Cat Rossi and Charles Holland: Design as method and object.

Introducing the Harvest project

0:00Hello. This episode of the A is for Architecture podcast features a brace of professors. Kat Rossi and Charles Holland, both of UCA and Charles, founder director of Charles Holland Architects. We met in the flesh in the English port town of Dover, the first in-person recording I've done, so forgive me if it's a bit textured, to discuss their projects Harvest from 2025 and the ongoing Harvest Moon, a round table cast and lashed from waste, harvested within a 40-mile radius of Canterbury and co-produced from the winter of 2025 and ongoing, with local work studio Steffi Klens and Stephen Knott of the Crafts Studies Centre.

0:35The Harvest projects are framed by the designer-maker's awareness of climate and organised around a recurring question. What do we gather, harvest and give thanks for today? It proposes, after its manner, reconnection through design with growing, seasonality and the harvesting of materials and the cultures, behaviours and rituals that may descend from them. Much is said about processes and programming of space as prerequisites for sustaining interventions. It's not now enough just to make a thing without consideration of the activities it sits within and produces. A table needs a meal, needs a crowd, needs grace, needs a toast.

1:08The table, then, is a curatorial format, as Kat puts it.

1:14A is for Architecture, a podcast about architecture, buildings, urban culture and space.

Meet Kat Rossi and Charles Holland

1:19Hello and welcome to another episode of the A is for Architecture podcast. I'm delighted to be talking in person, for the first time ever, with Professor Kat Rossi and Professor Charles Holland. Morning. It is the morning. Thanks ever so much for doing this. We're going to be talking about your project, Harvest. And it's a table, but it's more than a table. It's a piece of material culture, I suppose. And I wanted to understand the project better as the by-product of an architect, Charles, and a design historian, you, Kat.

1:51And sort of where it comes from, both practically, what it is, and where it comes from in your design thinking, your theoretical thinking and considerations. But before we do that, shall we do some introductions? Okay. My name is Kat Rossi, and I'm a design historian and Professor of Architecture at UCA Canterbury. And in headline terms, I guess I'm bringing to the table, I can't not make that terrible joke, an interest in the history of craft and the kind of relevance of craft ideas today.

2:26And an interest as a design historian in curating and thinking about being around a table as much as the design of a table itself. That's probably enough for now. Yeah, I'm Charles Hollands, I'm an architect, and I'm also a professor of architecture at UCA, alongside Kat. And this is a part of an ongoing research project, I guess, that we've been working on, which we'll talk a little bit more about.

2:59But for me, what's super interesting about it, I guess, is it's moved into the realm of designing and making as part of a research project. So the making of this table is a piece of research in itself, which is perhaps the first time I've been involved in such a kind of combination of making, designing, researching, and thinking about design and architecture and materials.

Origins of the harvest concept

3:30So how did it come to be, this combination of you two, other than propinquity, other than the fact that you share breathing space at work? Yeah, there were a few different origins into the table as a particular artifact that we'll come on to describing in a minute. And one pathway in is that we, so this has become part of what we're calling an overarching research, knowledge exchange, community engagement, and commercialization project to tick all the academic boxes that we're calling Harvest.

4:04And Harvest originated as a day-long harvest festival organized for the Folkestone Triennial in 2025. And Folkestone is a town in the southeast of England, very near to where we are currently and very near to our university. And building on a series of salons that we've organized the last two or three years that try to use one word to think about something that's going on in design and architecture today, we came to this word harvest, that we see as describing a few things, but one of the things it describes, or some of the things it describes, is around designers and architects and artists.

4:42Thinking about materials that might be biomaterials, but a proximity to the ground in some way, with working with crops, for example, with designing houses that are in the fields where crops are grown. So very much a kind of rural, agricultural, seasonal way of working, but also harvesting that might be about urban mining, for example, so working with construction waste. So a sort of sense of a set of defined conditions within which one draws one's material.

5:14Does that make sense? Yeah, yeah, absolutely, yeah. I think, as Kat says, we were running the school's public program, and this idea, in a way, evolved into sort of almost like a kind of curriculum of like, what are the key words facing kind of architecture and design? So we had a series of shallons, one on energy, one on money, one on earth, one on the rural, and harvest emerged from that.

5:49And as Kat says it, first of all, we did a little off-site salon talk at the folks in Trianium. And then a series of, we did a series of essays and posters, which we're working with our colleague, Steffi, Clint, at UCA. So it does sort of develop different kind of aspects. But I guess what, yeah, it seems really important is that bringing, I guess, a slightly separate but adjacent disciplines, like as a designer historian and as a designer, to move some of these conversations about what we think architecture and design education should be fundamentally addressing into projects,

6:30so then start to enact and explore that physically, but also through networks of people and conversations and research in the broadest sense. So this project emerged out of that as a way of essentially exploring and testing what Kat's talked about in terms of materials, material provenance, making, looking at where, very closely and in depth at where materials come from

7:02and what the sort of supply chain is and what the process is and when do they become available and from who and how. And then a kind of interest in language, I think, as well is very important. Like it's, we talk quite a lot about, I guess, a sort of demonstrator model of like projects, which were essentially trying to demonstrate a technique or a material process. We definitely wanted this project, the table, to be more than that. It's not simply demonstrating a process. It's exploring a language of its own, a sort of design quality and material quality,

7:34techniques of making, so it's not simply saying, oh, you can make things out of waste materials or biomaterials, but what is the language that those things can become? What have designers always done, which is to give things physical material form, which express the kind of concerns and motives of making them. So with this, we work with Local Works, who are a key partner in the project and ongoing and a follow-on project from this. And Local Works are a Sussex-based design-making studio focused on circular material processes.

8:10They're working on a lot of super interesting projects, including the new Museum of Design in Ghent. Yeah, they designed the Ghent brick using waste from within, I think, 50 kilometres of the city. They work with Assembl on a series of projects. Yeah, working on a new project with Assembl, which is using incredibly locally sourced materials. So Local Works are, you know, a kind of leading thinkers and makers in regenerative materials and circular processes.

8:41So we work with them, they've got this workshop in Sussex, and then we worked with a number of, well, in particular, two local kind of agricultural businesses that supplied all the materials. And there's quite a lot, I think, that's interesting to say about the process. It's quite involved. But part of the process was a completely sort of open-ended, collaborative way of working, which is like, as an architect, I'm incredibly used to starting with a concept, drawing it to the nth degree, and then having it made.

