of May.

3:40Ella, it is great to have you back on the show. Well, thanks so much for having me. I had so much fun last time. It was a lot of fun. And today we're kind of doing a tour of our extinct human relatives, archaic humans. Those extinct people. But yeah, the archaics. But explaining that if we went back 100,000 years, it wasn't just us. It wasn't just Homo sapiens. There was a whole range of different humans that lived on the earth. I cannot get my head around how the public have not fully been introduced to this concept until very, very recently.

4:15I kind of had a real fun with this, should we say, for the series Human and in my tour, actually, as well. Because I explain it to people as this is pretty much the only time in human history where one species of human has walked this earth. We're alone today, but we never used to be alone. And I think it's so difficult for us to understand because we are the main species in our minds, at least, on this planet. We are the only human. Nobody comes close in terms of this, that, and the other, or so we think.

4:46And actually, what's happening right now is incredibly unusual. We previously were a regional species. And there were lots of other human species who were kind of also regional species. And there were lots of us. And I often say it was a lot like Lord of the Rings. And there's a big question as to how many species there were. And a lot of us think that the number that we have right now is the tip of the iceberg. You know, I'm sorry. I think you can easily argue that this is the golden age of paleoanthropology and that that number will keep growing.

5:19I mean, we keep finding species. Like, I don't even, I can't comprehend how big the family tree has got since I became a paleoanthropologist. You know, so, like, when I was, like, 18 and now I'm, you know, 42, like, the extent to which the family tree has expanded is shocking. Absolutely shocking. Like, they found one hobbit species. We thought that was quite impressive. Now, they think they've found two hobbit species. Yeah. The family tree just keeps expanding. I mean, two words just to kick it off. Indonesian islands.

5:50Yeah. How exciting, right, in the future. As you say, tip of the iceberg. How many more species we'll find even just from that one area? Yeah. Okay. So, basically, 20-odd years ago, they discovered a new species of human. They called it Thermofloresiensis because it was found on the island of Flores. Whereas it was absolutely shocking. I remember, you know, I was so young at the time and just being like, what? They've done what? And it was basically, I mean, to the point where when they found this skull, they assumed it was a child because it was so small.

6:20And then they realized that anatomically, no, that's an adult. And it was so controversial that there were, like, shouting matches in anthropology conferences. Because there was people kind of understandably being like, one fossil does not a species make. You can't find one fossil that's unusual. And, you know, it could be microcephaly. It could be dwarfism. It could be this. It could be that. You can't just be claiming this crazy thing, which is. And for those of you who are kind of not familiar or as familiar with the field,

6:53this is a species with a brain the size of the brain of chimpanzees. A brain the size of, like, an orange or a grapefruit. So it's not really supposed to be a human brain that is capable of making stone tools, potentially manipulating fire. It doesn't make sense. It's not the way we thought humans were defined. And yet here we are with a species that, by the way, probably comes up to my hip. So it's probably the size of a four-year-old. Or as one of my friends said recently, the size of a penguin. Which is perfect.

7:23On an island called Flores with giant Komodo dragons, giant rats, giant carnivorous, flesh-eating marabou storks that are taller than me. And these miniature elephant-like creatures, they're relatives of elephants, they're called stegadons. And on this island, they were so small that they were the size of cows. And there's a reason why we say it was like Lord of the Rings. You know what I mean? This is a fantastical world. It's kind of bonkers. And yeah, when the team first found this skull, people couldn't believe it. It took a really long time to convince some people.

7:54It was basically when they started finding more of these fossils. You know, hundreds of thousands of years apart, they were like, okay, that's not microcephaly. That's not dwarfism. That's a species. But then they went and found on an island in the Philippines, what looks like a second hobbit species. And at this point, you're like, this is why a lot of us are just like, this is the tip of the iceberg. And this is the thing, I wanted to start with that, because it's the tip of the iceberg. Imagine how many Indonesian islands there are. I always think of Sulawesi. You know, what a jewel in the crown for archaeology and paleoarchaeology that they could well be

8:28coming out of there in the coming years. And, you know, what other species they may well find that they've done. It's extraordinary. Yeah, Sulawesi. I mean, right now there's the oldest figurative art that we know of in the world is from Sulawesi. It's absolutely incredible. Some people think it's actually not art that we made. Some people actually think it's Denisovan's made that art. There's a wild boar there as well. It's like a, that's the first figurative art. The warty pigs. It's, you know, it's wild. It's, yeah, it's an absolutely incredible thing. I think it's so hard for us to get our heads around. But I think for me, the, the thing that I'm, I'm really keen for people to kind of understand