9:23And hoping that the thing that's made resembles the drawing as closely as possible. This is like completely unpacked, that process. There's no drawing at the beginning. There's no kind of, okay, it's going to be this. There's no separation between making and designing and thinking and the various things that go into it. We had those conversations in an ad hoc, in the here and now, this is what we've got on the table kind of way. Like, we've got this bit of wood to talk more about the materials and stuff. So I think that's really interesting in terms of the design process as well, especially if you're engaged in a, yeah, what's the language of this and how do we evolve that language?

10:01Which isn't a pre-formed language. I mean, obviously, we all brought lots of things to it and visual, conceptual references. But it wasn't like, oh, we've got a language of how to make this table. Should we talk about what the table looks like? Yeah. I think this is rather necessary. I do want to come back to that. I do want to come back to this idea of the research by design, which I think is a really important thing and valuable. And I do like this idea of the vernacular that you're touching on here with this idea of a kind of late modern vernacular.

Describing the physical table

10:30Well, yeah, let's describe it. Go on. Tell us about the table. It's a large, we're sitting just a metre or so from the table. It's a large, round-ish table made, and the tabletop is made of eight segments of cast chalk and chestnut bark peelings and bits of baling twine and pallet straps, which are introducing a bit of colour that we'll come back to.

11:03So they're not reinforcement? No, no, no, no. The chalk and the chestnut bark peelings, and I think some straw in there as well, are holding it all together. It's got what we like to think of as a flan-like profile, which has been generated through a cast that has got corrugated iron edge. So that's how you get this kind of frilly edge to it.

11:33So another kind of found material. And then the segments sit on top of the central pillar, which is a chestnut tree trunk with a round, sort of thick central piece of chestnut on top. And then supporting it are eight legs, which are the sort of most unusual and kind of materially inefficient legs, one could imagine, which are upside down apple trees, trunks, which, so the kind of branches are really holding the table legs onto the floor.

12:16And they are connected to the central leg with a chestnut paling post. So the sort of straight lengths of chestnut. Chestnut pegs? Or are they apple tree? Apple tree pegs. Apple tree pegs. And then again, we're using, it's actually a color coordinated system of baling twine and pallet straps and a rather lovely hues of oranges, purples, blue and green, which hold the different elements together.

12:48So the apple trees largely stand up on their own, but actually in some cases are a bit wobbly. So we've used chestnut lengths to kind of fix them in place. So it's, it's quite something to describe. And I should say on the, on the top, we've got these, each of the eight segments has a small circle of dyed chestnut. It's been dyed with oak gall and the oak gall, which is kind of blackish in color, has been slightly rubbed off on each one to talk, to represent the phases of the moon as it goes around, which is where the harvest moon comes from.

13:22Ah, I get it. And when you said large, I don't think you do it justice. What is it? It's about three and a half meters across. It's 2.6 in diameter, but it is pretty hefty and it has quite a lot of presence. It does have a lot of presence. 2.6, okay.

Assembly rituals and musical performance

13:41Yeah.

Assembly rituals and musical performance

13:42And crucially, when it arrives in, so that the table is, was always designed with a life, with programming around it. And this is its second home. And when it arrives in its new home, it arrives in, in parts. So those eight tabletop segments, for example, the legs are all separated out. And we host what we call a harvest gathering, which is a kind of curatorial format where participants are invited to assemble the table, guided by a steward, whose role is to kind of take care of the process.

14:20And we are there too. So far we've been, Charles and I have been there overseeing this process. And once the table has been completed, which can take up to about an hour, half an hour, an hour, we also commissioned a piece of music called Harvest Moon. That has so far been played in a kind of folk, electro-folk manner, and also in a jazz flute style. And that's all about thinking about, we think of the table a bit like a barn raising.

14:53So you have to make the table together, together. And also, like a barn raising, there's a ritual of songs and food and drink that is about a kind of celebrating the making that's gone, or the making that went into the table to make those materials in the first place, but also our collective act of the most inefficient, non-Ikea-like way of putting a piece of furniture together.

15:16Yeah. It's the first project I've been involved in that's involved jazz flute. And indeed, the first project I've been involved in that's involved in a commissioned piece of music. But I think what's really important in what Kat's describing there is there's a whole load of components to it, some of which are physical and some of which are not. And the bits that are not, I guess, are around ideas about sociability and ritual and gathering. So you can talk about the table as a sort of gathering. It gathers materials, hence its relationship to the idea of harvest.

15:49And we can talk a bit more about the provenance of where those materials are gathered from and where we ended up with this particular mix of materials. But it's also about gathering people, clearly, that you can get quite a lot of people around it. But you have to have quite a lot of people to make it and assemble it in the first case. And then it becomes a sort of catalyst for other events to happen around it.

Residency at Dover urban room

16:13So while it's been here, which is in Dover's urban room, you should probably say that urban room is part of a sort of network of spaces that are in towns across the UK, which are intended as kind of urban forums for discussion around architecture and design and questions about, I guess, the sort of town's evolution and future. And this one is in the HQ, I guess, of Dover Arts Development. So Dover Arts Development has the urban room.

16:45And the table's been here for the whole summer. And while it's been here, it's first of all been assembled as an event, which we did with a network of creative people from Dover. And then we've had two further events. One was, both of which are connected with the Artists in Residence programme that happens around the urban room as well. So there were two artists who organised events where the table was sort of central to the evening. And so was an idea of coming together and also food and sharing a sort of convivial attitude to sort of discussion and enjoying a kind of culture of the day or the evening.

17:30So it's about that idea of gathering in lots of different ways. And it exhibits that, I think, in its form. Like gathering is expressed in the way it's made. I.e. that the elements of it, the materials, don't manufacture out the method of how they're put together. Quite the opposite. I mean, looking at it now, going, yeah, I think I can work out how that's put together. Because each of these bits of wood are lashed with various bits of railing twine and there's a peg holding that bit up.

18:05So the language of it expresses the idea of these materials coming together sort of imperfectly in the sense of they retain their character. And their form whilst being adjusted to do these new functions. I think that the point about what it looks like is really important to the things that we talked about. So actually one of the other salons that we organised last year or the year before was called Beauty. And thinking about beauty, but also the place of aesthetics in contemporary design and architecture and in discourse around it.