9:04is that this was a world of many and now we're the only ones left. And in that world of many, they were the specialists. They were the experienced ones. They were the ones that were really well adapted. We weren't. We were the new kid on the block. And it wasn't like we were the new kid on the block and we were exceptional and like, you know, we turned up and it was written in the stars. You know, it was, it was obvious that we were going to inherit the earth, so to speak. There was none of that. We, we were pretty average to start off with. But the classic image you get, isn't it, and I think you can actually even see it on

9:38the ancients logo, if you look closely enough, is the image. First off, you have a chimp, then you have someone slightly bigger and then bigger and then almost hunched over and then stuff. And it's like kind of one species after another and you slowly get less ape-like and more like a modern human. And this idea that one species came after the other and then they just got more and more advanced as time goes on. We've got to throw that in the bin, don't we? Yeah. Yeah. So that is called the March of Progress, or a lot of people just know it as the descent of man image. I always argue that I have two problems with that particular image.

10:10The first is that there are no women on it. And it's not that, I love men, it's not that, often to my detriment, let me tell you. But it's not that, it's that of all the things in the world, that is the one thing that men were not doing on their own, like procreating. It's like, you know, when you're just like, come on guys. And then the second issue that I have with that particular image is that it gives the impression that evolution is linear. That species A goes to species B, species A disappears, goes extinct. And it's just not

10:41the case. In fact, human evolution now we understand is like some kind of a crazy, crazy-ass bush tree. Like it's just this thing that nobody really understands. And we're actually having massive debates about, is that even a species? Well, we don't know. Maybe it's a hybrid, maybe it's this, maybe it's that, you know. And nobody can even agree on what a species is. Is that a can of worms that we can tackle? What is a species? Yeah. And I think it's worth doing that because I think it confuses a lot of people. And if it makes you feel any better, all the lovely listeners out there and viewers, join the club. None of us

11:14know what a species is. But I think that there's a reason for that. So basically, we were taught at school the biological species concept. That whole idea that, you know, a mule, basically, so a horse and a donkey get together. They have offspring, but the offspring is infertile. That is a biological species concept. That is one of over 20 species concepts. So once you get to university and you're studying taxonomy and speciation, you realise that actually biologists can't agree on what a species is. And that's why there are so many different species concepts.

11:47And the truth is, species don't really exist. It is just a, you know, we are trying to put borders and definitions and parameters on nature. And nature knows no parameters and borders, right? And so it's a useful tool, but we should understand it for what it is, which is pretty loose. Because we have covered in our last chat, clear evidence Neanderthals and humans had sex. But I think as we'll explore other figures like the Denisovans today, there's also evidence of

12:19interbreeding Neanderthal Denisovans, Denisovans, Homo sapiens as well. And so that is where it does start getting, really blurs the lines, doesn't it? Yeah, it really, really does. And it's interesting because I think a lot of people now know about the Neanderthal interbreeding with us because a lot of people have done their DNA and they know that they've got, you know, a little bit of Neanderthal DNA in them. But I think there's this really interesting narrative that's come up. God, I even heard Neil deGrasse Tyson the other day saying, oh, well, you know, Africans are, God, I'm paraphrasing him, but it was something like, oh, Africans are the purer Homo sapiens because those outside of Africa have interbred with these

12:53other species of human. And the funny thing is, that's actually incorrect because not only do we know that there is a little bit of Neanderthal DNA in sub-Saharan Africans just because of back migration. And what I mean by that is that, yes, the interbreeding happened outside of Africa in all likelihood, but some people kind of went back into Africa. But, and this is a really important thing, a lot of us were looking at this going, there's a lot of human species and we keep finding new human species. And there is this thing where we seem to constantly just be having sex with each

13:24other. So, and a lot of us were like, we think there was probably interbreeding within sub-Saharan Africa with an ancient species. And shockingly, a team actually uncovered that some modern day West Africans have a signature of what we call a ghost lineage. So a ghost lineage is when you're, you're analysing DNA and you can see a very clear intrusion or what we call introgression of foreign DNA

13:56into the genome that does not belong to sapiens. It belongs to somebody else, but they don't have the source material. With Neanderthals, they have the source material, right? With Neanderthals, we've got a Neanderthal genome. With Denisovans, we've got a Denisovan genome. We've got a few of them, right? But we just don't have whoever this ghost lineage is. So I think it's Yoruba and a few others from West Africa. There is a signature of an ancient species who, and we're like, what species is that? We don't know who they are yet. Yeah. So some of the guys behind Naledi,

14:27the discovery of Homo Naledi, some of those guys are like, oh, maybe it's Naledi because Naledi is in South Africa, but it could be Heidelbergensis. We know there was Heidelbergensis still in Africa at that time. Or it could be another species we don't even know about. But yeah. So even if you are from sub-Saharan Africa, you will possibly have some alien DNA in you like the rest of us. Well, I think this is a fun time then to start a meet the team or meet the tour, meet the family or a quick tour of humanity. Who's your favourite then? Go on. My favourite is the one we're starting with because it feels

15:01like the granddaddy, you know, the most successful species of all time. Homo erectus. Homo erectus. And it is, I mean, what a record. Almost two million years it was on this earth. It is really, really impressive. And I think it's such a diverse species. It's both geographically diverse because they existed all over the old world. By the time we turned up, certainly by around 300,000 years ago, we think they were really only in the Far East. And they were so different, as you would expect, I guess, that some people actually think they're two species. So some people think it's Homo erectus

15:35and there's Homo ergaster, who are the African version of them. I think these days, most of us are like, just, it's probably just all Homo erectus. And it isn't the first species of Homo, but I think the species that came before erectus, you could argue some of them were still in the trees. There's good old Habilis. Yeah. Like Habilis, there's a big discussion about, was Habilis only on two legs or were they sometimes in the trees. You get to erectus. Erectus was a biped and was really only a biped.

16:07Obviously making stone tools, but so it was Habilis, to be fair. And some of the species before then. The first species that we know of to leave Africa, although people need to stop discovering stuff because there's been a few suggestions of stuff, but let's just not focus on that at all in the last few weeks, shall we say. But yeah, still early days on that stuff. So yeah, the first species of hominin that we think of, or that we think has left Africa is incredibly successful. And so I think that's also, you know, that descent of man image that you mentioned, the March of Progress. You've got to imagine that that basically means that

16:41the species, like three species ago on that line is still around at the same time as others, which is part of the reason why that image just doesn't work anymore. Yeah. But it is such, is it controversial to say that I prefer Homo erectus to Neanderthals? I mean, I'm surprised by that, I think. What, how come? It's just more the fact... What's wrong with you? I like, as an outsider in, first of all, I always like bucking the trend. Yeah. But we did an interview a couple of years ago with John McNabb from Southampton University. Yeah.

17:11And what I remember, hopefully they got the video footage showing it. He sold you on it, didn't he? But he took out the handaxe and he said, the fact that you find this tool, whether it's in Southeast Asia or Africa or whatever, Homo erectus had the cognitive ability that they knew how to create this pretty difficult object, unlike the older annulomecri tools from previous humans. And they could then pass it down through generations. And then he was saying, he's like, this was the mobile phone of the time. But that technological

17:44leap that he associated and having that handaxe tool and just the whole time period and the geographic extent of them. I feel like Homo erectus deserves its due. It's time in the sun as well. It really, you know, and it doesn't... I think the thing with Homo erectus, bless it, also, I think for a lot of the public, obviously, they just remember the friend's joke, which I get. And it is really funny. And obviously, from the Latin, erectus just means erect. And it is kind of... I get the funniness of it. I think that is part of the reason, bless why they haven't quite

18:16had their gene. But I think the problem with erectus is probably that they're so old that we don't have as much kind of granular detail on them like we have with the Neanderthals or some of the later species. And so we kind of have a lot of certain, like, interesting anatomical quirks. And we kind of know that they were probably manipulating fire. But we just don't have the stories. And part of the reason you don't have the stories is just because you kind of... you need better resolution to have stories. Like with Neanderthals, we've got just insane resolution at this point. Just

18:51because you know what it's like. The fossil record kind of gets worse and worse and worse the deeper in time you get. This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever think about switching insurance companies to see if you could save some cash? Progressive makes it easy to see if you could save when you bundle your home and auto policies. Try it at Progressive.com. Progressive casualty insurance company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states.