18:35And I think one of the things that I think both of us have been interested in, in particularly the last few years, in a kind of notable and understandable engagement with biomaterials and languages of craft, if it has a language returning and the natural and the regenerative, is what does that look like? And I really resist the idea that there's a kind of natural language that happens or a kind of logic that comes from using certain materials to the finished artefact.

19:08Because I think that really belies the skills and the knowledge that designers and architects bring to materials. You know, they design things with aesthetic intent, whether it's conscious or not sometimes. And so with this table, which deliberately has bits of pallet straps and baling twine in it, hopefully not too small. We kept them quite large so that when the table eventually biodegrades, because that's the plan, it will go out to pasture. Then we can pull those bits of plastic out and it will hopefully not harm the local environment in some way.

19:41So there's a question about our role in the table. But those artificial materials, I meant to say it's also not a bucolic rural idyll, this table. It's thinking about what's the reality of agricultural industry, but also that language of artifice, as it were, and colour and decoration and pattern also have a place in a world of biomaterial design.

Aesthetics and biomaterial design

20:05Can I add something to that? Yeah. Too much talking in one go. But I think, yeah, for me, that's really important as well. That's a sort of echo there. But I guess it's a question, you know, in design and architecture facing, you know, climate crisis and ecological breakdown. That sort of all bets were off at that point. It's like design doesn't really have any, it would be incredibly indulgent to talk about what something looks like in the face of such a kind of massive challenge.

20:36But of course, everything we do, we make choices about what it is. At any one time, I think, in a kind of, you know, history of architecture design, there are imperatives and challenges and contacts in which people are making things and making choices about what they're made of and how they're made and what they say. So it's really important to be developing the repertoire of these materials beyond the point of simply using them, but to start to invest them in other forms of meaning, which make them desirable, which make them symbolically kind of eloquent.

21:16And I think, you know, there's a question around the design of the table, which also relates to ideas of, you know, symbolism and the decorative. I mean, there's a little set of drawings here on the side, which are also symbols describing the moon cycle, which, as Kat said, is sort of embedded in the pieces of apple tree that you can see around the segments of it. But, you know, I've been reading quite a lot of stuff, but, you know, I've been reading quite a lot of stuff about letter B at the moment and architectural symbolism and some of that stuff is quite wild, but it's fascinating.

21:52And I think it's a sort of attempt of someone trying to deal with, you know, both a sort of history of architectural symbolism and a contemporary reality of making and materiality and emerging technologies. And I think there's a lot of that feeding into it for me personally as well in terms of, yeah, how it articulates itself. Yeah. And then we articulate those, you know, imperatives about what materials we use and, you know, completely different paradigm in terms of how do we get all the materials, where do they come from, how destructive are the processes of extracting them from the ground or harvesting them or, you know, producing them in factories where, you know, all sorts of destructive effects come from that.

22:43So, sort of fundamentally engaging in the sort of provenance of material in that sense, but then trying to work out, you know, what does one do with those materials? So, I do agree with you that the obligation of the designer to be the designer in situations of crisis or of constraint, extreme constraint is something I think in contemporary design, perhaps, certainly in architectural design has been a little bit set aside in favour of economic slash ecological imperatives.

23:18Now, when I was doing my doctorate in India, it was really interesting, I was looking at post-disaster reconstruction and it was really interesting to look at the successful post-disaster housing and the unsuccessful ones. And inevitably, the unsuccessful ones assumed that designerliness was not an important factor in people's lives. And that's not just the aesthetic and the material, but the processes that procure that as well. So, the fact that, for example, in the places I was looking at, the women folk tended to do decorations on their houses, they'd paint their houses and so on and so forth.

23:57And they'd get given a concrete box and there's nothing you can do about it or they'd get given an asbestos shelter or whatever equivalent materials. And actually, design and aesthetics are, as I understood it then, and I think Amos Rapoport in Houseform and Culture talked about this as well, are absolutely central to the process of even engaging with a crisis. So, I think that's a really elegant idea, because it is a very designed object. Well, you see it also in, particularly in UK, RI, so the kind of Research Council funding for design currently, that the emphasis is all about what design can do as a facilitator about design thinking, which isn't a phrase I'm a big fan of.

24:40But then if you look at some of the projects, the really valuable projects that are being funded currently, actually, there's a real care and attention taken to design as an act of creating, engaging, desirable, well-made things within all of those projects. Whether it's the communication material, whether it's other kind of artefacts, whether it's the tools that facilitate conversations. Actually, when you see them, that they are designed things, it's just in the way it can be talked about, that's secondary to what design can do, which is kind of interesting.

25:12Yeah.

25:14Mobile phones have not missed this. The genius of Apple is that they're objects of desire, first and foremost. And it's interesting that both car design and portable, mobile device design hasn't forgotten that obligation. Yes, but it's forgotten its obligation to ethical labour practices and climate degradation. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But nonetheless, I mean, you look at an iPhone and it's a beautiful thing.

25:44Yes, and you look at a Fairphone and having had a Fairphone, it is a beautiful thing, but also it has challenges in terms of its operation. So it's how attractive and how much reach will it ever have with a broader set of users. The way that you're both talking about this project is interesting, because it seems to me to be the table itself is an object which enables multiple interpretations.

26:15Mm-hmm. So I kind of want to know how you individually have come to this. Like, what was the provenance in your own thinking towards this table? And I guess, in a reflective sort of way, does it do everything that you wanted it to? And I think there's something rather elegant, again, thinking about sort of complex teams of researchers and makers and designers.

26:48How have you negotiated the tensions? So that's three questions, really. What tensions? Well, there must be, because creative people can be fairly.

27:01I don't know. I've never encountered that myself.

27:05Yeah, well, I think in relation to what I wanted it to be, I didn't know what I wanted it to be. So that's quite interesting in itself. So in that sense, it didn't have to kind of fulfill a sort of prior image of what we were doing. And as I said before, that's very different to how it normally works, very different to say how an architect works, which is to, essentially how an architect works is to design out improbability, design out risk, and to make it as clear as possible, what the end result is going to be before you've done it.

27:40So this, I can say, turned that upside down, really. There was no clear image of what it would be.