19:23As the saying goes, if these walls could talk. And on the Betwixt the Sheets podcast, we make it our business to discover what happened behind closed doors. And even more importantly, in the bedrooms of people all throughout history. Kings, queens, mistresses, servants, and everyone in between. We also get up close and personal with medieval aphrodisiacs, lethal Victorian makeup routines, and look at the scandalous lives of beloved children's authors. Nothing is

19:53off limits. In other words, it's the best bits of history. With me, Dr. Kate Lister. Listen to Betwixt the Sheets, the history of sex scandal in society, twice a week, every week, wherever it is that you get your podcasts. Brought to you by the award-winning network, History Hit. Well, let's move on to the next one I've got, which is, it seems to be the bit more disputed

20:30one, but Homo heidelbergensis. I used to think Homo heidelbergensis. I used to think, there we go. If that makes anyone feel any better, even I can't say it. Homo heidelbergensis. I used to just feel very comfortable with, basically. I was like, great, Homo heidelbergensis is the common ancestor of us and the Neanderthals. Everybody go home. We were just kind of conveniently ignoring that it was quite an inconsistent species. Do you know what I mean? It just seemed like a dumping ground for a lot of other species, or for a lot of fossils that

21:03didn't necessarily make sense. It felt more like a time period, if I'm to be honest, than an actual cohesive species. What time period, roughly, was it associated with? So, I mean, to be fair, they called it the muddle in the middle, which it kind of, middle Paleolithic, just, I mean, obviously there are other species in that period as well, but it's just, it's kind of, I mean, technically, even more recently than 300,000 years, they were around. But obviously, for a few hundred thousand years, I guess it depends where you judge it from, but like 400,000 years, yes, I think 500,000 years as well. Like it's, yeah,

21:35it's that muddle in the middle where everybody just goes, we don't know what to do with this. And then increasingly, I often refer to Chris Stringer, Professor Chris Stringer, desperately tried to use him on all of our projects as our main consultant. And it was interesting actually, because we shot, we started shooting human, and I was using the term Heidelbergensis, knowing that he wasn't 100% okay with it. And it went to him, and he was like, guys, you just got to dump it now. Just got to dump it now. Yeah, he goes, you got to be careful, because he goes, it's just, the way you're using it,

22:10he goes, just be careful, because it's not, because I wasn't just referring to it as like, put my head up against this species, I was referring to it in the ancestral, our common ancestor, our likely common ancestor with Neanderthals. And being that he was one of the people that was kind of putting that forward, that forward, that theory, the fact that he was kind of going, like, rethink it, we actually went back and re-edited a scene, so that I was no longer saying that, because we just thought, we'd like this show to be scientifically kind of relevant for at least two years. So yeah, so Heidelbergensis is something, whether

22:45it's one species or several, it will probably end up being one or two species. And the common ancestor between Neanderthals, Denisovans, and us, we still don't really know? No, no clue. No idea, no clue at all. Yeah, no clue at this point. Should we talk about Denisovans? Yeah. Yeah, come on, because they deserve time in the spotlight as well, don't they? So set the scene, Denisovans, whereabouts are we thinking in the world? Okay, so have you guys done an, you must have done an episode on Denisovans? Kind of. And it involves Tibet, and the handprints up in the Tibetan plateau, which I'm sure might

23:23get to. Yeah, so I think the thing, the reason why a lot of us feel incredibly excited about Denisovans is not just that we now call them Dragon Man as well, which just, come on, man. But it's that it was the holy grail of paleoanthropology. You know, I remember articles being written in actually calling it the holy grail of paleoanthropology. And that's because, similar to The Hobbit, it was completely unexpected. So you've got to imagine, 20 years ago, even 15 years ago, we thought we kind of knew the landscape. And then we realised we really

23:54didn't know much. And so the landscape was generally like, Homo sapiens in Africa, Neancetals in Europe, Homo erectus in East Asia. I mean, we were still kind of debating if Homo erectus, and the dates, because I will say, the dates in the Far East are very controversial. So I would say, 20 years ago, people were open to it, but we weren't as confident as we are today. So then what happened was, the incredible team at the Max Planck Institute, that's where Svante Paba, who won the Nobel Prize for sequencing the Neanderthal genome, along with other things,

24:29I guess. His team were basically trying to extract Neanderthal DNA off anything they could find, basically, at this point. A tiny little finger bone, it was absolutely tiny, was found in a cave in Siberia, in Russia, called the Nisiva Cave. They crushed it up. They were like, great, let's get some Neanderthal DNA out of it. And they actually extracted some Neanderthal DNA only upon examination. It wasn't a Neanderthal, but it was human, but it wasn't Homo sapiens. And it was just explosive, because they had realised they had accidentally stumbled

25:00upon a whole new human species. And it was bonkers, because they had, they got to the point very, very quickly, where they had the whole genome of this species sequenced to really high resolution, and yet had no idea what the species looked like. And that, I cannot express this enough, has never happened before, and is not generally the way one does this kind of thing. Usually, you find a fossil, and then you spend forever trying to extract its DNA, right? That's what they're doing with The Hobbit, for example, and that's what they're

25:32doing with Homo naledi. They're desperately trying to extract DNA, because it would kind of be handy to know exactly where these fellas fell. Fellas and ladettes, I should say. And as they were, yeah, as they were looking at this DNA, they were like, okay, so we've effectively now in a position where we have this species' DNA sequenced. We now know as a result, all these things. For example, they realised that they were really closely related to the Neanderthals, to the point where some paleoanthropologists would actually argue that they're Asian Neanderthals.

26:02They realised that they were incredibly closely related to us. They realised that Tibetans have mutations that are very unique, that mean that the mechanism by which they are able to live at high altitude is different to the mechanism that other people living today are able to live at high altitude. It's a completely different mechanism. And that mechanism is from Denisovans. I love that fact. It's so interesting. It's actually the best case that we have of really positive introgression into our genome that's very easy to explain. And then another team actually went and found these, well,

26:36they were actually sequencing these tiny little shards of bone from that same cave, Denisovacave. And they were what you call undiagnostic bone. And for the archaeologists listening, you kind of know what undiagnostic bone is. It's where on an archaeological site or in an archaeological site, in an assemblage, sometimes you find these little bits of shards of bone and you're like, well, that could be human, that could be cave bear, that could be a bird. We've got no idea. You bag them because you always have hope as an archaeologist that somebody will invent this incredible technology that will tell you what it is. But mostly those just stay in bags in museums or like these sites and, you know, they're just labelled. But they

27:11started going through them. It was actually, I think, a PhD student. And she went through it and she realised she was using this incredible technology called Zoom MS. And she realised that actually it was human. And then they sent it for DNA testing. Turned out it was a girl who they nicknamed Denny. And she was half Neanderthal, half Denisovan. So they were at the point where they had a hybrid. They'd found a hybrid. Like nobody had found a hybrid of anything before, of any human species. They found a hybrid and they still had no idea what the species looked like. And that's why people were saying it's the holy grail of paleoanthropology.

27:41We need to know what this species looks like. And there was lots of whispers, like loads of people were like, we think a lot of the Eastern material, a lot of the material in the Far East is Denisovan and it's mislabeled. Is this where we get the name, the legendary name, Dragon Man? Well, you would think because there's a lot of human material in that area does get called dragon this and dragon that. And just as a side, like this is completely side shoot here, but it's just a fascinating detail. It was sometimes ground up. Some of those teeth that

28:16are ancient human teeth were sometimes ground up for Chinese medicine and they were referred to as dragon teeth and what have you. So it's just a fascinating kind of little detail. The story goes that in China during World War II, when it was Japanese occupied, that a gentleman had found this skull. It was quite a big skull, the Harbin skull. We call it the Harbin skull. And he got concerned because the place was Japanese occupied. So he hid it at the bottom of the well. And then on his deathbed, he told his kids about it. So 2021, just before

28:49then, I think they gave it to some scientists and the scientists analysed it and they were like, that is a big skull. Like it's a big skull. Like it looks bigger than a Neanderthal. It certainly looks bigger than us. And they basically were like, that's a new species. And they called it Dragon Man, basically. They called it Dragon Man. Now there's two details about this that I think are really funny. One is that wonderful story about the bottom of a well. Yeah, it's great. Yeah, it's been called into question. Oh no.