27:51The sort of risk in the project of like, well, you know, is it going to be a thing at the end of it? Is it going to, you know, is it going to stand up? Is it going to be what we wanted it to be? But also what we wanted it to be was an evolving question, I would say. So much so. And, you know, really fascinating set of conversations, I would say. I mean, you know, sort of quite, well, it has to say maybe quite a generous sort of sense of being able to spend time actually exploring a design process, which involved going out into an orchard and staring at a field of pulled up apple trees,

28:31rubbed up apple trees and going, can we use these? And if so, which one and which bit? And then going to a chestnut coppice forest in the rain and sort of trying to work out which bit of that process and which bit of those materials would be useful. And luckily in that, you know, a lot of that, we were guided quite, you know, strongly by local works, had a sort of instinct for like, okay, well, I remember Ben saying, I just want to get like a big bag of these sort of bark shippings.

29:03I remember at the time, what's he going to do with those? Anyway, so that was really important. He had a sort of instinct for like, that's something that might be useful. So with a lot of, you know, decisions made on the hoof like that, and I can also remember being in their workshop and looking at the apple trees and go, hang on a minute, you turn them upside down. We don't have to have this conversation about how to balance that thing. It's a perfectly balanced prop, right? So I think at the same time, to talk about the process in a literal sense,

29:34we were sketching and we were sharing imagery and we were testing things. So we had a sort of mirror board and we just would paste things up and go, look, this is lovely. Here's a sort of amazing piece of stuff, which is sort of tied together in a way. It seems really similar to what we're talking about. Or it might just be, oh, I've done a sketch. This is what I was thinking about. Or Ben going, well, we've done a test of dyeing stuff using natural products. So there's a lot of things kind of coming into the design process, which is sort of very much laid bare by it and out there and connecting things.

30:10And I would say lastly, perhaps, at the same time, a conversation that was holding it all together about, you know, what we think is really successful visually and formally about how we can make the table. But that emerged, right? It wasn't, maybe it was circular at the beginning, but it wasn't made of chalk necessarily. It wasn't supported in that way. It didn't have this flan-like edge. It didn't have the faces of the moon set into it.

30:43We hadn't thought about dyes. We hadn't really thought about all these other adjacent materials like twine and string and, you know, pallet straps and all these sort of bits and bobs.

30:58Yes, there's lots in there. I mean, I think I would want to talk about the materials a bit more at some point. Why not now? We can talk about it now. Well, Charles's point about standing in chestnut woods and apple orchards. I mean, the bottom, as I said, the legs are made from upturned apple trees. And actually, they're grubbed up apple trees, which is when you sort of pull these trees out of the ground. Why is that? Because they've come to the end of their natural life. Well, this is the really interesting thing.

31:28So this is the openness that Charles was talking about to what we've been doing.

31:35So, you know, we could have contacted these two businesses. One's called Perry Court Farm and Orchard, again, in Kent, and Torrey Hill Chestnut Fencing, which are all in Kent.

Sourcing local agricultural waste

31:46So all within a sort of 40 mile. So we have an unofficial, maybe we'll make it official one day, the name for the table, which is the 40 mile table. And the reason why all these apple trees, there was a whole field or orchard of apple trees that had been pulled out and were like lying quite sad on the ground. There were roots up in the sky, up in the air. And there were a few different reasons why they'd been grubbed up. One was that economically, they're not really viable. There are other things that are more commercially viable. And that's partly to do with the particular type of apple.

32:17So there were brownie apples, which are useful for making apple crumbles, in particular, like baking apples. And those are slightly falling out of fashion as a market. There's more preference for kind of sweeter apples, for example. Also post-Brexit, so that lots of the apples in this particular orchard, but also in others across England, let's say, were sold to companies like Mr. Kipling, or I think was it either Stella Ratois, or another one of the big firms that makes cider. But those companies are based often in, for example, Dublin.

32:49So now in Europe, we're no longer part of Europe. And so financially, it just wasn't making any sense in terms of, so Brexit had a real impact on why these became waste, we're interested in how they became waste. Also, climate change means that you can now, in that particular part of Kent, they're starting to grow apricots and peaches, not even just in polytunnels. So it's really important to say that this is a thriving business, this farm and orchards, and they're making decisions in response to changing geopolitical, economic, climatic conditions.

33:20But it's really interesting to go out there, that's why these materials are available to us. The chestnut company, to a degree, they see themselves as zero waste, and that's because those materials will have different kinds of end of life. So some of it gets, if it's an irregular chestnut fencing post, it might get burnt as biomass. The bark peelings get picked up by a local farmer to be used for cattle bedding, so we apologise to the cows, we're slightly less comfortable and might sleep.

33:52But we're kind of intervening in those waste streams, I guess. But these are the things that we can say a few months down the line. We didn't know those, that that's what we were going to be focused on, when those are the kind of stories that we would tell through the table, as you say, it's sort of, it's a vehicle for doing things, but also a very objecty object. You can't deny his kind of existence when you're there.

34:15But to come back to your earlier question about where it comes from, an individual... Yeah, because as I was listening to you, I was thinking about some of the things that I thought. So it was very interesting hearing you talk, I asked you about where it comes from, and you're thinking, and you talked about where it comes from, as a series of materials. And likewise, you've reiterated that. And I guess, that's kind of nice deflection.

34:40A little bit. And you've mentioned Let's Be, and you've mentioned already some ideas around broad, right? I mean, the question that seems to me to be being demanded here is fundamentally, why harvest? To go all the way back to the beginning, you mentioned money and beauty, and things that people would naturally associate with design,

35:06and imminent crises, and so on and so forth. But harvest seems to me to be, it seems to have a lot of embedded theory, a lot of embedded ethical and philosophical positions, which neither of you spoke about. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I'm very happy to speak to those. I think that they're really intrinsic to the project and a lot of thinking that's led to it.

35:37We wrote an essay together, actually, about some of the cultural resonances of harvest as part of the triennial project. And I think for me, it's probably a lot of it is about longstanding interest in, I guess, the rural and what, as an architect, or what architecture has to say or do about rural conditions. I would say that architecture is intrinsically bound up

36:07with kind of urbanism and urbanisation. Modernism is synonymous with urbanisation. And architects, urbanists have probably neglected to think about a kind of rural in a very systematic way. There are obviously instances of it.