29:20Like some people are like, we think it was a bit more suspect than that. And that was like a cover up story. The other thing is, it's worth saying that they had found a bit of Tibetan jawbone that they realised was Denisovan a few years earlier and they did the DNA and they were like, so they've got a bit, but it wasn't, you know, a full skull. A full piece, yeah. So people are looking at this full kind of Dragon Man, Homo Longi thing going, oh, come on. What if that's the face of the Denisovans? And then just this summer, they did the DNA analysis and it came back as indeed the face of the Denisovans. But how long has it just

29:53taken me to tell that story? That is the mystery of the Denisovans. But it's great. You did the story of the Justice though, because it's the same time that people think- But I'm tired. I need a break. Do you know what I mean? Okay, stop now. Right. But that's how amazing it is. Like that's the kind of, like hundreds of incredible academics putting work in to unwrap a mystery that is like, you know, almost two decades old. I mean, that story. And then you see the replicas of that skull today. Actually, we have done

30:23an episode with Chris on it. And first of all, the replica skull, which is green, which I like, is hilarious. Yeah, that's because it's his, what was that in a 3D? Yeah, I think so. What do you call it? A 3D printer? Yeah, but it's incredible. And it gives you the size of the cranium. The fact that it's that new story, the link to Tibet today and explaining why they can live at such high altitudes with this species as well. And yes, normally you think, you know, big skulls or you think of like the Neanderthals, but actually then you've got the Denisovan cousins as well with even bigger ones. So it's just, it's, it's fascinating and it's developing all the

30:57time. Yeah, a hundred percent. We did cover the Neanderthals quite a lot in our last episode, but of course they are in the picture. Yeah. Some a hundred thousand years ago as well. And at that time, although they still, they've been around for a long time by them, but they're still doing incredibly well, aren't they? They are. They are. They're an incredibly successful species. They were hanging on in Europe and in Central Asia in climates where we weren't surviving. You know, we'd have to leg it out of there or we were becoming locally extinct. We're never a hundred percent sure if we migrated out of there because it got too difficult. We just disappeared. But yeah, we couldn't make it

31:31there. But it's kind of funny in the context of all these other species. In some ways, the Neanderthals are the most demure. Do you know what I mean? It's partly, I think, because so many paleoanthropologists, Europe is our backyard. So we have ended up digging here and people know the landscape and, and, and, you know, there's, there's obviously the history of paleoanthropology started, I guess, a bit more in Europe. I mean, it was also happening in Africa, obviously as well, but it helps explain, you know, there's some fascinating stuff going on in the Far East that we're only just starting to understand. And part of that

32:04is what you would call bias. Like it's not in a, an intentional way. I just mean like that's where the researchers are, you know? And also, quite frankly, the interest is there for a popular audience. If you say Neanderthal on the podcast today, there is a lot of interest in the Western world straight away because of that recognition. Absolutely. But what's really interesting right now is in the Far East, people are also really interested in human origins. Good, good. But also partly that's because there's this narrative that maybe humanity started from here. Right. Yeah. But that's what we always do. Like we always, I know this to be very common,

32:37like wherever you find something that's like, ah, therefore then humanity must have started here. Well, shall we now go back to Africa and a country that even has a place called the Cradle of Humankind. But I don't think this was found at that location, but it was nearby, wasn't it? The species you mentioned earlier, fascinating one, Homo naledi. Yes. You mentioned how when the Hobbit was discovered, a lot of disbelief when that was found. Yeah. Same thing with Homo naledi. Yeah. So Homo naledi was found by two amateur cavers. They were amateur cavers at the time

33:10that have become a lot more professional since then. And they basically stumbled upon, hey, what? Because it is in a place where there are so many human fossils. It's actually, I believe it's actually part of, it was already part of the UNESCO World Heritage Site. The Cradle of Humankind. Yeah. They found another one of the humankind, basically. And they found like a bunch of fossils. They took it to Professor Lee Berger, who's based out there and was based at Wits University. And they basically, I think they teamed up with National Geographic as well. And they basically started this massive excavation project that also had this quite kind of full

33:45on media component. And they did a number of things. One is that they did something quite revolutionary, actually. They opened up the fossils to everyone. I think it's fair to say the biggest criticism of our field is that we hold onto fossils like they're a treasure that nobody else is allowed to touch within the field. It's a real problem. I think there are serious ethical issues with it because it basically means that some of the most famous, most important fossils in our history, which I would think should be owned by all of us, or at least we should all have

34:17scientific access to of some kind, are behind lock and key. And nobody can get to other than the researcher that's found them and one or two people that they allow in. What the team behind the leddies Discovery did is they basically completely opened it up. They were like, it's open. You want to come research? We're going to make it straightforward for you. Part of the reason, though, why they did that is, yes, they're kind of revolutionary in their thinking, but also it's because they had so many fossils. They had so many fossils that I think they