36:24But I think, you know, a large number, when we're talking about things like the housing crisis, for instance, you know, a lot of work has been done on how, you know, kind of high density urban housing can be improved and one can see in certain metropolitan centres like London that it has got a lot better in recent years in terms of the quality of thought and stuff. But if we look at kind of rural or sub-rural housing, we can see that the quality of that is consistently pretty poor, both in terms of design,

36:57in terms of, I don't know, choice, difference, quality of materials, fabrication and construction, but also in land use, ecology, sustainability questions, you know, contemporary sort of rural, sub-rural housing is incredibly land-hungry, very inefficient, leads to, you know, very atomised sort of communities on the edge of existing towns. Lots of friction and disquiet about that. You know, I went to a talking deal recently when I was talking about

37:27why contemporary rural housing is what it is and it was like packed out and it was just like vast amounts of people who really don't sort of understand what's happening with that. So that's a long-winded way of saying I've been really interested in kind of like what architecture and design has to say about the rural and how those things can be addressed much more positively. So that has obviously led to a kind of idea of what, you know, what's rural life, what's rural practice and of course, these things are really complicated because they, I don't believe

37:57that they're binary. I don't believe that there's no modernism in the rural and there's no rural in cities, you know, that if we go out into the countryside, really, you know, the networks of communication and infrastructure and employment and activity and things which are all obviously completely bound up in, you know, our highly organised, connected, post-industrial sort of society. So it's not a question of some mysterious other out there but going back

38:29to the essay we wrote, we were talking about, I guess, representations of the rural and in particular, we were talking about the rural harvest in those representations of rural life and we started off talking about a number of horror films because where the rural is presented is something that's kind of scary, most obviously something like The Wicker Man but also the much more recent, Midsummer, where rural practice is seen as mysterious, dangerous and interestingly the urban eye is the innocent abroad

39:00who doesn't understand rural practice and we talked about that I suppose, I think, because it's about a kind of other way of it and it's about making it a sort of exotic, mysterious, anti-modern world and of course it isn't so I think we're trying to engage in it in a sort of real-life way which involves what are the modern practices of the harvest? What does that mean? It means giant combines that are kind of like going across the countryside it means climate change bringing harvest forward like a month

39:30this summer it means dietary habits food taste consumerism supermarket kind of stronghold on distribution and stuff like that so all these things are part of the kind of understanding of contemporary rural life and for us I think harvest is something it was a kind of key moment where people sort of come together which historically was probably predicated on life or death like if the harvest fails there's nothing and now feels like

40:00quite an abstract sort of rather cutesy kind of ceremony which you might associate with your kids taking in a loaf of bread on harvest festival day but we want to invest it and look at it as something that actually really has some contemporary meaning and our relationship to where food and materials come from how they're harvested how they're distributed how they're brought to us what we know about them is all incredibly important increasingly important and harvest is a lens through which we could look at that and I think rejecting that kind

40:30of sanitisation and almost infantilisation of harvest is something that we've been thinking about so but it's not as Charles said about this actually partly what's become a kind of religious-ish once a year you take a tin of beans put it up near the altar but don't really think about the politics of that or the let's say use it in probably not the right way the kind of ethics of that and I think the politics in the sense of where things

41:01come from so I mentioned or I mentioned the Fairphone owner well Fairphone and the owner of Fairphone Baz van Arbel he spoke at one of our earlier salons called Earth and he said something he had this line that he says everything comes from the ground and I was like that's really fascinating to think of somebody who's mass-producing phones to be thinking about the groundedness of things and to make a kind of sweeping statement that we don't think enough about where things come from we're used to this kind of palette of ultra-processed

41:33materials available all year round in a kind of identikit standardised way but where are the grounds that those come from and whose hands are taking them out of the ground and so you can think of harvest as being a way to talk about to try and bring closer the kind of ground where things come from but also think about the relations between ways it could be landowners and people working on the land but also us as consumers who kind of benefit from those things so trying to bring them out a bit more it's quite an extreme object right it's where it's trying to talk very loudly

42:03about things that we don't talk very much about yeah and so for me actually the people that I'm thinking about when Charles is right in the sense that we were open to what it was going to be I should say that the harvest festival the harvest moon table and the project that we've done subsequently they have been possible thanks to some internal university funding and also a local arts organisation created Folkestone which has given us an openness to experiment that we wouldn't be able to do otherwise

42:33particularly to make a thing you know and there's a designer store and he gave up the idea I'd ever be involved in designing and making a long time ago it's kind of fascinating to be in the room with local works and Charles to be looking at those and to a degree participating in those design decisions as well but yeah the people that I'm bringing to it are people like Ruskin and Illich who are thinking about craft in a much more political way yes and Ursula Le Guin and Ursula Le Guin

43:05which I think is really interesting my wife is an enormous fan of Ursula Le Guin and when I mentioned and normally when I tell her about I'm doing a podcast with this person or that person it's like yeah tell her if I'm cooking or whatever work on but when I mentioned Ursula Le Guin and that particular paper what's it called the carrier bag the carrier bag theory of literature is right yes fiction sorry fiction yeah how does

43:37objects like the table relate to these ideas because as I understand it Le Guin's idea is essentially you can correct me if I'm wrong that history has been written from the perspective of the heroic the mammoth hunt and actually history is the history of receptacles being able to store some oats as she puts it for baby oon for tomorrow morning

44:07from today's husking of barley or wheat or whatever it is so how does this kind of play into that carrier bag that decentred anti-hierarchical anti-heroic notion yeah

Carrier bag theory and anti-heroic objects

44:26it's an anti-heroic table it looks pretty King Arthur and the Knights of the Round Table as well it does two things main character energy I think I mean there's a side answer which I think is also about our interest in fiction and literature and I've talked about Robinson Crusoe in relation to different ways of working in the past but Ursula is interesting for actually drawing on somebody else's work around gathering so that's Elizabeth Fisher who wrote this article

44:57or this book in 1980 called Women's Creation and it was a kind of alternative history in a way as you say of our existence in a material cultural way more generally and so Elizabeth Fisher who was a journalist feminist writing an alternative history of kind of anthropology in a sense it says yes the first cultural device which I think is her term was not in fact a spear but it was an artifact either made or found for gathering

45:28things so it could be a net or a pot or as you say a basket that you would put your food in or you would put your baby in and you would carry it around with you and also it means that you're thinking about textiles and rope and cord and lashings so you're bringing things together you've got to put your axe onto your axe handle in different kinds of ways so actually there's a something I want to explore in another way another time so Ursula the Gwynn as a kind of feminist science fiction writer

45:59in I think it's 87 writes this article that draws on Fisher as a way of thinking about how we tell stories more generally and that stories therefore also don't have to have this linear often let's say male protagonist hero and that's who we follow through it thinks about a gathering of all these things this carrier bag of things that exist collectively and there's a much more distributed and arguably accurate way of talking about how life works history works stories

46:30happen it's also quite a fashionable idea in architecture and design right now and I'm always alarmed by that but also conscious that that's you know for whatever reason we're all thinking about these things and so when it comes to the table I mean it's in some ways that Charles has talked about it that it itself is a gathered thing and while it does draw the eye also it does have this multiplicity to it in terms of the things that are valuable and interesting to it

47:00so you could talk aesthetically I guess around it as a kind of gathered thing that there isn't one side line through it or one focal point it's actually got all these different points in a constellation to it but really it's about what it does as a table which is about bringing people together and that idea of gathering which can sound a bit you know cute in some kind of way or a bit sweet but actually if you look at someone like even

47:30for example that you could talk about this as a kind of convivial tool for bringing people together in an equitable manner that also enables them to do what they like with it and that's the kind of open programming that it will go somewhere and we've curated a format for the gathering which itself is based on a particular feminist curatorial format called the long table which is again about openness and equal participation in something but then we sort of leave the table there as an offering in and of itself and say well what

48:01would you like to do with it how does it fit with what you do yeah I think that's really interesting I mean it goes back to something you've said consistently I think Kat which is about you know design is not just about objects but it's about the situations in the widest sense that objects allow or bring into being or express so a table is not just about design a table it's about well people sit around it on the sides of the table and the shape of the

48:33table and all those things have different meanings depending on the situation and you know interview table is very different to a picnic table not just in terms of what they're made of but in terms of the whole sort of social rituals around expectation and behaviour and things like that so definitely that's very much part of it right like it's circular and that has a particular kind of way of allowing an organisation to happen that's not hierarchical that doesn't privilege a particular position

49:03and you know it involves putting it together as a group which also kind of changes and affects the kind of atmosphere of the room or the sort of small p politics of the situation that you're an active participant rather than a passive receiver of something so all those things affect the way that things work and designed objects work and I think from my side on a sort of practitioner level I've always been equally interested in both the sort of

49:34non-material aspects of how architecture works like you know the structure of the house and how that relates to the structure of the family and how certain ideas and certain ideologies are present in the design of the house people sleep in different rooms bathrooms are private all sorts of endless territories are enacted and made and constructed and lived through in architecture and design so I'm sort of super

50:05interested in that at the same time I'm kind of interested in what things look like and what they are and I think yeah this project is sort of exploring both of those things in a way so you know when you were talking earlier I guess you're talking about origin myths of design and architecture the sphere is the supposed to be called designed object versus say the gathering bag in architecture it's like structure is the defining origin myth the tree that holds the building up unless you're Semper and Semper builds an

50:35entirely different origin myth around textiles and decoration and enclosure and you know you'll still hear people talk now routinely about decoration as a sort of well it's not mere decoration or we're not just talking about decoration so these privileging of what's more important and fundamental exist all the time we see notions and you know I'm super interested in that and I'm interested in a sort of some ways that if you people don't want to talk about it it's definitely interesting

51:06like if it's if it's something people find a bit problematic or recoil from or a bit disgusted by there's definitely something worth investigating there I mean in a way that's just you know talk about kind of facts origins it's definitely based on a certain level of repulsion for certain things and trying to investigate what that repulsion is based on you know whether it's post-modernism or you know American catch or you know something something interesting and things which people find very difficult and I'm quite interested in objects and design

51:37that doesn't try to design out that difficulty I guess it doesn't try to resolve that too well maybe that comes back to your point about yeah leaving things open to interpretation is that you know it's the lack of complete resolution means that it is a more open object somehow it's not trying to mean one thing and of course nothing means one thing you could try and make an object which everyone would agree what it meant was and I think it'd be unsuccessful

52:07but it's definitely an issue of intent around how one is trying to resolve things to kind of make a sort of clarity or perhaps a more creative ambiguity about what things are and I think that thing of creating conditions as I say to put it in another way is kind of interesting around what we're doing this idea of that kind of open programming and also kind of rescuing or problematising or critiquing the idea of like ritual

52:38so there's a prescribed way of making the table there has to be otherwise it wouldn't work and it's slightly wobbly it'd be even more wobbly if we didn't follow the way we do it but it we see those things as also setting up a kind of attitude or a set of relations with the people that you have to hold a piece of table with another person and maybe you've never met that person before and so it's starting to put you into relations that aren't better or worse we're not trying to solve

53:08all those things we've talked about in a way through that act but it means that when you're sitting around the table it's already putting you in a different kind of relationship which then the music adds another dimension too and I think for me I sort of you reflect on what these things mean as they exist and another strand of my work thinks about nightclubs and club culture and thinking about like the sort of dance floor as a space where certain things can happen that wouldn't happen otherwise and the role of music and embodied kind of existence bodies coming

53:39together in different kind of ways that's also about creating conditions when you're sort of designing those kind of spaces so there's thinking about that as well it's about habit isn't it as well isn't it how objects become habitual yeah you know you come into a room at a table everyone knows roughly what to do yeah you know you go into certain rooms and you know how to behave you walk into you know a gallery and you know maybe not to shout and to moderate your behaviours you're not interfering those are incredibly powerful things the habitual relationship we

54:11have to spaces and objects and stuff so you know sort of in some way breaking that down again is always you know kind of interesting sort of provocative thing to do I think there's also maybe something about you know not wanting to maybe sound too preachy about about it's not trying to engender a particular type of behaviour or something I think it's more that it allows for a slight kind of recalibration of what goes on

54:41when one gathers around it yeah and that recalibration is sort of different every time and it depends on who the people are but what the event is and you know even something when Anna Braithwaite performing her composition but when we did the event here and we had Paul Shenwa as a local musician making a really different thing in a really beautiful way like it was an interpretation of a piece of work that she maybe wouldn't have completely expected or but you know in a completely kind of respectful

55:12way it sort of took it on a walk and that was really lovely because I didn't know what he was going to play either none of us knew and that was an event which was completely unscripted a tiny bit of scripting asking him to come but that's it so you know all of those things chance things and kind of outcomes which are really about the social gathering it's really interesting to sort of I guess deconstruct those to use a horrible term in some way and then allow them to sort of reconstruct

55:42themselves and however it works I think it's really

Incomplete architecture and everyday use

55:46interesting this idea of completeness that we have in design and in architecture particularly and you say that because I don't I guess spend that much time thinking about other forms of design but we kind of educate towards completeness and the professional bodies award completeness yeah but our most fundamental experience