34:49wanted help understanding what on earth they were looking at. You've got to understand they were found in this cave. And this cave system is quite difficult to get to. This particular bit of the cave is quite difficult to get to. And there's not much else in there. So if it was a, if it was, for example, because let's say a flood or a bear or some kind of carnivore was taking homeowner leddy in, this human species in, you would expect them to also be taking other food. Or if it was a flood, you would expect

35:23other bones, other animals to also, it's pretty much just homeowner leddy. It's very difficult to give an interpretation to that other than burial, that they were intentionally put there basically by their peers. But this homeowner leddy is a tiny species, not as small as as the hobbit, but small. And they've got small brains. And traditionally, we have been told and we understand that burial, you know, I mean, we see animals mourn for other animals. We've all seen

36:00videos of elephants and, you know, really kind of incredible behaviours. But burial isn't just an emotional behaviour. It's a behaviour at a different level. Like, you know, when you think about what burial is, yes, they might not believe in an afterlife. I'm not saying that. But burial is not something that is associated with a small brain. And you've got them doing burial. And a lot of us now just think that's burial. It was really controversial when it first came out. But I think we're at the point where it's like, oh, guys, it does look like burial.

36:33I remember that. I remember that. There were lots of people, there was a lot of pushback at the start saying, we just need more proof. We need to analyse the... But that's the beauty of as time goes on, having that scientific technology. Yeah, it looks pretty, pretty clear now. And we think 100,000 years old or less than... Yeah, I mean, so, so basically 100,000. I mean, it depends how you look at it, but certainly around 300,000, they were still around. They're probably still, they were probably still around 100,000 as well, as I remember the last estimate. It's the same time as modern humans in Africa. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. A nice little bit of overlap.

37:06I can't remember when exactly they ended. I should probably check that. But yeah, but certainly 300,000 years when we were there, they were, they were around. Yeah. Insurance isn't one size fits all. That's why drivers have enjoyed Progressive's Name Your Price tool for years now. With the Name Your Price tool, you tell them what you want to pay, and they'll show you options that fit your budget. So, whether you're picking out your first policy, or just looking for something that works better for you and your family, they make it easy to see

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38:51So those are some of the other big species. So it's kind of useful to think about this for a second. So you've got us, obviously, you've got the Neanderthals, you've got the Denisovans, you've got Homo erectus, you've got Homo heidelbergensis, even though we're not 100% sure if it's a true species, but there's something going on there. You've got Homo naledi. Did I already say the hobbit? No. We mentioned it earlier, Homo floresiensis. Floresiensis. You've got the second, what we think, hobbit-like species, Homo luzonensis. Luzonensis, yeah. So you're looking at eight human species that were contemporaneous with us. The magnificent eight.

39:29But here's the really, really interesting thing. If that ghost lineage that is in those West Africans is not Lenedi and it's not Heidelbergensis, that means that there were nine species. At least. Yes, contemporaneous. At least. At least, at the time. And once again, so that ghost species is the one that could be our ancestor? So in West Africans, some populations of West Africans, there is a signature of an ancient species

40:02that intergressed, that kind of, its DNA kind of came into ours, our homo sapien DNA. It's alien DNA, but we call it a ghost lineage because we don't have the source. So if, like with the Neanderthal DNA in ours, we know it's 2%, but we would never call that ghost lineage because we know the source of it. Whereas we call it a ghost because we're like, whoo, we have no idea who you are. Like, why are you? Show yourself. If you take nothing away from today, viewers and listeners, can I just suggest it's the term ghost lineages?

40:34Right. I mean, that is very, very cool. We've covered everything from ghost lineages to Dragon Man. Yeah. And more. High five. Well done. Yes. I've got to ask. If there was at least eight or nine lineages, well, species 100,000 years ago, we talked in the last episode about, you know, larger genetic variation, bigger groups, homo sapiens, how they can beat the Neanderthals ultimately and they go extinct. But with all the the others, is it just quite a big element of luck? Were we lucky that we ended up being the people on top at the end?

41:07I think there was a little bit of luck, but I don't think it was just luck. I just don't, I don't see how it could have just been luck. I think, I've said this to you before, but I think if you put like 100 paleoanthropologists in a room, we would all disagree on exactly what it is. But I think it's fair to say all of those other species were incredibly successful, had been around a lot longer than us. And now they're obviously not here. I think for each of those species, there were a number of factors involved and the factors could be slightly different. So for example, it is hard to argue that the hobbit homo floresiensis was not affected by volcanic eruptions.