56:16of architecture is of course our house the house we live in and they are never complete I'm doing up my house for the last seven years after this I'm going to be screwing up some plasterboard which actually I love but the notion of completing the house it jumped out to me because I was racing to try and get it done and then my wife was like it's okay we've all got a bedroom we've got a table we've got a cooker

56:47and it suddenly struck me this notion of completeness in material things is almost as absurd as saying as I've completed my garden my garden is complete and it comes and goes and comes and goes and it dies back and you've got annuals and perennials and so on and so forth so to go back to the vernacular idea and go back to your table so material culture is an imminent process an incomplete ever expanding ever changing process which your table then sits within as you said

57:18Kat this idea that it could one day be returned but would have to be picked over by people it couldn't just be cast away well that's that's where we had aesthetic decisions it was a balance in the aesthetic and the ecological talking about any moments of productive creative tension was like how and it and it was interesting to think of how do you balance what we wanted to do in aesthetic terms and kind of ecological terms and also your so yes it has I mean all objects have a lifespan and we just think about how we design that into them or think of them but this one we've consciously

57:49designed that we'll look after it and then we'll put it to rest in some kind of way but also your house my house none of them are complete without the people in them as well I mean none of them Charles was talking about that link between the social structure and the kind of physical structure and certainly you see with so also I work as a curator and there's only so much you can determine how people are going to engage with what you're going to lay out spatially and how they might choose to actually walk

58:19around your exhibition of course then will they read your captions will they not or how much time will they spend with it so I think that's a kind of distributed authorship yeah I mean that's the sort of tension that exists all the way through architecture and design isn't it the sort of intention and use and the way that things change I mean housing I was recently went to a Cordia housing project in Cambridge and was writing about it for someone and you know enormously successful piece of relatively contemporary housing

58:49so successful in fact that it's got conservation status which means that people can't change very much of it and there's a sort of big debate that the people who are trying to preserve its design integrity are in conflict with people who want to live there and put up a sort of beaded curtain in their front door and there's a sort of sudden clash between its ordinary use as a house which houses

59:19are never complete as you say they're always changing always being adapted they're always a movable thing and an idea an equal and opposite force in architecture which is to sort of preserve the purity of the intention of the vision I think that's people misbehave in architecture in ways which architects get annoyed about like what's that famous thing about Mies van der Rose blinds

59:51in one of his tower blocks that only had three settings that didn't look too messy you can up down around the middle so there's always been that sort of conflict right the joke and a very easy joke architects are being megalomaniacs but I guess I don't quite know how we've strayed into this ground but it's something to do with areas of sort of control and what design is trying to do I suppose how much it's ruled by a kind of

1:00:21functionality or programming or how much it accepts the sort of messiness of real life and things being misused or differently used also responsibility may be a word as much as control I guess like we talked about the care taking for the table and also the care putting into thinking about we can't decide what relations people have but we sort of put care into thinking about what might happen because we've brought this thing into the world that's nice

1:00:53one last question there is a tone of mournfulness I think in your table

Reflecting on crisis and loss

1:01:00oh a tone of mournfulness oh I like that I don't like that I do I've always been accused of being too you know fun as far as I can tell the whole argument here is that there is a crisis there is not just a crisis in the environment but there's a crisis in modern life which has seen us divorced from our land our earth has

1:01:32divorced us from our sense of gathering that we need now instruments to cultivate new forms of gathering there is inherently as you've mentioned yourself Kat a kind of an attempt to create a framework for secular liturgy or secular ritual which is to say something has gone it was of value in some particular ways we need to recreate that there's a sense in a way of that

1:02:02modernist anxiety around not being at home in the world so a kind of homelessness in a kind of fundamental oncological sense there is in a small way I think the whole process of the table and the way that you've described it is to supplement or perhaps even stand in for the loss of domestic eating the way that in a traditional perhaps in the old days people would lay the table and they

1:02:33would wash their hands and say grace and perhaps even get dressed for dinner there's a sense of the serving and the receiving that goes on in a normal meal someone has made it someone serves it to you on your plate you give you are grateful and then there's something that you've mentioned as well this embodied quality this bodiness of sitting amongst people and these so the this is what I mean about mournfulness is that it seems to me to be an agent for

1:03:04arresting some things that you think we have lost and we are worse for it that sounds a bit too I don't buy that actually I mean I I'm very much open to interpretation this one I mean I think I mean I would be uncomfortable with a very clear cut position that you know we have strayed too far from the garden of Eden that it's entirely like society has just got sort

1:03:34of I don't think there's a point at which we've come from particularly I think you know society is simply a complicated evolving thing I don't believe really in terms like sort of natural versus artificial for instance you know natural is natural is an artificial term it's a cultural construct it's what we think it is it's not a thing that exists without us so I'm uncomfortable with kind of ideas of you know my ancient origin myths is not

1:04:05which is valid it's the desire to have origin myths I don't think any of them are true the first I don't buy the story of the first primitive hut what I buy is someone's trying to construct a kind of meaning around architecture with recourse to a sort of story about where it comes from I'm interested in the story not the validity may be myself so in some sense this is constructing other stories you know I also think if it's you know you could

1:04:35say it's it's sort of has optimism and you know conviviality and a love of you know being together and making something and you know an incredible amount of joy in that I think and when I've been in the events around it they've been quite joyful events but you know if it also carries with it for you the ideas that you know it it has a sort of lament for things then I'm comfortable with that I certainly

1:05:06don't want to refute that I'd like to ponder it but you know I think it does speak of certain things I mean when you know when Kat was talking about the life of the apple tree and the fact that the apple trees are no longer useful there is a sadness to that standing in a field of redundant apple trees that are going to be thrown away or used for you know some kind of other purpose there's no you know that's an emphatically sad sight and a sense of loss that we've lost something

1:05:37I think that idea of you know lost the connection of the land these things are really sort of complicated I think and again I find problematic an ideology that would be based around there is something to go back to I think perhaps I would put it more like where do we want to go to now and what do we want our relationship to the land to be and we can see that the products of industrialisation and globalisation have led to some pretty seismic problems which threaten our existence

1:06:08and you know those are things to address I don't think there's a clear-cut answer to that but trying to evolve ways to reflect that and especially working as you know a designer and therefore someone and an architect even more problematically in terms of that industry's contribution to those problems which is sizeable and has to evolve new ways of working and new kinds of relationships so I think there's a sort of speculation what some of those relationships could be in a social and

1:06:39a material and a design sense I mean yeah of course it's very nice to hear lots of interpretations also because we're still figuring out what we think of it let alone what anybody else quite thinks of it which will come over time I should say the table is also born of a lot of generosity in terms of those people that we talked about with like time materials energy whether it's local works Torrey Hill Perry Court or Anna Braithwaite did the music or Joanna Jones and the Dover Urban Room like it's

1:07:09kind of interesting what it amasses around it and I'm not saying that's put at the table per se but it's just very heartening to use a slightly cheesy word but I think so yes of course it does think about those discourses of loss and of a problematic to put it unlikely the kind of climate emergency but I think we were quite keen and I was quite interested in what can I we do partly as people involved in education that doesn't just stop at that point it doesn't just go oh well it's all gone

1:07:39like there's no future around this to go well actually no we can think about things that are more future facing that aren't just nostalgic or bucolic or pastiche or any of these kinds of things but think about an actual meaningful intervention in something and whether it's the church or nation or rural areas you know traditions have always been invented at different times we're just doing it in a very deliberate conscious way so I don't think there's any problem with trying to think about sort

1:08:10of inventing a new one as it were one that would be very that is is hardly compatible with existing religious structures and calendars and spaces I mean to see that in a church would be quite something for example it would it would I think I want to just ask one last

Research by design and messy processes

1:08:28question which is about this process of research by design like how does how do you as scholars and designers how do you set this up because I think when designers or design is placed within the academic context it is often post-rationalized as a it's a project in search of a question and we're really good at post- rationalizing questions how did and you've talked Charles as he said about standing in fields and looking at broken orchards

1:08:58and looking at the earth in this particular work how did that research happen where did the questions come from like did you start with a question do you sit down and say today is a good question inevitably there's no one thing is it I mean I'm learning about research I'm a practitioner I guess I've always considered myself a

1:09:28practitioner first who's always taught but more recently I've become much more engaged in research and these projects that we're describing are a series of research projects which have come directly out of that process and that conversation as opposed to post- rationalizing a piece of design and going what was the research question what was the research question that kicked it off in a way what are your aims and objectives and that's not necessarily how my

1:09:59brain works not to romanticize my brain but because it's been formed through other processes and things so I would probably never start with a single question about anything really I think the truth from my side is this has come out of a conversation I guess a series of conversations around literal conversations organising a salon while these things are talked about but you know conversations between Kat

1:10:29and I and then conversations in local works and you know things that we all bring to it from other conversations which are around a coalescence of interests I guess an emerging interest for me so you know to do you know I'm an architect probably who's come from a background where I would say you know projects have emerged more conceptually for me they're all around kind of conceptual ideas and materiality and making have come along later as to how to sort of try to realise those ideas

1:11:00this project is part of a sort of shift in that process to perhaps something that does address material questions straight away and they're intrinsic to the answer and I'm interested in that very much as a research question for myself as to how does one design and where does design come from and it's ultimately a messy business but it is evolving in my mind to be things that you know very much have material questions at their core

1:11:31as opposed you know and the last thing I'd say perhaps is I'm very against the idea that design is somehow an illustration of ideas and I think that's something that happens a lot that we might go okay especially when students design projects that involve their brief and involve their ideas and at some point they might start designing the building but I strongly believe that we think through designing and it isn't about illustrating things because if it was about illustrating things it won't bother you know what I mean like if

1:12:02you worked it all out in advance why would you make the thing so you have to the thing is the thought process so this maybe the research question for me is I had a design become a process where the questions it's asking are intrinsic to the process of design I mean I think the big change for me in terms of this this is a project but as a way of working is thinking about the shift from we organised a salon and some other events that

1:12:33were about talking about harvest and talking about people working in a certain kind of way and then we decided and I still can't remember really the conversation we had that did this that we would do the thing we would work like in a way in a harvested way and so I guess one of the questions that maybe was live at the time was well what does it mean what does it actually mean to kind of work in a harvested way but also what does it mean to actually engage in a design and research project that is about trying

1:13:03to work in a harvested way so to stand in fields and forests and yards and understand materials in a different kind of way to have hands-on sitting you know standing in these workshops playing with materials making hands-on decisions and as Charles says talking about design as a form of knowledge production and then to use I similarly see curating in the curatorial as a form of knowledge production that is using these different methods to think about the world

1:13:33around us this is probably the absolute wrong thing to say in relation to knowledge exchange impact etc but there's almost absurd sometimes to try to describe these things as entirely sort of rational linear processes right I mean probably the truth is there were long conversations and then there was a moment on Thursday afternoon at 2pm when he went look if we filled this form in we could do something and then at some point someone else went if it was a table it would be good you know it can't as Kat says can't actually really recollect those

1:14:05moments of some instantaneous decisions and some really long winded kind of exploratory conversations and then you know other and then accidents and stuff like that so yeah as researchers we have to sort of somehow unpack that into a series of what was ours you know what was the research question what's the research answer but in those terms are all sorts of you know spontaneous decisions accidents kind of emotional moments of like Christ I can't do it like that that isn't going to

1:14:35work and it's all right to talk about those things too I think you know like you know human like you don't necessarily work according to a completely kind of rational set of things we work according to like desires and fascinations and that would be amazing to cast a chalk tabletop what a ridiculous thing to do although I would say that fairly early on in those discussions it was always going to be a table and the table as the kind of

1:15:06archetypal gathering piece of furniture I think was quite embedded in it yeah I mean yeah you mentioned precedence and things like that but you know we were throwing these things around a lot like yeah whether it's Judy Chicago or whether it's like I saw this last week in London Design Festival or whatever so you know there's all sorts of things that move into the mix and that's how you work I think as a designer and as a design historian I guess which is to make connections between the

1:15:36things that you're looking at or dealing with oh yeah sewing all sorts of things into the mix literally in this case it's a wonderful point to finish on things ever so much thank you Ambrose thanks that was fun summer ends now now barbarous and beauty the stooks rise around up above what wind walks what lovely behaviour of silksack clouds has wilder willful waver meal drift moulded ever and melted across skies Gerard Manley Hopkins getting all in a tizzy

1:16:06there in the opening of his poem harrowing in harvest thank you to Kat and Charles for the conversation for hosting me in Dover and for the bread and butter see the podcast descriptions for links to them both and the project and thanks for listening