41:41Like it does look like there was basically like continuous volcanic activity that seemed quite intense. But I think a lot of paleoanthropologists consider us to be the final nail in the coffin to a lot of species. And I think what's happening there is that we have, in my opinion, we have a brain that is primed to be incredibly cooperative. We are hyper, hyper social. And by that, I mean, we bond a lot as a species. I know people really struggle with that because they see us as this

42:14like warmongering species. And I'm not saying we're not, trust me. I'm just saying, and this is dark, but war technically is cooperation. It's just cooperation with your species against another species. And by nature, we are incredibly, incredibly social. You might not realize it, but music, dancing, ritual, they're all behaviors, which are a lot of us would argue very inbuilt into us. That are there primarily for bonding purposes. They really help bonding. There's some fascinating

42:45experiments on this. There's like, oh God, there's a silent disco experiment. There's like all kinds of experiments where they show that people really bond. Like people even report higher pain thresholds after dancing with complete strangers in a synchronized manner. I think this stuff is deeply embedded within us. Like even ritual, ritual is, you know, we could, I don't know, do everything from our sofa, but we insist on doing it in a group and like doing this ceremony and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and all the rest of it. And I think when you've got a species that's

43:19that hyper social, that cooperative, and that has a brain that's plastic that likes to copy each other, that is a recipe for invention. And then if you have a lot of that species, you've got gold dust. And what that effectively means is that all those other species, yes, they have technology. They're smart. They have technology. They're inventing technology, but they are not able to invent technology in the way that we're able to invent technology. And importantly, they are kind of

43:51restricted by their physical anatomy. So for example, the Hobbit is really well adapted to that island. The island starts changing too much. They don't necessarily, they kind of got to wait for their biology to pick up the right mutations to evolve. We invent the technology.

44:11And we just seem to do it time and time again. We see something and we're like, we'll just invent the technology. You know, we couldn't, we, we got to a point and we didn't start off like this, but it gets to a point when cumulative culture just kind of accelerates. We got to a point where we would just look at a landscape that a lot of other species might see as a barrier, like for example, an open ocean or a rainforest. And we would look at it and go, right, let's invent some technology for this. Let's invent a raft. Let's, you know, invent the right kind of weapons to deal with a rainforest. I don't think those other species quite had that.

44:42What a way to finish that. It's a story and a half about us ending up the last species. And to think, as you said, right at the beginning, this is in the minority compared to the most of time with the story of humans that actually we're in a time when we are just the humans left, or are we? Can I just interject with one thing there? So if let's say we've been around for 300,000 years, the Neanderthals went extinct, we think about 40,000 years ago. There's a suggestion that the Denisovans were still kicking around maybe 25,000 years ago. Do you know what I mean? We've only been

45:18alone for 25,000. And knowing our luck, they'll find a species that was knocking around like 15,000 years ago. But we know, 25,000 years, that is a tiny, tiny, tiny, bloody window of us being the only species around. Robert Leonard Ella, this has been absolutely fantastic. And with the speed of all these new discoveries, new research, new science, within two years, we'll have so much more to talk about. I'll be back in two days, actually. I'm like, oh, God. Robert Leonard But it is just such an exciting field. And it has been such a pleasure to have you on the show.

45:49Thank you so much for having me, honestly. It's so much fun just to be able to talk about all this stuff. And also, I have to say, with an audience as well, who I don't have to, you know, do you know what I mean? Like, I can just actually talk about this stuff without having to... Yes, thank you. I'm allowed to nerd out as much as I want. This is the space for nerding out. That's what we want. Thank you, Ella. Thank you.

46:11Well, there you go. There was the paleoanthropologist Ella Al-Shamahi, introducing you to several key early humans that co-existed alongside us on planet earth tens, if not hundreds of thousands of years ago. Thank you so much for listening to this episode of The Ancients. I hope you enjoyed it. Now, if you have been enjoying the show, please make sure to follow us on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. That really helps us. You'll be doing us a big favor. If you'd be kind enough to leave us a rating as well, well, we'd really appreciate that. Don't forget, you can also sign up to History Hit for hundreds

46:44of hours of original documentaries with a new release every week. Sign up at historyhit.com slash subscribe. That's all from me. I'll see you in the next episode.

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48:32Thank you.

49:02Thank you.

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50:02Thank you.